View Full Version : I think I'm going to order a press tomorrow
I just finished building my AR. Went to the range and went through 200 rounds pretty fast. Now I want to go again and I can't afford the ammo! Here in MA I can only get ammo at ether walmart or the gun store.
So.... I have an extra $600 right now and I figure I would get a press. Right now I have 2 guns, 40s&w and .223. I think I will order the 40s&w for now and load a few thousand rounds to get the hang of it. Then I will go onto the 223.
As of right now. I think I will be ordering a dillon XL650
I have never reloaded, but I have a few buddies that do and they could show me the ropes, and I think if I go slow at first I think I will do ok.
I also have the lyman reloading handbook and have read it.
What's everyones thoughts on the XL650?
I like that it can make ammo fast, lots of add on's can be had, and their "no bs" warranty.
I think next week I will start stocking up on components as well.
I learned reloading on a Dillon 550b. Traditional wisdom says to learn on a single stage press and then move to a progressive like the Dillon 550 or 650. I don't regret learning on the Dillon. The learning curve is not too steep and if you are careful, read and comprehend instructions it is doable.
One advantage of the 650 over my 550 is 5 die stations rather than 4. This gives you the ability to have a "powder check die" which reduces the chance of no powder or double powder drop.
While I love the Dillon and its warranty I think for someone starting out there are lots of options with other machines.
www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/dillonLeeHornadyComparison.pdf
Read this pdf article. It offers a solid comparison between Dillon, Hornady and Lee machines.
The best advice I can give is check with local shooting clubs or gun shops that sell reloading supplies and see if there is anyone in the area who operates the same machine you want to buy. Most reloaders are friendly and helpful by nature. They won't mind you peaking over their shoulder as they load.
When questions arise you can see how they have solved the problem.
best of luck.
DOC
I would go with a 550b, unless you plan to get a case feeder and bullet feeder, then go with the 650 for sure.
If you dont have(or plan to buy) either of those things, than a 550b is just as fast and is cheaper.
However I have read that the 650 primer system is better than the 550b's.
I'm about halfway reading that article, very good read.
So far the hornady press looks very impressive if not better.
Down the road I will get the case feeder, along with other calibers, 9mm, 45acp, 308, ect.
I'm only 23 and so far have 2 guns, but more to come very soon, and I plan on shooting A lot. And also all my friends shoot, so I can make ammo for them when I get good at it.
Figure out how you are going to approach case trimming. That could influence your press selection decision.
Wow, is the case feeder for the hornady really $440?
So far the hornady press looks very impressive if not better.
It is not. I honestly have not read of one person who has been completely happy with their Hornady press. Every press I have read about has had some kind of problems. I dont know about their warranty or customer service, but I do know about Dillon's and theirs is top notch.
There is a reason that Dillon has the following that they do and Hornady has a very very small portion of the market.
It is not. I honestly have not read of one person who has been completely happy with their Hornady press. Every press I have read about has had some kind of problems. I dont know about their warranty or customer service, but I do know about Dillon's and theirs is top notch.
There is a reason that Dillon has the following that they do and Hornady has a very very small portion of the market.
I have not used the Hornady. I have sold Dillon XL 650 presses to a lot of Hornady LNL users who were dumping their Hornady. They got tired of playing beta tester to Hornady. The case feed system was one that they mentioned was hard to get working reliably.
It also kind of appears that maybe Hornady has gotten a lot of the bugs worked out using their customers as beta testers from some recent things I have read about the press.
Straight walled pistol will be a breeze, but seriously look into case prep for .223 before you take the plunge. If that is what's pushing you towards reloading, you might figure out you hate the case prep so much that you'd rather shoot Wolf!
Be sure to check out precision delta and montana gold for bulk .40 bullets.
Great suggestions guys, thanks.
For case prep, what do you guys use? I honestly don't see myself using the XL1000 right now, maybe in the future. I could get by with a redding one for now.
Can't wait to be part of the reloading forum!!
Oh and if anyone has stuff they are not using anymore, shoot me a pm, I need pretty much everything!
Straight walled pistol will be a breeze, but seriously look into case prep for .223 before you take the plunge. If that is what's pushing you towards reloading, you might figure out you hate the case prep so much that you'd rather shoot Wolf!
Amen to that. I won't buy commie ammo so I put up with prepping cases.
Shootist. What Method and equipment do you use to prep your cases?
Boxerglocker
04-12-11, 00:52
I've been loading pistol for a long time.... over 72K in the last 5 years. Mostly and only 9mm now, some .380 AUTO... but I've loaded .40, 10mm, .45 AUTO in the past.
I recently got into loading .223 and it was a big investment to get my XL650 dialed into do it. Aside from the conversion cost, the case prep really took a bite out of my wallet. I went all out and got a Dillon RT1200 trimmer -size/trim die with an extra 650 toohead. My goal being to prep brass as fast as possible, minimizing the actual time I have to hold the brass as the trimmer cuts so cleanly all you need to do is tumble in dry medial for about 20 minutes and the action cleans any remaining burrs (NO hand chamfer or debur)
Along with a Dillon Super swage those tools cost about $400, however I figure I'll recoup that in 6 months or so in my savings over buying XM193 as my current round count is about 500 a month.
Maryland_Shooter
04-12-11, 06:38
No experience with Dillon, some with Lee and I bought a LNL with a case feeder around Christmas. Couldn't be happier.
After loading about 4K rounds - lots of .45 and 6.8 SPC, the initial cost is recovered in savings.
If you get the LNL and want to do .40, you will need a special tube for the case feeder and Hornady will send it for free.
I am overjoyed with my LNL press.
I spend most of my time over at ARFCOM, but figured I'd drop by here and see what's what.
Hornady presses are a pain in the ass compared to Dillons in my experience. I've only used a progressive Hornady press at a local gun shop, where he let me reload until I got my own setup. He told me to get the Dillon and I'm glad I did. There are fewer tweaks and crap needed on the Dillon to switch between calibers, and it seems like small parts break less. Of course, the Hornady was being used by 4 or 5 guys so one of them could have easily been mucking things up, but the difference is pronounced to me.
If you think you will reload a lot, definitely go with a progressive reloader. You can use the XL650 essentially as a single stage press by limiting inputs if you want to learn that way, but reloading isn't a super complicated process. Prepping rifle brass is more difficult, which is why I usually buy brass.
You'll want 2 reloading references to cross-check loads--they do sometimes have typos.
All that said, Wolf and Brown Bear .223 is so inexpensive I tend to not reload 5.56 or .223. I generally reload calibers that are plain expensive to shoot.
Don't make "FAST" your priority. That's a good way to make bad mistakes.
Maryland_Shooter
04-12-11, 08:45
Hornady presses are a pain in the ass compared to Dillons in my experience. I've only used a progressive Hornady press at a local gun shop, where he let me reload until I got my own setup. He told me to get the Dillon and I'm glad I did. There are fewer tweaks and crap needed on the Dillon to switch between calibers, and it seems like small parts break less. Of course, the Hornady was being used by 4 or 5 guys so one of them could have easily been mucking things up, but the difference is pronounced to me.
If you think you will reload a lot, definitely go with a progressive reloader. You can use the XL650 essentially as a single stage press by limiting inputs if you want to learn that way, but reloading isn't a super complicated process. Prepping rifle brass is more difficult, which is why I usually buy brass.
You'll want 2 reloading references to cross-check loads--they do sometimes have typos.
All that said, Wolf and Brown Bear .223 is so inexpensive I tend to not reload 5.56 or .223. I generally reload calibers that are plain expensive to shoot.
Can you give some details on what was so much a PITA with the Hornady?
Can you give some details on what was so much a PITA with the Hornady?
Honestly it's been a few years now, and generally when something weird happened with it I grabbed the shop owner to fix it. It was his machine, and I didn't want to screw it up wprse. It seemed like some of the small parts weren't very durable, but again it could have been because a bunch of people were using it, any of which could have been doing something wrong. But the shop owner, who owned both the Hornady progressive press and Dillon XL650 told me to get the Dillon because it's less finicky, and mine certainly seems to hold up to that compared to the only Hornady I have experience with.
Someone who has themselves owned both would definitely be able to clear it up--sorry I don't have something more concrete for you, I'm more hoping you seek out a more informed opinion on the matter than giving you my own, since there are too many contingents for me to have one.
Sorry to muddy the waters, just don't want you to spend all that money on a press if it's not up to task.
Shootist. What Method and equipment do you use to prep your cases?
Primer Pocket Swaging: My Dillon 1050 has a built in swager. Works well after a lot of experience in adjusting. Primer pocket crimps can also be reamed in a drill press (or by hand), which would be more precise. Over Swage the brass and your primers fall out (AMHIK).
Primer Pocket Uniforming: K&M Uniforming tool from Precision Reloading in a battery powered screwdriver. Works great and very much worth the effort to prevent high primers with some brands of brass. I load a lot of IMI brass, which really needs this.
http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PRE&Product_Code=KMCS122&Category_Code=PRIME_POCK_CORR_KM
Dillon Electric Trimmer mounted in a tool-head for my 650 progressive. Wish I had the Giraud trimmer, but it was unknown or too expensive way back when I bough the Dillon. I resize in a single stage press and while still lubed, run them through the trimmer. Takes an extra few minutes per 100 since the trimmer is mounted on a progressive. (I don't use the trimmer for sizing, but a lot of people do.)
Case mouth De-burring Tool mounted in a pencil sharpener type fixture. Needed at the first trimming.
For brass dedicated to my precision loads, I'll also deburr the flash hole with a Sinclair tool.
Dillon vibratory tumbler for cleaning the brass and again to remove the sizing lube. I like Hornady One Shot lube the best.
So, Rick, I don't know if you're getting the gist, but that extra $600 you have in your pocket right now could easily get swallowed up in case prep alone.
I think you have a good plan in buying a press and starting off with pistol. If you go Dillon, and figure out you don't really enjoy reloading, you'll have a press that you can easily sell. They don't seem to lose much value.
If you do like it, and after "saving money" (the biggest joke in reloading, btw), you can make your decision to get into .223. It'll be a good chunk of change to invest in to make case prep less time consuming, but it lowers the biggest cost in reloading: time.
I own a LNL AP (the newer version, with the improved case-ejecting feature), and I will say that I haven't had any problems with it. I do not yet have the case feeder, so I can't say how it works, but the press does run smoothly once everything is good to go. I did notice that the primer feed does not feed Winchester primers reliably. It seems like the anvil on Winchester primers sticks up higher than the anvils on CCI, Remington, or Federal primers. That's a flaw that needs fixed, but I don't use Winchester primers, so no loss for me.
If I do buy another progressive, it will be a toss up between Dillon and Hornady. They both make excellent presses, it just comes down to personal preference.
Overall though, I would say that Dillon is better. By how much, I don't know.
My personal experience with reloading is that it's not all THAT cheap and there is a big difference between doing it because you ENJOY doing it and doing it as a necessary chore.
I actually enjoy the case prep, I find it meditative...
Thank you guys for all your input. I'm headed over to the bank to put some money on my card.
I think I will go for the XL, I like the features of the LnL and the size, it looks a bit bigger. But a few of my buddies (one 2 miles away) have the XL. So if I get messed up or break something I'm not totally lost.
I think i will do fine starting on a progressive press, I am pretty machanicaly inclined.
I think next week I will start buying more of the essentials. I'll order the press now before I blow it on a 1911.
Oh..
And I think I will end up enjoying it. I bought the Lyman 49th reloading handbook last summer and read it 2 times now. I like the idea that I could custom tailor loads. And be able to shoot quality ammo in my guns!
This may be heretical, but I don't do a huge elaborate case prep dance with 223/556. My goal is to not spend lots of extra time but to crank out rounds for practice and plinking and training.
If I have military brass, it needs to be swaged once. I have a Dillon swager and I have a 1050 to do that, so I use one or the other. The only other thing I do is trim.
So, if using the 650 to load I set up the first toolhead, which has a decap die, a Dillon size/trim die, and a lyman m-die set to only just stick the first stage into the case mouth (not to the flare part). I lube up the cases, dump them in the case feeder, and go. This sizes and trims (the Dillon trim die does both sizing and trimming).
Tumble to get the lube off.
Then, if they are military cases that are not yet swaged I will run them through the Dillon swager.
Then I run them through the XL 650 on a normal toolhead set up the normal way except station one is a decap die instead of a sizing die.
It is two passes instead of 1 like on pistols but it is not full of extra steps and stuff that in most cases is not necessary, at least with training ammo.
If using the 1050 I use the XL 650 to do the same size/trim step as above, and then tumble and straight to the 1050 and run it through a pass there.
That is it.
I have an RCBS X-die small base sizing die on order which should be here this week. I am going to try that with some more "precision" type ammo on an XL 650 toolhead to see if I can eliminate the trim pass.
I have one brand of brass that has shown up in my mixed brass I have been buying -- some Hornady 223 brass -- where the primers don't seat all the way. Those I toss aside and will some day ream them. In general though I don't do any of the reaming / flash hole cleaning/deburring or whatever. For me, for training ammo, it is not worth the effort or time. I am going to start to do more "precision" loads and I will probably skip all that too. I may sacrifice a small amount of precision in the loads doing that but I don't care. I am not loading to win benchrest competitions or any competition at all. If I can still hit the man sized target or the steel plate at some far distance most of the time I will be happy.
I want to eliminate extra steps and time wasters that have minimal effects on the ammo. (I am not saying they have no effect, but if I lose 1/2 MOA in precision that is OK for me for what I am doing). On training ammo I don't care at all. On the "precision" stuff it should be precise enough for me (time will tell -- up to now most of my 223/556 lately has been training type ammo).
Take that as a heretical view.
It's not so much about saving money as it is about affording to shoot high volume. Live ammo and lots of it are at the top of the list if you want a good skill-set.
Start with pistol using carbide dies in a Dillon progressive. Clean the brass and load it. No other case prep is required. A powder scale, calipers, reloading manual(s) and a chamber check gauge are necessary additions to the loader, however.
A 550 is no more complex than a single stage - just faster. Load one at a time until you get everything worked out. Just don't double charge a case. Six months to a year later you will be ready to move on, if desired.
It seems that everyone who starts with a progressive other than a Dillon eventually sells what they started with and gets a Dillon. I own a Dillon 550 and a Dillon 1050, but I think the 650 is a good compromise between cost and efficiency.
Well I just called Brian at http://www.brianenos.com and placed my order. Got free shipping and it should be here beginning of next week!
Now I need to start making my reloading room!
Well I just called Brian at http://www.brianenos.com and placed my order. Got free shipping and it should be here beginning of next week!
Now I need to start making my reloading room!
Sears occasionally has good sales on smaller work benches. I got a 6' Craftsman bench with lighting and 3 drawers for $100 a couple years ago when I bought my press. Of course I had to put about 10 coats of varnish on it so the surface didn't feel like crap, but I think it was still a good deal.
My advice would be to take whatever space you think you'll need and double+ it. I wish I had about 3x the space I do right now so I could really organize my reloading stuff and have a more functional area. I think when I buy a house I'll be building work benches in place all around the basement if it's unfinished. You can never have enough cabinets, shelving, bench space...
Well I just called Brian at http://www.brianenos.com and placed my order. Got free shipping and it should be here beginning of next week!
Now I need to start making my reloading room!
I built a work bench that is unbelievably solid and attractive for about 50-60 bucks.
I bought a sheet of hardwood plywood (don't remember what type of wood it was), real plywood, not OSB. It was about 30 bucks or so at Home Depot. I then ripped the sheet down into the size I wanted for the bench, took three pieces cut to the same size, and glued and screwed them together, screws from the bottom. I sanded the edges and stained it. On the wall side I used a piece of angle iron bolted to the wall/screwed to the bench, and for the supports I used 1 1/4" black gas pipe. They make surface mount attachments for black pipe, you screw the pipe into one side and the other has screw holes to attach to the surface. I had home depot cut and thread the gas pipe to the length I wanted.
It ended up looking like something I paid someone to build, it is rock solid with no movement, and doesn't look nearly as stupid as the giant 2x4/2x6 contraption I had been using for years. If you have any movement in your bench it is going to affect the consistency of your ammunition.
For the record, I have a LNL, but if I hadn't gotten it so cheap off of craigslist a few years ago I'd have gone with a Dillon. Before that a Lee single stage press met my needs.
Sounds nice. I have a simple work bench right now, I'll probably use that.
My buddy down the street brought his 650 by for me to check out. It's really nice. Not too tough to get the hang of. I had to get use to pressing the handle all the way forward to seat the primer but I got the hang of it pretty fast.
I can't wait for mine to come in.
This may be heretical, but I don't do a huge elaborate case prep dance with 223/556. My goal is to not spend lots of extra time but to crank out rounds for practice and plinking and training.
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Not heretical at all. The only case prep work I do for my ARs is to full length size, and trim to length. I keep my brass in lots, that way I know I can reload it X number times before I trim it again.
I've tried more elaborate prep work, but I didn't notice any difference accuracy wise. Anyhow, I want to shoot my ARs more than I load for them.
While I haven't loaded anything on my press yet, I did pick up a Hornady LnL off a fellow forum member from the equipment exchange for an EXCELLENT DEAL!!
It looks really nice & is brand new. I read that some early LnL presses had issues, but they have all pretty much been worked out now.
I got to work on getting a work bench setup for mine. I was thinking about just building one in a week or 2. I'm still working on planning out my dies that I need & case prep setup for .223 loading, but everything is starting to come along smoothly.
I really don't understand the whole waste money on a single stage press, then later get a progressive. I haven't even started the process yet, but I understand everything pretty dang well, without even touching anything yet. I figure I will do AT LEAST 500 rounds one at a time on the press & only putting one cartridge on the press at a time, allows it to operate EXACTLY like a single stage, but then once you get the process down, you can operate your progressive as a progressive.
I wouldn't even bother running one at a time, I just ran it slow at first. Pay attention, and it was a breeze. Each time you place a bullet look to see powder. One thing that is nice about the 650 vs 550. The 650 looks like it is impossible to get a double charge. When you bring the handle back the plate rotates and the powder measure is reset.
Whereas the 550 you need to index it yourself, your reloading, your wife calls, ok your going to late for dinner, crank the handle again but forget to index, double charge.
Maybe its just me, but I think it is easier to start on the progressive.
Watch me have a bunch of problems when I start to go full steam.
VirginiaTactical
04-13-11, 08:22
I wouldn't even bother running one at a time, I just ran it slow at first. Pay attention, and it was a breeze. Each time you place a bullet look to see powder. One thing that is nice about the 650 vs 550. The 650 looks like it is impossible to get a double charge. When you bring the handle back the plate rotates and the powder measure is reset.
Whereas the 550 you need to index it yourself, your reloading, your wife calls, ok your going to late for dinner, crank the handle again but forget to index, double charge.
Maybe its just me, but I think it is easier to start on the progressive.
Watch me have a bunch of problems when I start to go full steam.
I have only been reloading for 20 months on a Dillon 650, and I have had tons of problems. Not because the press is bad or anything, just small stuff that will happen from time to time. You will learn to fight through it and fix it. Sometimes a .40 case gets in my casefeeder and it mixes with my 9mm. Then I have to clear the tube out that feeds the case and that slows me down. Sometimes a piece of military 9mm gets into the mix and the primer wont seat all the way into it .. sometimes the cases are bad and they wont pass case gauge. All this stuff does happen from time to time ... Ive loaded 20K rounds in the last 20 months and I have had my small issues, but honestly I am extremal satisfied with my press.
I've had a 650 for about 20 years. It can be very cantankerous at times - that's why I recommend the 550.
30 cal slut
04-14-11, 07:17
even if you have dillons and rockchuckers, there's always room for another fairly inexpensive tool to help speed things up.
i use the lee hand press ($30) with the lee universal depriming and decapping die ($10) with a lee universal shell holder kit ($25) to remove primers.
it's cheap, and a VERY fast tool to pop the primers out. you can even take it to the range. he'll, i've even taken it to the office with a bag full of pistol brass. :p i find it's nice to pop out the primers before cleaning the cases, to get the primer pockets clean.
even if you have dillons and rockchuckers, there's always room for another fairly inexpensive tool to help speed things up.
i use the lee hand press ($30) with the lee universal depriming and decapping die ($10) with a lee universal shell holder kit ($25) to remove primers.
it's cheap, and a VERY fast tool to pop the primers out. you can even take it to the range. he'll, i've even taken it to the office with a bag full of pistol brass. :p i find it's nice to pop out the primers before cleaning the cases, to get the primer pockets clean.
I do pretty much the same thing with a really cheap smart reloader press. I set this up before I got my dillon so I could pop the primers and swage the pockets on surplus brass.
even if you have dillons and rockchuckers, there's always room for another fairly inexpensive tool to help speed things up.
I think you mean to help slow things down. Adding an extra step will always slow things down. ;)
i use the lee hand press ($30) with the lee universal depriming and decapping die ($10) with a lee universal shell holder kit ($25) to remove primers.
it's cheap, and a VERY fast tool to pop the primers out. you can even take it to the range. he'll, i've even taken it to the office with a bag full of pistol brass. :p i find it's nice to pop out the primers before cleaning the cases, to get the primer pockets clean.
Why do you care if the primer pockets are "clean"? It has no effect on accuracy for pistols and most rifles. Maybe benchrest guys see some difference.
I read an article a while back where they did a double blind test on 45acp. Some they cleaned the primer pockets, some they did not. No noticeable difference between loads.
I really don't understand the whole waste money on a single stage press, then later get a progressive. I haven't even started the process yet, but I understand everything pretty dang well, without even touching anything yet.
Well, this is some good advice. Imagine how helpful you'll be after you "start the process."
A lot of people have single stage presses for various reasons. Just one is for bullet sizing...but you already knew that, right?
A lot of people have single stage presses for various reasons. Just one is for bullet sizing...but you already knew that, right?
What kind of "bullet sizing" are you doing?
30 cal slut
04-16-11, 15:00
Why do you care if the primer pockets are "clean"?
1) anal retentiveness on the part of the reloader
2) at longer ranges, it does make a difference in rifle cartridges.
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