Moving back to a Glock from a 1911 [Archive]

Alaskapopo

04-13-11, 15:03

Several years ago I started carrying 1911's and I love the gun design. Its accurate and easy to shoot with and reliable provided you keep maintaining the weapon. But I miss the Glock 17's ability to run no matter how you lube it. I hate how my 1911's always seemed to need something tweaked. New extractor, new ejector, broken plunger tube (had it fall off my Wilson once when I took the grips off) I have kept my Wilson running for these last 8 years or so and it shoots great. But lately I have had strange malfunctions sparatically that I can't identify (failure to fully eject case like a horizontal stove pipe. I messed with the extractor tension and thought it was find and had another malfunction the other day). So for now I am done. I ordered a duty rig for my Glock 17 and will start carrying that for work again. It makes sence for other reasons as well. I carry a GLock 26 as a BUG and now I will be able to use my duty guns magazines. I was constantly getting rust on my Wilson in the mag well area where the finishe is work off from lots of mag changes. No issue with the Glock. I guess the real reason I am switch back is I am just getting to lazy to up keep the 1911. I will still use them for competition. But I will use my Glocks for carry. Plus there is the fact I will be going from 9 rounds in the gun to 20 rounds with the Glock 17 and factory extended magazine pads.
Pat

Omega Man

04-13-11, 15:10

Sounds like you made life easier for yourself. You need to be able to trust that your firearm is going to work, when you need it to.

TOrrock

04-13-11, 15:11

Love my Wilson CQB, but I carry my Glock 19.

I'd also think Glocks would be much easier to use in the colder weather up there, when you're wearing insulated gloves.

darr3239

04-13-11, 15:18

When involving a duty gun, anytime your thoughts start to dwell on reliability issues, it is a BAD thing. Subconscious thoughts always affect performance to one degree or another. They detract from what you need to be thinking about at the time.

If you have done everything you can to solve the issues, and the thoughts persist, it's time for a change.

It's hard to come up with a more reliable pistol than a Glock.

ICANHITHIMMAN

04-13-11, 15:19

Well I would not trade my colt for anything but my glock 19 rides my hip and my wifes to

markm

04-13-11, 15:28

I liken my 1911 to a classic car. Fun to have, drive around town, and tinker with, but you don't want to take it off road or on a road trip.

We need to get over the romance of the 1911 for defensive purposes though.

R3V3LATIONS

04-13-11, 15:53

Im not sure if I could bring myself to subject a 1911 to the rigors of duty use. A glunk...ha ha nooo problem:D

I love the platform, but to me it is more art than tool

As markm spoke so truthfully, it is easy to fall into a romance with them....

FChen17213

04-13-11, 15:55

I also echo the thoughts of the above posts. Love the 1911 and have shot 1911s forever. However when it comes to carry, it's still the Glock that rides in the holster.

jmlshooter

04-13-11, 15:56

Things that work are boring! Where is your sense of adventure?

jmlshooter

04-13-11, 16:00

Magsz

04-13-11, 16:07

It's not just romance with the 1911. It's excitement.

The Glock is the girl you know is going to be ready to go out on time, doesn't go psycho, and remembers birthdays and family members' names.

The 1911 is the smokin' six-foot blonde who may flip out and cuss and hit you in public if things don't go her way.

Exactly, but which one do you bang the **** out of, say goodbye and then call whenever you're feeling like going clam diving?

Or, spend every day for the rest of your life with....

Guns will kill you, so will women. Thankfully, guns also can save your life. Choose the most reliable, boring, easy to use platform.

jmlshooter

04-13-11, 16:09

Why won't you call me, 1911? WHY???

Littlelebowski

04-13-11, 16:17

I like to see these sort of brutally honest posts. I think it's a wise move. I went from a Nighthawk to a G19 years ago and haven't regretted it once.

novak1911freak

04-13-11, 16:25

GermanSynergy

04-13-11, 16:30

Agreed. My Gen 3 9mm Glocks have been extremely reliable, and I don't miss selling my 1911s.

I like to see these sort of brutally honest posts. I think it's a wise move. I went from a Nighthawk to a G19 years ago and haven't regretted it once.

jmlshooter

04-13-11, 16:34

Just look at Gun Magazines as a microcosm of the marketplace:

They'll run an article about a custom 1911 done up by Heirloom.

"Isn't this gun sexy? It has no sharp edges! It'll shoot 1.5 in. groups at 25 yards! It's $3,500!!"

"Awesome, dude. Where can I get one?"

"Oh, you can't have THIS gun. Are you retarded? There's a 19-month waiting list."

....

Then they'll run an article about a Glock.

"This gun looks like a Glock. It'll shoot 2-in. groups at 25 yards. It's $500. It'll probably work if you drop it in a volcano."

....

It seems to me that part of the romance surrounding the 1911 has to do with having "The Perfect Gun" that no one else has. Anyone can have a Glock.

SoulStealer

04-13-11, 16:35

Welcome back

Although Im a big fan of the 9mm Glocks and carry one daily. Theres just something sexy and sleek about a Springfield Armory 1911 .45 .

jh9

04-13-11, 16:44

I have kept my Wilson running for these last 8 years or so and it shoots great. But lately I have had strange malfunctions sparatically that I can't identify (failure to fully eject case like a horizontal stove pipe. I messed with the extractor tension and thought it was find and had another malfunction the other day).

Not that I'm some sort of 1911 cheerleader, but it sounds like the gun is due for an overhaul. "Messing with the extractor tension" is one thing. "Temporarily correcting the amount of tension while a new part is in the mail so it can be correctly fitted" is another. No offense. You clearly compete (and shoot) a lot. But there's a time for shadetree gunsmithing, and there's a time for letting a pro (not simply an "armorer") handle it. A 1911 having a midlife crisis needs the latter, not the former.

edit: Not to say that switching to the Glock is a bad thing. It isn't. But for every Glock out there that's got eleventy bojillion rounds through it and is in perfect shape, there are plenty of other Glocks that have worn in the most curious manner possible and started to sporadically misbehave.

If you're going to compete (and shoot) as much as you do, then please consider that picking a platform and learning it (no, armorer certs don't count) will serve you better than jumping ship to another platform and simply hoping that next time, when you're the better part of a decade into hammering on it, the failure will be easily diagnosable. The Glock doesn't guarantee this. (Though, yes, your odds are better.) I've seen enough stock Glocks fail to know that if you really wanna shoot, part and parcel is learning more than just what's in the armorer's manual.

chuckman

04-13-11, 17:56

I, too, carried a 1911, but I went to Glock for all the reasons mentioned. I miss the 1911, and I sure as hell shot it better, but there are too many good reasons to carry the Glock.

GIJew766

04-13-11, 18:38

exiledtoIA

04-13-11, 18:54

Hiding behind my sense of self preservation.

Things that work are boring! Where is your sense of adventure?

Outrider

04-13-11, 19:01

I love the 1911. The grip angle and width is great. The trigger is awesome. The accuracy is excellent. A well-tuned 1911 is fun to shoot.

-That said, it requires more attention and specialized knowledge for maintenance to run reliably than some of the modern pistols, i.e. Glock. When you hear guys like Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn who know 1911 pistols talk about it being time to slide the 1911 over to the cowboy gun side of things, you know where things stand these days.

darr3239

04-13-11, 19:18

You clearly compete (and shoot) a lot. But there's a time for shadetree gunsmithing, and there's a time for letting a pro (not simply an "armorer") handle it. A 1911 having a midlife crisis needs the latter, not the former.

I've seen enough stock Glocks fail to know that if you really wanna shoot, part and parcel is learning more than just what's in the armorer's manual.

The OP does compete but the main issues are his concerns about his duty gun.

Curious: What Glock failures have you seen?

mariodsantana

04-13-11, 19:37

Guns will kill you, so will women. [...] Choose the most reliable, boring, easy to use platform.

Yeah, even Glocks can kB. Never shoot unknown reloads... and never tell your wife that you chose her because she was the most reliable, boring, easy to use platform.

JonInWA

04-13-11, 20:00

I enjoy my 1911s-they're a joy to shoot, and a sort of artistic challenge to keep on top of.

Glocks, on the other hand shoot virtually as well (frankly, in my case, at least as well if not better), require singularly little lubrication and maintenance (although after each time I shoot mine, I dutifully field-strip and clean/lube 'em), are incredibly easy to not just field-strip, but to detail strip...and parts are plentiful, easily available, and dirt cheap-not that you'll normally need much in the way of replacements.

After-market factory support for both law enforcement and civilian is exceptional.

While I also cherish my 1911s, my Glocks are what I unstintingly trust.

Best, Jon

rob_s

04-13-11, 20:07

Kirkrv8

04-13-11, 20:22

I love love love 1911's
But I am in the market for a Glock 17 I want something I can bang around and not worry:D
Although I shot a glock 17 gen 4 and had a stovepipe in the first 20 rnds:(

Dave G

04-13-11, 20:34

Things that work are boring! Where is your sense of adventure?

My thoughts exactly!

S-1

04-13-11, 20:52

I personaly wouldn't carry a 1911 on duty, but for some reason, they are making a come back in LE. :confused:

mkmckinley

04-13-11, 22:37

I used to think I shot my 1911s better than Glocks. Since I started training for real and shooting a lot of M&P and Glock 9mm I realize I'm shooting them as well I ever did a 1911. The Glock/M&P are easier to manipulate as well, and I'm set on 9mm which doesn't tend to run in 1911s. Now I'm down to one 1911. I'll always keep it but for serious use plastic is the way to go.

samuse

04-13-11, 22:50

I've tried to run 1911s for the last three years and I've slowly come to the realization that I just don't like 'em. I started out with Glocks many years ago and I guess I got spoiled, but the 1911 thing has been "an adventure" to put it nicely.

I'm currently trying to wear out a Glock 17.

rathos

04-13-11, 23:31

I have carried Sigs, 1911's and most recently M&Ps on duty so far in my short career. Recently I had to go back to the company glock because I want to be a firearms instructor. I was told that carrying something else would show I had no confidence in the glock.

So far it hasn't been all that bad, but it took me about 500 rounds and a day at the range to get my qualification scores back to where they should be. Oddly enough I purchased my own 17 for training and I seem to shoot better with it even though it has the stock sights and the trigger feels heavier.

All in all I don't feel so bad about the Glock, having 51 rounds isn't so bad.

skyugo

04-13-11, 23:35

Dennis

04-14-11, 00:30

I have dreamed for 15 years about carrying a 1911 on duty. In the meantime I have been through 3 different authorized weapon systems as they came out and spent many, many thousands on guns, gear, ammo, and training for each one. I have have been running Glocks for about 7 years now and couldn't be happier with a full complement of 9's and .45's in various sizes with lights and every kind of holster and accessory I could want and tens of thousands of rounds downrange in training.

Now, finally, my Dept. has authorized 1911's but I have pretty much decided not to switch. Switching would mean many more thousands of dollars for a brace of pistols, accessories, duty gear, ammo, and training time. Lots of training to get anywhere near as competent with a new weapons system. Now that I am older with more responsibilities and less time I have to ask myself, what for?

- Better ergonomics? But I can shoot and manipulate my Glocks quite well already...

- Better accuracy? I can't argue that, I can get 2" groups at 25Y with my Les Baer 1911, and really only 4+" with my Glocks and blocky night sights.

- Cool Factor! Definitely high in my Dept. and I would look like a serious gunslinger like when I was one of the first to go S&W .45, then Glock... :cool:

And then the obvious downsides to 1911's

- Less rounds, a lot less!

- Heavier!

- Harder to maintain! More time spent learning the in's and out's of another, more complicated, weapon system.

So basically, for a bit more accuracy and cool factor I have pretty much decided that my 1911 dream is just that, a dream that sounds a lot better than would ever really work out.

Dennis.

ps. I married the hot blonde, but luckily she's not crazy. She just works with crazy people :p

Alaskapopo

04-14-11, 01:15

i've recently gone from carrying my HK p7 most of the time to my glock 19. I got an amazing holster for the g19 (thanks to brian at atomic dog!) which has upped the concealability and comfort factor of the g19 tremendously.
I do love that it's something i simply don't have to worry about. IF anything actually breaks i can fix it in 5 minutes with a finishing nail and a 4 dollar part. It won't rust, it doesn't care if it's clean and lubed (though it always is), and i shoot it very well.
I guess it's kind of the toyota corolla of guns, but shooting a glock is much more enjoyable than driving a corolla.

to the op (alaskapopo) you guys aren't doing the 10mm's up there anymore? Though i suppose in alaska "situations" are either 9mm sized or shotgun slug sized. some big critters up there :eek:

I did briefly carry a 10mm as my duty weapon. It was a Glock 20. It was difficult to shoot as well as I would have liked at speed. Also like the 21 I was forced to carry for 6 years its grip is huge and its not comfortable to carry off duty. The 10mm is popular up here with a lot of non police personal. I was talking to some Glock reps who told me that they sell 10k of 10mm pistols a year on average with 60% going to Alaska. I had no idea they sold that many. Yea generally when we deal with critters its shotgun slug time or 45/70 lever gun.
Pat

Alaskapopo

04-14-11, 01:22

Not that I'm some sort of 1911 cheerleader, but it sounds like the gun is due for an overhaul. "Messing with the extractor tension" is one thing. "Temporarily correcting the amount of tension while a new part is in the mail so it can be correctly fitted" is another. No offense. You clearly compete (and shoot) a lot. But there's a time for shadetree gunsmithing, and there's a time for letting a pro (not simply an "armorer") handle it. A 1911 having a midlife crisis needs the latter, not the former.

edit: Not to say that switching to the Glock is a bad thing. It isn't. But for every Glock out there that's got eleventy bojillion rounds through it and is in perfect shape, there are plenty of other Glocks that have worn in the most curious manner possible and started to sporadically misbehave.

If you're going to compete (and shoot) as much as you do, then please consider that picking a platform and learning it (no, armorer certs don't count) will serve you better than jumping ship to another platform and simply hoping that next time, when you're the better part of a decade into hammering on it, the failure will be easily diagnosable. The Glock doesn't guarantee this. (Though, yes, your odds are better.) I've seen enough stock Glocks fail to know that if you really wanna shoot, part and parcel is learning more than just what's in the armorer's manual.

Your right I could get the Wilson running right with a trip to Wilson and some $$$$ later. I will probably due that but I no longer want to carry a gun that requires that much TLC. This was a hard decision for me as I love the 1911. Its a great design from the stand point of being easy to shoot accurately and its ergonomics are great. I shoot better with them. The main advantage is long range accuracy. I can easily shoot 2 inch groups at 25 yards with my 1911's but its more like 3 to 4 inches with my Glocks. But I want a weapon that I don't have to constantly stay on top of. This is what I have had happen with my Wilson in the last 15k rounds and 8 years.
3 extractors, 2 ejectors, 2 plunger tubes. (the plunger tubes just broke off where they were staked) These problems don't warn you before they come on you know when you get malfunctions. Then the problem needs to be tended to. I have to run two 1911's to keep one running right. I love them but when I carried Glocks they worked and worked with almost no maintance. What I would really like is a 2011 in 9mm with the reliablity and durablity of a Glock 17 but I don't have that kind of extra cash at the moment.
Pat

fhpchris

04-14-11, 01:42

Sadly, I am having the same realization.... I just don't have the funding for the higher end 1911s nor their maintenance..... I am looking at my Nighthawk Talon to become a safe queen and am looking at purchasing a Glock 19.....

Nothing wrong with having an HK45 and having a girl that still looks good and is ready on time. :D

Beat Trash

04-14-11, 03:31

A duty weapon must be reliable. First and foremost, it must be reliable.

In the middle of your work week, having spent half of your off time in court, you may not have the time or energy to give your duty gun the TLC it may deserve.

This is where the Glock 9mm's (and the M&P's and H&K's) really shine.

If you have more confidence in your Glock 17, then carry it. Your logic for the switch is sound.

Littlelebowski

04-14-11, 10:35

How bad is shipping to AK? If you need say, a new extractor, how long do you have to wait?

rob_s

04-14-11, 10:36

How bad is shipping to AK? If you need say, a new extractor, how long do you have to wait?

Can't speak directly to the question, but when I was a 1911 shooter I had a bin of spare parts for almost every application. I have similar now for the Glock, as well as even MORE spare guns, but I keep the Glock parts in a plastic bag.

markm

04-14-11, 10:46

It's not just romance with the 1911. It's excitement.

The excitement of clearing a malf in the middle of a gunfight while bullets are flying isn't my bag, Baby. :p

Magsz

04-14-11, 10:51

One of my best friends and shooting partners is a deputy down here and also a firearms instructor. Ive seen his pistols and they are all beat to shit. Not because he abuses them but simply because living in a holster and being banged around all day for 12 hour shifts four days a week is NOT easy on ANY piece of metal or plastic.

Why would ANYONE want to bang, beat up and ultimately wear out a three thousand dollar gun when you can be out shot (generally speaking) by a hunk of shit plastic that costs 400 dollars?

Are 1911's amazing platforms? Absolutely but there is a reason why alot of top tier trainers regard them as toys in todays modern age.

okie john

04-14-11, 10:51

"This gun looks like a Glock. It'll shoot 2-in. groups at 25 yards. It's $500. It'll probably work if you drop it in a volcano."

I'm stealing this line.

Okie John

SwatDawg15

04-14-11, 13:20

I switched back to a G17 two years ago from my 1911. I did love my Kimber, and shot perfect scores with it. I paid out the azz for the Kimber custom shop to build me a 1911 without the dreaded FPS. It was a SIS/RL lower with a Warrior upper. Shot like a dream.

The problems quickly surfaced. The gun with light attached was heavy as chit. I also carried 4 mags on my belt, mainly because no one on my shift used a 1911, so they couldn't pass me a mag if needed. Every time I worked a crash in the pouring rain, I had to do TLC...

Holsters were not available for a railed 1911 with light attached in most stores. So that meant I had to search and order online. The small compact 1911's were not reliable for me to carry as a backup, so that mint a different gun, with more mags.

Basically it just got to be a pain in the azz to maintain, and carry for 12 hours, day after day.

Enter the Glock 17. Its reliable, its light weight, even with the light attached. I can replace any part cheaply, without fitting, or refinishing. The mags work in my BUG, so more weight shredded. Holsters are available everywhere, and have many, many options. It don't care what type of ammo I feed it.. It just goes on, and on.

I love the 1911.. but, for me, and what I do, its just not ideal. The Glock is made for what i do, in every sense.

markm

04-14-11, 13:24

Very good points.

Out here in the summer, you'd have to check your frame for rust when you'd sweat on your Concealed 1911. And under the grips is always a great place to harbor moisture and thus corrosion.

Sweat and Polymer get along a lot better.

samuse

04-14-11, 13:46

Why would ANYONE want to bang, beat up and ultimately wear out a three thousand dollar gun when you can be out shot (generally speaking) by a hunk of shit plastic that costs 400 dollars?

I love this statement.

Street Survival

04-14-11, 15:26

Hey Pat FYI,

Ed's Public Safety just got a fresh shipment of fully "Updated" Gen 4, Glock, Model 17's. I just ordered two. Personally, I think you made a good decision. The Doc says fill the mags with HST's. ***Stay safe.

Fraternally yours

Jimmy Ward

QuickStrike

04-14-11, 16:59

Call me a 1911 fanatic all you want, but I simply shoot the platform better than I do the Glock. Perhaps it's just me, but I grew up shooting the 1911, and it just feels right, both in my hand and in my holster. For me, the time spent maintaining the two that are set up identically for carry, is worth knowing I am just slightly more accurate with them than I am with any other pistol I own. That improved accuracy could be the difference between a good hit and a dead bad guy, vs a miss or poor hit and a dead GI Jew...

YMMV

H

+1. As much as I like to distance myself from that old ass design, I still come back to it. I carry a G19 right now, but am starting to consider buying a better holster to carry the 1911.

Why? Because in my hands, SA PRO @ 25 yards = glock 19 @ 15 yards.

The first gun I ever shot was a 1911. I do understand the short comings of this design and plan to test it vigorously. Also planning on getting Jerry Kuhnhausen's 1911 shop manuals so I can fit extra extractors and stuff for myself.

I can see how it's impractical for most people who just want a good reliable tool though.

Littlelebowski

04-14-11, 18:52

Why? Because in my hands, SA PRO @ 25 yards = glock 19 @ 15 yards.

Do you have any idea how much training and ammo you could get for the price difference between a Glock and a Pro? Do you know how much you would benefit from training? Do you know there's at least 2 polymer modern handguns that can shoot 2" groups at 25 yards?

Avenger29

04-14-11, 19:27

What I ended up doing... I carry an M&P and I have a GSG 1911-22 to scratch the 1911 itch at the range. It's both a very affordable gun AND a very affordable caliber..

Spiffums

04-14-11, 19:48

opmike

04-14-11, 20:17

If he already has a Pro and it's working for him (it's not exactly a POS, otherwise I wouldn't be making this argument), then I can't fault the man.

GIJew766

04-14-11, 21:39

+1. As much as I like to distance myself from that old ass design, I still come back to it. I carry a G19 right now, but am starting to consider buying a better holster to carry the 1911.

Why? Because in my hands, SA PRO @ 25 yards = glock 19 @ 15 yards.

The first gun I ever shot was a 1911. I do understand the short comings of this design and plan to test it vigorously. Also planning on getting Jerry Kuhnhausen's 1911 shop manuals so I can fit extra extractors and stuff for myself.

I can see how it's impractical for most people who just want a good reliable tool though.

Our position obviously isn't for everyone. Just as the whole "Glock just runs like a stuck pig" ain't for us. The reality is, that for some people, we just shoot the 1911 better than we shoot anything else.

I would be lying if I said I don't own a polymer pistol. I own several. A handful of HKs (USP and HK45), a Glock 23 (it was what we were issued) as well as a 21SF.

As I've said before, I take the time to maintain the 1911s and look at it as a labor of love. To me, it's no different than my Sundays cleaning and working on my cars. I enjoy the work. I enjoy the time. I also enjoy knowing that, because I do take the time to do it on a regular basis, that my guns (just like my cars) will run when I need and tell them to.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The 1911 is more accurate in my hands. More accurate means good hits when I need 'em. Good hits means I go home to my lady. Bad hits or a full blown miss makes for a dead GI Jew and tears all around. To bastardize the old dehydration line "An accurate GI Jew is a live GI Jew. An inaccurate GI Jew is a dead GI Jew, and dead GI Jew has no fun."

Again, YMMV, but don't count Ol' Slabsides out.

H

Striker

04-14-11, 23:58

Do you have any idea how much training and ammo you could get for the price difference between a Glock and a Pro? Do you know how much you would benefit from training? Do you know there's at least 2 polymer modern handguns that can shoot 2" groups at 25 yards?

The HK is one. What is the other?

Also, maybe he already has training and the 1911 just works better for him. Nothing wrong with the SA Pro. By all accounts, including the FBI test, it's a reliable. accurate weapon and Glock isn't for everyone. DocGKR, LAV and Hilton Yam have all said that the 1911 is reliable duty weapon if choose a quality weapon and you're willing to keep up with the maintenance and some are willing to do so.

QuickStrike

04-15-11, 00:40

Do you have any idea how much training and ammo you could get for the price difference between a Glock and a Pro? Do you know how much you would benefit from training? Do you know there's at least 2 polymer modern handguns that can shoot 2" groups at 25 yards?

Haha, relax I know all of that.

I have five gen3 glocks and practice with the ones in 9mm regularly. Even though I rarely shoot .45, I still shoot the 1911 better. That crutch of a trigger is sweet! :P

I can also see how a forgiving trigger might help under stress... It's not all cons.

Littlelebowski

04-15-11, 06:18

Haha, relax I know all of that.

I have five gen3 glocks and practice with the ones in 9mm regularly. Even though I rarely shoot .45, I still shoot the 1911 better. That crutch of a trigger is sweet! :P

I can also see how a forgiving trigger might help under stress... It's not all cons.

Practice....OK. How about formal handgun training?

M4arc

04-15-11, 07:09

The reason you guys can shoot a 1911 so much better is because it's a "crutch". Jeez, don't you guys know anything? :sarcastic:

GIJew766

04-15-11, 08:25

The reason you guys can shoot a 1911 so much better is because it's a "crutch". Jeez, don't you guys know anything? :sarcastic:

Oh my! The light. I see it now. Thank you. Oh thank you! You have shown me the errors of my ways and now I must repent at the alter of Lord Gaston! JMB is a false prophet! :sarcastic:

d90king

04-15-11, 10:04

Did the same thing about a year ago and it was a great move. The G19 RTF2 does everything that I need it to, and more... I also found the reduction in weight helped my back.

I will always run my 1911's but a Glock will be my primary...

d90king

04-15-11, 10:07

FWIW I also shoot a G19 as well and in many cases better than my 4k + 1911's... I'm not a bulls eye shooter so that could have something to do with it.:p

Littlelebowski

04-15-11, 10:48

When you hear guys like Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn who know 1911 pistols talk about it being time to slide the 1911 over to the cowboy gun side of things, you know where things stand these days.

A clue.....

JHC

04-15-11, 11:52

WillBrink

04-15-11, 12:20

I prefer the 1911 in every way but cost, so right now I carry Glocks. I can shoot the 1911s better, conceal them more easily, they are more forgiving of my shitty shooting ability, etc. But they are cost prohibitive.

The dark day of going from 1911 to polymer was shooting an M&P with Apex trigger. Finally a gun with all the benefits of a low maintenance simply low cost gun, that gives close to 1911 performance for me. No, nothing shoots like a high end tuned 1911 for me, and I suspect nothing ever will, but the M&P/Apex combo gets close and needs little upkeep and I could by 4-5 of them for the cost of one high end 1911.

ST911

04-15-11, 12:47

The Glock is the girl you know is going to be ready to go out on time, doesn't go psycho, and remembers birthdays and family members' names.

The 1911 is the smokin' six-foot blonde who may flip out and cuss and hit you in public if things don't go her way.

Well put. I appreciate the craftsmanship and refinement of a high quality 1911. I'm simply not willing to invest the time and expense in keeping it up. Not to mention having to buy and maintain a spare.

Someone said if you want to treat a gun like you treat your lawnmower, get a Glock. True words. As I often note, if I have another opportunity to transition or standardize another user group, it will be in G17s/G19s. 1911s aren't even a thought.

l8apex

04-15-11, 16:20

I did the same thing and transitioned to only Glock. Consolidating platform has made a better shooter overall, and I know what the OP means regarding 1911 maintenance, love the gun but I shoot a lot and need a weapon that allows me to focus on skill and tactics rather than parts. Glock fits the bill. If I had an armorer that could work on the 1911, it may be a different story. But when you are shooting high round counts out of pistols, rifles and shotguns you want something that works without much attention. YMMV

tpd223

04-15-11, 17:41

After many years of messing around with various calibers and platforms, I have sold off all of my .40s and .45s and consolidated to Glock 9mms and S&W J frames for serious use.

I have a bud who bought a higher end 1911, a very, very nice gun. I have always enjoyed owning 1911s and shooting them, but I bought a Glock 17 and 26, holsters for both, a couple of cases of ammo, and a $400 pistol class, all for what he has in that gun alone.

maximus83

04-15-11, 17:59

I get the advantages for going from a 1911 to a modern polymer pistol. I've done it myself: formerly carried full-sized 1911s, but advantages like the size and weight savings, simplified manual of arms (on striker-fired pistols like Glocks and M&P), reduced cost, increased capacity, and easier maintenance, were hard to argue with. I finally went polymer, with M&P for daily carry.

Still with all that said, it's a fact that I shoot faster, and more accurately (whether under slow or rapid fire) with my tuned 1911's, and even with my tuned CZ-85 combat, than with even my APEX-customized M&P's. I've gotten at times off-hand 5-shot groups of 1" @ 25 yards from my custom 1911, using plain WWB 230gr FMJ. Here's one group I shot with my SA custom:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee301/husker_t/Springer-First-Target.jpg

I can't repro that kind of shooting off-hand ANY time of course, but it's not totally luck either :-). Because with that gun, and with my other 1911, I consistently produce much tighter groups compared to my M&P's. With my M&P's, good as they are, the best I've ever done off-hand at that distance is around 2.5", and even that is not something I can do consistently. Someone will say that this kind of accuracy is adequate for combat/carry use. Yes, but I think LAV has argued that you want as much accuracy as you can get, because under the stress of shooting conditions, you'll probably have accuracy that's at least twice as bad as what you normally shoot. So if you can consistently shoot 3.5" to 4" groups with an M&P at 25, that could easily open up to 8" or even 10" under stress, which of course would make quite a potential difference in your effectiveness.

Anyway, I'm not arguing for everyone going back to 1911's. What I am saying is, I definitely shoot mine better than ANY polymer platform, and despite the extra hassle in maintaining my 1911's, despite the cost and the ammo and the extra size/weight when you carry, I may eventually give another try to carrying one. My main barrier right now is the size/weight issue: I could never quite get comfortable carrying a full-size 1911. But it seems like in general, it makes sense to go with the platform that you shoot the best.

QuickStrike

04-15-11, 18:42

Practice....OK. How about formal handgun training?

No handgun classes yet. No time to, in the near future anyway...

You sayin' I'll be more accurate with a glock vs. a 1911 after attending a class?

Are my observations on my own shooting performance totally invalid, because I've never attended a pistol class?

I'd still choose my 1911 over a gen4 glock. :p

JStor

04-15-11, 18:44

All right...everybody loves Glocks. I do too, and I own a Glock 19.

But I can't resist making a comment or two. When 1911s are put together the way they are supposed to be, as per the "technical data package" they work fine. Sound familiar?

The history of the 1911 in two world wars is not only nostalgia...the guns worked. The soldiers must have used them, too, because in later years we heard about "worn out" guns that still ran pretty good.

Yeah, I like the little Glock 19, but I wouldn't hesitate to pick up one of my Colt 1911s...even if it only carries seven rounds.

rojocorsa

04-15-11, 19:19

But I can't resist making a comment or two. When 1911s are put together the way they are supposed to be, as per the "technical data package" they work fine. Sound familiar?

In many ways, the 1911 pistol is what the AR-15 rifle is in modern America. You're right. These are "America's guns." I guess that means that GLOCKs are like AKs--dead reliable and "evil" per the MSM.

I have to add that I like how the members here don't have their head up their ass when it comes to GLOCK and 1911 discussion. This is probably the most sane thread on the subject I've read.

The history of the 1911 in two world wars is not only nostalgia...the guns worked. The soldiers must have used them, too, because in later years we heard about "worn out" guns that still ran pretty good.

(Not arguing with you). Sure, they were reliable back then. Hell, if this were a 1911 vs. Luger thread---1911 all the way. But these days, more practical designs have superseded old slabsides for the better.

Whoever mentioned that these should be moved over to the "cowboy gun" side of the pile, that's a good way to put it.

skyugo

04-15-11, 19:59

In many ways, the 1911 pistol is what the AR-15 rifle is in modern America. You're right. These are "America's guns." I guess that means that GLOCKs are like AKs--dead reliable and "evil" per the MSM.

I have to add that I like how the members here don't have their head up their ass when it comes to GLOCK and 1911 discussion. This is probably the most sane thread on the subject I've read.

(Not arguing with you). Sure, they were reliable back then. Hell, if this were a 1911 vs. Luger thread---1911 all the way. But these days, more practical designs have superseded old slabsides for the better.

Whoever mentioned that these should be moved over to the "cowboy gun" side of the pile, that's a good way to put it.

I've thought about this too, the AR and the 1911 being along the same lines as in anyone can build them without paying for the patents etc. and also in that they vary wildly in quality and reliability depending on vendor.
the AR15 is part of the modern CNC era of manufacturing. Basically meaning that assuming you buy your AR parts from a reputable vendor (BCM, LMT, Noveske, Colt, etc) and assemble them correctly with the right buffer weight, it will work. "but sir" you say "you have to stake everything!" i don't personally rank staking bolts in with the filing and polishing that goes into a proper 1911. Basically it's plug and play...
Building a reliable 1911 from parts requires some serious talent.

og556

04-15-11, 20:17

Maximus83,

Your experience mirrors my own with the 1911. The closest thing I have found is the Sig P series in terms of off hand accuracy for me.

Although I keep coming back to the glock 19. The ergos are not the best for me and the trigger sucks but it is better than so many others I have tried for a carry gun in terms of reliability.

maximus83

04-15-11, 20:30

But these days, more practical designs have superseded old slabsides for the better.

As a general-issue gun for big gov/mil/leo, where you have to maintain a large armory of them, sure it's more "practical." I wouldn't say "superseded" universally though, there are cases where the 1911 would still be the preferred tool for the job. If that weren't the case, nobody would still carry them, and no LEO or agency teams would still use them, but they do. Just recently for instance, the officers in my own small town PD transitioned to carrying 1911's on the job. I doubt they did this based on "practical" concerns, from talking to one of the officers, they did it because they thought it would be a more effective fighting gun for their usage scenarios.

I don't really see the 1911 as "superceded" or disappearing from the modern fighting gun scene. It's clearly had a declining role for military and large agency use, driven mostly by cost and practical concerns. And that makes perfect sense. But that doesn't mean it will decline in use at the individual level, or even small LE or agency or selected mil groups.

Littlelebowski

04-15-11, 20:36

No handgun classes yet. No time to, in the near future anyway...

You sayin' I'll be more accurate with a glock vs. a 1911 after attending a class?

Are my observations on my own shooting performance totally invalid, because I've never attended a pistol class?

I'd still choose my 1911 over a gen4 glock. :p

I'm saying you'll be as accurate and much better off. But if you just can't possibly hit the target without a 4lb trigger that breaks like a glass rod and the oh so wonderful grip; you are toddling along on a crutch.

I've owned Springfield, Kimber, and Nighthawk 1911s. I carry a Gen4 EG19.

Littlelebowski

04-15-11, 20:45

No handgun classes yet. No time to, in the near future anyway...

You sayin' I'll be more accurate with a glock vs. a 1911 after attending a class?

Are my observations on my own shooting performance totally invalid, because I've never attended a pistol class?

I'd still choose my 1911 over a gen4 glock. :p

I'm more than a little surprised I need to detail the merits of formal training on this site.....

I am a better shot with a Glock than I was when I was a 1911 shooter with no training.

QuickStrike

04-15-11, 21:01

I'm more than a little surprised I need to detail the merits of formal training on this site.....
No worries, I never said it wasn't important. Ill be working with the glocks some more to get up to speed before joining a class. I think Todd Green's class requires a certain standard with a time limit. Haven't tested myself yet, gotta get a shot timer.

I am a better shot with a Glock than I was when I was a 1911 shooter with no training.
It's the opposite for me hence the back and forth. Frankly I'm comfortable with both.

hatidua

04-15-11, 21:06

I prefer the 1911 in every way but cost

That's where I'm at as well. I've had a number of Springer PRO's and have run untold thousands of rounds through them without a single hiccup of any kind - every bit as reliable as my Glocks.

But, the ammo bill is easier to tolerate with the 9mm Glocks.

maximus83

04-15-11, 21:12

I'm more than a little surprised I need to detail the merits of formal training on this site.....

I am a better shot with a Glock than I was when I was a 1911 shooter with no training.

Now imagine what you could do with a quality 1911 and training. :-)

Semi_auto

04-15-11, 21:31

GIJew766

04-15-11, 21:53

I have owned and trained with several semi custom 1911s and several Glocks. I found that in dynamic drills where either the shooter and/ or the target was moving there was no difference in the way I performed my drills with either weapon. In static drills, fixed shooter/ fixed target I was clearly better with the 1911. YMMV

For me, static or moving (especially when I'm the one moving), I'm better on my 1911s than I am on the polymer pistols. The closest to the 1911s I get in terms of accuracy is from my HK45. Even then, the difference is clear.

And as has been mentioned, I agree that this is the most sane, calm and polite conversation on this subject I have ever seen. Probably because this forum attracts more professionals and serious shooters than the other forums that shall not be named.

H

Striker

04-15-11, 23:59

For me, static or moving (especially when I'm the one moving), I'm better on my 1911s than I am on the polymer pistols. The closest to the 1911s I get in terms of accuracy is from my HK45. Even then, the difference is clear.

And as has been mentioned, I agree that this is the most sane, calm and polite conversation on this subject I have ever seen. Probably because this forum attracts more professionals and serious shooters than the other forums that shall not be named.

H

Out of curiosity, do you think that if you put away the 1911s for a year and worked with the HK 45 exclusively, do you think this would change? I ask because the HK is very accurate. On par with the accuracy of top end 1911, so I'm wondering if it's just that you prefer the 1911, but could do as well with the HK if you worked with it more.

skyugo

04-16-11, 01:02

GIJew766

04-16-11, 06:16

Out of curiosity, do you think that if you put away the 1911s for a year and worked with the HK 45 exclusively, do you think this would change? I ask because the HK is very accurate. On par with the accuracy of top end 1911, so I'm wondering if it's just that you prefer the 1911, but could do as well with the HK if you worked with it more.

When I first got the HK45, I did spend more time with it than I did my 1911s. For about 8 months, I shot nothing but the HK. I had bought it because it felt better in my hands than the USP45 I already owned, and closer to the perfect grip of my 1911s. The more I shot it though, as accurate as both it and I were, I felt myself drifting back to - no longing for - the 1911. Perhaps it is a matter of comfort/familiarity/whatnot. It could be a "crutch" as some people put it. Who the hell cares? (As an aside, SideArmor doesn't make a holster for the HK45, so it wasn't carried in quite the same set up. Just to be fair and give full disclosure.)

At the end of the day, each of us needs to be supremely confident in both our abilities and the abilities of our firearm of choice. If you have doubts about the 1911 in your holster, don't carry it. I have doubts that my accuracy is as good as my 1911s with anything but, and therefore, choose to carry my "crutch." I know my pistols will function reliably whenever I need them to.

Besides, no matter what I carry, if I get into a situation where I need to shoot a bad guy here at home, the media will still report I shot him with a Glock. What difference does it make? :rolleyes:

H

samuse

04-16-11, 06:44

The more I shot it though, as accurate as both it and I were, I felt myself drifting back to - no longing for - the 1911.

the media will still report I shot him with a Glock. What difference does it make? :rolleyes:

I felt the same way when I was trying to convince myself that I was better off with a 1911. I never could get the gun to feel natural to me, like I was concentrating on the gun rather than what I was trying to shoot.

After a few broken parts that led to a non-functioning 1911, I never could regain confidence in them at all, and my shooting suffered because of it. Even though the 1911s I have (now) are very reliable, my mindset just ain't right when I use 'em.

Littlelebowski

04-16-11, 09:39

No worries, I never said it wasn't important. Ill be working with the glocks some more to get up to speed before joining a class. I think Todd Green's class requires a certain standard with a time limit. Haven't tested myself yet, gotta get a shot timer.

It's the opposite for me hence the back and forth. Frankly I'm comfortable with both.

Todd will push you hard on accuracy and reliability. 1911s usually barf during his classes. I believe three have made it through the class without malfunctioning.

chuckman

04-16-11, 09:41

I never could get the gun to feel natural to me, like I was concentrating on the gun rather than what I was trying to shoot.

That's interesting. To me, the 1911 is a very natural extension of my hand. No other good way to describe it, other than "fits me like a glove." It is the ergonomics that I just prefer and am most confortable with, and until the Glock, the gun I shot the most.

The Glock I do have to 'work at' a bit more, but for the sheer durability and stupid-simple way it works, it's a no-brainer.

As for classes, I have shot my 1911 in several classes, some approaching 600 rounds a day, without any issue other than hustling to keep up with loading mags. For the remainder of classes I take I will, however, use my Glock.

GIJew766

04-16-11, 09:52

Not gonna lie, something else that always bothered me about the Glock vs my HKs is the lack of an actual thumb safety. I'd go to either of my HKs before I went back to carrying the Glock for that, if not for the fact that I shoot them better.

As for Todd's classes, I have yet to get to one. If I ever do, however, I'll try my hand at running my pair. If I can find the time and money, I'll be there.

H

Littlelebowski

04-16-11, 10:31

If the choice is between getting quality instruction to be a better shooter or spending money on your collection to be a better owner, I'd prefer to be competent with one pistol.

Always funny how folks with redundant weapons can't find the money to train.

Littlelebowski

04-16-11, 11:53

Not gonna lie, something else that always bothered me about the Glock vs my HKs is the lack of an actual thumb safety. I'd go to either of my HKs before I went back to carrying the Glock for that, if not for the fact that I shoot them better.

Ahem (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?712-The-Gadget-REVEALED) :D

STS

04-16-11, 13:03

After many years of carrying a 1911, I retired mine in 2010 and carried only Glock 19's. I train 1-2 times a week here with a mix of very hard and serious shooters. They are split about 60/40 Glocks to 1911 and they are a mix of ex mil, LEO/SWAT, SWAT medics, SF types. It is funny because never once has any type of conversion like the one we are having come up. Nobody seems to care or focus on whether one should carry a Glock because it is modern, or a 1911 because it is ancient. They only care about the holes in your target.

That said, after a year, I broke out the 1911's and found I still shot them better. Defining better means many things to many people. For me, my accuracy was better both during slow fire, rapid fire, movement, and so forth. Most noticeable for me was drawing from concealment and firing. I was faster and got better hits under time with the 1911. Even after a year with the Glock, I still would have to remind myself to tweak my wrist ever so slightly so as not to point high.

I carry both my Glocks and 1911's predominately in a 5Shot IBS. The 1911 is far more comfortable for me. I'm 6'-4" 220 lbs with broader shoulders and about a 34" waist. I find the Glocks seem to ride right on my hip bone no matter what I do and tend to print more. I was constantly adjusting them. With the 1911, the slide being a little slimmer, seemed to just hug my hip. It is crazy that a heavy 1911 would be more comfortable for me to conceal than a Glock 19, but FOR ME, it is.

The maintenance issues isn't for me. Changing a recoil and firing pin spring on a 1911 every 3,000 is easy. 5 minutes and $8 I'm done. As for parts breakage, I always have a spare extractor, slide stop, FP stop, and other parts with me, just like I do with my Glocks.

Ammo the Glock wins. Lots of rounds for cheap. .45 sucks to buy nowadays. I have a XL 650 so my ammo is even cheaper than 9mm:D Price wise, no comparison. If you don't reload, don't shoot a .45. If you are new to the game, it is damn hard to justify buying anything but a Glock 19. That said, if you are already set up with a quality 1911 and good gear, I see no reason you should suddenly feel as if you are using a sub-par pistol and run out and change everything. If you are comfortable and proficient with a 1911 and understand the platform, you are not at dis-advantage.

I wish Kimbers, Sig 1911's, Para-Ordnance, RIA, Micro 1911's, anything under 5" 1911, etc would just disappear. IMO companies like Kimber have done major harm to the 1911 platform. They build an awesome looking 1911 with all the bells and whistles, and 9 times out of 10, when a buddy of mine new to shooting wants to buy his first gun, it is a Kimber 1911. New shooters just stare at you with blank eyes when you try to explain the 1911 to them and why Kimber is the devil. When I tell them to spend $1,500-$2,000 for a quality 1911, they think I lost my mind.

The main thing one should worry about is how well they shoot. Are you proficient with your carry gun of choice? Do you know how to run your gun well under stress? It seems many of us on the internet get caught up in cool guy stuff, from pistols to AR-15's. Glock 1911, doesn't matter to me what you have, I want to know if you can shoot. That is all anyone ever remembers.

Striker

04-16-11, 13:50

When I first got the HK45, I did spend more time with it than I did my 1911s. For about 8 months, I shot nothing but the HK. I had bought it because it felt better in my hands than the USP45 I already owned, and closer to the perfect grip of my 1911s. The more I shot it though, as accurate as both it and I were, I felt myself drifting back to - no longing for - the 1911. Perhaps it is a matter of comfort/familiarity/whatnot. It could be a "crutch" as some people put it. Who the hell cares? (As an aside, SideArmor doesn't make a holster for the HK45, so it wasn't carried in quite the same set up. Just to be fair and give full disclosure.)

At the end of the day, each of us needs to be supremely confident in both our abilities and the abilities of our firearm of choice. If you have doubts about the 1911 in your holster, don't carry it. I have doubts that my accuracy is as good as my 1911s with anything but, and therefore, choose to carry my "crutch." I know my pistols will function reliably whenever I need them to.

Besides, no matter what I carry, if I get into a situation where I need to shoot a bad guy here at home, the media will still report I shot him with a Glock. What difference does it make? :rolleyes:

H

Thank you. Btw, I wasn't implying it was a crutch. I was really interested in whether you had run the HK for a fair amount of time. I often see people post that they can't shoot a certain weapon. Usually that means a limited amount of trigger time behind that particular weapon. I like shooting different weapons, so I don't suffer from that particular problem, though I'm sure I have plenty of my own.

FWIW, I agree with you and said in an earlier post that if you're most comfortable with a 1911, select a pistol that is combat reliable and you're willing to keep up with the maintenance, why not carry it.

samuse

04-16-11, 15:25

That's interesting. To me, the 1911 is a very natural extension of my hand.

I would probably be the same way, but I had put a lot of rounds downrange with a Glock for about 4 years before I even shot a 1911 for the first time. I'm only 30, so plastic guns have been around as long as I've been on the scene.

I shoot with some older guys who run 1911s (that run and run) because it's what they grew up on. If they switch to plastic, it's almost always an H&K or XD because they can't do the Glock grip angle. I never knew Glocks had a funny grip angle until I read about it on the internet.:D

GIJew766

04-16-11, 16:34

Thank you. Btw, I wasn't implying it was a crutch. I was really interested in whether you had run the HK for a fair amount of time. I often see people post that they can't shoot a certain weapon. Usually that means a limited amount of trigger time behind that particular weapon. I like shooting different weapons, so I don't suffer from that particular problem, though I'm sure I have plenty of my own.

FWIW, I agree with you and said in an earlier post that if you're most comfortable with a 1911, select a pistol that is combat reliable and you're willing to keep up with the maintenance, why not carry it.

As I said before, I'm all about getting the good hits. I could care less what style pistol it is, so long as I am at my peak with it.

As for me running "redundant pistols," and not having the money to train, that ain't entirely the case. When I first bought the pistols (a pair of Nighthawks), I did invest in as much training as I could. Some of it I paid for (Gunsite was a great time, by the way). Others was extra training time when I had the opportunities to go back to Glynco or Artesia.

H

User Name

04-16-11, 16:44

I went form die hard 1911 fan to a only Glock guy. It was when I bought my girlfriend a G19 and decided to play around with it. I just dug it. I shot nearly as well (since I was not accustomed) and thought this is a great gun. I transitioned from 1911's STI's in USPSA to Glocks and never looked back.

rojocorsa

04-16-11, 17:35

As a general-issue gun for big gov/mil/leo, where you have to maintain a large armory of them, sure it's more "practical." I wouldn't say "superseded" universally though, there are cases where the 1911 would still be the preferred tool for the job. If that weren't the case, nobody would still carry them, and no LEO or agency teams would still use them, but they do. Just recently for instance, the officers in my own small town PD transitioned to carrying 1911's on the job. I doubt they did this based on "practical" concerns, from talking to one of the officers, they did it because they thought it would be a more effective fighting gun for their usage scenarios.

I don't really see the 1911 as "superceded" or disappearing from the modern fighting gun scene. It's clearly had a declining role for military and large agency use, driven mostly by cost and practical concerns. And that makes perfect sense. But that doesn't mean it will decline in use at the individual level, or even small LE or agency or selected mil groups.

Novice question: Given a properly trained person, in which scenarios will it be more useful for said person to run a 1911 over a GLOCK or M&P?

You mentioned "usage scenarios." What exactly are we talking about here? It sounds like you have a good point, so I want to know more about it.

***
This thread has a great discussion, but then I just realized that the 1911 has its own subforum. ;)

maximus83

04-16-11, 20:38

Novice question: Given a properly trained person, in which scenarios will it be more useful for said person to run a 1911 over a GLOCK or M&P?

You mentioned "usage scenarios." What exactly are we talking about here? It sounds like you have a good point, so I want to know more about it.

For me personally, though I shoot a 1911 better than my M&P's, it's NOT more advantageous to run a 1911, that's why I have gone to the M&P entirely for carry. I agree with DocGKR's last post that for folks "new to the game," with the modern lower-cost platforms that are easier to maintain (and they are 'accurate enough' for most defensive use), it's hard to recommend to someone relatively new to shooting that they should go buy a $2500 to $3000 pistol. Especially when training and mindset are far more important than which gun you use.

Still, I can't help thinking, after you've had some training, all other things being equal, it's pretty clear that you want a gun that will give you the most accurate shooting possible. For typical police work, for hostage scenarios, for CQC work kicking in doors, heck even for home defense, if I'm going to carry a pistol then I'd want a pistol with a caliber that penetrates well and leaves big holes (.45 acp leaves the biggest holes of the common service calibers). And I'd want something that lets me get a lot of lead downrange in a hurry, as accurately as possible. There are certain things about the 1911 platform that are often cited as being conducive to all the things I just listed: the low bore axis, the slim grip geometry, the short single-action trigger. I think it is fairly widely acknowledged that while the modern polymer combat pistols can do an EXCELLENT job at that, a well tuned 1911 in the hands of a trained user can do an UNPARALLELED job at that--it's the ultimate in performance, if you are a trained shooter and your or your dept. can pay the price (quite literally) to keep a quality 1911 running.

Here's a helpful quote from DocGKR a while back, in the terminal ballistics section. This is probably as sound a general perspective on the 1911 that I've seen, and suggests that for many (maybe most) of us individuals, the modern polymer guns are probably more practical. I know I've reached the same conclusion, EVEN THOUGH I still prefer the 1911 and shoot it better.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
"A properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it."

[Snip some in between comments, then here's the rest].

"I'd strongly recommend anyone contemplating a 1911 for serious use read all of the material on 1911's here: http://www.10-8performance.com/Articles.html. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with the S&W M&P45, HK45, or even a G21sf. After being issued, qualified on, or carrying 1911's for the past 25 years, in 2011 I have retired the 1911's and transitioned to the M&P45 w/ambi safety and Apex duty kit."

Sorry for the long-winded reply; you can tell I've been thinking about this for a while. :-)

DocGKR

04-16-11, 20:48

There are a lot of great 9 mm polymer pistol options (G19, M&P9, HK P30) out there for most free people; however, for those folks stuck in nanny states with illogical, nonsensical restrictions that limit magazines to 10 rounds or less, then the 1911 starts becoming substantially more appealing. For example, if buying a new pistol in a state like California with insipid magazine restrictions--I'd go with a G26, G19 cut for G26 mags, M&P40c, M&P45, HK45c (if one can be located), or a good quality 1911 (ie. no current Kimbers or low end SA's).

awm14hp

04-16-11, 20:57

rojocorsa

04-16-11, 21:24

For me personally, though I shoot a 1911 better than my M&P's, it's NOT more advantageous to run a 1911, that's why I have gone to the M&P entirely for carry. I agree with DocGKR's last post that for folks "new to the game," with the modern lower-cost platforms that are easier to maintain (and they are 'accurate enough' for most defensive use), it's hard to recommend to someone relatively new to shooting that they should go buy a $2500 to $3000 pistol. Especially when training and mindset are far more important than which gun you use.

Still, I can't help thinking, after you've had some training, all other things being equal, it's pretty clear that you want a gun that will give you the most accurate shooting possible. For typical police work, for hostage scenarios, for CQC work kicking in doors, heck even for home defense, if I'm going to carry a pistol then I'd want a pistol with a caliber that penetrates well and leaves big holes (.45 acp leaves the biggest holes of the common service calibers). And I'd want something that lets me get a lot of lead downrange in a hurry, as accurately as possible. There are certain things about the 1911 platform that are often cited as being conducive to all the things I just listed: the low bore axis, the slim grip geometry, the short single-action trigger. I think it is fairly widely acknowledged that while the modern polymer combat pistols can do an EXCELLENT job at that, a well tuned 1911 in the hands of a trained user can do an UNPARALLELED job at that--it's the ultimate in performance, if you are a trained shooter and your or your dept. can pay the price (quite literally) to keep a quality 1911 running.

Here's a helpful quote from DocGKR a while back, in the terminal ballistics section. This is probably as sound a general perspective on the 1911 that I've seen, and suggests that for many (maybe most) of us individuals, the modern polymer guns are probably more practical. I know I've reached the same conclusion, EVEN THOUGH I still prefer the 1911 and shoot it better.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
"A properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it."

[Snip some in between comments, then here's the rest].

"I'd strongly recommend anyone contemplating a 1911 for serious use read all of the material on 1911's here: http://www.10-8performance.com/Articles.html. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with the S&W M&P45, HK45, or even a G21sf. After being issued, qualified on, or carrying 1911's for the past 25 years, in 2011 I have retired the 1911's and transitioned to the M&P45 w/ambi safety and Apex duty kit."

Sorry for the long-winded reply; you can tell I've been thinking about this for a while. :-)

I do appreciate the reply. The reason I made that follow up question is because I wondered why some even bother with all that upkeep and maintenance--when they could just get a GLOCK. If someone that knows what they're doing really performs that much better with a .45, I guess you can't really argue with that.

I actually have that Hilton Yam link bookmarked; every time someone makes a thread on any about their new 1911, I always link this in my reply, regardless. If anything, someone might read it and they could learn something other than internet bullshit on the .45. I hadn't heard of Hilton Yam until a month or two ago, and I am really glad he has those informative pieces up on his site. But, ever since reading his stuff---I've had one big question:

Did military armorers do the same kind of preventive maintenance stuff on M1911A1s during their golden age?

I agree that for someone that is serious and staring out, that a 1911 doesn't make much sense. I used to be an apologetic 1911 internet fanboy when I first got into firearms, but I've moved on into a more practical view on things such as guns. I was saved by the voice of reason. Though I cannot legally purchase a handgun at this time, I am pretty sure I want a GLOCK 17...or a 19. Can't decide. They just make too much sense.

Though I did notice that Doc Roberts mentioned that GLOCKs aren't considered 100% reliable out of the box anymore. I thought they were. What happened?

Also, where is the line between low grade Springfield Armory pistols and the "acceptable" ones? What is wrong with the cheaper ones? I was thinking of buying a Mil-Spec 1911 in the future---but strictly as a range toy/thing to enjoy.

skyugo

04-16-11, 21:46

Though I did notice that Doc Roberts mentioned that GLOCKs aren't considered 100% reliable out of the box anymore. I thought they were. What happened?

gen 3's are still good to go as far as i know. the gen 4's, particularly the 9mm ones have issues still.

Littlelebowski

04-17-11, 06:20

I used to work with an Army Infantry Nam vet who scoffed at all of those folk talking about how 1911s ran so well for three wars and what not. He had to have magazines sent from home to get his issue 1911 running and he said it was common practice to have the pistol oiled up heavily in a plastic bag except for when you were out on patrol.

I'd like to see actual meaningful statistics from the folks who used these in the past rather than just hearing "no one ever complained about it."

I've personally seen a literal PILE of broken and awaiting repair MEU SOC 1911s in the Force Recon Armory at 41 Area, Las Flores on Pendleton. I was a young Corporal and awestruck by all of the exotic (to a grunt) weapons in there. I said something like "wow, it must be an armorer's dream" and the harried looking Cpl armorer running that armory said "no, more like an armorer's nightmare."

chuckman

04-17-11, 09:47

I've personally seen a literal PILE of broken and awaiting repair MEU SOC 1911s in the Force Recon Armory at 41 Area, Las Flores on Pendleton. I was a young Corporal and awestruck by all of the exotic (to a grunt) weapons in there. I said something like "wow, it must be an armorer's dream" and the harried looking Cpl armorer running that armory said "no, more like an armorer's nightmare."

I have seen the same thing at Lejeune many years ago. I like the 1911, my fave of all pistols, and Iam sure that for some unique .mil units they may be the better platform, but for the average Joe on patrol, there are just too many better pistols.

We have gone from quality-repair-it-till-you-cannot society to a disposable-buy-it-on-the-cheap society, and there just isn't much vaule for most people, militaries, governmental agencies, or police departments to pour all sorts of love and attention into keeping a 1911 alive and running when you can get a gun at half the cost that will run 10 times longer with a tenth of the maintenance.

rojocorsa

04-17-11, 16:57

and there just isn't much vaule for most people, militaries, governmental agencies, or police departments to pour all sorts of love and attention into keeping a 1911 alive and running when you can get a gun at half the cost that will run 10 times longer with a tenth of the maintenance.

...because that frankly makes so much more sense.

I used to work with an Army Infantry Nam vet who scoffed at all of those folk talking about how 1911s ran so well for three wars and what not. He had to have magazines sent from home to get his issue 1911 running and he said it was common practice to have the pistol oiled up heavily in a plastic bag except for when you were out on patrol.

I'd like to see actual meaningful statistics from the folks who used these in the past rather than just hearing "no on ever complained about it."

I've personally seen a literal PILE of broken and awaiting repair MEU SOC 1911s in the Force Recon Armory at 41 Area, Las Flores on Pendleton. I was a young Corporal and awestruck by all of the exotic (to a grunt) weapons in there. I said something like "wow, it must be an armorer's dream" and the harried looking Cpl armorer running that armory said "no, more like an armorer's nightmare."

Yes! Some down-to-earth observations about these guns. That's what I want to see more of. The way people talk about all the classic USGI weapons, they make them seem infallible and thus overrated. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of old school USGI stuff too.

JHC

04-17-11, 17:13

gen 3's are still good to go as far as i know. the gen 4's, particularly the 9mm ones have issues still.

Glock managed to create a 100% reliability reputation but if one were to spend the last 10 years reading the forum of "the unwashed" - lowly GT that "hard use" forums look down their bandwidth at they have long known that the Glock was not a 100% guarantee of reliability either. Just better than most. Probably still is.

What is up with this growing web phenom of shooters that need a guarantee (from the factory or from internet gun SMEs) that the pistol they buy will NEVER hiccup? Good luck with that.

Some Gen 3's will have stoppages too. The only 3 stoppages I saw last year across over 11K rds of 9mm through Glocks was in some of my Gen 3's. It's no big deal.

GIJew766

04-17-11, 20:14

What is up with this growing web phenom of shooters that need a guarantee (from the factory or from internet gun SMEs) that the pistol they buy will NEVER hiccup? Good luck with that.

My theory is that, as someone has said already, we've gone from a society that prided itself on rugged self-reliance to one that seeks instant and total satisfaction. There was once a time when men would fix their own cars, repair their own plumbing, etc. Nowadays, those of us who do those things are the exception, not the rule.

I've made my position on the reliability of the 1911 pretty clear. And hell, I'm in the process of trying to see if I can't test Hilton's most recent postings about the external extractor in a 1911. If Bob over at Fusion says he can do it, I may very well commission a pair of his pistols with a smattering of BLASPHEMY PARTS! Rail, FLGR, and the EE! If it happens, I'll keep y'all posted. Maybe after getting a feel for them, take them through a course or two (or more) with Todd and others. Woohoo!

UPDATE: Literally, as soon as I posted this response, I got a reply from Mr. Serva. Unfortunately, as of right now, Fusion does not do E.E. slides. I have asked that, if I provide an external extractor frame from Caspian, would be build my pair of pistols as otherwise specified. What I love, though, is the customer service over at Fusion. I emailed Bob this afternoon, a SUNDAY, and got a response back within hours. For me, that's just good people right there. Knowing how solid his pistols are, I'll still probably buy a pair from him - even without the external extractors I requested. If you read this site Bob, I just wanted to say THANK YOU and I truly appreciate it.

H

StrikerFired

04-17-11, 21:23

jmlshooter

04-18-11, 10:25

With the 1911, you've just got to have a lot of things go right for you. My 1911s run anywhere from great to poorly based upon magazines alone. I can run 200 rounds through mine with ACT Magazines and not have a single problem. On the other hand, the Colt OEM Magazines will flat not run the gun. Then you add in ammunition type, recoil spring strength, lubrication, extractor tension, etc.

If it's just me, fine. If I'm out with my family and there's a 0.1% risk that the gun will not function/feed/extract reliably after the first round, that's an excessive risk to me.

Everyone's different. Variety is great.

Littlelebowski

04-18-11, 11:06

I think of it as an Acura NSX versus a Ferarri. The Ferarri might be marginally faster around the track in the hands of equally matched drivers but you don't need a mechanic on call for the Acura and it doubles as a daily driver.

uwe1

04-18-11, 11:17

uwe1

04-18-11, 11:20

Glock managed to create a 100% reliability reputation but if one were to spend the last 10 years reading the forum of "the unwashed" - lowly GT that "hard use" forums look down their bandwidth at they have long known that the Glock was not a 100% guarantee of reliability either. Just better than most. Probably still is.

What is up with this growing web phenom of shooters that need a guarantee (from the factory or from internet gun SMEs) that the pistol they buy will NEVER hiccup? Good luck with that.

Some Gen 3's will have stoppages too. The only 3 stoppages I saw last year across over 11K rds of 9mm through Glocks was in some of my Gen 3's. It's no big deal.

My Glock 17, which now has north of 4K rounds through it, has only had one stoppage. It ran fine with brass or steel cased ammo. I finally took the slide apart to clean it.

It shocked the hell out of me when it happened.

GIJew766

04-18-11, 13:35

Got the response back from Bob Serva who said that he would be glad to build me a 1911 with the external extractor so long as I provided the slide(s). I'll be sending him a pair of Caspian E.E. slides, completely in the nude, for him to work his magic on. As of right now, the price per pistol for the matching pair is going to run me about $2300 or so. Not too bad, considering my Nighthawks ran me about $600 more a piece. As soon as the overtime pays off, the project will be started.

H

Semi_auto

04-18-11, 21:21

T-TAC

04-19-11, 06:14

I pretty much came to the same conclusion as the OP. I have carried for over 25 years. Pretty much carried everything. I have a Glock 19 I have had since 1994 and always go back to that for carry.
I had one feed jam a few years ago( Which was probably just a bad mag spring) called Glock and they sent me every spring in the gun and the gun was back to new. Other than that one jam, it was always 100% reliable.
I got off the 1911 train when the prices started hitting $3000- $4000.
Crazy! I have seen 1911's run great and then jam and after that run great again.
Hilton Yam has a post on the 10-8 Forum about the new Smith And Wesson E series 1911. It looked like a good buy. Then he goes into how the spring are too short , etc. etc.
Yea, like I want to spend $1000 on a brand new 1911 and then take it apart and put correct spec parts in it just so the gun runs right.
And this isn't just S&W. I have even seen some shoddy stuff on the high end guns.
I own 4 1911's at this time in the vault. The Glock 19 is loaded up and ready to protect me and my family.

GIJew766

04-19-11, 08:07

Hilton Yam has a post on the 10-8 Forum about the new Smith And Wesson E series 1911. It looked like a good buy. Then he goes into how the spring are too short , etc. etc.
Yea, like I want to spend $1000 on a brand new 1911 and then take it apart and put correct spec parts in it just so the gun runs right.
And this isn't just S&W. I have even seen some shoddy stuff on the high end guns.

I had mentioned Hilton's post prior, and also mentioned that a properly set up 1911 with an external extractor (which I'm in the process of having Bob set up for me) should run like a stuck pig. The problem with the 1911, and I know the purists out there would have my stones for this, is that people are completely fine with leaving it as is (the status quo has remained largely unchanged since 1980 or so).

A change is in the wind for the 1911. I have a feeling that, when properly done, the external extractor stands to make Ol' Slabsides less of a "heirloom" firearm and more of a reasonable and reliable service pistol.

H

Littlelebowski

04-19-11, 09:48

I
A change is in the wind for the 1911. I have a feeling that, when properly done, the external extractor stands to make Ol' Slabsides less of a "heirloom" firearm and more of a reasonable and reliable service pistol.

You do know that Sig and S&W have been doing external extractors for years, right? So once the external extractors are sorted, quality mags that run right will need to be matched to and sold with the pistol. Then the market will demand a feeding setup that can handle anything from 165gr to 230gr. And it won't work. Then the purist will blather on about the weapon being designed for 230gr ball. And on and on it will go.

JonInWA

04-19-11, 13:01

I think that SIG (and presumably also S&W) have resolved previous issues with their external extractors. SIG's was a combination of hook geometry and originally going with stainless steel-not the best of ideas for a component consistantly undergoing flexation and stress. My understanding is that they boh revised the geometry and the material-I haven't tracked a lot of SIG 1911 extractor issues lately (I'm personally running a Bruce Gray carbon steel one as a long-term test bed; it's been flawless for over a thousand rounds to date).

While I've encountered zero issues with my OEM internal extractor on my Nighthawk Talon II, which has had about 2K rounds cycled through it, and had a similar lack of drama with a previously owned Colt Custom Shop Enhanced Combat Commander, my preference is towards an external extractor; Hilton nicely summed up the pros and cons of each in his blog.

Magazine match-up certainly a crucial component to a given 1911; my personal preference is to Check-Mate 8 round hybrid feed lip/skirted/dimpled metal follower magazines for all of my 1911s.

It will be interesting seeing how the new Ruger 1911 does-it's running an internal extractor and Check-Mate magazines.

Best, Jon

GIJew766

04-19-11, 13:40

You do know that Sig and S&W have been doing external extractors for years, right? So once the external extractors are sorted, quality mags that run right will need to be matched to and sold with the pistol. Then the market will demand a feeding setup that can handle anything from 165gr to 230gr. And it won't work. Then the purist will blather on about the weapon being designed for 230gr ball. And on and on it will go.

I do indeed know that. In fact, I have on more than one occasion gotten to shoot them both extensively. As Jon mentioned before I got here, the SIG and S&W models were originally having issues with reliable extraction due to hook geometry. Now, S&W seemed to have gotten that bit sorted out, but they are still not using springs that meet the required specifications for reliable long term function.

When I said what I did, I meant to imply that, somewhere down the road, the platform will take another evolutionary step and it seems to be a properly set up external extractor. Caspian makes a slide set up, that when paired with the proper magazines, functions more or less flawlessly in a well set-up pistol. Will the E.E. solve all of the problems generally associated with the 1911? Hell no. It would be naive to think that. But it is a step in the right direction.

Figure it this way: Remove the issue of having to be a fairly experienced and skilled armorer in order to maintain your weapon by using the external extractor. Pair that slide with a properly angled feed ramp, quality ammunition and good magazines (Tripp, McCormack or Wilson) and you have a pistol that works just fine. And anyone who tells you the 1911 won't feed reliably with hollowpoints is an assclown. All of mine run fine with Golden Saber, Ranger, etc. My Nighthawks have yet to have a hiccup with anything other than a magazine that is my own damn fault for not examining before using on the range (I had stepped on it when it fell out of my bag and apparently messed up the lips).

Alas, you are correct that the purists are holding back the platform. Glock fans have managed to acknowledge certain short comings (per the "device" you linked, as well as the G.F.A.s), and the pistols are that much the better for it. Until the "purists" can accept that sometimes change isn't a bad thing (don't let 500Grains see that), the evolution of the 1911 will be severely retarded. I choose mine because they just shoot better than my Glocks. They have proven themselves, over the 6500 rounds or so, to be just as reliable except for the lone magazine issue. It boils down to personal choice. If the Glock works for you, shoot the ever-loving shit out of it. If the 1911 works best for me, I intend to do the same.

H

QuietShootr

04-19-11, 14:10

It's not just romance with the 1911. It's excitement.

The Glock is the girl you know is going to be ready to go out on time, has a big ass, doesn't go psycho, and remembers birthdays and family members' names.

The 1911 is the smokin' six-foot blonde who may flip out and cuss and hit you in public if things don't go her way.

Fixt that for you.

Littlelebowski

04-19-11, 18:16

Well said. I would add "corrosion free finished parts and weapon."

Sadly, I don't think the evolution is coming. Too many purists and too many companies willing to churn out cheap crap because it will sell.

I do indeed know that. In fact, I have on more than one occasion gotten to shoot them both extensively. As Jon mentioned before I got here, the SIG and S&W models were originally having issues with reliable extraction due to hook geometry. Now, S&W seemed to have gotten that bit sorted out, but they are still not using springs that meet the required specifications for reliable long term function.

When I said what I did, I meant to imply that, somewhere down the road, the platform will take another evolutionary step and it seems to be a properly set up external extractor. Caspian makes a slide set up, that when paired with the proper magazines, functions more or less flawlessly in a well set-up pistol. Will the E.E. solve all of the problems generally associated with the 1911? Hell no. It would be naive to think that. But it is a step in the right direction.

Figure it this way: Remove the issue of having to be a fairly experienced and skilled armorer in order to maintain your weapon by using the external extractor. Pair that slide with a properly angled feed ramp, quality ammunition and good magazines (Tripp, McCormack or Wilson) and you have a pistol that works just fine. And anyone who tells you the 1911 won't feed reliably with hollowpoints is an assclown. All of mine run fine with Golden Saber, Ranger, etc. My Nighthawks have yet to have a hiccup with anything other than a magazine that is my own damn fault for not examining before using on the range (I had stepped on it when it fell out of my bag and apparently messed up the lips).

Alas, you are correct that the purists are holding back the platform. Glock fans have managed to acknowledge certain short comings (per the "device" you linked, as well as the G.F.A.s), and the pistols are that much the better for it. Until the "purists" can accept that sometimes change isn't a bad thing (don't let 500Grains see that), the evolution of the 1911 will be severely retarded. I choose mine because they just shoot better than my Glocks. They have proven themselves, over the 6500 rounds or so, to be just as reliable except for the lone magazine issue. It boils down to personal choice. If the Glock works for you, shoot the ever-loving shit out of it. If the 1911 works best for me, I intend to do the same.

H

GIJew766

04-20-11, 18:09

Well said. I would add "corrosion free finished parts and weapon."

Sadly, I don't think the evolution is coming. Too many purists and too many companies willing to churn out cheap crap because it will sell.

Well, the former is kind of a no brainer, and most of the more reputable shops are already doing it.

As for the purists out there...

How long did it take before the 1911 got the beavertailed grip safety we all know and love? How long did it take before the 1911 got decent sights? How long until the 1911 got a RAIL? I mean, hell, I still get crap from some of the guys I shoot with because my 1911s run lights on the rail.

I told them the plan, plus showed them the build sheet for the custom external extractor set-up I'm ordering from Fusion, and they went BALLISTIC! My whole reason for the pistol is to test the reliability. If this can be a relatively minor change (I know, it isn't a small thing) that makes a dramatic difference in the reliability of the platform, then I'm all for it. I'm pretty open to the idea of modifying the 1911. I mean, all those purists can keep their pistols, and I'll subscribe to the evolutionary change. The argument that JMB built it perfect is retarded. That would be like saying that you shouldn't use cell phones or anything, because Bell didn't make 'em that way.

H

bgoode

04-20-11, 20:15

I love the 1911 but having multiples set up the same = $$$ + effort

I have my 1 TRS Baer

But I prefer to run my G19's and G26's that now point like a 1911 (thanks Ben) and I can work on them if needed at home :)

GIJew766

04-20-11, 20:31

I agree to an extent that having the identical pair is cost prohibitive to most. For me, however, I'm unable to put a price on the life of my better half or my dog. As for the work required, I again liken it to maintaining a classic car. Doing all that work to maintain a beast (like my 67 Mustang or my brother's 71 Chevelle SS) makes the performance of the machine that much more rewarding. Same goes for my 1911s.

And hell, as I keep saying, maybe this set up from Fusion that I'm prepping will solve some of the maintenance and reliability issues generally associated with the platform (I know SIG and S&W do the EE, but the pistols are poorly set up otherwise, including out of spec springs and feed ramps).

Lost River

05-03-11, 08:19

After carrying an issued G19 for a number of years overseas as an issued work gun, as well as being the outfit's armorer, when our regular armorer was out on break, I have nothing but praise for the G19.

Yes, they do have some small parts breakage, but as compared to others, they are extremely few and far between.

The vast majority of the time, if I had any repair work to do on a G19, it was because some "high speed" guy who thought he knew what he was doing had monkey f**ked with his gun and made unauthorized alterations to make himself "ninja fast".

As much as I love my 1911s, I carry a gen 3 G19 at home, off duty more.

Besides, I keep mulitple stock gen 3 G19s as spares. Pretty much everyone can pick one up and shoot one well enough.

In an emergency where I may be incapacitated, that attribute of the G19 could come in handy. One never knows.

Camels dig guys who carry G19s:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/SanitizedCamelKiss.jpg

maximus83

05-03-11, 09:46

Camels dig guys who carry G19s:

That is a great picture. :-)

Beat Trash

05-03-11, 10:30

Not trying to be offensive, but has anyone ever told you that your beard was camel colored?

By the way, I agree totally about your comments on the Glock 19.

Lost River

05-03-11, 11:12

Beat trash,

The beard is "camelflage"

Bwahahaha!!!:sarcastic:

Beat Trash

05-03-11, 17:26

Good one...

TXBob

05-07-11, 11:11

I got out my recent purchase M&P and was showing it to my son who is in love with my Springfield Officer's model.

They are literally the same size.

1 holds 7 rounds.
1 holds 18 rounds.

Which do you want?

Also he was crushed after watching Tactical Arms and he heard Vickers say don't get anything smaller than full size...

That's what finally did it for me (ammo capacity). I've never liked the "if you treat your gun like a lawn mower..." analogy, but the Ferrari vs NSX is more apt. I think of it as a Honda/Toyoda vs Corvette. I wouldn't drive my sports car to work, the mall, the store, etc... That daily grind on a 3k gun is kinda rough. If I could get a $500 1911 that I could abuse with daily use, well then things might be different. But I liberated myself to a hi-cap state, the magazine ban has sunset, so the time had come to switch.

Ian111

05-08-11, 00:46

I've never liked the "if you treat your gun like a lawn mower..." analogy,

When I first read about Ken Hackathorn saying that I initially took it as a backhanded insult towards Glocks. But its really not. Its more a comment about people who treat their pistols like a lawnmower and its really a compliment towards Glocks. Because Mr. Hackathorn does like Glocks.

What I never liked is the comparison of defensive handguns to luxury cars and "econo" cars. If that was true a Honda Accord (Glock) would not be able to race and beat a Ferrari 458(Custom 1911, HK, SIG, whatever). Because Dave Sevigny could beat almost anyone shooting the most expensive handgun in the world with a box stock G34. Michael Schumacher could not beat almost anyone in a Honda Accord against someone driving a Ferrari 458 no matter how hard he tried. The car analogy only works regarding handguns as status symbols and not a handgun's capabilities. And that is exactly where the priority of people who use the car analogy lies. Guns as status symbols.

Semi_auto

05-08-11, 01:22

What I never liked is the comparison of defensive handguns to luxury cars and "econo" cars. If that was true a Honda Accord (Glock) would not be able to race and beat a Ferrari 458(Custom 1911, HK, SIG, whatever). Because Dave Sevigny could beat almost anyone shooting the most expensive handgun in the world with a box stock G34. Michael Schumacher could not beat almost anyone in a Honda Accord against someone driving a Ferrari 458 no matter how hard he tried. The car analogy only works regarding handguns as status symbols and not a handgun's capabilities. And that is exactly where the priority of people who use the car analogy lies. Guns as status symbols.

It's all about context, Schumacher at Leguna Speedway in an Accord versus John Q. in a Ferrari 458 and John Q. gets his ass handed to him every-time.

The analogy made earlier (NSX versus Ferrari) was the best I've heard because while both cars are world class, one is significantly less labor intensive (with regards to service) than the other.

With regards to status I agree, it seems people become more preoccupied with what makes them look and feel good than what is necessary and practical.

Ian111

05-08-11, 02:27

It's all about context, Schumacher at Leguna Speedway in an Accord versus John Q. in a Ferrari 458 and John Q. gets his ass handed to him every-time.

Okay, fine. Its a 0-180 mph drag race.:big_boss:

Unless John Q stalls the Ferrari that is...

GIJew766

05-08-11, 10:13

With regards to status I agree, it seems people become more preoccupied with what makes them look and feel good than what is necessary and practical.

Just reiterating my point: I choose the 1911 because it performs best in my hands. I choose to partake in the "labor intensive" process to keep mine running. The difference in performance is quantifiable between my Glocks and 1911s.

I like the analogy of the minus rating of a baseball bat. Some folks choose a heavier bat. Some a lighter one. Whichever weight they get the best performance out of is the one they stick with and the one their skipper would prefer them to use. I you shoot your Glock better, stick with it. I shoot the 1911 best and intend to stick with it until I shoot something else better.

H

H

Sensei

05-08-11, 11:15

During my last trip to Kabul I got to work alongside with DEA / US Marshals using Springfield PRO's, Germans using HKs, OGA using G19's, and other .mil personnel using M9's/M11's. There was not a significant difference in accuracy or reliability among these weapons because the users trained extensively with their platform and performed reasonable preventive maintenance.

The few times that I tried another platform at the range was a predictable disaster due to the amount of time I've spent on the M9.

GIJew766

05-08-11, 11:22

Lanesmith, I see we're in agreement here. The whole point is that what works for one might not necessarily work for another. Regardless, so long as the good guys are all proficient with their weapon of choice, who cares what it is? In the end, it only matters that rounds find their way to the target.

What's the old saying? Something along the lines of how, one hundred years from now, the details of range, conditions, caliber and platform will all be forgotten. Only the end result will be immortalized.

H

TXBob

05-08-11, 11:26

When I first read about Ken Hackathorn saying that I initially took it as a backhanded insult towards Glocks. But its really not. Its more a comment about people who treat their pistols like a lawnmower and its really a compliment towards Glocks. Because Mr. Hackathorn does like Glocks.

What I never liked is the comparison of defensive handguns to luxury cars and "econo" cars. If that was true a Honda Accord (Glock) would not be able to race and beat a Ferrari 458(Custom 1911, HK, SIG, whatever). Because Dave Sevigny could beat almost anyone shooting the most expensive handgun in the world with a box stock G34. Michael Schumacher could not beat almost anyone in a Honda Accord against someone driving a Ferrari 458 no matter how hard he tried. The car analogy only works regarding handguns as status symbols and not a handgun's capabilities. And that is exactly where the priority of people who use the car analogy lies. Guns as status symbols.

You missed the point of the analogy and are too butthurt about some perceived insult to glocks. The entire point is that for daily work you need a reliable dependable piece of equipment rather than an expensive look at me trophy that us in the shop all the time

Sensei

05-08-11, 11:46

I generally carry a G19 when not deployed due to its compact size. However, I transition back to my Beretta 92FS about 3 months prior to a deployment because it most resembles the M9 that I will be issued. I carry it exclusively and try to get at least 2-4K rounds through it before heading downrange (a lot more time and rounds are spent on my primary weapon system). After this adjustment period, I'm just as accurate with the M9 as my G19 despite the double action first round. It is all a matter of training, training, training....

I'd be more than happy to carry a G19, M9, M11, M&P, or Semi-Custom 1911 as a SECONDARY WEAPON if the Army would give me 4000 rounds and 3 months to train before going downrange.

Semi_auto

05-08-11, 20:44

Just reiterating my point: I choose the 1911 because it performs best in my hands. I choose to partake in the "labor intensive" process to keep mine running. The difference in performance is quantifiable between my Glocks and 1911s.

Understood. If you can do your own maintenance that's good. I am just tired of trying to find someone local who is trustworthy or sending the 1911 out to make sure all parts fit and function within spec.

Sensei

05-08-11, 23:52

Understood. If you can do your own maintenance that's good. I am just tired of trying to find someone local who is trustworthy or sending the 1911 out to make sure all parts fit and function within spec.

I don't think that it is a coincidence that all of the 1911s that I see in the sandbox are semi-custom and would cost at least $2.5K if purchased on the civilian market. I define semi-custom as being mass produced but hand assembled by competent smiths and passing stringent quality standards. That is the price you pay to have a combat ready 1911 as a civilian. I own 2 PROs and naturally think that they are the best value in a semi-custom 1911 that can be taken into harm's way out of the box. Of course, there are acceptable alternatives made by Wilson, Ed Brown, NH, etc. and they can all be had for about 2.5K ;)

Ian111

05-09-11, 02:23

You missed the point of the analogy and are too butthurt about some perceived insult to glocks. The entire point is that for daily work you need a reliable dependable piece of equipment rather than an expensive look at me trophy that us in the shop all the time

No I didn't miss the point of your analogy. I was just saying car analogies in general more often than not are about status symbols. I actually thought the way you used the car analogy was more apt regarding those guns. But I guess you were butthurt because I didnt' say that.

GIJew766

05-09-11, 09:16

Understood. If you can do your own maintenance that's good. I am just tired of trying to find someone local who is trustworthy or sending the 1911 out to make sure all parts fit and function within spec.

For the majority of things, I do. I have several pre-fit and tuned extractors for my pair of Nighthawks, and I'm in the process of putting the funds together to send to Bob Serva for one or two custom set-ups to test Hilton's assertion that an external extractor in a PROPERLY SET UP 1911 would solve the majority of the maintenance concerns people have with the 1911 platform. We shall see.

I don't think that it is a coincidence that all of the 1911s that I see in the sandbox are semi-custom and would cost at least $2.5K if purchased on the civilian market. I define semi-custom as being mass produced but hand assembled by competent smiths and passing stringent quality standards. That is the price you pay to have a combat ready 1911 as a civilian. I own 2 PROs and naturally think that they are the best value in a semi-custom 1911 that can be taken into harm's way out of the box. Of course, there are acceptable alternatives made by Wilson, Ed Brown, NH, etc. and they can all be had for about 2.5K ;)

I had a PC9111LR for a while and loved it. Sold it and one of my Wilson models to fund the purchase of a pair of identical Nighthawks. The PC9111LR was carried in harms way and I never had a doubt. The Nighthawk(s) are carried now (one or the other) daily. No doubts in my mind that they will go bang when I need them to; just like there is no doubt that the '67 K-Code will turn over on the first attempt Sunday afternoons...:D

H

Omega Man

05-09-11, 23:45

For the majority of things, I do. I have several pre-fit and tuned extractors for my pair of Nighthawks, and I'm in the process of putting the funds together to send to Bob Serva for one or two custom set-ups to test Hilton's assertion that an external extractor in a PROPERLY SET UP 1911 would solve the majority of the maintenance concerns people have with the 1911 platform. We shall see.

I had a PC9111LR for a while and loved it. Sold it and one of my Wilson models to fund the purchase of a pair of identical Nighthawks. The PC9111LR was carried in harms way and I never had a doubt. The Nighthawk(s) are carried now (one or the other) daily. No doubts in my mind that they will go bang when I need them to; just like there is no doubt that the '67 K-Code will turn over on the first attempt Sunday afternoons...:D

H

You might want to think twice about sending your 1911 to Bob Serva. I ordered a pistol from him last year and for $1900, i received a pistol that couldn't get thru one magazine fired without multiple FTF and failure to go into battery. I had to tap the back of the slide to get the pistol into battery. And the rear sight became loose after the 1st few mags fired. The pistol didn't work and Serva told me to keep trying to run it. I was fed up after 3 trips to the range and then Serva told me, that i had to pay the shipping round trip. That didn't sit right with me after spending almost 2 grand. At that point, i didn't have much confidence that the pistol would be fixed, so i sold it at a huge loss.

There are many more unhappy Fusion customer's that have been getting crap pistols from them. Go on Glocktalk. In the 1911 forums, look up threads on Fusion. You will find them to be eye opening.

GIJew766

05-10-11, 09:26

You might want to think twice about sending your 1911 to Bob Serva. I ordered a pistol from him last year and for $1900, i received a pistol that couldn't get thru one magazine fired without multiple FTF and failure to go into battery. I had to tap the back of the slide to get the pistol into battery. And the rear sight became loose after the 1st few mags fired. The pistol didn't work and Serva told me to keep trying to run it. I was fed up after 3 trips to the range and then Serva told me, that i had to pay the shipping round trip. That didn't sit right with me after spending almost 2 grand. At that point, i didn't have much confidence that the pistol would be fixed, so i sold it at a huge loss.

There are many more unhappy Fusion customer's that have been getting crap pistols from them. Go on Glocktalk. In the 1911 forums, look up threads on Fusion. You will find them to be eye opening.

I've had experience with Serva's work before and never been anything but satisfied. The only reason I'm carrying the Nighthawks at the moment is because I sold the Fusion to a friend after he shot it a few times at the range. I only had a pair of failures to feed with that pistol which were traced to a bad magazine. Sorry to hear about your bad experience, but Bob has never steered me wrong.

H