View Full Version : A couple of questions about iron sights,...
I noticed that everyone has installed their foldable iron sights all alike,... the front sight way up front as far as ye can go and the rear sight as far back as it can go. Now, i first would like to say that I agree with having the front sight as far forward as possible. But what about the rear?
When I hold my rifle correctly with cheek pressed against the stock and I looking forward with both eyes open,... my target is blurry along with the rear sight, leaving the front sight in focus. Im asuming this is the way its suppose to be because this is what I was taught when shooting my Glock.
With this setup,... the rear ring is very blurry and the opening is very big. If I switch to the smaller sight opening, the opening is obviously much smaller. But theres a lot of black blurriness. Kind of hard to see the opening.
Now, I tried installing the rear iron sight on the portion of my handguard thats connects to the upper reciever. Bascially as far back on the hand guard as possible. I found that I like that a lot better. The front sight in focus and the rear sight was nearly in focus too.
I do realize that if I move the rear sights forward I lose some of my sighting radius?!?! I think thats the term for it. But seriously,... i just dont see it as being a huge problem installing the rear sight there. The reason im saying this is because im pretty sure I would do a fine job aiming merely by sighting down the barrel. So what are the pitfalls of having a rear foldable where I mentioned?
Now heres another question,... why do we even need a rear sight?!?!? When you hold your rifle correctly to aim and shoot,... your pretty much setup each and everytime the same. Cheek on stock in same position sighting down the top of the gun. ITs not EXACT but its close enough where you really only need a front sight to hit your targets. I would assume that it would be quicker to aim too because theres not rear sight to worry about. Has aynone tried this? Or do this?
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8189&stc=1&d=1303137878
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8190&stc=1&d=1303137878
Sorry, double post, browser acting up...
When you go to an optic you'll want the rear sight back where it should be. And the rear aperture should be out of focus.
Sciuirse Morrigna
04-18-11, 10:43
You can only focus both eyes on one thing at a time. You may be able to get both your target and one of your sights focused well.
The way aperture sights work is by the automatic reaction to want to center the in focus front sight in the rear sight. It's almost unconscious the way it happens. It's ok for the rear sight to not be in focus, you'll center the front in it anyway.
What you say about not needing a rear sight is true -- but only for CQB ranges (50m max). You can use the old "quick kill" method of looking over the sights, or by using the ears on the front sight to "bracket" your target and fire. Good enough for fast torso hits at close range. Essentially you are trying to mimic the function of a red dot sight with your front sight.
However, red dots and other holographic sights are focused at optical infinity, so you can have both them and the target in focus, and the good ones are parallax-free, unlike your irons, so they are usable to longer ranges.
Is this based on range use or mucking around the house?
Sciuirse makes a good post and a good set of points.
If you are talking about CQB distances, then sure what you describe will work. However, at any significant distance you will want to have the longest sight radius as possible in order to maximize accuracy. Throughout my time in the military I was always taught to have the (edited) front sight in focus and the target out of focus. This is how I shoot irons still today and works well (37/40 hits on an SDM qual course 100-500yds with irons. Damn wind picked up on my 2nd 500 string and pushed 3 shots 1-2 inches right).
As was mentioned previously, go test this out at the range. Shoot some CQB distance shots offhand with the short sight radius, then shoot some longer shots. You can always shoot 'over your sights' for CQB stuff in a pinch.
I can't think of any advantage to running your rear sight that far forward.
Obviously less than optimal for Long range shots....
And I'd guess it'd be horrible for close range shots because you'd actually have to take the time to get a sight alignment. Whereas if you keep the rear sight back where it belongs, your rear sight is in alignment whenever you pop your gun up to your cheekweld.
Is this just screwing around at home or actually shooting your carbine?
I can't imagine you being able to hit anything at distance without a rear sight.
Try shooting like that past 100 yards with small aperture, let us know how that works ;)
Yes, the front should be in focus while the rear sight and target should be blurry. There is a reason they call the large aperture in the rear sight a "Ghost Ring." With a consistent cheek weld, head placement...you look through the rear sight which becomes ghost like in your view and you focus on the front sight. Your eye will optically center the front sight post in the rear aperture. This is a very fast/accurate sighting system. For greater accuracy at distance you use the smaller aperture, but the same principles apply.
As you pointed out, the greater the sight radius the more accurate a person can be with the firearm. The rifle's accuracy is unchanged, merely your ability to accurately sight the firearm is increased.
Now, I tried installing the rear iron sight on the portion of my handguard thats connects to the upper reciever. Bascially as far back on the hand guard as possible. I found that I like that a lot better. The front sight in focus and the rear sight was nearly in focus too.
You may like it better in your living room, but go to the range and try it both ways. The human eye cannot focus on objects in two different focal plains at the same time. The eye has to change focus from one object to the other. This happens very quickly and you may believe you are focusing on both objects at once, but you are not.
I do realize that if I move the rear sights forward I lose some of my sighting radius?!?! I think thats the term for it. But seriously,... i just dont see it as being a huge problem installing the rear sight there. The reason im saying this is because im pretty sure I would do a fine job aiming merely by sighting down the barrel. So what are the pitfalls of having a rear foldable where I mentioned?
Now heres another question,... why do we even need a rear sight?!?!? When you hold your rifle correctly to aim and shoot,... your pretty much setup each and everytime the same. Cheek on stock in same position sighting down the top of the gun. ITs not EXACT but its close enough where you really only need a front sight to hit your targets. I would assume that it would be quicker to aim too because theres not rear sight to worry about. Has aynone tried this? Or do this?
The sections I bolded tell me you have not tried this, you are merely discussing some theory you have in your mind. Please go try it. As others have pointed out you may get away with looking over your sights at CQB, but not at distance.
Yes others have tried it. The first muzzle loading rifles did not have sights and people sighted down the barrel. They quickly learned that two reference points for sighting worked much better than sighting down the barrel or a single reference point at the end of the barrel. Why do you think they put rifle sights on shotguns for slug use? Then later they found that Ghost ring sights on shotguns were actually faster.
Send some rounds downrange, or better yet take a class, and then report back to us.
I think you'll quickly find the utility of having a rear sight, and having the sights positioned in the traditional locations.
You are making accurate AR to AK accurate. lol
You don't look at your aperture sight, you look through it. Just like when your driving, you look through your windscreen.
You can shoot without a rear sight, it's what shotgunners do. But they have the advantage of a shot column to make up for aiming mistakes. The rear sight refines the aim.
The aperture sight works best when mounted as close to the eye as practical. For one thing, it increases the field of view because it increases the angle at which you can see. It also increases the amount of light transmitted to the eye. Mounting the aperture decreases the FOV and reduces the light transmission.
A smaller aperture close to the eye does reduce field of view as well as reducing light transmission, but it increases depth of focus, making what the eye sees sharper. By reducing the angle, aiming is finer. The trade off is the sight picture is darkened and it's slower than a larger aperture. Also, "older" eyes find a smaller aperture harder to use
Mounting the sight further from the eye will require a larger aperture and much of the advantage of using an aperture in the first place is lost
Magic_Salad0892
04-18-11, 18:15
This reminds me of an AK setup, which is cool in it's own way, but I can't think of why it would be good...
If you didn't have a rear sight you would be incapable of making precise shots past.. I don't know... like 30m?
Magic_Salad0892
04-18-11, 18:17
You don't look at your aperture sight, you look through it. Just like when your driving, you look through your windscreen.
You can shoot without a rear sight, it's what shotgunners do. But they have the advantage of a shot column to make up for aiming mistakes. The rear sight refines the aim.
The aperture sight works best when mounted as close to the eye as practical. For one thing, it increases the field of view because it increases the angle at which you can see. It also increases the amount of light transmitted to the eye. Mounting the aperture decreases the FOV and reduces the light transmission.
A smaller aperture close to the eye does reduce field of view as well as reducing light transmission, but it increases depth of focus, making what the eye sees sharper. By reducing the angle, aiming is finer. The trade off is the sight picture is darkened and it's slower than a larger aperture. Also, "older" eyes find a smaller aperture harder to use
Mounting the sight further from the eye will require a larger aperture and much of the advantage of using an aperture in the first place is lost
I like this post, and suddenly a lot of things make more sense...
With this setup,... the rear ring is very blurry and the opening is very big. If I switch to the smaller sight opening, the opening is obviously much smaller. But theres a lot of black blurriness. Kind of hard to see the opening.
Do you have your nose on the charging handle? You need to "turkey neck" and get up close to your weapon. Don't be afraid of it. Blurriness is normal. The large opening is for close quarters, where reaction time is more important than accuracy, so getting your front post inside the large aperture is faster than the small aperture.
Now, I tried installing the rear iron sight on the portion of my handguard thats connects to the upper reciever. Bascially as far back on the hand guard as possible. I found that I like that a lot better. The front sight in focus and the rear sight was nearly in focus too.
Look at this picture, correct shooting for any peep sight is to have the rear sight blurry, front sight in focus and the target blurry. The rear sight is to keep your line of sight in check. There's such a small margin of error for accurate shooting that only using a front post just isn't enough. If your rear sight is in focus then you will not be able to correctly focus on the front sight, and a sharp front sight is critical for accurate shooting.
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8343/st6517m16riflecorrectsi.png
I do realize that if I move the rear sights forward I lose some of my sight radius?!?! But seriously,... i just dont see it as being a huge problem installing the rear sight there. So what are the pitfalls of having a rear foldable where I mentioned?
Compare AK accuracy to AR accuracy. Sure there are other factors involved, but one big difference is the shorter sight radius on an AK. The longer sight radius the better!
The reason im saying this is because im pretty sure I would do a fine job aiming merely by sighting down the barrel.
How accurate are shotguns with just a front bead? There's a reason they use "shot," when the pattern opens up if increases your chances of hitting your target. Sure you can find a target ridiculously fast with a shotgun, but you have quite a few little "bullets" coming out to make sure you hit your target.
Now heres another question,... why do we even need a rear sight?!?!? When you hold your rifle correctly to aim and shoot,... your pretty much setup each and everytime the same. Cheek on stock in same position sighting down the top of the gun. ITs not EXACT but its close enough where you really only need a front sight to hit your targets. I would assume that it would be quicker to aim too because theres not rear sight to worry about. Has aynone tried this? Or do this?
Sure your cheek weld is consistent, but the minute details are the difference between hitting the broad side of a barn and hitting your target. Having a rear reference point, the rear peep, keeps everything in line.
Thanks for all the info. I just got my carbine so I havent shot it yet. Eventually when I do get to shoot it I am going to try to make some long shots without a rear sight to see how I do. Im thinking I would do fine up to 50yrds. I dont know about past that but I will try just for the hell of it.
A lot of you guys hit the nail right on the head when it comes to what im thinking. Having no rear sight and using my cheekweld as a mean of lining my sight up with the guns front sight. Using the front sight kind of like a red dot.
I know that when shooting,... of the 3 things envolved, that being the target, front sight, and rear sight,... the only thing in focus is the front sight.
I also would like to try and do some 50yrd shots by sighting downt he barrel too. I want to see how I would do with that. If I was in close combat I probabyl wouldnt even use my front sight. I would probably sight right down the barrel. Because for me right now that would be the fastest. Because I comes from years and years of playing paintball where thats all you have to aim.
Please get some training with a good carbine instructor.
Rifles are different than paintball.
Are you using your same cheek weld when you shoot by looking down the barrel? I don't see how the sights wouldn't get in your way if you use the same cheek weld.
Have you ever shot a rifle for accuracy before? If not i suggest you learn and practice the fundamentals of sight alignment and trigger control. Become proficient with shooting your irons and focus on making hits. If you or someone in your family has a .22 with irons that would make good cheap practice.
Do all of this before you try toying around with sighting down the barrel for close combat. Its not a paintball marker or a shotgun, the rear sight is on a rifle for a reason.
SWATcop556
04-19-11, 12:48
Paintball also uses a lot of "spray and pray."
Do you think this is a good idea for a rifle with live ammo?
I gotta ask why you would plan on not using your sights when in close quarters distance. Hitting your target isn't a guarantee, and when there are possible other repercussions such as friendlies or small target exposure you'd better know damn well where you're going to hit. Sighting down the barrel, which isn't even really possible on an AR because of the off-set, is indefensible when you're talking about using your carbine for social purposes. Good training instills the fundamentals, like using your sights without having to think much about it. Even sight off-set at CQB distance can be ingrained in your shooting.
Besides that, given a snap-shooting scenario, I can't imagine how long it would take to try to line up your sights with that set-up and then make a solid hit.
jackblack73
04-19-11, 13:05
Paintballs are so slow you can see them. So it's like using tracer rounds where you can walk them onto target. You're also not going to hit targets at 100 yards and beyond with a paintball gun.
If you're in a true CQB situation you may not even notice the rear sight. It may be more like find the front sight and pull the trigger. But that's no reason not to have one. Because when you need to hit from longer distance, or need to take a more precise shot (like a hostage type shot) you'll be wanting that sight. Heck just get a fold down type BUIS and leave it down.
Pathfinder Ops
04-19-11, 14:35
Thanks for all the info. I just got my carbine so I havent shot it yet. Eventually when I do get to shoot it I am going to try to make some long shots without a rear sight to see how I do. Im thinking I would do fine up to 50yrds. I dont know about past that but I will try just for the hell of it.
A lot of you guys hit the nail right on the head when it comes to what im thinking. Having no rear sight and using my cheekweld as a mean of lining my sight up with the guns front sight. Using the front sight kind of like a red dot.
I know that when shooting,... of the 3 things envolved, that being the target, front sight, and rear sight,... the only thing in focus is the front sight.
I also would like to try and do some 50yrd shots by sighting downt he barrel too. I want to see how I would do with that. If I was in close combat I probabyl wouldnt even use my front sight. I would probably sight right down the barrel. Because for me right now that would be the fastest. Because I comes from years and years of playing paintball where thats all you have to aim.
HOLY CRAP!!!!
Stop "thinking" (AKA: guessing) and get some training.
I wanna puke every time someone says "paintball"
Paintball also uses a lot of "spray and pray."
Do you think this is a good idea for a rifle with live ammo?
That's what I've noticed when I've seen engaging in this activity. (not everyone) But it seems like you see the guys just whaling on the trigger since there's a hopper full of balls on the gun.
Are you using your same cheek weld when you shoot by looking down the barrel? I don't see how the sights wouldn't get in your way if you use the same cheek weld.
Yes I do. But I hold the rifle at an angle so that I can sight down the handguard between the top and side rails. I can just see the tip of the barrel doing this. It would be the same for the guys that mount their T1's using a 45 bracket so then can also use a scope. They have to tilt the rifle to use the T1.
Thanks for all the info. I just got my carbine so I havent shot it yet. Eventually when I do get to shoot it I am going to try to make some long shots without a rear sight to see how I do. Im thinking I would do fine up to 50yrds. I dont know about past that but I will try just for the hell of it.
A lot of you guys hit the nail right on the head when it comes to what im thinking. Having no rear sight and using my cheekweld as a mean of lining my sight up with the guns front sight. Using the front sight kind of like a red dot.
I know that when shooting,... of the 3 things envolved, that being the target, front sight, and rear sight,... the only thing in focus is the front sight.
I also would like to try and do some 50yrd shots by sighting downt he barrel too. I want to see how I would do with that. If I was in close combat I probabyl wouldnt even use my front sight. I would probably sight right down the barrel. Because for me right now that would be the fastest. Because I comes from years and years of playing paintball where thats all you have to aim.
You cannot use the fornt sight like a red dot. The reason being is that the red dot is parallax free and the front sight is not. That means the dot will not change in relation to the point of impact regardless of where your eye is. You'd have to use the front sight like a shotgun bead.
Because of parallax, the front sight will shift around as you move your eye. Try this experiment- Place your rifle (or rig up a dowel with a nail in the end to simulate a rifle barrel & front sight) in a rest and look down the barrel at a mark across the room. Now move your head (without moving the rifle) and watch how much the front sight move off the mark. Then do the same with a red dot. You will see a huge difference
Im just going to stop posting now. I see where this is going. Now im sorry I brought up paintball. Because paintball is for kids and real guns are for manly men. Right? Bye.
Im just going to stop posting now. I see where this is going. Now im sorry I brought up paintball. Because paintball is for kids and real guns are for manly men. Right? Bye.
Didn't say that, but paintball is not a firearm.
Please get some actual experience and use out of one before debating. The collective experience of this forum is pretty damn impressive. If you choose to ignore it, brother, that's your right, but it'd be a shame.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=54936
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70019
It seems like we are having a rash of new people show up who want to ignore advice and then talk shit to moderators when they try and guide them. So just know this. You will get hammered and sent packing if it happens anymore. First and last warning.
If you don't like what you heard, go to a paintball forum and let them help you out.
Im just going to stop posting now. I see where this is going. Now im sorry I brought up paintball. Because paintball is for kids and real guns are for manly men. Right? Bye.
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