View Full Version : Lightweight build not so lightweight, suggestions??
Hi all, after months of lurking... finally a post! I am working on a second AR build. The first was a bit heavy so I decided to go lightweight this time. The only problem is, my lightweight build is not so lightweight. Im at 8 lbs unloaded... Below are the specs, any suggestions on where I went wrong :confused:
Lower:
calguns lower (I think JD machine manufactures them)
DPMS LPK
Std Buffer assembly
Magpul CTR
Magpul MOE grip (NOT miad)
Stag BCG
Stag Chargin handle
Upper:
Bravo Company 14.5 lightweight midength gas
Std Triangle sight
DD Omega 9.0 rail (drop in, fits existing delta assembly)
ARMS Low profile rear BUIS
Eotech 517
I'll attach pics later.
Thanks in advance for the help!
An M4 weighs about 6.8lbs. Eo-tech weighs almost a pound. 9.0 Omega rail is about 4 ounces more than a carbine plastic handguard. So yeah, that is lightweight :p
Lightweight to me always meant more that the weight is centered in the middle. 20" rifles have a usually want to nose dive forward. LW barrel is only 5-6 ounces lighter than a regular government profile.
The Omega and the chosen Eotech model are both on the heavy end of the spectrum.
Here is a little calculator someone who posts here made (was trying to find it before) to figure out weight of stuff before you buy it, or to enter weights. If you take off EoTech and put on a plastic handguard should save about 1.3 lbs.
http://www.545ar.com/calc.html
oh... well that all makes sense. i know the eotech is a total buzzkill on weight. ended up shifting all the way rearward to maintain good balance. btw, that calculator is awesome! i will def be bookmarking.
thanks for your help guys!
1. Get rid of the Magpul stock and go back to the original Colt old style CAR stock. I did this on all my short fighting guns last year and I don't know what the hell I was thinking messing around with these other stocks. My SPR/precision/DMR type guns still have enchanced stocks for better cheek weld/shouldering, but all the shorty fighters have them removed.
2. Go to regular handguards and get rid of the rail. Use a front sight base mount to mount your light.
3. Get rid of the EO tech and get an aimpoint micro in an ADM mount.
2. Go to regular handguards and get rid of the rail. Use a front sight base mount to mount your light.
Depending on the combination of parts, this isn't the lightest solution. The problem is that the FSB weighs a lot, comparatively speaking, as do most of the FSB light mounts. A shaved FSB or low-profile gas block with a rail-mounted front sight on a Troy TRX Extreme rail would be lighter overall.
FWIW, the Omega 9.0 weighs LESS than the Cavarms mid-length handguards.
Code3Patriot
04-12-11, 12:27
1. Get rid of the Magpul stock and go back to the original Colt old style CAR stock. I did this on all my short fighting guns last year and I don't know what the hell I was thinking messing around with these other stocks. My SPR/precision/DMR type guns still have enchanced stocks for better cheek weld/shouldering, but all the shorty fighters have them removed.
Speaking of CAR stocks, I've been searching high and low for them recently and have been unable to find them anywhere. Is there a good vendor to order them from? Or is it something you have to find for sale second hand?
Thanks.
If your really on a quest for weight reduction you can also look at the ACE ultra lite stock. That might be able to save you a bit more as well as the other suggestions listed above.
FChen17213
04-12-11, 12:40
I am also looking for an old school CAR stock. Those things were neat and light. I found one in my closet from some Colt long long ago. Does anyone have a good source for them? I know the really old ones were aluminum and are harder than crap to find unless you buy an entire Colt SP-1 carbine. I have found a few on gunbroker but they've all had the commercial dimensions. It's hard to find a mil-spec one.
Depending on the combination of parts, this isn't the lightest solution. The problem is that the FSB weighs a lot, comparatively speaking, as do most of the FSB light mounts. A shaved FSB or low-profile gas block with a rail-mounted front sight on a Troy TRX Extreme rail would be lighter overall.
I know but I don't like the Troy TRX
Odie Dozer
04-12-11, 13:27
I am also looking for an old school CAR stock. Those things were neat and light. I found one in my closet from some Colt long long ago. Does anyone have a good source for them? I know the really old ones were aluminum and are harder than crap to find unless you buy an entire Colt SP-1 carbine. I have found a few on gunbroker but they've all had the commercial dimensions. It's hard to find a mil-spec one.
This?
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Mil-Spec-M4-Stock-p/stock%20only%20m4%20black%20-%20gen2.htm
BushmasterFanBoy
04-12-11, 13:34
This?
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Mil-Spec-M4-Stock-p/stock%20only%20m4%20black%20-%20gen2.htm
I believe he's talking about the old kind with the sling loop on top.
This?
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Mil-Spec-M4-Stock-p/stock%20only%20m4%20black%20-%20gen2.htm
I believe he's talking about the old kind with the sling loop on top.
Yes, I think he is talking about THIS:
http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr312/Luke_Y/Junk/pix348260563.jpg
nice suggestions. as i just invested in the dd9 omega... its staying on. car stock looks nice, anyone have much experience with them? been salavating over aimpoint micros... bit out of my range at the moment.
oh and i triew a m.i.fsb mount on my heavy franken ar15, and it was way too heavy... the plastic mounts didnt seem like a good idea to me that close to the gas block.
i will post some photos after work
1. Get rid of the Magpul stock and go back to the original Colt old style CAR stock. I did this on all my short fighting guns last year and I don't know what the hell I was thinking messing around with these other stocks. My SPR/precision/DMR type guns still have enchanced stocks for better cheek weld/shouldering, but all the shorty fighters have them removed.
2. Go to regular handguards and get rid of the rail. Use a front sight base mount to mount your light.
Regular handguards, ribbed midlength like the cav arms ones, weight 2 vounces less than the DD Omega. CAR stock is 4 oz I think, http://www.m-aparts.com/productsDetail.asp?id=1072
FChen17213
04-12-11, 15:50
That's an awesome weight calculator. Of course we wish that it had a few more rail options, sights, stocks, etc etc, but overall it's a great reference. I didn't know how much my AR weighed until I used it. I'm surprised that my DDM4 V1 weighs like 8 lbs with a T-1 and X300.
I think I'm going to try to go lighter with my next build....maybe DD MRF tube, lightweight barrel, X300, old school stock, and T-1. No VFGs or AFGs.
I think someone should sticky the weight calculator.
ForTehNguyen
04-12-11, 17:41
strange my DD 16" LW middy upper, MOE stock, 12" Omega X rail, Eotech 512 weighs setup 7lbs 6.6oz on my postal scale
my 16" govt middy with ACS stock, DD Lite 12.0, eotech 512 weighs a little over 8 lbs
Ok, so I used a scale at work (After everyone left of course ) and the weight is 7lbs 8oz. My scale at home was wrong for sure.
Thank you for the suggestions, I'm definitely going to check out the ACE LW Skeleton stocks when I build a lower to go with this upper. Maybe a t-1 too to shave some weight.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm181/emojohn1/IMG_0157.jpg
FChen17213
04-12-11, 22:38
Well, I don't think we should get too obsessed with a few ounces of total weight difference. I am talking about loaded with 62 gr green tip if I remember correctly. I don't think you're doing too bad if the gun weighs 8-9 lbs. fully loaded with 30 rounds. Sure, it'd kick ass to have a 6.5 to 7 lb gun fully loaded, but unless you don't run a light and use irons, I just don't see it happening. If you have a white light, optic, and PEQ-15, I just don't see it happening even if you use a T-1 and pistol light like a X300.
Why did you have to wait until everyone left work to weigh the rifle? Lol, j/k. I know....in our society today people freak out at the sight of a gun. Long ago I went to a friend's house with an AK to show him. I walked from my vehicle about 30 yards in the open into his apartment with an AK in plain view....no magazine, muzzle downward with my arm partly hiding the gun the best I could. Some guys saw me, freaked out, and dialed 911. The police arrived in minutes. They said that nothing was illegal, but told me and my friend that it "wasn't a good idea" to have any sort of firearms in plain view since most people tend to freak out.
In some places the cops "strongly urge you to take a ride" first and ask questions later. =/
7lbs isnt all that bad, a Garand weighs 12 unloaded. There's not way to really lose more without going to an SBR and the loaded mags always weigh the same. You will notice balance right away though, esp shooting offhand. Anything that's nose heavy will "feel" heavier than something that's well balanced.
That's actually a really nice carbine that's on the lighter end. I would just shoot it, and not sweat it.
Not directed at the OP, but I predict this weight obsession to get completely ridiculous within the next year or so. Probably to the point of being dangerous/stupid.
lol your story cracks me up... shame on the system for not educating folks about firearms. some fellow in my church band used to shoot .22 competitions for his highschool! and actually my work is ok about it, but as the boss i try and set a good example. honestly i dont really want them bringing guns to work! esp since i tick them off so much LOL. one of my guys built an ar15 after seeing mine and another is talking about buying a scoped deer rifle too. mind you, this is in commiefornia!
your right, i guess my expectations were unrealistic. handles real nice anyhow. and isnt so front heavy like my other setup. seriously thx for all of the posters, it was all helpful. i will def incorporate some of the ideas on my next build.
That's actually a really nice carbine that's on the lighter end. I would just shoot it, and not sweat it.
Not directed at the OP, but I predict this weight obsession to get completely ridiculous within the next year or so. Probably to the point of being dangerous/stupid.
ouch! youre breaking my heart. im not THAT obsessed, just had some unrealistic figures in my head on weight :)
FChen17213
04-12-11, 23:06
Yes, I completely agree. I think this obsession with lightweight will eventually go extreme. A few years ago it was putting as much garbage as you could on your AR. Now it's swung back the other way. I hate to say it, but I've seen enough freaking "fashion trends" in the AR market that come and go that it makes me sick. VFGs, AFGs, ultra bright lights, mid-length systems, etc etc. I'm not saying that all of these are bad ideas either. Many are great ideas that are here to stay. Examples would be mid-length systems, low profile gas blocks, and pistol lights mounted to carbines. At least I suspect that those are things that will stay around. Only time will tell. I'll be the first to also admit that I've built a gun to many of these trends. Then a few months later, people have a new trendy build. Honestly speaking most of the setups work fine. It's the shooter more than the gun 99% of the time...and if you're a crappy shooter like me, no amount of cool gear can make up for it. :D
I remember the last great lightweight craze right before the ban ended. People were buying CAV-15 lowers and pencil barrels and Bushmaster Carbon-15s -.-
The Archangel
04-12-11, 23:28
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm181/emojohn1/IMG_0157.jpg
Real paint job & very nice rifle overall. I think the sticker may have added a couple of pounds. Try taking it off. :D
Not directed at the OP, but I predict this weight obsession to get completely ridiculous within the next year or so. Probably to the point of being dangerous/stupid.
I think this is an excellent point, and one that bears further discussion, but if I may suggest we move that discussion to a more appropriate location than this thread where the OP is looking for feedback on his particular carbine not a general theoretical discussion.
I suggest this thread. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=46405)
ouch! youre breaking my heart. im not THAT obsessed, just had some unrealistic figures in my head on weight :)
Yeah, don't get too wrapped around the axle about weight. 7.5lbs is pretty lightweight in my opinion. Especially for something with a railed handguard and optic.
It looks like a really nice shooter. Now go have fun with it!
I would say that Eotech and that drop in rail is keeping the weight up. Here would be my ideal light weight build (if I ever had the money to do it)
BCM or DD 14.5 mid pinned LW upper
DD or Noveske flared lower
Troy, VTAC or new DD 9" tube-rail
Aimpoint T-1
MBUIS front and rear
TLR-1 light
MOE Stock
MOE Grip
Vickers sling
I will say this...
Chasing aggregate numbers is the wrong way 'round. Go shoot the gun. If it seems too heavy in actual use, look for parts that may substitute for the parts you have but offer the same functionality at a reduced weight. But worrying that "my gun weighs x.y ounces" is the wrong way to look at things.
Additionally, keep balance in mind. I can hand you two object of identical aggregate weight (lets say a hammer and a shovel) but with the short handle of the hammer you'll tell me that the shovel weighs more if both are held at the handle end.
I will say this...
Chasing aggregate numbers is the wrong way 'round. Go shoot the gun. If it seems too heavy in actual use, look for parts that may substitute for the parts you have but offer the same functionality at a reduced weight. But worrying that "my gun weighs x.y ounces" is the wrong way to look at things.
Additionally, keep balance in mind. I can hand you two object of identical aggregate weight (lets say a hammer and a shovel) but with the short handle of the hammer you'll tell me that the shovel weighs more if both are held at the handle end.
excellent point. from backpacking, I know that it's not the absolute weight that you carry (to a point...) but how you distribute that weight that affects you.
good balance is more critical in operating the weapon than overall weight. the difference measured in ounces seems a silly thing to obsess over...
All of the above noted. Thanks for the input... I'm not disappointed at all... the gun feels really good, esp since it isn't front heavy. I just had an unrealistic weight expectation. My other upper is stupid front heavy.
After perusing the forums more, I'm thinking this thread should have gone under custom build huh? Didnt see that until after I posted. New member here. Can you move it or no?
Thanks for the compliments too! Appreciate the input, and will definitely incorporate some of your ideas into the next lower build.
lethal dose
04-13-11, 20:37
Sell the rail and eotech then buy an rmr/mrds/micro and a set of gi handguards.
ForTehNguyen
04-13-11, 21:28
plastic handguards arent as light as people think.
Omega 9: 9.8oz
MOE middy handguards: 8.74oz
standard middy handguards: 9.7oz
I'll take the rail please
Nightvisionary
04-14-11, 08:19
In some places the cops "strongly urge you to take a ride" first and ask questions later. =/
7lbs isnt all that bad, a Garand weighs 12 unloaded. There's not way to really lose more without going to an SBR and the loaded mags always weigh the same. You will notice balance right away though, esp shooting offhand. Anything that's nose heavy will "feel" heavier than something that's well balanced.
An M1 Garand weighs 9.5 lbs not 12 lbs.
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