View Full Version : Great vid - Vickers on AK accuracy
Member RetreatHell (https://www.m4carbine.net/member.php?u=16072) took this vid at a Vickers Tactical class he attended.
Only one AK guy in the class, performing a walk back drill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J13BFhQiUwo&feature
I think a lot of the AK's reputation for inaccuracy comes from the crappy iron sights. Toss a red dot on it, and it works just fine. The Russians made reasonably accurate stuff for years. When "Enemy at the Gates" hit theaters, a lot of people at my local club had a 'WWII day' at the range. LAV brought a '91/30 Mosin with a 4x PU optic on it, just like what was used in the film. It consistently shot 2MOA or so with crappy Chinese surplus ball. Documentation has turned up where the Germans in WWII consistently complained that their Mausers weren't as accurate as the Mosins.
I think the student's observation was right on the money: M4s are more reliable than people think, and AKs are more accurate than people think.
I think a lot of the AK's reputation for inaccuracy comes from the crappy iron sights. Toss a red dot on it, and it works just fine. The Russians made reasonably accurate stuff for years. When "Enemy at the Gates" hit theaters, a lot of people at my local club had a 'WWII day' at the range. LAV brought a '91/30 Mosin with a 4x PU optic on it, just like what was used in the film. It consistently shot 2MOA or so with crappy Chinese surplus ball. Documentation has turned up where the Germans in WWII consistently complained that their Mausers weren't as accurate as the Mosins.
I think the student's observation was right on the money: M4s are more reliable than people think, and AKs are more accurate than people think.
Lack of training, poor maintenence, and not having a tool to adjust the zero on the AK helps contribute to the realities of poor accuracy.
Zero your sights, maintain the bore, and train, and you won't have any issue hitting your target with a Kalashnikov.
The one time I shot an AK, I was impressed with its accuracy at 100 yards. It was easy to ring a 12X12 gong offhand.
My problem with AKs isn't exactly the accuracy, it's the the crappy sights and uncomfortable grip.
Doc Safari
04-14-11, 11:44
My problem with AKs isn't exactly the accuracy, it's the the crappy sights and uncomfortable grip.
I don't like the short length of pull. The gun gives you the sensation that the receiver cover is going to smack you in the face.
Longer stocks help some on fixed stock models, but I still flinch occasionally.
I'll keep my two sidefolders for the end of the world, but they are not fun to shoot.
Also, isn't it true that another reason why people here think the AK is shitty and inaccurate because they most often encounter CAI grade cheap stuff made from used parts kits?
Also, isn't it true that another reason why people here think the AK is shitty and inaccurate because they most often encounter CAI grade cheap stuff made from used parts kits?
It has a lot to do with the Kalashnikov being primarily "the enemy's weapon" since the Cold War and Vietnam. Again, lack of training has a lot to do with inaccuracy. When some indig runs the rear sight of his AKM all the way up to 1000 because, obviously, it makes the bullet hit harder, you get poor marksmanship.
Maintenance, or the lack there of, in the Middle East and other Third World areas also means that when US troops encounter most AK's, they're already beat to shit.
There are obviously exceptions. KevinB, among others, posted about finding crates of unissued Russian and Bulgarian AK's in Iraq, which were then put to good use.
There's more than a little chauvinism shown to the weapons and tactics of the enemy vs. the tools we use, and for good reason but people sometimes confuse the quality of the tools with the quality of the users.
Many people who don't have any first hand experience with a quality AK tend to repeat what they've been told over the years, or what they've read on the 'net. Hell, I guarantee you that you could find some Vietnam era vets, who believe that the VC could use 7.62 NATO that they stole from us out of their AK's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-noya_t-7R0
:cool:
Just_Plain_T.
04-14-11, 15:08
My problem with AKs isn't exactly the accuracy, it's the the crappy sights and uncomfortable grip.
Different grips have come out for the AK, just like the AR.
The sights are no more "crappy" than the ones on your handgun or on any number of iron sighted rifles. Though sights are a personal preference to some degree, there's always the options of optics.
It's perfectly fine to prefer one rifle over another, but I assure you, the AK design is not crappy at all.
Different grips have come out for the AK, just like the AR.
The sights are no more "crappy" than the ones on your handgun or on any number of iron sighted rifles. Though sights are a personal preference to some degree, there's always the options of optics.
It's perfectly fine to prefer one rifle over another, but I assure you, the AK design is not crappy at all.
Eh, maybe I should have said the sights are poorly positioned for my taste. I've not tried any after-market grips so I can't speak to the comfort of those.
Also, isn't it true that another reason why people here think the AK is shitty and inaccurate because they most often encounter CAI grade cheap stuff made from used parts kits?
I think its the poorly made ak's all around, not just CAI. The first AK I ever fired was a wasr10. I was comparing it to sks's before I purchased either one. I shot it and swore off ak's. Luckly a week or two later a friend convinced me to try again with his home built yugo. Im glad he did because it was a night and day difference. Whoever thinks ak's are all the same thing is crazy.
ForTehNguyen
04-14-11, 16:56
another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QABoEzyBm9w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACcrtrFgDE8
Moose-Knuckle
04-14-11, 18:36
My problem with AKs isn't exactly the accuracy, it's the the crappy sights and uncomfortable grip.
I replace all my AK rifle grips with either the Hogue or the US Palm/Tango Down grips. As for sights, there are a lot of options to bring them up to satisfy most anyone. I keep mine stock.
I don't like the short length of pull. The gun gives you the sensation that the receiver cover is going to smack you in the face.
Longer stocks help some on fixed stock models, but I still flinch occasionally.
I'll keep my two sidefolders for the end of the world, but they are not fun to shoot.
A lot of folks prefer the shorter Warsaw length stock because they can square up on the rifle better. Recent trends with "stubby" A2 stocks and telescoping stock on the AR. Even on shotguns Hogue and Speedfeed make "youth/ladies" LOP stocks that are prefered to acheive better handling of the long arm.
The one time I shot an AK, I was impressed with its accuracy at 100 yards. It was easy to ring a 12X12 gong offhand.
This is true. I have an SGL21 that I just got and it's *almost* easy to get hits on 8x8 steel at 100 yds with it. With slow, patient shots it's a 100% hit rate, standing off hand. With more rapid shots the hit rate drops off obviously. Still, this is with a completely stock Russian AK shooting Wolf 7.62x39.
Towards the bottom end of the spectrum I still have an old WASR-2 that shoots just as accurately. I think the 5.45 cartridge is generally more accurate for me, but this is a bottom-of-the-barrel gun and the practical accuracy is just fine.
The common theme here is they have the original barrels on them. For me the US made barrels on some of the AK's I've owned haven't been nearly as accurate.
My most accurate AK is my CAI Yugo with GM barrel. 10 rounds into 1.5" at 50 with my old eyes, and regular sights. But, My SA85 is no slouch, and it will last a lifetime or two.
I LIKE the AK grip and hand position better than an AR. Sights vary. My old eyes do better with my SA85 than my SAR-1. Amazing what a tiny bit of attention to detail does to sight surfaces.
Further, the peep close to the face on the AR is better and the trigger is better. this makes a difference.
I've grown more comfortable with the practical accuracy of 7.62 AK now. 5.56 would be nice.
I think the average guy at SHTF distances is well served by the AK.
Jay Cunningham
04-15-11, 07:44
I'm shocked by all of this.
:secret:
Great video. I was in that class, and more impressive to me, than the walkback drill was the guys shot pattern on the box drill. Tight groups and controlled pairs from a 7.62...made me feel like a puthyboy with my comp'd / midlength'd, A5'd 5.56. Just goes to reinforce that software is the most important factor; which is what this forum pushes and why I like it so much.
Vickers also said in that class that Hackathorn has said the more he understands about a fighting rifle, the more he favors the AK.
My problem with AKs isn't exactly the accuracy, it's the the crappy sights and uncomfortable grip.
I find the sights on an AK to be pretty fast and accurate.
Rmplstlskn
04-15-11, 19:08
Anyone can shoot an AK... Just not well...
http://www.wwyd.org/images/Rmpl/Monrovia-TRAINING.jpg
When some indig runs the rear sight of his AKM all the way up to 1000 because, obviously, it makes the bullet hit harder, you get poor marksmanship.
Seriously? :eek:
I'm glad I found this site, otherwise I would have just dismissed Arsenal AKs for being overpriced.
I don't want to hijack the thread, but I do have one side question (since poor training has already been brought up).
Why isn't this the first time that I've seen an African with a life jacket during a gun fight on dry land?
Seriously? :eek:
I'm glad I found this site, otherwise I would have just dismissed Arsenal AKs for being overpriced.
I don't want to hijack the thread, but I do have one side question (since poor training has already been brought up).
Why isn't this the first time that I've seen an African with a life jacket during a gun fight on dry land?
Mainly as a fetish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetishism) or charm.
It's a "life jacket", which, obviously, means that it will save your life and your enemies bullets won't be able to touch you.
I'm drop dead serious. Do some reading on African ritual and tribalism, things like amulets, special potions that the witch doctor made out of the hearts of your victims, etc....protect you from your enemies. (I have a fairly useless degree in anthropology.)
Things were bad back during the colonial wars of the 60's, 70's and Bush War and Border War in South Africa during the 80's.
Nothing much has changed.
Moose-Knuckle
04-15-11, 19:56
Seriously? :eek:
I'm glad I found this site, otherwise I would have just dismissed Arsenal AKs for being overpriced.
I don't want to hijack the thread, but I do have one side question (since poor training has already been brought up).
Why isn't this the first time that I've seen an African with a life jacket during a gun fight on dry land?
To add to what Master Templar stated. . .
Vets of GWOT can attest to this, native peoples spray and pray their AKs as they believe that Allah will guide their bullets to their enemies insuring their victory. No shit. Good friend and colleague of mine did some PMC work in Iraq. He had the hardest time with his IPS trainees as they insisted on removing the stocks on their AKs because it made them "too heavy". When he would attempt to instruct and explain to them that this diminished the accuracy of their rifles they would go into the whole Allah bullshit.
In Liberia in 1996 "soldiers" broke into a warehouse. In it they found crates marked "Life Vest". I guess someone could read English. The Liberians interpreted "Life Vest" as body armor. Nothing like giving your enemy a nice soft blaze orange square over your vitals to shoot at! :D
It's a "life jacket", which, obviously, means that it will save your life and your enemies bullets won't be able to touch you.
This was actually my educated guess on that, but I was hoping I was wrong. I guess I'm not.
Vets of GWOT can attest to this, native peoples spray and pray their AKs as they believe that Allah will guide their bullets to their enemies insuring their victory. No shit.
This one, I am actually aware of. A Sgt. I know told me this a while back. He also added that "unfortunately, at this point, we've killed all the dumb ones." :p
While I love the discussion of cultures going on here I guess it is a bit off topic. Ah well.
This thread has been dangerous. I have AR, FAL, and M-14 pattern rifles, but no AK's. I just never warmed up to them, but now I'm considering an Arsenal.
I have stayed away from the platform mainly because the ergonics are different than the AR. I would venture to say that 90% of the rifle shooting I do is with my AR and I've been afraid another platform would hurt me. When I started heavily shooting my FAL I found that when I went back to my AR that I would try and rock the magazines in. I quickly got over it but it was enough to scare me into not devoting any significant time to another system (I did the same thing with my pistols years ago - now I only shoot HKs).
So to those out there with both platforms, how do you handle the transition?
While I love the discussion of cultures going on here I guess it is a bit off topic. Ah well.
This thread has been dangerous. I have AR, FAL, and M-14 pattern rifles, but no AK's. I just never warmed up to them, but now I'm considering an Arsenal.
I have stayed away from the platform mainly because the ergonics are different than the AR. I would venture to say that 90% of the rifle shooting I do is with my AR and I've been afraid another platform would hurt me. When I started heavily shooting my FAL I found that when I went back to my AR that I would try and rock the magazines in. I quickly got over it but it was enough to scare me into not devoting any significant time to another system (I did the same thing with my pistols years ago - now I only shoot HKs).
So to those out there with both platforms, how do you handle the transition?
It's not something I have to be conscious of. I've been shooting AR's, AK's, HK's, FAL's, M14's since the mid 80's. Get enough trigger time on them and you should be able to just fall into the groove with what you have in your hand.
The Arsenal Inc. SGL series is the best thing going, currently.
But... cultures and their firearms ARE interesting. We (not just West, but US) are somewhat accuracy freaks. Difference between AK and AR, as things progressed.
Note different approaches to SMLE, Mauser, 1903. While the Mosin Nagant proved accurate, it was ruggedness which is what marked it. Of course it was a hybrid design and while the bolt was not simple, maintenance of it was. (Of course the Fins perfected its accuracy - amazing trigger on the 28/30 for a stock rifle). Never shot a Valmet, but they look VERY nice.
Over all, I now have trouble putting the M4 above the AK. Radically different approaches and both suitable in their own respects. And the video proves what "conventional wisdom" buys you.
Also, I didn't take Templar's comments in any way trying to condescend. We need to be grateful for our own history here in the US. 500 years of it.
Over all, I now have trouble putting the M4 above the AK. Radically different approaches and both suitable in their own respects. And the video proves what "conventional wisdom" buys you
What the video shows is that the weakest link in the chain determines it's strength. Many gun owners see AK's in the hands of the untrained masses and judge the performance of the platform as such. Conversely, guns like the M4 are seen in the hands of people who do what they do well. The truth is most of those people could also perform well with an AK.
This has lead many to believe that owning an AR immediately brings you into the super secret operator club, while in reality some guu in Africa wearing a life vest could probably kick your ass.
(the "your" comments are directed at no one in particular)
I was always a huge Fan of the AK .At the age of just 18 I went to the Gun store and Laid down 279.99 plus tax on a Poly- tech AKS .:eek:Brand new in the box,after that One i got the Polytech Legend underfolder in 88.for around 600.00.
Cases of ammo then was 65.00 so i shot the hell out of these weapons me and my stepdad went out every weekend.
we tested and shot great with them .after selling those two .I later picked up everything from Norinco to the Bulgarian Aks that came in under the Clinton AWB.
I have owned 14 total .I only have one now a Russian Saiga, I converted with a side folder into a AK-103 .
I love this Weapon as it will always be one of my favorites .and even with the Sub- par Sight, i can hit very well with it .it just took time to learn the weapon and how to shoot it. I always said when i got a Russian AK i wasn't buying anymore.:(
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h86/PFC-JB/DSCN0025.jpg
and while the[Mosin] bolt was not simple,
The Mosin bolt has a grand total of 7 parts. (And the extractor is usually always on the bolt head, so one can it even say it strips down to 6 parts).
http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/139/l_0fa4377c00114c228bbc08c12a63ae89.jpg
Is that not considered "simple?" The Mauser 98 bolt has 9 parts, and the No.4Mk1 bolt has 8.
******
warpig M-4, that is one kick ass AK. Really f*ing cool. Is that one of those Russian modern 7.62 polymer mags? And where did you get it? (I've never seen those for sale here, only the 7.62 orange bakelite ones which are pricey).
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