View Full Version : What is the best way to measure accuracy/marksmanship...?
Hello,
Is there a way that proves accuracy over another or when do you go above and beyond and prove excellent accuracy?
I noticed "groups" are commonly used to show accuracy, mostly 3 shots. Is a 3 shot group the standard? If so what does a 5 shot group qualify as? What about 10?
Or would a 10 shot drill prove better accuracy, see like for example of what i mean: http://www.impactdatabooks.com/v/vspfiles/templates/idbtemplate/images/pdfs/targetdownloads/Drills/D-RBD10D.pdf
What about position? Bench or prone? Does one qualify you as a better marksman over the other?
What about using accessories other than a scope? Bipods, shooting rests and/or bags?
I am asking because i see a lot of groups but rarely (i said rare not never) do you get all the details, does this mean they are irrelevant? As long as you acheive the tightest group?
But wouldn't using so many extra hardware only prove the rifle's accuracy, not the skill of the marksman?
Is there a position, rifle setup and target type that would measure the marksman and the rifle best?
Is there a standard to go by and if not should there be one?
Belmont31R
04-18-11, 00:16
Generally when I shoot for groups I use a front rest and rear bag unless stated otherwise. I just got a real rear late last year and was shooting off a pack before that.
Position does make a difference. If soemone posts a group I ASSume its off a front rest and rear bag unless otherwise noted.
3 shot groups are worthless. 5 shot groups are ok but they need to at least be compared to several other groups. If someone posts one 5 shot group who cares? I want to see several of on the same target. Near any dolt with two cells to rub together can once shoot a 3 or 5 shot group that looks good but that group, unless they post others, is probably the best group they ever shot.
For my own self evaluation I shoot a gun with a few different types of ammo, 10 shot groups, and average things out. I don't cherry pick the best group I ever shot with the gun, and say Im a 3/4th MOA shooter when my best groups are only 3/4th. My average with 10 shot groups and a few different types of ammo is closer to 1.5MOA. Not too bad considering other people are usually cherry picking 5 shot groups and maybe even hand loading to obtain the best groups. I use all factory ammunition which can be a hindrance.
Great point Belmont about assuming the position the groups were shot using....I pride myself heavily on staying true to prone supported with bipod even though it's incredible challenging esp. driving .308 gas guns. It's the real man's way of doing business as far as I am concerned (just like several different 10 rd groups to truly exhibit what a said item's accuracy capability is), and you will not see any of my work posted that doesn't specifically spell out the firing positioning even though most will never pick up on this nor care to. Way back when I got into the precision realm I quite frankly couldn't afford anything close to Molon's operation which is truly more scientific and stresses the said ammo, or rifle, barrel, etc. abilities rather than the shooter's ability or AR builder's ability. So I just kinda started stressing my own ability by combining shooter ability w. the builder's ability to wring out every drop of precision on a tailor fit precision AR.
eta...I have started to try and make a habit of doing accuracy reports on my favorite commercial loads currently avail, thus far I have done the new BH's Mk262 Mod 1 5.56......and more recently one on Hornady Vmax 55gr.. It's important to note that I am a straight redneck tester in some sense as I don't own wind flag's, chrono, any kinda of front rest or even a non homemade rear bag, I make clear note in my own accting at least of general conditions but rarely do I remember to bring the portable weather gatherer as I just don't shoot that often at the distances that really should merit knowing exact environmental conditions. All that said, I think I do this in the most honest way I could and I think at least all my evaluations are thoroughly conducted and documented....just by an everyday joe like myself vs. a true scientist-like Molon. One day I would like my reports to be seen as the real world or actual shooter accuracy evaluations versions of the stone cold factual reports of Molon.
Groups from the Vmax report...
http://i53.tinypic.com/zsvc01.jpg
Then link if you want to see the actual stuff I documented...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=961091#post961091
To test or prove the rifles accuracy the gun would have to use a rest that had the least amount of movement to keep point of aim the same.
3 shot groups are usually used to measure the gun cold bore first shot repeatability more towards hunting rifles giving smaller groups for advertised accuracy from manufacturers. I agree multiple 5 shot groups
give a better idea for tactical use guns, since the barrel will get hotter when used that way.
As far as marksmanship, I think a good marksman should be able to shoot a accurate rifle effectively from any position. Just my opinion.:big_boss:
Hello,
Is there a way that proves accuracy over another or when do you go above and beyond and prove excellent accuracy?
I hate to use the word "mission" as I'm not in the military, nor am I a LEO. But it's a good word to set what parameters will define the use and purpose of the equipment. That's to say, before we know what over and beyond accuracy is, we must know what accuracy is needed to meet the mission. 3 inch groups at 25 yards may not be all that impressive until we learn they were shot from a pistol design for deep concealment.
I noticed "groups" are commonly used to show accuracy, mostly 3 shots. Is a 3 shot group the standard? If so what does a 5 shot group qualify as? What about 10?
Or would a 10 shot drill prove better accuracy, see like for example of what i mean: http://www.impactdatabooks.com/v/vspfiles/templates/idbtemplate/images/pdfs/targetdownloads/Drills/D-RBD10D.pdf
The number of shots required are also determined by mission needs. 3 shot groups of less than 1 MOA are expected from a quality lightweight bolt action rifle for hunting big game. 5 shot 1 MOA groups from the same rifle are better and 10 shot 1 MOA would have me doing the Snoopy dance. Another important factor to these groups is whether or not the barrel was allowed to cool between shots.
In service rifle matches, strings of 10 shots are fired for score, so good accuracy with 10 or even 20 shot groups are the expectation.
For some applications, it's the shot placement of the first round, from a cold barrel regardless of conditions that's needed. When a Police Sniper takes a shot, that bullet must strike it's target the first time- no alibis, no "do-overs"
What about position? Bench or prone? Does one qualify you as a better marksman over the other?
What about using accessories other than a scope? Bipods, shooting rests and/or bags?
A marksman is one who can hit with a rifle each time they shoot, using the best position for the mission at hand.
While it takes skill and experience to set up a rifle on a rest and/or sandbags, this is to remove as much shooter induced error as possible to test accuracy and consistency.
I am asking because i see a lot of groups but rarely (i said rare not never) do you get all the details, does this mean they are irrelevant? As long as you acheive the tightest group?
The details are relevant. Little is gained to shoot 1 MOA groups from a benchrest and compare them to 6 MOA groups fired from offhand.
Tightest groups possible only count in competitions where one is shooting only for the tightest group possible. It doesn't matter if a carbine is capable of placing 100 shots through the same hole at 1000 yards if the shooter cannot hit their target in a fight.
But wouldn't using so many extra hardware only prove the rifle's accuracy, not the skill of the marksman?
Without skill and experience, hardware is useless. I watched an experienced service rifle shooter sling up in an M14 in the prone, sight on his target, close his eyes and fire 10 shots at a reduced target set at 100 yards. All shots were kept inside 4 inches. It's also useless if it doesn't meet mission needs.
Is there a position, rifle setup and target type that would measure the marksman and the rifle best?
Is there a standard to go by and if not should there be one?
Each type of competition measures the ability of shooters in different ways. Bullseye competition tests mental discipline, 3 gun tests the ability to shoot & scoot, benchrest tests the ability to examine & scrutinize each and every little detail, long range shooting tests the ability to read conditions and so on.
The harshest judge of anyone's shooting ability is a gunfight and those winners have my highest respect
Consistent hits at variable distance and elevation.
You have to remember accuracy is relation to the target, while what most people define as accuracy is consistency or precision.
The number of rounds fired has more to do with assurance of validity than anything else.
Thanks for the reply's a lot of good points have been made.
Trident's post mentioned shooting prone and why. Info such as this is what I was looking for.
Finished building my first precision type AR and am now looking for ways to test both myself and the rifle.
It's no fun if you only build it...
Time to go out and see how bad i suck. :blink:
As far as marksmanship, I think a good marksman should be able to shoot a accurate rifle effectively from any position. Just my opinion.:big_boss:
I agree, a kick ss 5 shot group from the bench only proves that under best conditions you are a good shot, a series of 5 shot groups from different positions would be a better way to measure your accuracy. just my .02
First define just what the hell you are trying to capture.
Precision is the capability of the rifle (including sighting system, whether that is secured in a machine-rest with no sights, with iron sights, or with a telescopic sight) and ammunition to repetitively produce consistent groups -- whether 1, 3, 5, 10, 20-25, or 100 shots at whatever specified distance. This is why the minute-of angle is a convenient measure.
Benchrest and F-class competition are very much a reflection of precision -- trying to shoot tiny groups.
Accuracy is the ability to put that group near a specific, defined aiming point (whether that's an X-ring, bullseye or scoring ring or silhouette kill zone) from a pre-determined common, agreed position or conditions (i.e., prone, sitting, standing, kneeling, or F-class bipod from 7-10-15-25-50-100-200-300-500-600-800-900-1,000 yards/Meters). Accuracy is understandable and repeatable or re-produceable by others with the same weapon, sight, ammo, and positions.
Bullseye and combat competition are a function of precision, accuracy, and human training and application measured against time.
This may be of interest
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=82297
In a nutshell, if trying to determine the precision capabilities of your set up(ie. testing different ammo, seeing if that muzzle brake changed precision, seeing if rifle A is more precise than rifle B, ect), then I recommend:
1. Download the free version of On Target software, or buy the newer one. http://www.ontargetshooting.com/download1.html
2. When at the range, shoot at least 10 shot groups. Bring a camera, pen and ruler. The ruler should be in the photo.
3. Use ATC (either in MOA or inches) to determine which groups are the most precise.
4. Find and read Molon's posts.
The best way I have found to test all aspects of what you are looking for is to do the following.
targets to use:
4 MOA with 1 MOA scoring rings 10, 9, 8, 7
Place them at each yard line you can shoot in equal distance.
Example:
You only have a 100yd range = 1 target every 20yds
You have a 300yd range = 1 target every 100yds
Things to do when shooting this practice drill. Have two shot call sheets with you at all times. Call the shot and record it on a shot caller sheet next to you. Use the other shot call sheet to record the bullet impact once down range and compare the two once back on the firing line. Check your DOPE per distance and see if you dialed on the correct adjustment. Get the best position you can, perform great trigger control and record if you pulled the round on the shot caller sheet next to you BEFORE taking the next shot.
Test:
Step 1: Fire 1 round per target and adjust your elevation knob for the correct setting to engage the next distance.
Step 2: Go down range and record on paper the MOA offset the bullet printed on the target. Using the other shot call sheet to record the bullet impact once down range and compare the two once back on the firing line.
Step 3: DO NOT MAKE ANY ADJUSTMENTS to your DOPE at until this drill is finished!!!!!!!!
example: do not record a click +/- for the next shot at the distance you just engaged. Let the rounds print as they will. If you record a +/- click or two you will not get a true DOPE reading in the 3 shot group.
Step 4 repeat steps 1, 2 & 3 for a total of three rounds.
Now you have three rounds in each target. The time it took you to walk the range and record each shot on paper, that let the rifle cool off between stages and let you clear your mind. Also gives you time to compare the two shot call sheets.
For the good groups prone:
If you are 1 MOA or better group per-distance your rifle AND YOU are performing as needed. If the group is not in the 10 ring, you have bad DOPE and need to adjust the knobs to the center of the 3 rnd shot group to have the correct point of aim / point of impact.
For the good group’s sitting sling supported:
Same as above except in the 2 MOA ring and you need to learn the hold, not dial the offset if any once the prone shot group is confirmed following this process.
For the good group’s kneeling sling supported:
Same as sitting except the 3 MOA ring
For the good group’s offhand sling supported:
Same as sitting and kneeling except the 4 MOA ring
When you use a barricade of any design, find the nearest position, prone, sitting, kneeling, offhand you are at and use the same standard of accuracy.
For the bad groups any position
The shot call log will tell you, what you did wrong. Now you know what to fix and work at if you are HONEST with yourself.
Lastly, when you can clean this COF within the standards of 1 MOA Prone, 2 MOA Sitting, 3 MOA kneeling & 4 MOA standing offhand drop the target size to .75 MOA and repeat.
Hope this helps.
John
First thing you should do is decide on what ammo/s you will be shooting to find out how precise the gun can shoot it, eliminating as many variables as possible, meaning from the bench, scoped. Then you can work on positions and drills and KNOW when your accuracy is improving. If you do this first you'll find your weaknesses much faster.
Thanks for the reply's a lot of good points have been made.
Trident's post mentioned shooting prone and why. Info such as this is what I was looking for.
Finished building my first precision type AR and am now looking for ways to test both myself and the rifle.
It's no fun if you only build it...
Time to go out and see how bad i suck. :blink:
Follow this link, some helpful info here - http://www.jarheadtop.com/Free_Chapters_Blue.htm
Will give you some excellent basics before you have rhe chance to get any bad marksmanship habits. Does not matter if it's iron sights or optics, in regards to this info.
Good luck & don't worry about the suck, everyone has been there or they are not telling you straight.
billybob19606
09-15-11, 22:38
I'm new to the M4. Owned one for less than a month now (80rounds fired so far). I was shooting 6-7" groups with irons and an eotech (non magnified) from 205yards. Front was rested, but not the back.
I'm sure this isn't anything fantastic, but is it respectable at least?
Thank you very much
I'm new to the M4. Owned one for less than a month now (80rounds fired so far). I was shooting 6-7" groups with irons and an eotech (non magnified) from 205yards. Front was rested, but not the back.
I'm sure this isn't anything fantastic, but is it respectable at least?
Thank you very much
Consistant stock weld, sight alignment, & hold, i.e. a 6 0'clock hold works best for iron sights for me. Read Jim Owens free chpts. in the link I provided above. Take your time & pay attention to each and every shot like it could be your last one ever, if you screw up.
The SPR/AM rifles (18" bbls) contract rifles we build shoot under 2" @ 200 or they don't leave here. M4 RIS flavor..good luck
I'm new to the M4. Owned one for less than a month now (80rounds fired so far). I was shooting 6-7" groups with irons and an eotech (non magnified) from 205yards. Front was rested, but not the back.
I'm sure this isn't anything fantastic, but is it respectable at least?
Thank you very much
Just another note,
One of the funnest things is going to the range, & exp. with different ammo to find out what your rifle likes. Shoot what you are using & see if you improve. Try a box of Black Hills & see how it does, 1-9 twist bbl use 69 grainers, 1-7,1-8 twist bbl use 77 grainers. Hornady Match & Federal Gold M match makes some decent stuff also.
Guys that have been around a long time develope loads for a specific rifle that kick butt,,,then there is the reloading bug that can bite you..lol...best of luck..just have fun & practice.
I tend to look at it in caveman terms.
Accuracy= Did I just hit the target I was shooting at with results?
Marksmanship= Do I understand the various conditions that contribute to my ability to hit or cause me to miss a target? Am I able to shoot under a variety of conditions and positions and remain effective?
I tend to look at it in caveman terms.
Accuracy= Did I just hit the target I was shooting at with results?
Marksmanship= Do I understand the various conditions that contribute to my ability to hit or cause me to miss a target? Am I able to shoot under a variety of conditions and positions and remain effective?
For fun you should try a long range tactical match, am thinking you would enjoy!!. No dis-respect intended. A lot of guys that were on MU's are there having fun. I have had a few guys there make me feel like a caveman at times...:) - Great test for a good marksman and rifle combo & yes you can use a AR if you chuck the right size rocks.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-18-11, 12:53
I like the idea of accuracy and precision. Groups are fine, but what we really want to know is what is the size of a target you can hit with what kind of confidence.
I made this myself (In Power point, that is why it might be a bit off since I just did it by eye). A half inch circle with +1/4in concentric circles and some black bands for aiming. The idea I'm thinking of is you shoot at the ten targets and mark down what is the smallest circle the shot hole clips. Mark it on the chart at the top. You can then look at the distribution of the chart and say you have a 9/10 chance of hitting a certian size target, or a 50/50 (5/5) chance of hitting a larger size.
I wanted to get away from just pure groups to what is really important, the ability to hit a target on demand. You could measure it from prone and other positions for a better estimate of what you'd actually hit. Prone, sitting and supported kneeling I think are three highly common and usable positions for accurate fire.
Just and idea.
http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a426/MileHighPhotos/LMT%20MWS%20targets/AccuracyPrecisionTarget0001.jpg
You are shooting a all different size steel plates at different ranges, they go ding when you hit them. Kinda like ringing Pavlov's bell... lol
A cool one is a 8" or 12" plate at 1K yds. Boom... then a few seconds later, a ka-ding, if you did your job! This will totally get under your skin and is way fun. The typical course is set up over anything but flat land around here, & you are shooting at various yardage, dif size targets & angles. Max course length of shot varies with the facility...You get to make all the reads you have to to build a hit...
Fun Meter is on full in the red with this.!!:D
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