View Full Version : need help with savage model 10 barrel
italius222
04-07-11, 15:29
i kinda forgot to run a lubricated bore snake through my barrel b4 i shot 2 rounds. now im sure this isnt a huge issue, it fired 2 rounds right out of the box without lubrication in the barrel. is it possible that i affected anything like accuracy or the integrity of the barrel just by shooting those 2 rounds? no right?
MarshallDodge
04-07-11, 15:38
NO. You may want to go through a break-in procedure but there are different schools of thought on the subject.
italius222
04-07-11, 16:15
ok, whats the procedure u recommend? i thought breaking-in a firearm was as easy as just properly lubing and firing the gun
1) Buy gun
2) Clean barrel
3) Shoot 20 rnds
4) Clean barrel
5) Shoot until accuracy suffers, or you feel guilty
6) Repeat steps 4 and 5 until barrel is ruined
7) Replace barrel
8) Repeat steps 2 - 6
Why are you oiling the bore BEFORE you shoot?
That's really risky.
With a Savage barrel I would shoot one, clean, for a few shots, then move to five and do it. They are often really, really rough and doing this lets you get to the point where the barrel is "stable" faster.
Use a GOOD copper solvent, one piece rod, bore guide and broze brush. If you are using a bore snake there is little point in bothering. Just don't worry and shoot the thing.
You also need a powder/carbon solvent and a patch/jag end.
AJS, tell me how cleaning, then firing 1, then cleaning will season the bore any faster or better than just shooting 20rnds or more and THEN cleaning?
copper and carbon build up in layers. In rough barrels like Savages you are filling the machining flaws in and the projectile is riding on a later of copper. By removing the layer and letting the projectile "burnish"(for want of a better word) the bore we get to the point where the bore is smoother and more stable. It's possible we would not get to the same end point without doing this. At the very least it will take a long time.
You can investigate what goes on it the throat too if you want. Why we do not want the machining pits and flaws full of crap before they can smooth over.
You can "feel" when a barrel comes on if using proper cleaning equipment. One of my Savages has a big loose spot towards the end of the barrel which WAS where it fouled. a big long set of copper streaks. It no longer does that and hasn't been cleaned for a long time. No need. Accuracy is under .5MOA and stable.
We do need to be very clear of the difference between factory barrels and "custom" ones. This is where most go wrong. If you need to "run in" a decent barrel something is wrong with it. OTOH, I do follow a "run in" process with them JUST so I KNOW what is going on with the barrel. Is it what I paid for?
Of course, my "knowledge" only comes from real life examples, metallurgy publications, a series of real world tests that were published in a local publication many years ago and that sort of thing. not from the normal forum splatter based on one or two guys with really decent barrels.
Gale McMillan, the fellow who started McMillan stocks, etc wrote the following about barrel break in in 1999.
The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20 rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you are spending during break in
The rest of the thread is here.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=12582
He also comments on the use of copper solvent.
I agree with Orkan here.
The bottom line is that the people that have to ask about "break in" don't shoot enough to know for themselves.
They don't know that every time you clean your barrel, it will hit in a different spot afterward for a few shots. Some will take 3 shots to come back "in" while others will take 30 shots.
They don't understand that copper in your bore is REQUIRED for best accuracy. Hence why even the benchresters shoot "foulers" and "sighters" before they shoot for score.
If you doubt what I'm saying and want to argue the point, you had better produce some data to refute it. YOUR OWN DATA... not someone else's data.
and here we go. What "type" of barrel was he talking about?
a finished, quality product not what is fitted to Savages.
If all you have to support what you are saying is something out of context which you don't understand then you might consider either not commenting OR understanding what I posted ;)
Orkan, nothing you said has any bearing on what I posted.
If you do not understand what we are talking about, the difference between partially finished products and "custom" ones OR what "we" do with "running in" then take some time and learn. If you just want to go off on tangents I have little interest in replying.
What's a lead lap and why is it done?
how does fouling build up?
Does a smooth surface hold fouling like a rough one does?
Does a smoothed bore tend to be more "stable"?
No real point in ranting and asking me to "prove" something until you understand what was just said.
Ok hot shot...
How many barrels have you gone through?
Show me your log book pages that illustrate cleaning cycles vs round count.
Show me where you are consistently getting cold bore MOA hits at range with a spotless bore, custom or otherwise.
While you may THINK you know what is happening at the microscopic level in the bore after every shot, the truth of the matter is that it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. You either hit your target or you don't. Neither YOU, nor anyone else is going to be able to convince me that this "shoot one clean one" regimen of barrel break in you or any of the other cleaning nazi's subscribe to makes one damn bit of difference UNTIL THEY SHOW ME THE DATA PROVING IT.
I did the work for myself. I took two rem700 sps tacticals in 308. One of them I did the cleaning regimen you talk about. The other, I cleaned before firing, and then just shot with it. Both guns were 3/4 MOA out of the box.
The one I just shot until accuracy suffered, would open up to about 1.5MOA after 250-300rnds. Then I cleaned it and it went back down to 3/4moa. Around 800rnds or so, both of them would run 1/2 moa or a little better.
The other one I cleaned every time I took it out. I started noticing some things. First thing was every time I took it out, it had to be re-zeroed as it would take around 10 shots to foul in again. Second thing I noticed is that it would have flyers about 1 to 2 shots out of the first 20 or so after the 10 shot fouling. Otherwise, accuracy always stayed about 3/4 to 1 moa on this rifle. Yet that didn't matter because I couldn't just pick it up and make a hit. I had to screw with it every time. Gee so fun. Maybe for a safe queen that some idiot shots 5 times a year.
Neither rifle displayed any different accuracy with equal round counts. I wish to hell I was keeping log books at that time in my life, so I could prove it to know-it-all's like yourself. Be that as it may, I did the work myself, and I KNOW not because I read it... but because I did it.
My krieger's will sometimes go 500rnds before they need to be cleaned. Less in a 22-250 of course, but the point is that this cleaning regimen crap is exactly that... CRAP.
Your barrel will ether be good, or it will be bad. Either way, after X number of rounds down the barrel REGARDLESS OF YOUR CLEANING REGIMEN, it will be as broke in as it can be, and as accurate as it can be.
Everything out of your mouth is an absolute AJS. I wish I could shoot where you shoot, where these "absolute's" of the shooting world seem to exist.
Nicely put Orkan.
I had the same experience with my SPS Tac. It takes at least 15 foulers before it starts to group, and starts opening up after around 200 rounds. Cleaning regimens, and barrel break in procedures are pure interweb crap.
When I started shooting, I bought into the "barrel break-in" concept. It sounds so appealing, it's like magic: shoot one, clean one, click your heals together 3 times, turn around, and voila! You've got an accurate gun.
So much easier to spend hours and threads arguing about the best superstitious cleaning and break-in procedure, when the REAL work is to get your ass down on the firing line and do some shooting.
Ok hot shot...
Feel free to answer the questions I posted ;)
Show me where you are consistently getting cold bore MOA hits at range with a spotless bore, custom or otherwise.
Which is not at all relevant to what we are discussing. Getting a partly finished bore to a stable state. So that my 50th and 300th shot are in the same place. Day after day.
While you may THINK you know what is happening at the microscopic level in the bore after every shot,
*I* do know and what *I* said was factual. Deal with it. I understand what you are saying and it's really got nothing to do with what I said.
the truth of the matter is that it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. You either hit your target or you don't.
Which really has NOTHING to do with what we were talking about. We want a bore that is "stable". This tends to happen much faster IF you know what you are doing.
Neither YOU, nor anyone else is going to be able to convince me that this "shoot one clean one" regimen of barrel break in you or any of the other cleaning nazi's subscribe to makes one damn bit of difference UNTIL THEY SHOW ME THE DATA PROVING IT.
I asked you some simple questions. Those questions throw some light on things IF you had bothered to think about it. You started with a closed mind and that's how you want it. Fine, continue not to understand what is said and rant off topic nonsense in response.
The data IS there IF you bother to spend time understanding what goes on. Why is it my problem if you don't?
Everything out of your mouth is an absolute AJS. I wish I could shoot where you shoot, where these "absolute's" of the shooting world seem to exist.
I tend not to post crap. Where I don't know I ask. You will also notice I really don't post all that often. This is why.
If you don't understand the subject (which you don't) then don't comment on it.
In many cases where a "custom" barrel will not stop fouling the MFR will take it back and lap it. Why? What are they after?
(spend some time thinking about this)
We want a bore that is smooth and stable. Which keeps shooting the same sized groups for a long time. In many cases this happens faster if you follow a process at the start. Buy a decent barrel and THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE!
Ranting about clean bore accuracy and POI change is irrelevant.
Out of interest, have you never seen a carbon ring raise pressure?
Never had strips of fouling out of a barrel?
Arguing that a smooth bore is not better for stable accuracy is idiotic.
Arguing that "burnishing" is not productive in helping this enviroment happen is silly.
Arguing that excessive copper does not get in the way of this process is crazy.
Those at the extreme ends of this discussion are just as bad as each other. Both are blinded by what they want to think without understand what is being said. I do what needs to be done. Each barrel is different and I can easily tell when they "come on".
I see, if someone disagrees with you, they are too stupid to understand eh?
I've read ever post you've made here, and your posts REEK of someone that hasn't gained the knowledge for themselves, but probably keeps the company of some people that might have. Keep regurgitating information long enough and I'm sure some people might buy that you have something to offer that can't be gleaned elsewhere.
Break in is bullshit. End of story. I've not seen it help, nor hurt, in any instance through the last 20 years of my life. I do know one thing is for certain however, and that is by doing the bullshit break-in procedures, you shoot more meaningless foulers and thus shoot more rounds than is necessary. The only CERTAINTY in all of this is that barrel manufacturers like this "break in" crap very much. The more idiots they can get sold on "break in" the more barrels they can sell.
Why are you oiling the bore BEFORE you shoot?
"Wont that make the bullets come out quicker?" Pusher from Sgt York.
If it was a high dollar match grade 1200 meter barrel it might possible effect it somewhere along the lines but it doesn't hurt to shoot a savage.
Proper Barrel Break-in Procedure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRRahHX9Zkg
Suwannee Tim
04-10-11, 07:36
Ok hot shot......Maybe for a safe queen that some idiot shots 5 times a year.....
This is how pissing matches get started.
.....If you don't understand the subject (which you don't) then don't comment on it....
AJS takes the bait......
I see, if someone disagrees with you, they are too stupid to understand eh?....
And the pissing match is on!
What we need is an "Official "You Are A(n) (insert personal insult here)"" thread. When someone places a post with a snarky personal remark a moderator would cut the post from the original thread and paste it to the "Official "You Are A(n) (insert personal insult here)"" thread. There would be two advantages to this scheme. It would keep the threads from being clogged with personal remarks and it would allow us to amuse ourselves by reading the snarky stuff all in one place.
This is how pissing matches get started.
AJS takes the bait......
And the pissing match is on!
What we need is an "Official "You Are A(n) (insert personal insult here)"" thread. When someone places a post with a snarky personal remark a moderator would cut the post from the original thread and paste it to the "Official "You Are A(n) (insert personal insult here)"" thread. There would be two advantages to this scheme. It would keep the threads from being clogged with personal remarks and it would allow us to amuse ourselves by reading the snarky stuff all in one place.
if you are ever in houston, im buying you a beer.
Tim, can there be a section for posts that have nothing to do with the topic as well?
Suwannee Tim
04-10-11, 15:27
Tim, can there be a section for posts that have nothing to do with the topic as well?
Great idea orkan! We've already got such a section, General Discussion. I'm going to ask the group what they think about my suggestion.
I'm going to ask the group what they think about my suggestion.
Good, then perhaps you can take the advice being given in that thread to the tune of your idea is crap.
If you can't take a little heated discussion, maybe you need to grow up a bit. People being passionate about their beliefs is what makes this country great. It gets talked out, and all parties involved are stronger as a result.
So please do keep your off-topic ramblings in the general conversation section. While entertaining... it doesn't appear to fit in this thread. This is the last I'll say on it. I await your cleverly worded rebuttal, which I'll read... and then ignore.
Suwannee Tim
04-10-11, 21:12
It is you that is off topic orkan, the topic being rifle barrels, not me and not AJS. The problem with the heated discussion is that it rapidly spirals down to a pissing match between two or a few willing participants, others who are not interested in the personal dispute leave in dismay or disgust. What began as an interesting and potentially informative discussion is rendered worthless by all this stuff. I remind you that this is a technical forum, not a venue for personal attacks. I come here to learn but I don't have the time or the patience to wade through page after page of personal observations to learn something.
It occurs to me that I have learned a lot from my crappy ideas, watching them fail, having people explain to me why they are crappy or figuring it out for myself. I have actually turned some crappy ideas into pretty good successes but I digress. If you would, explain to me why my idea is crappy, in the other thread of course. Which I now notice is closed. PM me with your explanation if you would.
I come here to learn
Learning, by talking instead of listening? Interesting.
Rifle break in is a myth perpetuated by new shooters and barrel manufacturers. Anyone who has a round count above a couple hundred rounds a year knows this to be true.
People like to talk about it as if there is some discussion to be had about it. There isn't. Know why? People like me have been doing the testing for ourselves for quite some time.
The results always come up the same: No evident benefit, for two reasons I suspect.
1) Whatever minuscule gains are to be had are not evident in real world shooting, and would need a railgun and indoor testing facility to detect.
2) In the long list of variables that need to be eliminated, the barrel break in procedure isn't significant enough to matter.
There is my opinion, vested in personal first hand experience. Take it. Leave it. Doesn't much matter, but let me ask a question pertaining to what DOES seem to matter to you:
Do YOU have anything to offer in regard to the topic of rifle barrels and their break in? Please share it if you do, else stop derailing the thread.
I see, if someone disagrees with you, they are too stupid to understand eh?
the only "stupid" people are those who cannot learn.
I've read ever post you've made here, and your posts REEK of someone that hasn't gained the knowledge for themselves, but probably keeps the company of some people that might have. Keep regurgitating information long enough and I'm sure some people might buy that you have something to offer that can't be gleaned elsewhere.
If you have any factual information or are able to correct anything I say please do so. Childish and idiotic insults and attacks are a waste of my time and yours.
Break in is bullshit.
http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/barrel_fouling.htm
Are they and the many others who have said what I said AND supported it full of shit?
End of story. I've not seen it help, nor hurt, in any instance through the last 20 years of my life. I do know one thing is for certain however, and that is by doing the bullshit break-in procedures, you shoot more meaningless foulers and thus shoot more rounds than is necessary. The only CERTAINTY in all of this is that barrel manufacturers like this "break in" crap very much. The more idiots they can get sold on "break in" the more barrels they can sell.
You have demonstrated that you do not understand the subject and do not wish to. You are unable to answer anything I have asked which shows (again) what little you know OR even that you cannot grasp what I have actually said. None of this is my problem and I will continue to post factual information. If you don't like it you can simply rant and rave so those of us who do have an idea get a really good laugh.
**Edit** Read that final post which is again amazing in it's ignorance.
Orkan, you act in an overly agressive manner to cover up what you don't understand and in the end it comes down to "trust me, I know". The problem with this is that you demonstrate you do not understand the mechanisms we are talking about, what goes on with a barrel or how things work.
Many of us DO know, have seen and there is sufficent information out there that shows this. What you have seen comes down to a few things, equipment choice, ego getting in the way of learning, not understanding what you are seeing so that even if it occurred you wouldn't understand what you just saw and a few things I can't mention without feeling like I am insulting you and not simply being accurate.
The fact is, there is something here. It is supported. You could not understand what goes on in a barrel and not see this.
Spend some time learning, accept you really don't understand what has been said to you or at the very least give your opinion without the silly agressive behaviour.
This thread, which is carefully researched and based on the opinions of some expert rifle builders, suggests that excessive cleaning (of the type that you do during shoot-and-clean "break-in" procedures) really does more harm than good. Instead, the recommendation is simply that you shoot some rounds through the barrel to "burnish" it properly, then follow normal cleaning procedures. In short (my rendition): shooting is what breaks in a new barrel. Amazing.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1562996&page=all
**I've corrected what I said**
Has ANYONE in this thread said that incorrect cleaning will not damage a barrel? Has anyone anywhere said this?
So how is this relevant?
Correct cleaning does no damage. Simple as that.
The source you used more often than not use skills and ideas passed on by the accuracy guys. It filters down from them.
Many of the "new" ideas the tactical part of the community use come from them. I KNOW some of the "top" guys DIRECTLY interface with the accuracy guys to gain skills.
So we use the source or get it second, third hand?
That type of forum is full of rock shooters, "hit stuff" and 2MOA guys who follow the latest and greatest fashion.
XX tells me bla bla to bla bla it is and don't argue!
or not? There ARE guys who know stuff. The problem is that in many cases the morons have chased them away (arguing over factual information because they don't understand is one example), what they say is misunderstood or has to be dumbed down so much of it is useless.
Maybe you, with your great understanding can answer the questions I asked Orkan? or point me to a post on another forum which does?
OTOH, you could simply read what I said, start understanding it and learn something.
I don't have a lot of time to waste on this. I really don't.
New factory barrels ARE "rough" and in many cases will layer fouling up and not become stable (Big point here if any of you want to deal with it, Orkan certainly didn't) for a long time (in some cases never).
By following a process which is individual to each barrel you should end up with a more stable and "smoother" bore allowing more shots between cleaning. In some cases it will be bad enough that it won't help, at least by doing this you get to know your barrel.
As simple as I can make it with limited time. My other posts contain enough for people to investigate and think IF they decide thinking is a worthwhile process for them.
Not everyone is suited to doing this, some just need to folllow along and do what they are told without really understanding it.
**I've corrected what I said**
Has ANYONE in this thread said that incorrect cleaning will not damage a barrel? Has anyone anywhere said this?
Bro, there' s no need to get defensive, towards me at least. I'm not attacking you, just discussing the issue. I believe the guys in the cited article believe that, BY DEFINITION (in their opinion, obviously), the "shoot one-clean one" method qualifies as excessive, and therefore incorrect, cleaning. I cited the article as an example of some relatively expert level folks that feel this type of break-in does more harm than good. That's it. And yes, I have personally broken in many rifles over 30 years of shooting, and have tried various break-in methods, and have yet to see that these very fastidious methods like shooting a certain number, then cleaning each time, have ANY impact at all. I'm certainly willing to have my mind changed, if there's hard evidence forthcoming. I think the burden of proof must be on those who insist that these more complex/involved types of break-in methods are NECESSARY, because to this point, I haven't seen that they make any significant difference. Again, I'm willing to admit I could be wrong, but I sure haven't observed it to date.
You must bow down to the almighty AJS maximus! rofl.
You keep thinking I don't understand what you say. Quite the contrary. I understand fully.
The difference is that I know it MAKES NO DIFFERENCE in the accuracy achieved. You seem to think that following your regimen makes the barrel smoother than it would get if you didn't do it like you say. You are wrong.
You seem to think that it will thereby be more accurate by doing this funky cleaning method. Again you are wrong.
You seem to think that you will gain more shots before having to clean... and again you are wrong.
The above remains true whether talking about a custom $800 barrel or a remington/savage factory barrel. Everything you describe takes place regardless of whether you clean down to bare metal after every shot, or every 5 shots, or every 20 shots. It makes no difference in accuracy, nor does it make any difference in how many rounds one can fire before cleaning.
This "fire lapping" as you are struggling to describe it, happens naturally as you shoot. I would argue that NOT doing a barrel break in, and doing it my way instead would result in the bore being fire lapped to a smooth condition SOONER than your method.
Know why? Because people listening to you are going to spend far more time cleaning. People listening to me are going to spend far more time shooting, AND they will get more use out of their barrel from not wasting rounds sending "foulers" every time they go out with a clean barrel.
Two rifles, same make and manufacturer, one babied and kept clean and done the break in like you suggest. The other, treated like a bastard and just taken out and shot. Both rifles exhibited the same accuracy capability. So if its irrelevant in accuracy, why do all the extra cleaning work?
This "you don't understand what I'm saying" card you keep playing is borderline ridiculous at this point. I understand full well what you are saying, and simply have the personal experience that directly refutes your argument. I don't rely on what is said on forums to dictate what is fact or fiction. So while you keep trying to convince people that I don't understand what is being said, I'll simply say that I don't care if you understand or don't understand. The proof is on the targets, and I did the work for myself and saw the results. I didn't hear it from a guy, or read it on a forum or magazine. I bought two identical rifles then spent the money and time required to KNOW.
People reading this thread have a choice:
1) Believe AJS in that elaborate barrel break-in procedures will somehow improve accuracy or attain a result that wouldn't be achieved any other way.
2) Believe me, in that barrel break-in procedures are a waste of time that could be spent shooting... to achieve the same result.
I believe people are smart enough to make up their own mind. In the end, each shooter needs to decide what is important to them and run with it. Only after they have committed to a course of action and seen the results will they truly have the knowledge, one way or the other.
Orkan, if you have anything factual to add please do so.
So far you have avoided answering any questions and simply come back with agression and "trust me, *I* know". The problem is you have demonstrated you do not know or understand.
At no stage have I been talking about the process known are "fire lapping" (I guess you can't tell any difference at your knowledge level.).
What I said is clear and is backed up.
What I am saying is supported, it's not just what I have seen. It's what is FACTUALLY supported and proven.
It's not my "opinion". It's fact and you could go and find out IF you wanted to. But you don't. This is why you were unable to answer what I asked you. Either you answer incorrectly and look like a bigger fool or you answer correctly and put holes in your own opinion.
so you ignore it and start making misrepresenting what I said.
Funny stuff. You are arguing that a smoother barrel is not more stable than a rough one and that having layer on layer of copper and carbon does not interfere with burnishing. That's idiotic. Go ask one of your "sources" and see if they think that's the case.
Using agression to cover your lack of knowledge waste times. Come back with a factual discussion or step out. I guess you can save face by simply stating YOU cannot see any difference ;)
That's a good out for you. I'm sure those that don't know the subject might not understand what this means
Orkan, what was the "process" which I and many others who "know" follow? Do you know much about engines? or metal to metal surface interfaces? Maybe there is a way I can explain this to you so you grasp what I have actually said?
Two rifles, same make and manufacturer, one babied and kept clean and done the break in like you suggest. The other, treated like a bastard and just taken out and shot. Both rifles exhibited the same accuracy capability. So if its irrelevant in accuracy, why do all the extra cleaning work?
You know, I really think this shows what I am saying to you.
EACH barrel IS different. Every single one.
You do ONLY what needs to be done to get the best out of each one.
Following a set process is idiotic. You WILL "feel" when the barrel has "come on". you will see it. It's about getting to a stable end result. It's about having a barrel with does not cause pressure issues due to coppering or goes more shots between cleaning.
It seems to me you still don't grasp what I really said and assumed I am saying the same thing as guys who don't understand but in a different way to you. you are at one end, they are at the other. Both of you are wrong because you don't grasp the subject.
Are http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/barrel_fouling.htm
and the many, many others who understand this all talking crap? The accuracy guys? They don't know anything because YOU and your few "sources" see it differently?
Guys who see opening of a group to be in the tens, not the .5MOA like you do?
Couldn't it just be your limitations mean YOU cannot see it?
Your isolated "testing" which is likely done without any understanding didn't show what you THOUGHT you were looking for?
come on....
This whole debate is stupid. Personally, I don't perform and special routine. I buy quality barrels and they shoot amazing right from the start.
That said, it someone wants to engage in some voodoo break in ritual where they shoot/clean/splatter chicken blood around what does it matter to me? If it makes them feel better then it's served its purpose for them.
That said, it someone wants to engage in some voodoo break in ritual where they shoot/clean/splatter chicken blood around what does it matter to me? If it makes them feel better then it's served its purpose for them.
I agree, but can't seem to keep my mouth shut when I see someone blabbing about the benefits of said ritual on a forum like this. :)
This whole debate is stupid.
What debate? No one who is saying you gain nothing from it can provide any factual information. The people who understand are show how and why.
Personally, I don't perform and special routine. I buy quality barrels and they shoot amazing right from the start.
*DING DING* and here is the difference ;) Even though most of the barrel makers recommend a FEW shots through to smooth other the throat and barrel your product is already FAR better and in many cases will be stable from the start.
That said, it someone wants to engage in some voodoo break in ritual where they shoot/clean/splatter chicken blood around what does it matter to me? If it makes them feel better then it's served its purpose for them.
Why is it "voodoo"?
What's this based on? Not the barrels makers. Not an understanding of how a new barrel acts. Not how they foul. Not of WHY a process of some sort it followed.
So what's it based on if it's not factual?
I agree, but can't seem to keep my mouth shut when I see someone blabbing about the benefits of said ritual on a forum like this. :)
Put up or shut up ;)
You started this by going off halfcocked ranting with agression and a total lack of understanding on what was really said here.
Front up and show us how much you really know by answering some questions. What "ritual" was spoken of here? That most of the guys who know recommend running a few round (as many as YOUR barrel needs) through it? Tell us WHY this does nothing.
Something you have once again failed to do.
come one, if you have something to teach me do so. Unlike some *I* am happy to learn. If you know more than I do show me, show the barrel makers and accuracy guys, show me why my experience (doing things with an UNDERSTANDING) produces results yet yours (with limited UNDERSTANDING) does not.
Orkan, you are all talk and fluff. You can't even come back with ANY factual information, can't answer ANY question about the subject.
What a joke!
Why is it "voodoo"?
What's this based on? Not the barrels makers. Not an understanding of how a new barrel acts. Not how they foul. Not of WHY a process of some sort it followed.
So what's it based on if it's not factual?
Like I said, I'm not going to debate this. Do whatever you want that makes you feel better, it doesn't effect me.
Ok, lets get down to it. Explain this break-in procedure of yours to me AJS - step by step, and precisely how it is going to affect the accuracy of my barrel. For the sake of this question, say we are talking about a bone stock rem700 sps tactical with a 20" barrel in 308win.
Ok, lets get down to it. Explain this break-in procedure of yours to me AJS - step by step, and precisely how it is going to affect the accuracy of my barrel. For the sake of this question, say we are talking about a bone stock rem700 sps tactical with a 20" barrel in 308win.
no mate, you have been asked mutiple questions mutiple times and come back with NOTHING in reply which has any relevance to what has ACTUALLY been said. What you have posted shows you know nothing of the subject and can't even grasp what was said. All of this is typical for you in addition to the agression and attacks you are well known for and use to cover what little you know.
I'm hoping the few who don't know how you act can at the very least see what you don't know and start treating your "information" in the manner it should be.
Suwannee Tim
04-16-11, 12:01
As I predicted.....
I'm not your mate.
When asked define your procedure exactly so all could understand exactly what you were saying... you recoil, predictably. You are championing a method, and claiming all who disagree don't understand, yet cannot describe the method and use any facts to disarm our argument. Instead you spout about generalities and play the "if I have to explain it you wouldn't understand" card.
I've participated in hundreds of threads on this exact topic, and those proposing that break-in works are always dismantled in exactly the same way. None of them can even agree on what the procedure is, and when asked to spell it out... they do exactly as you have both done, attack from the side and refuse to describe in detail what you do and how you claim it helps, and then provide proof that it helps. The proof never exists, and the people that disagree with you are always portrayed as too stupid to understand.
While you are cleaning, I'll be shooting. So go ahead and peddle your methods. Since the beginning of time there have been snake oil salesmen and magic potion dealers. There has always been a small percentage of the population that falls for anything.
I take solace in the fact that most people that read this thread will either do the work for themselves to come to same conclusion I have, or simply through logic of action know that what I'm saying is true because it can be proven to be true.
You have no first hand knowledge of what you speak. You read something, and it made sense to you, so you adopt it as your own belief. Continue on here in this thread knowing that I'm not the only one that knows this.
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