View Full Version : Sig 229 9mm DAK to Glock 19 Gen 3/Gen 4?
I work for the largest PD in Illinois that until about 2 years ago, did not authorize Glocks, M&Ps, or XDs. I haven't been unhappy with my Sig 229 9mm DAK, but I really enjoy shooting and firearms in general and am seriously considering buying a Glock 19 for duty. However, I am torn on the Gen 3 versus Gen 4 debate. For all the forum members, especially DocGKR and LAV, what would personally convince you to trust your life with a Glock 19 Gen 4?
F-Trooper05
04-14-11, 00:30
You may find the current PT endurance test useful in your decision...
http://pistol-training.com
Beat Trash
04-14-11, 03:34
Gen 3 Glock 19.
Some have had good luck with Gen4 guns. But some have not.
The Gen3 guns work...
John_Wayne777
04-14-11, 06:37
Not to speak for either man, but I believe both would advise you to stick with the Gen3 as a duty gun. Even then, you should thoroughly test the Gen3 gun to make sure none of Glock's recent changes will impact that weapon.
Personally speaking...if your Sig P229 is running well and doing what you want it to do, and if you don't find it to be a major impediment to anything you're doing...sticking with it would be my advice.
If this is a duty weapon, what problem are you trying to solve or prevent by changing?
Not to speak for either man, but I believe both would advise you to stick with the Gen3 as a duty gun. Even then, you should thoroughly test the Gen3 gun to make sure none of Glock's recent changes will impact that weapon.
Personally speaking...if your Sig P229 is running well and doing what you want it to do, and if you don't find it to be a major impediment to anything you're doing...sticking with it would be my advice.
What are the changes are you talking about? Good/bad?
I know that I'm looking at the Gen 3 Glock 19 to purchase soon so would like to know of any shortcomings.
Thanks
If this is a duty weapon, what problem are you trying to solve or prevent by changing?
Well, I can't say that I'm trying to solve a problem or prevent one. Rather, I simply enjoy shooting, appreciate many different types of firearms, and wanted to try a different platform. I have 10 years in law enforcement, and was issued a Glock 17 with my first PD. So, I do already have familiarity with Glocks. I liked how the M&P 9mm felt and shot, but wanted something closer in size to my P229. If I do make the change, I would need something that is flat-out reliable if/when the time comes and is concealable for off-duty carry.
John_Wayne777
04-14-11, 08:42
What are the changes are you talking about? Good/bad?
I know that I'm looking at the Gen 3 Glock 19 to purchase soon so would like to know of any shortcomings.
Thanks
They changed the extractor fairly recently even on the 3rd gen guns and I've seen a couple of reports of those guns having some issues.
Stick with Gen3 and like JW stated .... one made prior to 2010 just for good measure.
I recently got rid of my Gen4 as it just never proved itself 100% for me. I am back to all Gen3 and have NO regrets.
Bulldog7972
04-15-11, 09:58
Not to speak for either man, but I believe both would advise you to stick with the Gen3 as a duty gun. Even then, you should thoroughly test the Gen3 gun to make sure none of Glock's recent changes will impact that weapon.
Personally speaking...if your Sig P229 is running well and doing what you want it to do, and if you don't find it to be a major impediment to anything you're doing...sticking with it would be my advice.
I'll second that. I also work for the 2nd largest Police department in the nation and carry a 226DAK. For awhile I was sipping the Glock koolaid and was thinking about trading that 226 in for a G17 until I came to my senses and asked myself why. I have never had a malfunction with my Sig, it has served me well all these years especially when I have needed it, I have tons of mags for it along with all the duty gear. So why get rid of it and go to something else? Plus, once you take that transition course (if it ever becomes available) you cannot carry that Sig anymore. Will you become more proficient with a new Glock? Is there anthing that one can do with a Glock that cannot be done witha Sig? I doubt it. I would suggest that you would be better served by keeping the Sig and using the money you were going to spend on a new Glock for some training courses outside the department. I guarantee you that if you keep that Sig, get some REAL training outside the department you will be a far better shooter with that Sig than most of the guys are with their Glocks. Just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth.
BTW, are you in Area 1,2,3,4 or 5?
what would personally convince you to trust your life with a Glock 19 Gen 4?
The 3200 rounds through mine without a stoppage has been persuasive to me. A similiar round count with only one stoppage in my Gen 3 G19 is also persuassive to me that it too is trustworthy.
I know how you feel being a LEO myself. However, playing musical chairs with your deadly force tool can be counterproductive. The muscle memory and instinctual operation of your pistol takes many thousands of rounds of dynamic training to be where it needs to be. As a LEO, you attract far more deadly force situations than the average citizen gun collector, and your skill should take priority over the latest gun flavor of the year.
IF, your P229 has any problems with reliability and/or durability then I would consider replacing it. If you go Glock, just make sure that you put a lot of ammo downrange with dynamic training to get back where you left off with the P229. IF, you have not had any problems with the P229, and you are very proficient in its use, I suggest that you continue to use it. The grass is rarely greener on the other side.
Beat Trash
04-15-11, 12:35
Well, I can't say that I'm trying to solve a problem or prevent one. Rather, I simply enjoy shooting, appreciate many different types of firearms, and wanted to try a different platform. I have 10 years in law enforcement, and was issued a Glock 17 with my first PD. So, I do already have familiarity with Glocks. I liked how the M&P 9mm felt and shot, but wanted something closer in size to my P229. If I do make the change, I would need something that is flat-out reliable if/when the time comes and is concealable for off-duty carry.
You have prior experience with the Glock. Many so far have given very valid reasons for staying with what you have. I can't argue against their logic.
I would suggest you rent or borrow a Glock 19. Shoot it side by side with your Sig. Which gun can you shoot better? My Sigs are the some of the most mechanically accurate guns I own, yet I can shot my Glock 9mm's more proficiently. My shot to shot recovery is faster, and I shot on the move more accurately with my Glock 9mm's.
The overall size of the Glock 19 (and the Sig 229) is a personal favorite for me. Big enough to shoot like a full size gun, small enough to still conceal.
When it cones to duty guns, I agree that changing just for the sake of change is a bad idea.
Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful responses. This is definitely the place to visit for honest, knowledgeable advice. After much thought, it looks like I will keep my trusty Sig at my side for duty. However, I think I will indulge and buy a Glock or M&P eventually for recreational shooting.
BTW, I'm currently in Area 3, after bouncing around the city earlier in my career.
1st watch -- Sounds like you have made a reasoned decision for now. Before ever considering switching duty weapons, you would definitely want to spend quite a bit of time evaluating your options. Get a 3rd gen G19 or M&P9 and shoot several thousand rounds--static, on the move, against the timer, and at various distances. Take the new pistol to a good high round count shooting class. Compare your efforts against your current P229. If the new pistol proves to be better, only then make the switch based on logical criteria and factual results.
I like the Sigs a lot myself, but I love the Gen 4 Glocks and carry them daily and shoot them often. I have a Gen 4 17 and a 19 with the recoil rods that are supposed to be the bad ones and have had zero problems with my 17 in about 3500-3800 rounds. My 19 I have had 2 FTE in the first few hundred rounds, but now I'm around 2500 on the round count with no problems at all.
Buy what you like. But really think about making a change if you have no problems with your current platform and you shoot it well. JMO
You may find the current PT endurance test useful in your decision...
http://pistol-training.com
has this put anyone else off to the Gen 4 9mm's?
holy crap. :suicide2:
Uh...given the number of well known trainers and LE agencies that have continued to report problems with their gen 4's, particularly the 9 mm's, why does this surprise you? It is just further confirmation that the design is flawed and Glock is using end-users as Beta testers...
has this put anyone else off to the Gen 4 9mm's?
holy crap. :suicide2:
While I have no doubt that eventually glock will iron out all these problems, yea I would not want any gen 4 for the immediate future.
While I have no doubt that eventually glock will iron out all these problems, yea I would not want any gen 4 for the immediate future.
yeah i mean honestly i'm not an "early adopter" if glock just came out i'd probably be carrying a p7 and scoffing at the idea of a plastic gun. I like to give stuff a decade or so to settle out. If you're talking a new TV or stereo or something, go ahead and buy the latest and greatest, but if you're talking defensive firearms or cars that you rely on to get to work everyday, stick with traditional and proven.
overall though i'm pretty disappointed that glock has taken one of the most bombproof, simple, reliable designs and turned it into something even iffier than a modern sig. :suicide2:
luckily they still make the gen 3's for all of us cavemen. :D
I'd be unhappy with any DAK. A prominent USPSA shooter who was teaching a class to a department armed with 229 DAK's said the gun was built for liability and there is only so well/fast you can shoot one. A Glock will allow you to reach your potential whereas a DAK will not.
John_Wayne777
04-16-11, 19:01
I'd be unhappy with any DAK. A prominent USPSA shooter who was teaching a class to a department armed with 229 DAK's said the gun was built for liability and there is only so well/fast you can shoot one. A Glock will allow you to reach your potential whereas a DAK will not.
With all due respect to the USPSA shooter, the world of paper targets is a bit different than the world where every bullet has a lawyer attached to it. I shoot an H&K P30 with the LEM system (designed by the same individual who designed the DAK system for Sig, IIRC) and I can assure you that the weapon itself is absolutely no impediment to speed. I believe the fastest splits I've recorded on my P30 (while hitting a reasonable target) are .17...which is just as fast as what I could get on my M&P with a customized trigger. (Shorter reset, lighter weight)
Light triggers with a short travel are enormously forgiving when it comes to poor trigger control and they do allow you to simply slap the unholy hell out of the trigger and still get acceptable hits. That kind of trigger is not forgiving when it comes to handling the weapon safely under stress, reholstering the weapon into a concealed carry holster without discharging it, etc.
The Sig DAK's trigger weight is supposed to be around 6.5 pounds...up until recently Glocks came standard with 5.5 pound triggers. Hardly a world changing difference in pull weight, I think...
"overall though i'm pretty disappointed that glock has taken one of the most bombproof, simple, reliable designs and turned it into something even iffier than a modern sig."
Actually, I don't believe Glock has sunk consistently as low as Sig...
They changed the extractor fairly recently even on the 3rd gen guns and I've seen a couple of reports of those guns having some issues.
JW, how does one find out which guns have the "changed" extractor? I have a Gen3 Glock17 that runs like a top. It's probably seen 3-4k rounds (many of them steel cased) and I recently had a stovepipe during a class. The AI (Mike from EAG Tactical) told me to consider replacing my extractor because it looked like the gun's extraction was weak. I was running the gun with a KKM barrel, which has never been a problem, but that is the one variable in the gun other than the stock Glock.
I also have a Gen3 Glock 19 that I purchased in 2010. That gun has had some issues. It doesn't live up to Glock reliability and I frequently get stovepipes with it. It has more problems with steel case ammo than brass, but problems exist nonetheless. All of my steel stuff is done and I don't plan on buying more.
JW, how does one find out which guns have the "changed" extractor? I have a Gen3 Glock17 that runs like a top. It's probably seen 3-4k rounds (many of them steel cased) and I recently had a stovepipe during a class. The AI (Mike from EAG Tactical) told me to consider replacing my extractor because it looked like the gun's extraction was weak. I was running the gun with a KKM barrel, which has never been a problem, but that is the one variable in the gun other than the stock Glock.
I also have a Gen3 Glock 19 that I purchased in 2010. That gun has had some issues. It doesn't live up to Glock reliability and I frequently get stovepipes with it. It has more problems with steel case ammo than brass, but problems exist nonetheless. All of my steel stuff is done and I don't plan on buying more.
If you look at the extractor, the "new" style has a little dip in the middle of the top edge. Not the best pic, but its all I could find (borrowed from another site). Front one is the "old" style and back one is the "new" style.
http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u339/kcimb/100_2394.jpg
Thanks for that reply with the pic.
I ended up detail stripping my Glock 17 a few hours ago (for the first time since I purchased it in 2008) and cleared a bunch of carbon and other crud from the firing pin channel and extractor. It should be back to its old self.
The Glock 19, we'll have to see...
Actually, I don't believe Glock has sunk consistently as low as Sig...
that's true.. as far as i can tell it's mostly just an issue of recoil spring weight. Kind of a simple fix, which really makes it even more annoying that they couldn't just get it right out of the factory.
As far as overall quality though i think glocks are pretty top notch. any Gen 3 9mm i'd happily take out of the box and carry.
The 4th gen issues are more than just springs. Even some recent 3rd gen 9 mm's have exhibited issues, probably as a result of the inclusion of the newer "4th gen" parts. Until recently, I fully trusted 9 mm Glocks to reliably run right out of the box...sadly due to Glock's inexplicably stupid design changes, that time has passed....
The 4th gen issues are more than just springs. Even some recent 3rd gen 9 mm's have exhibited issues, probably as a result of the inclusion of the newer "4th gen" parts. Until recently, I fully trusted 9 mm Glocks to reliably run right out of the box...sadly due to Glock's inexplicably stupid design changes, that time has passed....
Doc, what are they including in the newer 3rd gens besides the extractor with the "dip"?
I just checked my Glock19 and it has the non-updated LCI extractor. One other thing I recall was that most (almost all) of the stoppages occurred with a WML (TLR1).
The Glock 17 runs with or without the WML.
Bulldog7972
04-19-11, 14:54
I'd be unhappy with any DAK. A prominent USPSA shooter who was teaching a class to a department armed with 229 DAK's said the gun was built for liability and there is only so well/fast you can shoot one. A Glock will allow you to reach your potential whereas a DAK will not.
Your not serious I hope.
I'll second that. I also work for the 2nd largest Police department in the nation and carry a 226DAK. For awhile I was sipping the Glock koolaid and was thinking about trading that 226 in for a G17 until I came to my senses and asked myself why. I have never had a malfunction with my Sig, it has served me well all these years especially when I have needed it, I have tons of mags for it along with all the duty gear. So why get rid of it and go to something else? Plus, once you take that transition course (if it ever becomes available) you cannot carry that Sig anymore. Will you become more proficient with a new Glock? Is there anthing that one can do with a Glock that cannot be done witha Sig? I doubt it. I would suggest that you would be better served by keeping the Sig and using the money you were going to spend on a new Glock for some training courses outside the department. I guarantee you that if you keep that Sig, get some REAL training outside the department you will be a far better shooter with that Sig than most of the guys are with their Glocks. Just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth.
BTW, are you in Area 1,2,3,4 or 5?
Working for the same P.D. as you are brother and I may be wrong but I was told that we are grandfathered in with our Sigs if we make the switch to a striker fired weapon, but I'm going to check General Orders now to make sure. Was planning on making the switch to a S&W myself this week.
And as too the Glock issue. I've known a few guys at work who have had some minor problems with their Gen 4 Glocks and that would be enough for me to step down to a gen 3 if I were interested in Glocks that is.
Working for the same P.D. as you are brother and I may be wrong but I was told that we are grandfathered in with our Sigs if we make the switch to a striker fired weapon, but I'm going to check General Orders now to make sure. Was planning on making the switch to a S&W myself this week.
And as too the Glock issue. I've known a few guys at work who have had some minor problems with their Gen 4 Glocks and that would be enough for me to step down to a gen 3 if I were interested in Glocks that is.
Do you happen to know what models of Gen 4 Glocks they were?
Both occasions they were Glock 17 with failures to eject. I did get the information second hand though so take it with a grain of salt.
Thanks. I was just wondering if it was a 9mm or 40SW, since most of the problems I have heard about are from the 9mms. Stay safe out there, especially with the warmer weather coming.
Bulldog7972
04-20-11, 14:48
Working for the same P.D. as you are brother and I may be wrong but I was told that we are grandfathered in with our Sigs if we make the switch to a striker fired weapon, but I'm going to check General Orders now to make sure. Was planning on making the switch to a S&W myself this week.
And as too the Glock issue. I've known a few guys at work who have had some minor problems with their Gen 4 Glocks and that would be enough for me to step down to a gen 3 if I were interested in Glocks that is.
I stand corrected, you are right. Your prescribed weapon would be the Glock and if you wish to carry the Sig as your prescribed alternate you may do so.
My knee jerk reaction is dump the Sig because of the poor quality of Sig parts, QC, and customer service these days. All the while keeping their prices the same even though they cheaped out on their end.
But several things give me pause. One is that you need to be able to depend on your pistol and your skill with that pistol more than some of us. You may have an earlier P229/DAK before all the Sig cost cutting and you may find it works better for you than any Glock.
As others have mentioned the Gen 4 Glocks are not without issue. I have several with fairly high round counts (4 to 5,000) without any real problems. I've been pretty vociferous about defending the Gen 4's because of this. But just last week I bought a Gen 3 17 because i don't want to even have to think about spring issues. So i would really cannot recommend the Gen 4 9mm's for critical work.
DocGKR, I will be picking up two 3rd Gen G19's on Monday. Your observation about 4th gen parts in some later 3rd Gen guns concerns me. I have a made a couple of trips to Glock for various services since I'm pretty close.
If the pistols turn out to be problematical due to having 4th gen parts,if in fact they do,will Glock replace them with gen 3 parts.I've already bought them.Is there a serial number range for the 3rd gens with 4th gen parts? Thanks.
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