View Full Version : Who Carries with a laser?
Looking at the CCW thread, I don't see a lot of lasers. I am thinking about adding a Crimson Trace LG-619 to my Glock 19, and I'm wondering what everyone's experience with it in a carry gun has been.
If you carry with a laser, what are your thoughts on it? Pros? Cons? What are you carrying?
If you've given up the laser, why?
If you had one but don't now (change weapon, new job, change in circumstances, whatever), do you miss it?
In short, I'm wondering if I should save my pennies and use the money for something else.
The one concern I have is how far out it seems to protrude from the side of the pistol. Is that a real problem, or does it turn out to be nothing?
Bourneshooter
04-10-11, 11:09
Some of the people I work with have the Streamlight M6 light/laser on their duty gun. Now, they have never zeroed the laser but still have the switch set to turn both the light and laser on when activated.
Only good thing about the laser with those people, is it lets me know where they are pointing their gun so I don't get shot by my partner.
Lasers do have a place, but for most people its a crutch for not learning to shoot in the first place.
I have a CT on one of my Glocks I carry. I like it as a tool just like night sights what its not is a crutch for bad shooters some seem to thing its magic and dial in the target. I think you need good skills first cause you never know when you draw and Murphy kicks in.
My summer carry is a sw 442 with ct grips. Best advice, don't learn to shoot with it. In distress or a hurry, it's sometimes hard to locate the laser. I like it, however I always pull the gun up for a full sight picture.
All my J-frames have CTC Lasergrips.
My daily carry G19 and the G17 that I shoot the most have Crimson Trace LG-417's. I consider them a must have for certain low light situations and odd shooting positions.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/HK416010.jpg
I run a Crimson Trace laser grip on my Ruger LCP, since the sights are rudimentary at best, and night sights (which are my number one aftermarket mod for any handgun) aren't readily available.
I expect laser grips would be the way to go for other handguns, but I leave them off my full size weapons because they aren't allowed in IDPA. Rail mounted lasers need a special holster, and I've heard enough horror stories (secondhand, never seen it) about guide rod lasers locking up guns when something breaks that I don't trust those either.
My two cents.
CT's on my M&P's and 340PD...
I have lasers on several carry/home defense guns, including Crimson Trace LG-305 on j-frames and Surefire X400 on Glock 34s. I am ambivalent about them, though.
I believe that they can help under certain specific conditions. An example is when there is enough light to ID the threat, but not enough light to use the sights quickly. If there isn't enough ambient light to ID the target, and one has to use a handheld light or WML, then the white light WML or handheld light seems to wash out a red laser. If there is enough light to see the sights quickly, then I use the sights.
Lasers can perhaps help in using shooting positions in which one can't use the sights, like when carrying a ballistic shield. I'm not LE so I don't use a shield.
Lasers do seem to impose an additional training load. IMO they cannot be used to substitute for training. An example: I have found that if I keep both eyes open while aiming the handgun, I can see both the sights and the laser dot. If I close my weak eye than I can only see the sights or the laser, but not both, depending on where I index the gun. IMO it's always better to keep both eyes open, but this could be an issue for a shooter who is still struggling with keeping both eyes open.
After having spent a good bit of money on lasers and spent some training time with them under varying lighting conditions, I've come to suspect that the money might have been better spent on extra training and ammo instead.
I run a CT laser on my Sig P229 and I think it's a great tool for many situations. I agree with the above posts that you shouldn't rely on it and shoot with it all the time, but it's a great accurate tool for low light situations, and allows you to focus more on the target/threat when shooting. Mine is extremely accurate and hasn't ever lost zero.
I train mostly with my normal sights, but love the laser in low light.
As an example, I shot an indoor low light course recently with mechanical computerized pop up targets. I shot the course multiple times with both my normal night sights, and then with the laser. I consistently scored higher and faster when using the laser in low light.
Lasers aren't a be all end all, but they are a great tool that, IMO, can be beneficial in many situations.
All my J-frames have CTC Lasergrips.
Ditto.
No downside to this except cost, with much to recommend this as a good idea.
On your j frames only, or are you recommending for j frames only?
I have CT laser grips on both of my M&Ps. I feel that they could potentially provide considerable benefits under certain circumstances. I agree with a poster above that a laser sight cannot, and must not be expected to, take the place of fundamental skills. However, as the old saying goes, 'better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.'
My thoughts exactly. don't use them as a crutch, but why not have every advantage.
Very difficult to keep focused on them when switching between targets or under recoil.
I have the LG series on my G26 and G19 and wouldnt be without them.
I practice both using the laser and the irons. In full daylight the red laser isnt any help so you must be able to use the irons. In less than full daylight its a godsend for people who rely on a pair of glasses for reading or picking up the irons clearly. Its an additional tool in the war chest and it can bring an advantage in certain situations. The ability to aim without having the gun eye level and the advantages to some who have less that perfect vision make it an accessory I am glad is available.
willowofwisp
04-10-11, 18:45
I have a set on my J frame and view them as a great tool.
Found this to be interesting:
Seven or eight years ago, a bunch of guys were sitting around in a hotel room waiting to go to dinner. Ken Hackathorn, Ernest Langdon, Dave Harrington, me, and this quiet guy sitting on the floor next to the door. There was this big argument going on, with me on one side and everyone (except the guy by the door) on the other. I was saying the laser was great, the other guys were all somewhere between skeptical and hostile to the idea.
During a lull, the guy on the floor piped up, "There are things you can do with a laser that you can't do without. Period."
That pretty much turned the tide of the discussion. Within a few years, Ken Hackatorn, Ernest Langdon, and Dave Harrington were all consultants for or otherwise involved with Crimson Trace Corp.
The guy sitting on the floor? You may have heard of him. His name is Larry Vickers.
My follow ups are actually faster with.
It appears that the primary use case is snubbies for most folks (VA_Dinger, etc, being the exceptions).
Why not on your primary "full sized" pistol?
Has anyone had issues with bumping the laser when it's holstered?
When you say, "odd shooting angles", and LAV's "some things", what exactly does that mean?
I'm coming at this from the POV of a low speed armed citizen. I'll never use a shield, I can see "odd shooting angles", but honestly don't anticipate training around that right now.
I'm not looking to replace irons or to try to correct bad shooting with the laser, just looking to fill in a perceived gap and see if this is the right thing to do.
Love the responses so far! Thanks for all of the info to chew on!
RogerinTPA
04-10-11, 21:51
All the time for a couple of years now with CTC on my M&P9c.
SeriousStudent
04-10-11, 22:01
My J-frame 642 has a Crimson Trace LG-405 laser grip, as do many of the other posters.
My church gun is a Glock G17 with a Surefire X300 and a Crimson Trace 617 laser. It rides in a Kaluban Cloak kydex holster rigged for IWB.
It allows me to make shots more accurately at longer distances, and do so more quickly. Some of the distances inside our church are right at 45 yards. The Warren Tactical sights are very quick out to about 25 yards, but with my old eyes, I can score an accurate hit quicker with the laser past that distance.
Your results may vary. It's what works for me, up close and at distance.
I don't have lasers on all my handguns, however the only thing I don't like then on is long guns/ar's. To fill the gap? Absolutely!
nobody knows
04-11-11, 06:36
I had a pair on a 3" kimber and did not care for them. I found it drew my eye away from my primary sights, And slowed me down quit a bit. I don't see a problem with them for those that they work for, but for me I'd chose a good set of night sights any day.
John_Wayne777
04-11-11, 08:03
It appears that the primary use case is snubbies for most folks (VA_Dinger, etc, being the exceptions).
Why not on your primary "full sized" pistol?
I'm carrying a P30 and they don't make a good laser for the P30...yet. When CT releases a decent laser for it and I can get a holster that will accommodate it, I'll carry it. The laser that I purchased for the M&P (which I retired due to AIWB carry) now rides on my father's carry gun. I gave it to him as a birthday present.
Has anyone had issues with bumping the laser when it's holstered?
I've only used the CT grips on my guns. Activation requires deliberately engaging a button. With some of the rail mounted lasers for handguns there's a possibility that a badly constructed holster might cause that problem, but I've never seen it with CT grips. It's more likely to happen in cases than holsters...and that's why many CT grips have an off switch you can use to preserve the battery.
When you say, "odd shooting angles", and LAV's "some things", what exactly does that mean?
Say I'm a shield man on a SWAT team. Aiming a handgun while there's this big shield in front of my face is kind of difficult...but with a laser I don't need to bring the gun up in front of a narrow window in the shield to try and get a sight picture. There are innumerable possible circumstances where I might need to fire an aimed shot but my ability to get a sight picture might be compromised...like if I'm huddled behind some cover trying desperately not to get shot.
As for "some things"...it means just that. I shoot faster and more accurately with a laser in low light than with iron sights under ideal range conditions. It's a much more efficient way to get an aiming reference than iron sights and with it I can make shots I couldn't make under other circumstances.
I'm not looking to replace irons or to try to correct bad shooting with the laser, just looking to fill in a perceived gap and see if this is the right thing to do.
Lasers tend to get a bad rap from people who haven't put the time and effort into learning to use them. Invariably personal preference devolves into there being some sort of "tactical" reason why lasers will give you cancer.
"You should be learning to use your sights!"
"Lasers give away your position!"
"You should buy a white light instead of a laser!"
Now any of those statements can be true under certain circumstances, but the way you see them used on the internet generally isn't in reference to a legitimate discussion of the limitations of lasers but instead is typically the product of a dude who is way the hell outside of his lane jabbering like a yahoo. I can't tell you how many times I've seen laser discussions go full retard when somebody gets stuck on comparing the utility of a white light vs. the utility of a laser....they're two completely separate pieces of equipment with two completely separate functions. The laser is an aiming reference...period. The white light is for identifying a threat...period.
Lasers are a great asset. They are the most efficient low light aiming reference available on the market today. No, they are not a substitute for iron sights because they aren't as durable. They are, however, far easier to use than iron sights and in a circumstance where your ass is on the line it may help you intelligently direct bullets into the anatomy of someone who wants to kill you. That's a good thing.
Having a laser won't instantly cure problems with the fundamentals...but having the dot on the target rather than fooling with the sights can give you instant feedback on what you're doing on the trigger, helping you correct improper trigger manipulation and allowing you to place shots more accurately. In a shoot or die situation your instinct is to look at the threat. The laser is an aiming reference that is projected literally ON the threat. That can also help you deliver accurate fire.
The laser isn't a substitute for deliberately cultivating skill in the fundamentals...but even in training if you use a laser properly it can help you refine your fundamentals and diagnose what you're doing wrong.
For most people a good laser (Crimson Trace) is a decent investment. Don't let the Luddite hoards convince you otherwise.
I use the crimson trace grip on my S&W 442 J frame. It is my off duty/ back up gun. It is the only gun I have with a laser. The crimson trace grip offers two advantages for me. It is larger than the stock grip, and fits my large hands very well. The laser provides me with quicker target aqusition with the low profile J frame sights. There is no way to mount nightsights on my 442, so the laser was my only option for improved aiming.
Another plus for the laser is when dry firing. It really allows you to guage your trgger control and natural movement when aiming. It is a tool for me, not a crutch.
Code3Patriot
04-11-11, 10:39
I'm on the fence about CT grips, which I feel are the best handgun laser option compared to others on the market, here's why:
My department issued P226R has CT grips which are mandatory per department policy. The laser took a dump the second time I shot a required qual with them. Since then I've been on extended leave with a injury and have yet to take the gun to my range guys to get a new set. I'm not impressed with it at all, and loathe the fact that it has become mandatory on our issued Sigs. It adds too much bulk to the grip and is just one more thing morons will depend on until it fails them at the worst possible moment.
Off duty I carry a 642 with old school, discontinued CT 205 grips and I absolutely love them. The plastic grip is easy to grab from the pocket and has a smaller concealable footprint than the newer rubber CT grips. It activates easily with a firm grip and is dead on at my 15 yard zero.
Since sights are practically non existent on J-Frames I consider CT grips a must. For larger, non pocket guns I personally will be sticking to a good sight set up that allows me to make fast, solid hits on target.
CTG came on my carry gun (Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry) & I like mine. I don't use the laser as a 'sight', I use the irons. However, it is a nice backup for if the sights would somehow get hit & become off zero & also if you had to shoot at anything in a non-ideal situation. Like if you were shooting around a corner & couldn't get a correct sight picture etc... Long story short, they're not necessary but it's nice to have options.
NikokurausuX9
04-11-11, 11:08
I carry CT grips on my 642 and have been experimenting with a Viridian C5L on my P2000SK and P30.
Like John Wayne 777, I'm waiting for CT to release a laser for the P30 and am hoping they'll make one for the sk. In the time being, the Viridian is working out OK. I've only had it for a couple of weeks and have put about 200 rounds through both guns with it on. It's held zero on them so far and the green is much more noticeable then the red on the CT. The obvious downsides are the activation and the way it mounts. As I mentioned, it's held zero so far but I have not put many rounds through it and I've been working on ways to activate the laser. Using a triggerfinger graze to hit the button on the way to the trigger seems to work best but is still not ideal.
For me, a laser is basically mandatory. I have mediocre vision with my glasses on and abysmal vision with them off. All of my pistols have XS Big Dots for sights and the laser is the next step. It's something that gives me accuracy at distance since without my glasses, I have difficulty using the method XS recommends for 25 yard accuracy.
One of the down sides I never see mentioned about green lasers is their brightness. Yes, they can bee seen in the daylight and picked up much quicker IMO overall. However, using it in a dark house at night can be fairly blinding. Not something that I have to worry about with my CT grips.
Bottom like to me is this, if there's a viable laser option for a gun that I own, then that gun will have a laser on it.
Hope this helps.
Cannon_fodder11b
04-11-11, 11:41
I don't have lasers on all my handguns, however the only thing I don't like then on is long guns/ar's. To fill the gap? Absolutely!
I had a green beam mounted on my M4 in Iraq. Loved it. Never engaged a target with it, but it sure as hell made the haj slam their brakes and shit themselves during dismounted patrols at night.
I was thinking of investing in a green laser for my Glock 22.
For those that don't know human eyes track green faster then red. Not to mention green laser are a bit brighter. Still not very good during day light hours but in hours of limited visibility the green lasers are so much brighter.
NikokurausuX9--Consider a slide mounted RDS like the RMR or Deltapoint; I find them to be better alternatives than Big Dots for many situations.
I strongly prefer green lasers over red.
I wouldn't mind running lasers on all my pistols, however, I have three problems with this:
-- I use a high grip and my strong side hand frequently obscures the CTC laser; in addition, my gloves ALWAYS obscure the laser.
-- I like pistols with ambi-safeties and this can be problematic with the CTC laser.
-- A couple of years ago, we saw a rather high failure rate with the CTC lasers on service pistols--they may be better now, unfortunately, I am not seeing as many, as a lot of guys I know have switched to slide mounted RDS's...and yes, it is OK to use both an RDS and laser.
NikokurausuX9
04-11-11, 15:44
DocGKR,
I really wanted to give that a try. However, after speaking with Mr. Bowie, it's apparently not possible with the HKs. If I remember correctly, he said that the slides were both too narrow at the top and too hollow within to mount a MRD.
You need a Glock, M&P, or even a 1911.
I shoot faster and more accurately with a laser in low light than with iron sights under ideal range conditions. It's a much more efficient way to get an aiming reference than iron sights and with it I can make shots I couldn't make under other circumstances.
My good friend Claude Werner who was lead instructor at the Rogers Shooting School for over five years audited my AMIS class back in January where we had several shooters using CT lasers on airsoft pistols. He made the remark to me after watching the evolutions that he believes a laser will make a hobbyist shooter competitive with an exceptional shooter given the same set of circumstances in a low light indoor gunfight. This corroborates my own observations as well especially if one is trying to manipulate a handheld light, open doors, and return fire while quickly looking to get small.
since the weather is getting better and ccw is an issue for me, I carry my ruger lcp with the crimson trace on it. its great for me since I'm 5'8" and weigh 170.
I've been using a Greenbeam laser on my M4 for about 4 years now and really like it at night for longer shots. It has been very reliable and has held up well.
I purchased an HK45CT about 3 months ago. It came with Meprolight night sights on it. I went ahead and added a CT LG-645 laser to it. I have never used lasers on pistols until now. When I was with the feds, we were prohibited from using them. I have gotten where I really like using the laser at night, or at the indoor range I shoot at. Since I'm north of 60, the red laser really helps the old eyes see better. My dad, who is 88, put a pair of CT's on his Glock 19 and it has really helped him.
I cannot see any downside to using them, at least for me anyway. The HK is fine with night sights but the laser seems to add to the package for me as far as being accurate at night. They're not for everyone, obviously, but for my dad and I they have really helped us be better and more accurate shots, especially in low-light situations. I'll put a pair on my P30 and P2000SK if they are ever developed for them.
DocGKR,
I really wanted to give that a try. However, after speaking with Mr. Bowie, it's apparently not possible with the HKs. If I remember correctly, he said that the slides were both too narrow at the top and too hollow within to mount a MRD.
Same issue with the HK USP Compacts.
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