Remington or Ruger?

[Black Jack]

Remington or Ruger?

Given the choice between the Remington 700 and the Ruger M77, which one would you choose, and why?

This will be in .308 Win.

[PlatoCATM]

You want precision? Remington 700. I've never heard of a precision ruger 77, and there must be a reason for it. The only 77 I've dealt with was definitely more of a hunting rifle.

With the 700 you will have far more options as far as aftermarket parts built specifically for precision shooting from stocks to scope mounts and triggers. Not to mention the number of gunsmiths who know the ins and outs of the platform.

What is your draw to the ruger?

[orkan]

Rem700.

... its not even debatable. Ruger can make some nice hunting rifles... sometimes.

[R-762wt]

Remington... :suicide2:

[austinN4]

Ruger would probably be one of my last choices.

In no particular order:

Remington
Savage
Howa
Tika

All much better than Ruger IMO.

[Rob Haught]

I own several of each. I dont consider the Ruger a precision rifle, only as a hunting rifle. My precision rifles are Remington factory or Rem 700 actions. If you are on a budget, the Savage is a decent rifle, if you have a few more coins the Sako TRG is an excellent rifle out of the box. Its hard to beat a Rem 700 PSS though.

Rob

[Dobie]

Remington 700 in a heavy barrel config is one small ragged hole at 100 yards with factory Federal Gold Medal. Hard to beat for the price with both rifle and ammo off the rack.

[Suwannee Tim]

Until Mr. Picatinny invented his wonderful rail I was a big fan of the Ruger scope mounting system. I am now using Picatinny rails on all the guns I can use it on and have no more reason to own a Ruger. That's good because I have had a lot of disappointments with Rugers, particularly poor accuracy. For example, a 77-22 that shot 6 to 8 inches at 50 yards. I sent it back they test fired it and declared that it met Ruger accuracy specifications. The only Ruger bolt actions remaining in my possession have top quality aftermarket barrels. The only thing that would change my opinion was if I suddenly got interested in Ruger Compact Magnums which seem very interesting particularly if you are interested in medium to large bore rifles.

[fn1889m]

I assume you are looking at a tactical/precision rifle.

I have two Remingtons in .308. It is the mid-point for heavy barreled rifles. There are better and lesser rifles. But Remingtons are consistent enough to become a point of reference. There are better rifles, but they cost more. They are probably your best bet for a first HB/tactical rifle in .308. They are easy to rebarrel, and the receivers are consistent. The Howa is a little cheaper, but very similar. I don't think you can go wrong with either. (The Howa is on page 51 of the current CDNN catalog, and is a very good deal if you are on a budget.)

I have had one Ruger .308 varmint rifle. It was an older Ruger, and actually shot pretty well. Or maybe I shot better with it. I liked the stock and barrel profile - not a fan of super heavy barrels. But you are more likely to get a consistently accurate rifle with a Remington 700 if you are staying with a factory barrel. People look down at Ruger, just as they looked down at Savage in the past. I don't think it is justified. Rugers do take more work to get them to the same place. But there is nothing inherently wrong with them.

My preference for a .308 is the FN with a 20" barrel and claw extractor. Look at page 44 of the current CDNN catalog. It was about the same price as the Remington. I have it set up as an F-Class traditional rifle. Very heavy, long barrels have their place, but I am just a weekend warrior with a single stage press. If I only had one rifle it would be the FN.

Anyway, I would look at the FN, Remington, and Howa in that order for an entry .308 tactical/target rifle.

[kmrtnsn]

Get the FN, cut the barrel to 18" and thread it for a muzzle device.

[ucrt]

'

In my experience, if you get a Ruger that shoots great (unlikely)...good for you, if it doesn't shoot good...sell it.

If you get a Remington that doesn't shoot good (not likely), there are several inexpensive fixes (bed, float, adjust trigger, etc) that can improve the accuracy.

In short, I've been able to successfully improve the accuracy of Remongton 700's but not Rugers.

But maybe it's just me...

.

[kittyhawk]

I say Remington, I have Ruger M77 in .270 that is my go to Deer hunting gun I had a trigger job done and the action glass bedded and the barrel free floated and it still will only shoot 1.5" groups. Now my wifes Remington 700 BDL out of the box will shoot .75-1.00" all day long.
So from now on it's Remington for us.

Dave

[ChrisG19]

Remington or Ruger?

Given the choice between the Remington 700 and the Ruger M77, which one would you choose, and why?

This will be in .308 Win.

Remington 700. Considerable after-market support and are more consistent from one gun to the next than the Rugers in my limited experience.

[Black Jack]

Thanks for all the feedback!
Savage... Yes, I have looked at them. They do have a reputation for being a low cost, accurate rifle. Unfortunately, I just do not like the trigger.

Yes, accuracy is important to me, but I am not looking for a “heavy” barrel. Also, durability and reliability are important. This needs to be something that can be “used and abused”, so to speak, while still being able to maintain its reliability and accuracy.

Since I can not afford to shoot .308 a whole lot, I am beginning to look into reloading. I doubt that I would be able to afford to put more than a couple hundred rounds thru it per year without reloading.

I also do not plan on extensive after market mods. I will be putting a sling on it, mounting a scope on it and I “might” have backup iron sights installed, but that is probably about it. I will probably go with an unattached tripod rather than an attached bipod.

I do like the idea of the Mauser type bolt on the Ruger, but the Remington does seem to have a better reputation for “out of the box” accuracy. I'm not sure how much the different bolt types will impact durability and reliability.

I also have heard that the Remington has a slightly heavier/thicker barrel than the Ruger. If so, is it heavier enough to lessen the barrel harmonics and give better accuracy for follow-up shots? I doubt that I would be taking any shots beyond 400 yards, so even 1 – 1 ½ MOA would be acceptable IF it is able to hold this level of accuracy for successive shots, even after the barrel heats up.

Right now, I am still undecided, but beginning to lean towards the Remington. I know the military has based sniper rifles on the 700 for some time and that, in and of itself, speaks some towards it's durability. I also like the availability of after market support that is available for it.

Thanks.

[orkan]

There is nothing a rem700 can't do, that a ruger can. There are many things a rem700 can do, that a ruger can't. Does that help?

If you want repeatable reliable accuracy without spending thousands on a custom rifle or AIAE or AW... then you need to buy a rem700 SPS tactical with a 20" barrel in 308win.

Then take that rifle and put it in a good aftermarket stock like an HS Precision, Bell & Carlson, McMillan, or Manners. Have it bedded by a competent smith.

Put a timney trigger in it, top it off with some good base, rings, and glass... and you'll want for nothing for about 6,000rnds.

[fn1889m]

Since I can not afford to shoot .308 a whole lot, I am beginning to look into reloading. I doubt that I would be able to afford to put more than a couple hundred rounds thru it per year without reloading.

I do like the idea of the Mauser type bolt on the Ruger, but the Remington does seem to have a better reputation for “out of the box” accuracy. I'm not sure how much the different bolt types will impact durability and reliability.

I also have heard that the Remington has a slightly heavier/thicker barrel than the Ruger. If so, is it heavier enough to lessen the barrel harmonics and give better accuracy for follow-up shots? I doubt that I would be taking any shots beyond 400 yards, so even 1 – 1 ½ MOA would be acceptable IF it is able to hold this level of accuracy for successive shots, even after the barrel heats up.

Reloading opens up a whole new level of accuracy for a reasonable cost. But it is not necessarily cheaper. But I think it is part and parcel of accurate shooting. 15 accurate shots beat 100 spray/and/pray shots.

The FN has a Mauser-type extractor.

Finally, I don't think you will be satisfied with 1.5 MOA. Not with a good rifle. I agree that the Rem. 700 tactical rifle is a good choice. A med-heavy barrel - 20" - is a good compromise.

[PlatoCATM]

It sounds like you want more of a trunk gun than a precision rifle? I guess we shouldn't have assumed you wanted a precision rifle from the get-go. But now you are saying you want something cheap, lightweight, and not expected to be shot a whole lot.

Have you looked into the Stevens line by Savage? They are savage barreled actions with a non-accu-trigger in a cheap stock. The barrels have a hunting contour rather than precision/varmint contour. You can drop them into a 110 action stock if you want something nicer than the OEM.

Put the money saved down on glass, ammo, or reloading eqpt so you can actully shoot the rifle.

[orkan]

Yup... that pretty much says it.

[titsonritz]

Remington without question.

[Black Jack]

It sounds like you want more of a trunk gun than a precision rifle? I guess we shouldn't have assumed you wanted a precision rifle from the get-go. But now you are saying you want something cheap, lightweight, and not expected to be shot a whole lot.

Have you looked into the Stevens line by Savage? They are savage barreled actions with a non-accu-trigger in a cheap stock. The barrels have a hunting contour rather than precision/varmint contour. You can drop them into a 110 action stock if you want something nicer than the OEM.

Put the money saved down on glass, ammo, or reloading eqpt so you can actully shoot the rifle.


OK, I guess I should step back and ask you what “Precision” means to you. (never mind the fact that I never mentioned the word, this just happens to be the only place ti discuss accurate bolt action rifles on the Forum).

No I am not looking for a 1000 yard rifle.

Yes, I am looking for a 300- 400 yard rifle.

No, I am not looking for a bench rest rifle.

Yes, I am looking for a rifle that can be used someplace other than the range. That means that it needs to be able to be carried and that it will not stop working if it gets dropped or nocked on the ground.

No, I am not looking for a target competition rifle.

Yes, am looking for an accurate rifle. I do not need to worry about getting a perfect score and have all rounds covered by a quarter at 300 yards, but I do need to worry about hitting the right target and not hitting the wrong target.

No I am not looking for something that is “cheap, lightweight, and not expected to be shot a lot”. Also, as mentioned, I have already looked at the Savage product line and have already discounted them from my short list (I have also looked at Browning, Winchester, Howa, Weatherby, and several other brands that I have also eliminated from my list for one reason or another), thus the question of “Remington or Ruger?” I have already narrowed my decision down to these two brands.

I am looking for something that is a good reliable and accurate rifle that I will be shooting as much as I can afford to shoot.

What I asked, and am looking for, for was input on these two product lines because there are some very knowledgeable people on this site and I value their input.

What I am not looking for is somebody to redefine my requirements based on words that I did not use.

[orkan]

Well aren't you just a peach.

Your question has been answered, ad nauseum on every rifle forum that exists, as well as in this thread.

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=ruger+vs+remington&aq=f&aqi=g1g-v4g-j1g-b4&aql=&oq=

That simple google search turns up THOUSANDS of discussions pertain exactly to your question.

You don't know anything. This is very obvious by your posts, yet in typical noob fashion your manners go AWOL as soon as someone says something you don't like.

I was thinking of helping you some more... but I see that it would be wasted effort.

Allow me to elaborate:

You don't want a heavy barrel, but you want shot-to-shot repeatable accuracy as the barrel heats up.

You don't want to do "extensive" aftermarket mods, but a bedding job in a new stock and decent trigger would be a couple required mods to ensure repeatable accuracy.

You want 1-1.5 MOA accuracy, and want that out to 400yds, yet you don't handload, and you can't afford 308 match factory ammo.

I could spend all day punching holes in your posts. You act like you know something, but you know nothing. If you did, the "ruger vs remington" question you have wouldn't exist. They are completely different actions with completely different core uses in mind. The ruger's I've had my hands on range from half moa guns to 3 moa guns. I've yet to see a remington 700 sps tactical that wasn't sub-moa. Most are 3/4 or so. In order to get them to do that repeatably under the most circumstances they need a new stock with a v-block at the least or a good bedding job.

Now, either define more clearly what the rifle is to be used for so we can tell you what to do with your remington to give you the things you want, or choose the ruger option and go away. No one supports them, no one wants to work on them, and no one cares about the few that do.

You want help? We will give it to you. Not spoon fed, and certainly not when we receive attitude. You could simply have more CLEARLY defined your purpose for this rifle and Plato might not have read so much into your lack of understanding.

Then decide how you want to respond to this post. Come back at me with some witty and clever smart ass remarks like everyone is expecting you to, or amaze us by being the first rookie to come to a gun forum asking the same old questions and realize when he should sit down, shut up, and read a lot.

[titsonritz]

Same answer Remington 700

[Black Jack]

Orkan,

You know what, your right. I was out of line and I apologize, it won't happen again.

My original intent was just to get the opinions of those on this sight, not to have somebody else do my homework for me. I had already done my home work when I was told, by somebody that I respect, to go with the Ruger. I was trying to find out if this was an isolated recommendation, or if there was something that I was missing.

Again, I am sorry that this thread ended up going down hill and I will try to be more carefull in the future with my questions.

[PlatoCATM]

Not everyone's requirements are contained in a certain "box." But it certainly helps to define what you want before coming and asking one of the most vague questions in a forum that defaults to "precision" when otherwise left unstated. You never stated which model of 700 you were looking at, but after reading into your post (which you told me not to do but we have to do it anyway) you are apparently seeking one with a lightweight barrel. I brought up Stevens because 1) you did not say specifically that you considered it; and 2) your only apparent complaint about Savage was the accu-trigger.

"Hitting the right target" is mainly a function of the shooter when you throw out the minimal practical differences of modern rifles. If you can't shoot enough to hone your skills, then worrying about a potential 1/2 MOA is irrelevant.

[orkan]

Well you just gained points.

Now I don't know who recommended the ruger, or what he has done to earn your respect. Nor do I know the context of the conversation you had with him to encourage him to make that recommendation, but that advice was either out of ignorance, or perhaps some other self serving motivation.

Here are some 100yd groups with a bone stock remington 700 SPS tactical in 308 win with a 20" barrel. Holding groups like this was difficult due to the flimsy stock it comes with.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/rem700/IMG_2048.jpg

I replaced the stock, and can hold moa to 800yds most days. This day the wind got the best of me.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/range_report/2010/IMG_4170.JPG

The rifle.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/range_report/2010/IMG_4571.JPG

The same distance with my surgeon/krieger/aics 18" 308.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/range_report/2010/IMG_0154.JPG

The remington 700 SPS tactical in 308 is the most affordable out of the box rifle for precision shooting you are going to find. The savages are accurate as well, but lack the following and aftermarket support that the 700 enjoys. That may change.

For 100-400yd shooting that you describe, get some 155-168gr bullets and stack them in front of a healthy dose of varget with a winchester case and cci-200 primer. If you want to hunt with it... try a 150gr nosler ballistic tip. I've shot the nosler 150's out to 800yds They fly good, and will still kill deer.

[Black Jack]

PlatoCATM
Yes, unfortunately I was not specific enough with my original question or my subsequent explanation.

Right now I am leaning towards the 700 SPS Tactical. I definitely do not want a light weight barrel, I was hoping for a mid weight barrel, but I can't find a 700 with one. Given the choice between a light weight and a heavy weight barrel I will go with the heavy. 7 ½ lbs is not too bad, I am guessing that will still leave me at 8 to 8 ½ lbs after I add the glass. I don't need a “scout” rifle but do not want to end up with something that is 10+ lbs either. Unfortunately I only have about $1000.00 to work with (not counting the glass).

As far as practice... your right. You do not get anywhere without it! I get plenty of practice with my pistols and semi-auto rifles, depending on schedule and weather, but have zero experience with bolt action rifles and need to find someway to afford the ammo to practice with. Hopefully reloading will allow me to put enough through this rifle to gain some level of proficiency with it. Based on what I have been able to find, I should be able to save about 30% by reloading. And yes, I also understand that reloading will allow me to tailor the ammunition to the weapon as well, from what I understand this may actually be one of the biggest advantages of reloading.

Orkan,
If I could get groups like that, I would be happy as a pig in $#!%!

What stock is that? Is it reasonable to expect to pick up a good stock for $300.00 or less? I already know a local shop that carries the 700 SPS Tactical in stock for about $525.00, but I still need a sling a bipod/tripod, maybe a new stock, basically all accessories except the glass and still keep to my $1000.00 budget.

Just out of curiosity, what is the surgeon/krieger/aics 18" 308? Bolt action? Semi-auto? I am not familiar with the names.

Thanks again for all your input.

[orkan]

The stock on that is an HS Precision. $350 I think.

You can get bell and carlson cheaper.

The other rifle I described is here.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/range_report/2011/IMG_5249.JPG

Surgeon 591 action
Krieger 18" 1:10 308win barrel
Timney trigger @ 2lbs
AICS 2.0 stock
Atlas v7 bipod
Badger rings
Premier 5-25x56 w/USO ARD
YHM Phantom 7.62 QD suppressor

The sps tactical you are looking at does have a middle weight barrel. It's not an MTU or krieger 17 weight barrel. It's not sporter profile, but between sporter and heavy varmint. So it really is exactly what you are saying you want.

[Alpha Sierra]

Neither.

Howa 1500

[orkan]

Actually, the howa 1500 is a lot closer in its features to a rem700 than a ruger is. Much closer actually.

Yet no matter how hard the howa tries... it isn't a rem700. :)

[JStor]

I agree with the guys suggesting the FN. These are Winchester Model 70s in disguise. Another rifle to look for is a 1990s era Winchester 70 Stealth. These rifles are the Heavy Varmint model and are superbly accurate.

[Alpha Sierra]

Yet no matter how hard the howa tries... it isn't a rem700. :)
It doesn't have to try hard. It's already better.

Receiver machined from a forging with a real recoil lug. Not machined from a piece of bar stock of unknown grain flow with a washer for recoil lug.

One-piece bolt machined from a forging. Not a two piece job brazed together.

Barrels that literally need no break in.

A real extractor. Not a little spring clip.

Sorry, I've owned both. Out of the box, it's not even close. And since so many things are right with Howa, the aftermarket need is far less than Remington's. Having said that, I can find plenty of stuff from Manners, CDI, Timney, and Roedale Precision to trick out a Howa in the very few areas where it is weak.

Problem is, name recognition blinds a lot of people.

[orkan]

Has nothing to do with name recognition.

Look, I'm not even going to get into this. Continue the remington bashing as you see fit. Those that know... already know everything I'd say to take your arguments apart. Have fun with your howa. ... I know I won't be owning one.

[Suwannee Tim]

....You don't know anything. This is very obvious by your posts, yet in typical noob fashion your manners go AWOL as soon as someone says something you don't like......

In one sentence you insult the man, in the next you chide him for lack of manners. That is chutzpah.

[orkan]

and there's timmy boy with some more off topic nanny shit. Have you ANYTHING to contribute to ANY topic... or do you just like going around playing like you are important?

Get a hobby.

The man acted an imbecile, was corrected, appologized... all was well. ... until you show up to stir the shit again. You do it like its your job or something.

[Alpha Sierra]

Those that know... already know everything I'd say to take your arguments apart.
LOL.......

OK dude, you win.

[longball]

I have a Remington 700, Ruger 77, and a Howa 1500. Based on your stated needs I do not think you would be satisfied with the Ruger. I do think that either one of the others would fullfill your needs though. I realize the Howa wasn't on your list but in this case I agree with Alpha Sierra. Especially on your mentioned budget I would look hard at the 1500. Although the Remingtons can be bought for a decent price you can easily find 1500's on gunbroker for less than $400. I have $430 invested in a Howa 300 WinMag and a Simmons Aetec that shoots .75 moa (155gr A-Max, 59.0 grains of IMR 4064, 3100fps :dance3:) all day out to 350 yards even in the Hogue stock. For a good rifle on a budget that's hard to beat.

All that being said I think you'll be happy with the Remington as well. My 700 is also easily a .75 moa gun but I have more money invested in it for roughly the same accuracy (also still in the factory Hogue).

[sinjinhawk]

To answer your inquiry, I will choose Remington, Savage, Ruger in that order. Remington for their tested reliability, Savage for their barrel accuracy, and Ruger if both first and second choice does not work for you.

[orkan]

http://www.gregd.net/pics/funny/thread_die1.jpg