View Full Version : gun investments
As i become more consumed with the direction our country is headed i cant help but wonder about buying guns for a long term investment. Maybe im way off here and maybe its not a good idea but i can't see the price of "black rifles" (negative tags put on these platforms) over the long term loosing value.
Everyone talks about buying gold, silver, or other precious metals, but i cant help but think we will see a 10%-50% or more increase on these rifles in the next decade or two. As liberal and pansy-assed as the country is turning, it seems as if investing in firearms would be more safe than gold and such since it is at an all-time high? True or False?
And all this is assuming, of course, that you wouldnt have a problem selling them.
Terlingueno
04-08-11, 20:46
I don't particularly want to be someone selling guns, if times get difficult, if that makes sense
thats why i brought this up...explain your reasons why? Is it breaking the law to sell off a personal stash?
Is it breaking the law to sell off a personal stash?
A law could be passed to make that so before you were able to have a good return on investment. Who knows?
I am still fairly young and am looking to invest in firearms that I want but may pay a much higher price for in the future, or not be able to buy at all.
Member SteyrAug wrote an excellent article about this that I read recently. I would definitely take a look at it.
Terlingueno
04-08-11, 20:55
No, not really breaking the law, unless you are acting like a business. I just think, if things get really tough, that not advertising the fact that you have a significant number of weapons would be a good idea from a personal safety standpoint.
I've wondered the same things myself. Some prices have gone up on weapons, but not as much as I would have expected. For example, the NFA area seems to have been pretty stagnant for several years now. Guns are going for what they did 6 or 7 years ago.
Many have said guns and gold are the ways to go, when the economy gets bad. It seems to me gold is about topped out, unless we have the dollar totally tank. Some are predicting that, but if it doesn't, buying gold now wouldn't be much of an investment. If and when the economy truly gets better, the price of gold will drop as fast as it went up.
So, that leaves guns. I would concentrate on higher quality weapons, regardless of what type you are thinking about. Quality usually means more expensive. And I would make sure they were in a caliber that will be around if things aren't so good. 5.56, 7.62X39 and 9mm come to mind. If you stockpile some ammo, maybe this won't be so much of an issue.
As for the outcome for our country, pray hard.
hypothetically speaking...lets say i have a friend (wink) who has a friend that he purchases guns from. this friend of a friend may have a vaulted in garage with more firearms than you could think of...in the millions of dollars invested. now if he sells these firearms in his close community to people he trusts, is that wrong or illegal or risky? and im sure he would be turning some kind of profit? seems illegal...just wondering if that would be legal and profitable?
just seems like you are putting value on to something actual instead of paper that has the possibility of losing all of its value??
Terlingueno
04-08-11, 20:59
hypothetically speaking...lets say i have a friend (wink) who has a friend that he purchases guns from. this friend of a friend may have a vaulted in garage with more firearms than you could think of...in the millions of dollars invested. now if he sells these firearms in his close community to people he trusts, is that wrong or illegal or risky? and im sure he would be turning some kind of profit? seems illegal...just wondering if that would be legal and profitable?
just seems like you are putting value on to something actual instead of paper that has the possibility of losing all of its value??
I'll pass. But you do what you think is good for you.
i feel like this is wrong to talk about...or maybe its the thing people keep hush hush about because it is illegal? i guess im asking for someone to tell me if doing this is illegal. back a couple of months ago when i was getting my first AR i was looking into the laws about buying a used rifle from a friend and as long as sold in state the law said it was fine...of course as a seller it would be important to get a bill of sale to show that you are free from the gun.
hypothetically speaking...lets say i have a friend (wink) who has a friend that he purchases guns from. this friend of a friend may have a vaulted in garage with more firearms than you could think of...in the millions of dollars invested. now if he sells these firearms in his close community to people he trusts, is that wrong or illegal or risky? and im sure he would be turning some kind of profit? seems illegal...just wondering if that would be legal and profitable?
just seems like you are putting value on to something actual instead of paper that has the possibility of losing all of its value??
There may be an annual amount of sales (like auto sales) that constitutes the need for a license (FFL). I'm not sure. If you live in a state that doesn't prohibit person to person sales, I don't see how this would be illegal.
hypothetically speaking...lets say i have a friend (wink) who has a friend that he purchases guns from. this friend of a friend may have a vaulted in garage with more firearms than you could think of...in the millions of dollars invested. now if he sells these firearms in his close community to people he trusts, is that wrong or illegal or risky? and im sure he would be turning some kind of profit? seems illegal...just wondering if that would be legal and profitable?
just seems like you are putting value on to something actual instead of paper that has the possibility of losing all of its value??
Buying with the intent to receive money in/as compensation, without holding an FFL, is straw-purchasing and a Federal offense.
It's one thing to buy a gun, try it, get bored with it/dislike it/whatever and then sell it - that's legal as you're selling your own property. It's completely another where you buy guns with the intent to sell them, i.e. you're buying the guns for other people with the intent of making money. If word got out that you were "selling many, many rifles," don't think for one second the ATF wouldn't come find you (and all the evidence they need) that you were running a gun store of sorts without an FFL.
Buying with the intent to receive money in/as compensation, without holding an FFL, is straw-purchasing and a Federal offense.
Incorrect.
First things first, a straw purchase is only a straw purchase if you are buying a firearm for a person who is ineligible to own firearms. You can buy a dozen guns and give them away as Christmas presents because in that instance YOU ARE THE ACTUAL PURCHASER. It only becomes a straw purchase if you give one to somebody who can not lawfully possess a firearm. ATF would prefer everyone to believe otherwise and sadly they have been very successful. Once that is the perception commonly held by everyone then they can safely pass a law that actually says you can't do it.
Secondly, there is nothing about "buying with intent to receive compensation." You guys make me incredibly ****ing sad, it's as if FOPA never existed save for banning registration of domestic machine guns. PRIOR to FOPA 86 that was true, and that is exactly why the Firearm Owners Protection Act was so damn important.
It was a common sting for ATF to set up a gunshow, sell new guns cheap and then solicit those customers to sell their purchase to undercover buyers who offered them a higher price. So basically they sell a gun for $250 and then an undercover agent offers the guy $350 for the same gun. Knowing he can go right back and get another for $250 (thus making $100) a lot of guys jumped on it and were promptly arrested for dealing firearms without a license. And this is why every serious collector in the 80s had a FFL to protect themselves.
What FOPA specifically said was that a private individual who makes a favorable trade or sale out of his private collection is just that, a private collector. They didn't need to be a FFL unless they were actually a firearms dealer. And that is a good thing considering that within 10 years it was almost impossible for the average gun collector to get a FFL.
So what is the difference between a gun collector who buys and sells 12 guns in a month and a firearms dealer who buys and sells 12 guns in the month? That is the magic question that is the difference between being arrested and not being arrested. Currently the criteria is to be "engaged in business for profit." Unfortunately this is pretty arbitrary and largely at the discretion of ATF and what they "believe" you are doing. Certainly there are serious collectors who buy, sell and trade that many guns in a week let alone a month, and obviously they are doctors or lawyers so they aren't really engaged in business for profit, they are just serious collectors.
At the same time there are guys who buy and sell a one gun a month who actually ARE engaged in business for profit and actually ARE unlicensed gun dealers. Contrary to popular belief there is no "X quantity" of guns that makes the difference between a dealer and a non dealer in firearms. It all comes down to IF ATF determines you are "engaged in business for profit."
So what separated the gun collector who buys a gun, sells it then buys another he likes, the speculator who buys guns with the hope that they will increase in value so that he can sell them later, and the actual dealer who buys and sells guns for his livelihood? Nothing but intent and that can be hard to prove one way or the other and it is mostly a matter of what ATF believes the intent is.
But the bottom line, if a private individual IS NOT running a business, he should be protected by FOPA. Otherwise you'd be able to arrest every gun forum member who ever sold a gun in an EE or on Gunbroker because the vast majority of them are selling those guns for more than they paid for them.
Sadly the perception here is mostly incorrect and it's almost like FOPA never happened. And once the perception is accepted by most everyone it too will certainly become an actual law.
hypothetically speaking...lets say i have a friend (wink) who has a friend that he purchases guns from. this friend of a friend may have a vaulted in garage with more firearms than you could think of...in the millions of dollars invested. now if he sells these firearms in his close community to people he trusts, is that wrong or illegal or risky? and im sure he would be turning some kind of profit? seems illegal...just wondering if that would be legal and profitable?
just seems like you are putting value on to something actual instead of paper that has the possibility of losing all of its value??
There is no law saying an eligible gun owner may not buy or sells guns from his private collection. There is no magic "quantity" that makes you suddenly become a dealer. A private collector may acquire and sell 100 guns lawfully and a person may buy and sell a single firearm and be arrested for being an unlicensed dealer.
The criteria used by ATF to determine who is a firearms dealer is "engaged in business for profit."
The problem is this can be rather arbitrary and mostly comes down to perceived intent. So if you have a day job and are simply a serious collector who makes favorable trades and buys and sells when the timing is to your advantage that is one thing. If you have a website, a yellow pages ad and Jim's Guns painted on your truck, well that is probably another thing.
Really what it comes down to is this, are you actually engaging in business for profit? Can you prove/demonstrate that you aren't? And then conduct yourself accordingly.
Thanks for posting this.
Incorrect.
First things first, a straw purchase is only a straw purchase if you are buying a firearm for a person who is ineligible to own firearms. You can buy a dozen guns and give them away as Christmas presents because in that instance YOU ARE THE ACTUAL PURCHASER. It only becomes a straw purchase if you give one to somebody who can not lawfully possess a firearm. ATF would prefer everyone to believe otherwise and sadly they have been very successful. Once that is the perception commonly held by everyone then they can safely pass a law that actually says you can't do it.
Secondly, there is nothing about "buying with intent to receive compensation." You guys make me incredibly ****ing sad, it's as if FOPA never existed save for banning registration of domestic machine guns. PRIOR to FOPA 86 that was true, and that is exactly why the Firearm Owners Protection Act was so damn important.
It was a common sting for ATF to set up a gunshow, sell new guns cheap and then solicit those customers to sell their purchase to undercover buyers who offered them a higher price. So basically they sell a gun for $250 and then an undercover agent offers the guy $350 for the same gun. Knowing he can go right back and get another for $250 (thus making $100) a lot of guys jumped on it and were promptly arrested for dealing firearms without a license. And this is why every serious collector in the 80s had a FFL to protect themselves.
What FOPA specifically said was that a private individual who makes a favorable trade or sale out of his private collection is just that, a private collector. They didn't need to be a FFL unless they were actually a firearms dealer. And that is a good thing considering that within 10 years it was almost impossible for the average gun collector to get a FFL.
So what is the difference between a gun collector who buys and sells 12 guns in a month and a firearms dealer who buys and sells 12 guns in the month? That is the magic question that is the difference between being arrested and not being arrested. Currently the criteria is to be "engaged in business for profit." Unfortunately this is pretty arbitrary and largely at the discretion of ATF and what they "believe" you are doing. Certainly there are serious collectors who buy, sell and trade that many guns in a week let alone a month, and obviously they are doctors or lawyers so they aren't really engaged in business for profit, they are just serious collectors.
At the same time there are guys who buy and sell a one gun a month who actually ARE engaged in business for profit and actually ARE unlicensed gun dealers. Contrary to popular belief there is no "X quantity" of guns that makes the difference between a dealer and a non dealer in firearms. It all comes down to IF ATF determines you are "engaged in business for profit."
So what separated the gun collector who buys a gun, sells it then buys another he likes, the speculator who buys guns with the hope that they will increase in value so that he can sell them later, and the actual dealer who buys and sells guns for his livelihood? Nothing but intent and that can be hard to prove one way or the other and it is mostly a matter of what ATF believes the intent is.
But the bottom line, if a private individual IS NOT running a business, he should be protected by FOPA. Otherwise you'd be able to arrest every gun forum member who ever sold a gun in an EE or on Gunbroker because the vast majority of them are selling those guns for more than they paid for them.
Sadly the perception here is mostly incorrect and it's almost like FOPA never happened. And once the perception is accepted by most everyone it too will certainly become an actual law.
Thanks for correcting me on the buying/selling part - that's how it was explained to me previously, so I apologize for any misinformation. That said...
A straw purchase is only a straw purchase if you are buying a firearm for a person who is ineligible to own firearms.
Not according to the ATF:
However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case.
http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-learning-theater/episode-4.html
Thanks for correcting me on the buying/selling part - that's how it was explained to me previously, so I apologize for any misinformation. That said...
If you read any frustration in my response, it wasn't you specifically so much as my disgust with the misconception as it exists.
Not according to the ATF:
However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case.
ATF word game. If it is a gift, and the person is not prohibited, then YOU are the ACTUAL BUYER of the gift. Same as if YOU bought a lawn mower and then gave it to your father for Christmas.
Now in the instance that you really are buying the gun at the behest of someone else who is the ACTUAL PURCHASER (meaning they gave you the money) then, and only then, would it be a straw purchase as described in the ATF example but that isn't the context we were discussing.
If it is YOUR MONEY and YOU ARE BUYING THE GUN then you are the ACTUAL PURCHASER as asked by the 4473. What you do with the firearm after it becomes your property is irrelevant UNLESS you provide it to a prohibited person which is a crime.
Again, sorry if I beat you up with my initial reply, but the whole straw purchase nonsense pisses me off. It was already illegal to knowingly provide a gun to a prohibited person and it is nothing more than incrementalism. Eventually it will be illegal to gift a firearm.
~snip~
It was already illegal to knowingly provide a gun to a prohibited person and it is nothing more than incrementalism.
This might be going off topic a little but this makes me angry to no end. Perception is key and increasing regulation without changing the wording, or as you put it increnmentalism, crops up constantly with esoteric topics. People 'think' things are illegal because 'it just seems that way.' Journalists spread these ideas like the plague. If you try to explain it, their eyes glaze over, but they still act properly 'horrified' and try to declare X thing illegal when they hear about it.
This isn't even unique to firearms. Several states banned caffeinated alcoholic drinks last year because omg if your underage kid goes on a bender they can have a heart attack.
This might be going off topic a little but this makes me angry to no end. Perception is key and increasing regulation without changing the wording, or as you put it increnmentalism, crops up constantly with esoteric topics. People 'think' things are illegal because 'it just seems that way.' Journalists spread these ideas like the plague. If you try to explain it, their eyes glaze over, but they still act properly 'horrified' and try to declare X thing illegal when they hear about it.
This isn't even unique to firearms. Several states banned caffeinated alcoholic drinks last year because omg if your underage kid goes on a bender they can have a heart attack.
Nothing more useful to big government than a voter thinking to himself "No harm in this law, that is already illegal anyway."
The commonly held beliefs by so called "informed gun advocates" on various forums make my head hurt. Pretty bad when our side is championing the erosion of our rights because of how they have interpreted a given ATF regulation. The misunderstanding of things like FOPA is legion.
Suwannee Tim
04-09-11, 05:14
thats why i brought this up...explain your reasons why? Is it breaking the law to sell off a personal stash?
Not now. Maybe later. In California you can't transfer certain firearms in state, they must be destroyed or transferred out of state. If that was federal law the guns would be worthless.
This is a really good thread and probably the best explanation of the whole FFL vs private collector I have seen.
The_War_Wagon
04-09-11, 07:01
In the event of societal/economic collapse, you DON'T want to be bartering with guns, but rather, with mags - and to a greater extent - AMMO.
This is why I've gotten rid of ALL my oddball caliber weapons, and have streamlined as much as possible on the following
.22LR (2 rifles, 1 pistol)
.45acp (5 pistols)
.223 (4 rifles)
7.62x39 (1 rifle)
.308 (1 rifle)
12 gauge (2 shotguns)
I also have one snub-nosed .357 - useful because it uses .38 ammo as well, and because my wife can't handle most firearms. And even for the solo rifles in .30, I own 4k and 9k of ammo for them respectively. Firearms will be PLENTIFUL - AMMO, will not. THERE'S where you need to plan your barter.
Ok I am 47 my brother is 4 years older
We took a course in the cold war scare in 1980 or a year up or down ?
And used to be in the survivalist mentality big time
Anyway the guy was well respected and had some thoughts as he had been around the block so to speak in his days x spook kinda guy :)
His thoughts were if SHTF you dont want to give things that can be used against you never sell your ammo never sell your guns ever
If bad people hear this you might get ganged up on killed for your stuff
Better to trade with food or knowledge doctors and dentists will be like gold
Instead of selling a 22 rifle sell rabbits or meat salt spices etc... have a garden sell fruit etc...
Have a few throw away rifles just incase cheap 22 rifles etc.. Keep your other stuff well hidden make your junk stuff look like its your only if you get robbed point them to your gun safe give them the combo and let them take your junk !!
Make that safe look real :)
A long time ago a guy wrote a great amount of info over time about his life durring the economic collapse of argentina
Yes people will need ammo and such but Things that were big bucks in argentina
Jeans socks sturdy shoes etc... Daily things also his thoughts on how markets popped up who controlled them was interesting
I do wish I had my collection I had in he 80s but would have made way more money buying apple stock :)
So yes having firearms can be good investment but not for SHTF but for normal times and they can be something to use and enjoy along the way
much like buying classic cars
Again maybe its my age and some people I have met in my life but decided I wont be tipping my hand and bartering any ammo or stuff like that
Unless my life depended on it and then you tipped your hand
Remember many here wont need it they will have their own stash and the people that need it were unprepared and most likely are not people I want to deal with
Just my thoughts :)
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