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tbaytusmc
04-09-11, 19:16
I did a search, and didn't find anything about this, which surprised me a little bit, but my question is -

Is there any need to do any kind of "break in" procedure for a new precision barrel? I've heard of people doing things like shooting 5 rounds, then cleaning, repeat X amount of times, shoot 10 rounds, clean, repeat, shoot 20 rounds, clean, repeat, etc. etc. etc...

I wanted to pick your knowledgeable brains for some answers...

Is anything like this necessary? Will it actually "squeeze" out some extra accuracy? Or is it all bologna and propaganda created by the solvent/gun care product companies? :D

austinN4
04-09-11, 19:35
Some thoughts on the subject, both pro and con, in this thread:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=78479

Littlelebowski
04-09-11, 19:55
No. Shoot it. Don't buy into voodoo. Clean if and when accuracy drops off.

tbaytusmc
04-09-11, 20:06
The dude abides.

lol. In all seriousness though, this is what I've been thinking... that it's all "voodoo". Maybe cause I don't like cleaning that damn much, and I also don't believe firearms should have to be pampered like purse dogs to shoot well... I read the provided link through, as well. It sounds like a bunch of crap.

uwe1
04-09-11, 21:32
There is a shit-load of threads on barrel break in. I found this one to be fairly good and full of info.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=35238&highlight=break

Mr. Goodtimes
04-10-11, 00:40
shoot the **** out of it.

MistWolf
04-10-11, 01:13
Some swear by it, some swear at it. Emailed the guy at Little Crow Gunworks about breaking in the Lothar Walther barrel he sold me. He does a lot of prairie dog shooting and said the guys who get the longest life from their barrels use a break in procedure.

His break in procedure is to shot one round then clean for the first four rounds, then shoots another 16 rounds and cleans between every four. At the same time, he is testing loads and has a pretty good idea what load the rifle is going to like.

Maybe it's all voodoo and chicken blood, but many very serious, experienced precision shooters break in their barrels.

Since you're going to shoot the rifle, sight it in and maybe develop loads for it right out of the gate anyway, what's it cost you but some time? I did mine just to see what would happen while test firing for function and sighting in the AR I'd just finished assembling.

But if you're the impatient type, you can blow through the first 20 rounds without adjusting sights or load development or breaking in procedures and you still will have sent 20 rounds down range. You won't be drummed out of the League of Extraordinary AR Shooters whichever you choose

Belmont31R
04-10-11, 15:45
I just go out and shoot. I didn't clean my EMC out of the box, and it didn't get a cleaning until a little over 2k rounds. I just cleaned it again at over 3100. Even then my barrel cleaning takes about 10-30 minutes depending on if I decide to use a rod or not.


Just prior to the first cleaning it shot some sub MOA 10 shot groups.



I don't buy into the shoot once clean shoot again clean crap. I've never done any break in procedure on a single gun, and have had a few precision guns that all were capable of sub MOA groups as long as I didn't **** it up. I usually do, and really don't like shooting groups anyways. I just do it for ammo testing and zeroing. If I wanted to shoot groups Id get a bench rest gun.

Meplat
04-10-11, 18:42
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1562996#Post1562996
Here's a very interesting post over on Sniper's Hide from a guy who did a lot of research and really looked into it.
Ultimately the answer/conclusion that I drew from it was no, barrel break-in is unnecessary. Shooting the gun itself is what's smoothing out any possible imperfections or burrs or anything like that, not dragging a cloth patch and solvent through it every few rounds.

Sgt_Gold
04-10-11, 23:20
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1562996#Post1562996
Here's a very interesting post over on Sniper's Hide from a guy who did a lot of research and really looked into it.
Ultimately the answer/conclusion that I drew from it was no, barrel break-in is unnecessary. Shooting the gun itself is what's smoothing out any possible imperfections or burrs or anything like that, not dragging a cloth patch and solvent through it every few rounds.

That post has some interesting observations that I also ran across shooting high power. There have always been multiple opinions as to when and how to clean a match rifle barrel. The general consensus has been slowly building toward not cleaning the barrel for the duration of the season. Another question was how to clean the barrel, chemically or with an abrasive. I was in the chemical corner until another shooter explained his reasons for using bore paste. By removing all the copper fouling via chemical cleaning, seasoning the now completely clean barrel causes additional wear and increases the size of the micro fissures on the inside of the barrel.

MistWolf
04-11-11, 00:45
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1562996#Post1562996
Here's a very interesting post over on Sniper's Hide from a guy who did a lot of research and really looked into it.
Ultimately the answer/conclusion that I drew from it was no, barrel break-in is unnecessary. Shooting the gun itself is what's smoothing out any possible imperfections or burrs or anything like that, not dragging a cloth patch and solvent through it every few rounds.

The idea of cleaning after the shots is to keep fouling from filling in the rough spots and preventing them from being smoothed. No one thinks cotton patches or bore brushes deburr or smooth anything inside the barrel.

Ok, almost nobody. Except for maybe folks on a certain forum or two...

Littlelebowski
04-11-11, 07:02
That post has some interesting observations that I also ran across shooting high power. There have always been multiple opinions as to when and how to clean a match rifle barrel. The general consensus has been slowly building toward not cleaning the barrel for the duration of the season. Another question was how to clean the barrel, chemically or with an abrasive. I was in the chemical corner until another shooter explained his reasons for using bore paste. By removing all the copper fouling via chemical cleaning, seasoning the now completely clean barrel causes additional wear and increases the size of the micro fissures on the inside of the barrel.

By using abrasives, you smooth out the entire barrel, wearing out the sharp edges as well,

mike boufford
04-17-11, 17:22
By using abrasives, you smooth out the entire barrel, wearing out the sharp edges as well,

What are you using, 5 micron diamond paste?

Actually I'm glad to see this thread come up. As a newbie here, I cannot seemingly operate the search function, which may be due to my low post count.

I have a Colt CAR A3 with a 24" stainless heavy match barrel. I've been told to shoot once and then clean after each shot for 20 rounds. The process is then progressing to cleaning every two shots for 20 shots, every 5 shots for 20 shots, then every 10 shots, and then when done shooting for the day. I'm just a little skeptical of this because that level of shooting wouldn't leave a large enough deposit on the barrel surface to matter. Cleaning after every 10 shots for the first couple of hundred makes more sense.

My bigger concern in any barrel would be throat erosion before rifling wear. Reloading and dialing in the load to the barrel and chamber is more important to precision shooting IMO. My favorite rifle when I was younger was an off the shelf Ruger M77 in .25-06. The load I worked up for it consisted of 50.5 grains of IMR 4831 with a 117 gr Sierra Game King boattail on top of it. This load, tuned to the barrel, provided accuracy capable of picking 5 out of 5 empty shot gun shells off of a target rail at 200 yards. The scope was the limiting factor in improving the accuracy of this weapon.

Littlelebowski
04-17-11, 18:03
Mike, please read this (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=60102).

Littlelebowski
04-17-11, 18:06
Go to http://google.com

Type the below (not the "code" part) in exactly. You may substitute your own search criteria in the quotes. Press return or enter.


"barrel break in" site:m4carbine.net

ALCOAR
04-17-11, 19:13
The reason I cannot read much in this subforum w/o going mad...and the reason I assume Molon hasn't been seen in such a long time is that the same folks blast one set of opinions using "internet quotes/facts" to bolster their opinions one week...then the next week that set of opinions isn't the same, no surprise the quoted intel is different as well.

Dude, I recall you scoffing off a reply I made when I said that the premise of frequent cleanings..be it light cleaning...has benefit for any real match grade SS blank that consistently shoot's and measures sub moa groups time in and time out again. (instead of this bullshit "clean when accuracy drops off" line that should never be used in this subforum). If you want combat accuracy, be my guest and do the old self monitoring of accuracy until you can document your 2-3 moa dropping to about 2.5-3.5 moa.

So your still staying pat on breaking in procedure of any kind is hocus pocus....and here you sourced The wisdom of Gale link that you provided above. This is the very first entry of his....

"It seems that every time I finish a chapter in my book someone makes a post on my material.. I just finished this subject yesterday. I tried a controlled
test in 1984 on cryo treated barrels. It was on S/S match Bench Rest barrels and it was for accuracy only. Results were negative. It did not help. A
couple of years ago Lazzeroni did a comprehensive accuracy and wear test. The conclusion was accuracy negative but some improvement to wear.
Before he did a release on the study he did the complete study again. This time the results were the exact opposite as the first test and the control
barrel lasted longer. Conclusion Save your money!!!"

Ok so we are all convinced of this point and we cede it to you....but now please explain how this same wisdom you quote on the very next entry or comment of Gale's is as follows.....

"Do your rifle a favor and clean it well after every group and forget all the break in BS"

So is Gale only right about half the stuff he puts on the net and you quote...or what?

Littlelebowski
04-17-11, 20:20
I understand you dont like my point of view, Trident. If you look at yhe words from our last little tiff over voodoo, you'll see that I believe in cleaning when accuracy drops off. Now, I know you think you have got that dastardly LL right where you want him but I will tell you that I believe in what has worked for me. I will remind you once again that I derive a bit of my beliefs from folks that used the SR25 as sniper weapon in combat.

Did you ever figure out how much accuracy you would lose by skipping a cleaning or two, or are you too cautious to try something that goes against conventional wisdom?

After all, what would Magpul Dynamics, Rifles Only, and Marine Scout Snipers know?

I have a feeling you are afraid to mess with your groups that you post on here. Try opening your mind and skipping a few cleanings. Prove me wrong. I have already tried both routes and I just wish I had all of that time back I spent cleaning.

mike boufford
04-17-11, 21:39
Go to http://google.com

Type the below (not the "code" part) in exactly. You may substitute your own search criteria in the quotes. Press return or enter.


"barrel break in" site:m4carbine.net

Thanks for both links, they were very helpful.

ALCOAR
04-17-11, 23:28
I understand you dont like my point of view, Trident. If you look at yhe words from our last little tiff over voodoo, you'll see that I believe in cleaning when accuracy drops off. Now, I know you think you have got that dastardly LL right where you want him but I will tell you that I believe in what has worked for me. I will remind you once again that I derive a bit of my beliefs from folks that used the SR25 as sniper weapon in combat.

Did you ever figure out how much accuracy you would lose by skipping a cleaning or two, or are you too cautious to try something that goes against conventional wisdom?

After all, what would Magpul Dynamics, Rifles Only, and Marine Scout Snipers know?

I have a feeling you are afraid to mess with your groups that you post on here. Try opening your mind and skipping a few cleanings. Prove me wrong. I have already tried both routes and I just wish I had all of that time back I spent cleaning.

The fact is I always respected your opinion, and your certainly entitled to owning your own opinion. I just have noticed your replies recently esp. on the topic of AR maintenance and cleaning to be very short and rather bold considering even the best among us still have yet to prove definitive science in these arena's. I just try to avoid calling out anybody's position unless is shortbus material and when I do, I damn sure try and bring the goods given it is going to take the goods in order to change minds on these subjects.

If you believe this is totally hocus pocus than I certainly don't mind learning why you feel that way...and I would have accepted Gale's opinion on the matter as yours...but when Gale agrees with what I believe that you happen to not believe I get very confused.

At least it's civil and that's the most important thing:)

Littlelebowski
04-18-11, 15:41
My point is that I am speaking from personal experience that has been backed up by a lot of very knowledgeable folk. You seem to be saying "if you agree with Gale on this, then you MUST agree with Gale on EVERYTHING." I don't roll that way.

Look dude, all you have to do is shoot groups and not clean. Measure your results. Apply a little scientific method instead of shooting, cleaning, and telling everyone that must be the way to shoot tiny groups instead of just taking a chance. It's not like your barrel is going to die.

I've said it once and I'll say it again: I've already tried both ways - the silly break in method and incessant cleaning methods as opposed to just ****ing shooting the damned thing. I know which one worked for me.

ALCOAR
04-18-11, 16:08
MY point is that I just really don't believe enough people esp. on the site have an AR/barrel that can consistently record sub moa groups...and I mean true honest groupings of 10rds. When I say sub moa, I mean .7-.8"..not 1-1.2". Besides Molon, Belmont, and myself.....I just have not seen anybody document enough true sub moa "precision sub forum material" groups in order for me to believe folks can understand that cleaning frequent on match grade SS barrels yields or doesnt yield increases in accuracy. This is because the increases in accuracy are only going to be seen by those who are operating at such a honed and small group size that it's easily detectable..i.e. shooter can much more easily see the gain in accuracy shooting .7" groups vs. .5" groups than they can see shooting 1.9" and 2.1" groups. If someone's barrel shoots 2moa, they might as well do the ole' clean whenever I think I need to....cause they are not gonna see small positive gains yielded by frequent cleaning very easily.

Littlelebowski
04-18-11, 16:17
MY point is that I just really don't believe enough people esp. on the site have an AR/barrel that can consistently record sub moa groups...and I mean true honest groupings of 10rds. When I say sub moa, I mean .7-.8"..not 1-1.2". Besides Molon, Belmont, and myself.....I just have not seen anybody document enough true sub moa "precision sub forum material" groups in order for me to believe folks can understand that cleaning frequent on match grade SS barrels yields or doesnt yield increases in accuracy. This is because the increases in accuracy are only going to be seen by those who are operating at such a honed and small group size that it's easily detectable..i.e. shooter can much more easily see the gain in accuracy shooting .7" groups vs. .5" groups than they can see shooting 1.9" and 2.1" groups. If someone's barrel shoots 2moa, they might as well do the ole' clean whenever I think I need to....cause they are not gonna see small positive gains yielded by frequent cleaning very easily.

But you still haven't proven anything, have you?

Iraqgunz
04-18-11, 17:40
I broke in my Noveske by loading up some magazines and shooting it. I didn't follow any "break in" procedures. I don't think I can honestly say that I noticed an accuracy issue.

But, I also don't get wrapped up in accuracy "minutia" because I think in the bigger scheme of things it's a non-issue for 90% of the population (my made up statistic).

ALCOAR
04-18-11, 18:59
IG has a real important factor pegged and that's the simple fact that 90% (his math:D) 99% (my math) of folks cannot tell minutia gains in accuracy on their said AR's and it's not important, nor is it a factor for them. It takes a pure tack driver built to tack drive in order for all these "Precision Sub Forum" topics to have merit. Which brings me full circle about why it's easy to get a little loco in this forum.

az doug
04-18-11, 19:01
Gail McMillan manufactures precision barrels and shoots benchrest. He does not believe in a break in period for a precision barrel. Below is a link to his thoughts.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html

Here is a link to McMillan discussing barrel break in with other members of Sniper Country.

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn.asp

Littlelebowski
04-18-11, 19:25
Gail McMillan manufactures precision barrels and shoots benchrest.

He did. RIP.

Littlelebowski
04-18-11, 19:27
IG has a real important factor pegged and that's the simple fact that 90% (his math:D) 99% (my math) of folks cannot tell minutia gains in accuracy on their said AR's and it's not important, nor is it a factor for them. It takes a pure tack driver built to tack drive in order for all these "Precision Sub Forum" topics to have merit. Which brings me full circle about why it's easy to get a little loco in this forum.

All you have to do is shoot for groups dirty and clean. Document it, take your time, apply the scientific method. Don't say "I think you can only reap the benefits of cleaning frequently/barel break in/etc by shooting very tiny groups," prove it. Right now you are hypothesizing with nothing to go on.

Or you could head on over to http://snipershide.com........

Artos
04-18-11, 21:58
www.benchrest.com is where you want to be to look for real record keeping knowledge on cleaning bbl's...if the crusty ole snots will even share it with you.

like most forums, there will be lines drawn but most will tell you squeaky clean should be avoided & not necessary and regular bore cleaning for 'the application' must be consistant for the particular bbl to maintain her peak performance.

I have a pre-64 model 70 that gets scrubbed once a year and takes 10-12 shots to get the gator looking bore filled in and back into moa needs for hunting. I only clean that gun with a brush unless I feel like breaking her back in.

My borden / bryant 6br preferes moly bullets and jb every 50-60 before she opens up.

My new and stupid favorite 5.56 / 12.5 sbr is stuck at 1.25moa regardless what I do...most of the gents on benchrest.com will tell you every bbl is dialed into it's max on it's birth. I hrear of many guys re-crowning / chambering high dollar blanks only to be become hunting rigs because they could not get them to prove .250" @ 100yds.

You can ALSO ruin your bbl by improper cleaning methods and over cleaning has probably ruined more bbl's than it has helped.

Use a good bore guide like the lucas and watch your targets for the particular application.

my one and only screamer group shot with a 6ppc....first 4 shots were as fast as I could run the condition and then the fly showed up, told doc to check the group & whacked him with the same condition. My 5th shot 'back into the group' had a kentucky hold 1" different from where the first 4 went.

The flags changed and it took at least 1/2 dozen shots and more than 5 minutes on the sighters for me to 'trust' the 5th shot would fall back into my 1st 4.

Accuracy is subjective....pick your battle accordingly. Especially with a semi rifle.

I shot CHINGOS of .1" groups with 4 different full blown short range bolt rigs...that is using top notch equipment and wind flags and almost ALWAYS happened on the 5th shot. Don't pick the fly shit out of the pepper on accuracy as it is all subjective to her application.

I did benchrest for fun and relaxation...i cannot imagine going it with a timeline, moving backers and the stress of competition.

8194

Mute
04-19-11, 17:59
I've gone both the break-in and the just shoot it route on similar type rifles in the past. If break-in made any difference in either accuracy or easier cleaning, I did not see it in any way at all. I no longer break in any of my rifles and only clean barrels when accuracy starts to degrade. I still clean the chambers and bolts and such, but only because I like a clean gun, and they do seem more reliable (especially semi-automatics) when they are kept relatively clean.