View Full Version : Larry Vickers and Pmags?
GeorgiaBoy
04-09-11, 21:14
Ever since the special edition LAV Daniel Defense M4 came out I have been intrigued by the aluminum magazine pictured in the rifle, as well as Vickers using them it in his Carbine Course videos.
With the shift in the past couple of years the use of pmags, is there any particulular reason that the LAV is still using aluminum mags? Personal preference? Easier to insert/drop in the magazine well? Or does anybody know?
I do know that while I love pmags, I often run aluminum mags still in my DD carbine due to some of my pmags being to tight in the mag well, along with my laziness to file them to fit. ;)
Personal preference?
Yes, with an eye towards having been reliable, and hardy, for years and lots of rounds.
In his new DVD he recommends black PMAGs as well as aluminum magazines with the proper follower. I imagine that is due to some reported durability issues with other color PMAGs.
In his new DVD he recommends black PMAGs as well as aluminum magazines with the proper follower. I imagine that is due to some reported durability issues with other color PMAGs.
This echoes what was said in his carbine class back in Nov. Quality usgi or black pmags. Mentioned an incident of a cracked fde but didn't seem anti pmag as long as they dropped free from your individual lower.
For that particular rifle it came down to color matching and durability, particularly in regard to the durability/reliability of FDE Pmags. The reliability of GI mags is a given. I was told to avoid any but the black Pmags.
The Vickers rifle originally came with three Brownells mags, but Brownells discontinued them and, if I'm not mistaken, they now ship with one mag from Bravo Company.
During his combat service, Larry had to carry his magazines and ammunition over long distances by foot. Since the aluminum magazine is significantly lighter weight than the pmag, this might have something to do with it.
kaltesherz
04-10-11, 12:26
USGI aluminum mags have a shitty rep because the military frequently keeps them in service well past their lifespan and fail to realize they're a disposable item that wears out. Okay brand USGI mag with a Magpul followers run extremely well and are all I use for training and wouldn't hesitate to use them for SHTF use either.
I had LAV for an instructor in a course before I retired and he was using PMAGs. LAV seems to shoot and carry whatever is interesting to him at the time. :D
I posted my first reply late last night, so I'll expand a bit.
I took one of his classes last week and someone had one of the Vickers rifles there. He spoke specifically about color matching issues.
I was also in the class Icculus mentions, where LAV questioned the reliability of any but the black Pmags and the fact that quality GI mags offer proven reliability.
The Brownells mags matched better and were more reliable than FDE Pmags, so the Vickers rifle came with the Brownells mags until they were discontinued, and—if I remember correctly—they now come with FDE D&H mags sourced from Bravo Company.
During his combat service, Larry had to carry his magazines and ammunition over long distances by foot. Since the aluminum magazine is significantly lighter weight than the pmag, this might have something to do with it.
USGI mags are exactly 3/4 oz lighter than a PMAG. When loaded, that is a very small percentage. (With a Magpul follower it's even less.)
Let's not forget Larry was recommending HK mags at over twice the weight of a USGI mag empty. That's a huge difference and he had no problem recommending those for years (well after his combat service).
Unless you heard that from Larry directly, logic tells me it has little to do with what you posted. This is not a slam on you at all. Just trying to keep speculation out of it.
That's a very good point! I had forgotten about the HK mags.
I'm still not sure what the debate is - if there is one. He recommends black PMAGs as well.
I think it was in some thread of arfcom like a year ago, but it was revealed that coloring the polymer in PMags anything but black reduced the structural integrity of the polymer, even if only in theory. Operating the colored PMags in extreme temperatures (e.g. war zones in the Middle East) exacerbated the issue and they could crack during usage. Reportedly (not sure if it's true), this is one of the reasons that clear PMags never made it to full production.
Anyways, as far as it being an issue in the FDE/OD/Foliage colors, it was deemed that those colors either didn't pose enough of a risk or that it wasn't measurable enough - the exact reason of, I'm not sure. However, any color but black will theoretically have a weaker structure. The choice for black PMags was presumably for reliability and integrity of the magazine.
Why is it so odd that someone would not use a pmag? At a 3:2 price, sometimes 2:1, why not use a GI mag?
Why is it so odd that someone would not use a pmag? At a 3:2 price, sometimes 2:1, why not use a GI mag?
Longevity under working conditions and durability. Buy USGI and pay for replacements later or buy PMags at double the cost and don't worry about needing others. It works out about even in the end, so it would make sense for most just to opt for PMags.
Longevity under working conditions and durability. Buy USGI and pay for replacements later or buy PMags at double the cost and don't worry about needing others. It works out about even in the end, so it would make sense for most just to opt for PMags.
Why would you not opt for double GI mags at todays prices?
Why not get the best of both worlds and order DSG's teflon mags with Magpul followers for 9 bucks pop. Pmags cant assist in clearing cases jammed above the BCG like a metal mag can...not that there is only one way to do that of course.
Why would you not opt for double GI mags at todays prices?
For me personally, I'd prefer to have a single, over-engineered piece of equipment than two of something that meets bare minimum quality, especially when it's already considered a semi-disposable item (i.e. it's expected to break and be non-serviceable at some point in time). Equipment tends to fail at the very second you need it not to - don't ask how I was just reminded of that.
The other thing is that during reloads with USGI mags, the aluminum on aluminum contact from the mags and the magwell wears away the anodizing and the metal itself (from both the lower receiver and the magazines). If you're issued a working gun, this isn't even worth thinking about, but for my own guns, I want them to last as long as possible, especially if there was ever another AWB or magazine ban. PMags simply reduce another point of failure in the system for me.
And if all else fails, PMags just look cooler. ;)
mike boufford
04-10-11, 20:31
In his new DVD he recommends black PMAGs as well as aluminum magazines with the proper follower. I imagine that is due to some reported durability issues with other color PMAGs.
Okay, I am going to ask another newbie question, but this one is based on years of injection mold experience. In normal circumstances the difference between products made in the same mold but of different color is the color additive and not a difference in the actual polymer. How does the change in colorant affect durability? I'm at a bit of a loss.
Heavy Metal
04-10-11, 20:39
I think it was in some thread of arfcom like a year ago, but it was revealed that coloring the polymer in PMags anything but black reduced the structural integrity of the polymer, even if only in theory. Operating the colored PMags in extreme temperatures (e.g. war zones in the Middle East) exacerbated the issue and they could crack during usage. Reportedly, this is one of the reasons that clear PMags never made it to full production.
Anyways, as far as it being an issue in the FDE/OD/Foliage colors, it was deemed that those colors either didn't pose enough of a risk or that it wasn't measurable enough - the exact reason of, I'm not sure. However, any color but black will theoretically have a weaker structure. The choice for black PMags was presumably for reliability and integrity of the magazine.
The clear magazines are a polycarbonate. Not even similar to the Thermoset polymer the colored P-Mags are made from.
I suspect it has more to do with material flow in the molds for certain lots of the tan P-Mags than any strutcural issue. I suspect the tan polymer cools faster than the darker colorations and does not allow as even a flow in the mold. You may be getting less fiberglass in the polymer at the feed-lip end of the mold.
Belmont31R
04-10-11, 20:49
Its my understanding, from Magpul, the colored products are weaker due to the mix in the polymer that produces the color.
Ive had no issued with USGI ISSUE mags with Magpul followers. I have over 150 mags I rotate through, and Im still using the magazines with original springs that I got during my 2005 deployment. They have never failed me, and been loaded a ton of times.
I did have a PMAG crack down the spine when my wife and I were nude wrestling in the bed. 4-5FT drop onto the floor, and rounds spilled out.
Captain_America
04-10-11, 20:49
What is the issue with non-black Pmags? (good thing all mine are black)
Sorry didn't see the above posts, page had been up for a while.
Is there any issue with the colored polymers and weakening from UV rays? I seem to recall something along those lines with Glock frames. Something about the black being more resistant to the weakening effects of UV.
Its my understanding, from Magpul, the colored products are weaker due to the mix in the polymer that produces the color.
That isn't surprising. The only Bulgarian waffle magazines I ever recommend are black for the very same reason.
Jay Cunningham
04-10-11, 22:23
All AR-15 magazines should be considered semi-disposable. They're like a Bic lighter... You use them so many times and when they're done you throw them away and buy a replacement.
Jay Cunningham
04-10-11, 22:24
double tap
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-11-11, 01:06
I did have a PMAG crack down the spine when my wife and I were nude wrestling in the bed. 4-5FT drop onto the floor, and rounds spilled out.
Vickers never nude wrestles when PMAGs are near...
Seriously though, Ive never had a problem with colored pmags. The only mags that have ever screwed me over were worn out GI mags...of course.
Okay, I am going to ask another newbie question, but this one is based on years of injection mold experience. In normal circumstances the difference between products made in the same mold but of different color is the color additive and not a difference in the actual polymer. How does the change in colorant affect durability? I'm at a bit of a loss.
Coloring Plastics, 500 pages of mind numbing material on how it works, but yeah color is a factor in strength: http://www.amazon.com/gp/searcbookh?index=s&linkCode=qs&keywords=0471139068
Doesn't really matter cause we don't know exactly what they're made of :p I had a theory they were nylon and people leaving them in damp places for long periods of time = expansion.
In the end, Pmags work, Aluminum mags work, why argue -.-
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