View Full Version : PWS MK114 or MK116
soapboxpreacherman
04-18-11, 16:17
Anyone have some trigger time on this rifle? I am scouring the forums to find out if people like this platform or not. The little I have heard is excellent! I am on the fence between, this an LWRC M6A2 or a SCAR. Let me know. Thanks
Mr. Goodtimes
04-18-11, 17:03
If you want a piston gun, get a SCAR. If you want an AR thats ready to rock from the factory with great features, get a DD rifle.
Find ManBearPig!
04-18-11, 17:58
What are you doing that makes you think you will need a piston gun? A DI will be just as reliable in 99% of conditions if lubed properly. I'm sure you can save weight, cost, and headache by simply getting a DI. There are no real advantages to a piston that outweigh the cost of the heavier, more front-heavy, more complex rifle you get from having one. DI gets a bad wrap from companies like Bushmaster that put out a sub-standard product, however if Bushmaster put together a piston gun, it would be just as un-reliable simply due to the fact Bushy has no clue when it comes to putting an actual reliable rifle together. Give a company like Daniel Defense or BCM a chance, as they actually know what they are doing when it comes to AR's, and will are almost be guaranteed to fit your needs.
soapboxpreacherman
04-18-11, 21:40
What are you doing that makes you think you will need a piston gun? A DI will be just as reliable in 99% of conditions if lubed properly. I'm sure you can save weight, cost, and headache by simply getting a DI. There are no real advantages to a piston that outweigh the cost of the heavier, more front-heavy, more complex rifle you get from having one. DI gets a bad wrap from companies like Bushmaster that put out a sub-standard product, however if Bushmaster put together a piston gun, it would be just as un-reliable simply due to the fact Bushy has no clue when it comes to putting an actual reliable rifle together. Give a company like Daniel Defense or BCM a chance, as they actually know what they are doing when it comes to AR's, and will are almost be guaranteed to fit your needs.
With all do respect I am looking for a piston. I am not a hater of DI. In fact I absolutely love the KAC SR15 (Silky soft, my favorite!!), DD, BCM (Best Value), and Noveske. They are the cream of the crop of the DI. But a DI even lube approaching the 2k round count needs to be cleaned. The Gas Block starts getting gunked up and will fail to cycle the bolt. My BCM will come but for now I want another piston. I have a SR-556C and an ACR but really want one really stellar piston whether AR or something else. I am looking to sell the Ruger and the ACR get one Piston and then a BCM or KAC...then an AK
With all do respect I am looking for a piston. I am not a hater of DI. In fact I absolutely love the KAC SR15 (Silky soft, my favorite!!), DD, BCM (Best Value), and Noveske. They are the cream of the crop of the DI. But a DI even lube approaching the 2k round count needs to be cleaned. The Gas Block starts getting gunked up and will fail to cycle the bolt. My BCM will come but for now I want another piston. I have a SR-556C and an ACR but really want one really stellar piston whether AR or something else. I am looking to sell the Ruger and the ACR get one Piston and then a BCM or KAC...then an AK
I have about a 4500 rd count on my BCM 12.5" SBR (alot of that with a suppressor and with Wolf ammo) since I last cleaned it and it still runs like a dream, without any problems. I don't know what kind of rifle you have that NEEDS a cleaning after 2k rounds, but I'd get rid of it if I were you and get something that's quality that you can run for thousands of rounds without cleaning and with proper lube. I've never heard of a gas block getting so "gunked up" that the rifle doesn't run.
With all do respect I am looking for a piston. I am not a hater of DI. In fact I absolutely love the KAC SR15 (Silky soft, my favorite!!), DD, BCM (Best Value), and Noveske. They are the cream of the crop of the DI. But a DI even lube approaching the 2k round count needs to be cleaned. The Gas Block starts getting gunked up and will fail to cycle the bolt. My BCM will come but for now I want another piston. I have a SR-556C and an ACR but really want one really stellar piston whether AR or something else. I am looking to sell the Ruger and the ACR get one Piston and then a BCM or KAC...then an AK
I too have never heard of a gasblock getting so gunked up, it stops cycling. :blink:
That's a whole-nother topic though and it doesnt address your querry so back on point... I agree with Mr. Goodtimes. If you want a piston, get the SCAR or a known-good platform that was designed for the piston system. I have nothing against the scar or any other piston platform. I just think the system itself does not belongs on an AR. It just wasnt designed for it and applying it to the platform causes more problems than it "solves".
soapboxpreacherman
04-19-11, 00:15
Dont have extensive experience with many DI and it has been sometime since I attended a carbine class much I dont remember and need to attend another. I vaguely remember several bushmaster...once again this was so time ago. Many of them went down throughout the course. The instructor was clear about keeping the gun lubed during the course. Some still stopped and sat out to clean and help improve their rifles so they could continue with the course. The cleaning did seem to help and they made it through the course but it did leave me wondering why if it was lubed enough? I was shoulder a buddies Olympia Arms...ok commence laughter. I was as green as they come and only shoot an AR once prior. I wish I could remember more about that course but the significant amount of stoppage occurred at that course surprised me. I dont believe the instructor is even around anymore but I am looking to get a new rifle and take another course for now I believe I would do better. I have a little more cash in my pocket and want to treat myself to something nice. As I stated I love the SR15 and really like the BCM! Of the DI it is very nice but my post is about the Mk114. Hearing the 4500k and no cleaning is quite nice something I didnt think was typical. But BCM is an excellent rifle and seems to be a great value and of some of the highest quality parts around...you guys are making me have second thoughts. I am not overlly impressed with my Ruger and my ACR is a boat anchor. I have not shot the ACR for I just dont like the weight at all and balance. Being unshot I can hopefully get what I paid for it. So that is why I am not shooting it. The MK114 is something different. It is light, balanced, reasonable on the wallet, and seems quite reliable but it is new and that scares me. It is a soft shooter and uses a long stroke piston so the weight is better positioned not to mention its an AK style piston...AK are very reliable but not as accurate. I do like the ergos on an AR just because I am use to it. The MK114 is aroung 1450 and it is setup pretty nice for that price. The BCM is around 1200 for the recce 16. Weight is similar, balance, parts are gonna be super easy to replace so it certainly has all that going. Just my 2 cents. But I am not completely eliminating a DI, the MK114 just caught my eye and I havent heard one bad thing yet.
Ya, unfortunately, the samples you had at this particularly class were bushies and an oly. If youre really set on a piston, again, get a platform designed for a piston and not a piston AR.
The BCM is around 1200 for the recce 16. Weight is similar, balance, parts are gonna be super easy to replace so it certainly has all that going.
Absolutely right on this one, although, I doubt anything would need to replacement anytime soon, if at all.
Im sure you'll be perfectly happy with a DI. Check out this article on Filthy14. http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:xZ3xlupXoywJ:www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/filthy14_oct10.pdf+filthy14&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgPJmBeA-j08YgC6njAmxAHeLyc5Ce9KE_BF00bVKScLJVXLHX5xfv0sL53EGTqYOS_CL3Qjf8o4AIUaWhbeGExQm0d2dVmjBdBJT1sGOBCGIyhkrqb4pyT-5iRGMIH9dQm41kd&sig=AHIEtbSBgKSTzJ-shq18fiDzTkWJdFSojg
I own an AR in 5.45x39. I use corrosive surplus ammo in it. I am a notorious lazy slob when it comes to weapon maintenance. That is why I so love the AK and the Glock. When I decided to go 5.45x39 with an AR I did EXTENSIVE research on the matter. I debated the possibility of doing a piston conversion to help ease cleaning. After MUCH research about piston systems in an AR I decided that I would be much better off sticking with DI and spending the piston money on getting the gun done in NP3, which I did and it works great and dramatically simplifies cleaning.
I have one friend who has an LWRC M6A2 and another who has a PWS diablo in 7.62x39. They both run great. I also know a police officer who briefly had a a POF gun (don't remember the designation). The reason why the police officer had the POF only briefly is because it never worked correctly and after 3 trips back to POF for non existent or crappy customer service which failed to resolve the issue, he gave up.
First off, I would not get a piston AR. IF I did get a piston AR it would be either a new (so that a previous owner did mess with it and for warranty reasons) complete upper or preferably a complete rifle from either LWRC or PWS, ONLY, PERIOD.
LWRC addressrd carrier tilt in part by modifying the carrier. PWS took a very different and unique approach different than all other AR piston systems. PWS uses a long stroke AK type piston and the piston itself serves as a guide rod to help reduce carrier tilt issues. In addition they also use a buffer tube that helps as well.
What somebody needs to do is a make an all brand new piston upper that has a rectangular cross section and just so happens to fit on an AR lower (and preferably allows for a folding stock or at least does not send a carrier into the stock tube).
TED
justin_247
04-19-11, 07:05
Assuming that you *have* to clean an AR every 2000 rounds regardless of needing to lube it, what on earth are you doing that you can't take ten minutes of your time to go do it? Basically, you'd have to clean your rifle maybe 10 times across the barrel's lifespan - two hours total for the life of the weapon. The horror!
Seriously, what justifies getting a system the AR was not designed for? Soldiers carry an 1/8 of that much ammo on them when they go on patrol and I seriously doubt you're going to be in a harsher situation than that.
I am on the fence between, this an LWRC M6A2 or a SCAR. Let me know. Thanks
Whatever you do... DON'T GIVE THE SCUM AT LWRC any business.
soapboxpreacherman
04-19-11, 17:52
Whatever you do... DON'T GIVE THE SCUM AT LWRC any business.
Damn Markm what happened? I have heard mostly good about LWRC. But back to my original post...no one knows about the MK114?
Mr. Goodtimes
04-19-11, 20:58
Damn Markm what happened? I have heard mostly good about LWRC. But back to my original post...no one knows about the MK114?
I don't think that you will find too much information on piston guns here in general, much less the Mk114. Generally piston guns cost too much and create more problems than they solve. While the Mk114 may very well have solved most of the problems associated with piston guns, it's still an answer in search of a question.
In my opinion after having put thousands of rounds through DI AR's, a piston AR is a complete waste of money. I've put a few thousand rounds through my BCM midlength upper with the only cleaning being wiping down the BCG/upper receiver and adding lube. It has yet to have a malfunction of any kind.
I think you would be much better off buying a good quality DI gun. You'll not only save money but parts will be easier to find. If you want a modern piston driven combat rifle, get a SCAR. I'm personally going to keep buying DI AR's until Remington releases a civilian version of the ACR that is exactly like the military one and from what I understand, that's somewhere between a long time from now and never.
Please excuse markm - he hates lwrc for good reason I am sure. Now they are LWRCI, so that is where you should be aiming.
I have 2 and cannot be happier with them. 10.5" and 16" Lots of cheap crappy ammo and carbine courses to boot. Full Auto and suppressed.
A piston AR is simply another option in what is one of the largest markets for alterations and accessories. Glad this is not the dreaded piston vs DI debate, as I own and love a host of DI rifles of all sorts and do believe in proper lube and regular cleaning to keep rifles in optimal condition no matter what.
SCAR is a great rifle too. I will opt for a 17 in 7.62 over a 16 in 5.56 though, if you can find the mags. The trigger on a SCAR-16 is just too crappy for me and although the aftermarket is ever expanding, IMHO its not there yet, but past LMT, the AR-10 world has been shaky.
If you are a true collector, get one of each ;)
Steeltoe73
04-19-11, 23:35
Anyone have some trigger time on this rifle? I am scouring the forums to find out if people like this platform or not. The little I have heard is excellent! I am on the fence between, this an LWRC M6A2 or a SCAR. Let me know. Thanks
Hey SBP, I bought a PWS Mk114 a while back to try something different as a training carbine and to perhaps bring it out on patrol with me after I wring it out a bit. My department currently issues Colts to the officers that want to carry a long gun besides the ol' 870.
I was a bit wary seeing the trend of piston op systems being put in a chassis built for DI. I think you may have already made up your mind though.
That being said, I've been nothing but pleased with my decision to buy the PWS. The upper is designed from the ground up to be a different animal. It is not like any of the piston systems I've had the opportunity to handle. It is a long stoke piston system. It is very simple. No gas adjustment. Also the top rail is the same height as the standard flat-top upper so the that opens up your choices regarding sighting /optics mounts.
It's well balanced and has been very reliable (no failures, but only about a 1000rds through it). Accurate as any of the colts in the armory and LMT's that our SWAT guys have.
As far as the no cleaning thing goes...I don't shoot without cleaning afterward (good opportunity to inspect the weapon). However I don't have to spend hardly anytime cleaning the PWS.
The triggers is well...meh, adequate. A RRA two-stage would be an inexpensive improvement over what's on the Mk114. These are just my observations so-far as I've not had ton of time on this weapon.
Having said that I would always suggest getting to know the AR15/M16 platform insideout buy purchasing a quality DI gun. Especially if it's going to be a weapon you're going to stake your life on. The maintenance support is great. All the piston systems are proprietary and unless you are an armorer on that system you could be without a weapon for weeks or longer should something go wrong.
Whatever you happen to get, shoot the crap out of it and have fun.
soapboxpreacherman
04-20-11, 12:28
Thanbks SteelToe, finally great to hear from someone who has one. How is the muzzle climb compared to your departments colts. Most of the departments around here are Rock River. Which to be honest is quite an accurate rifle and the trigger is pretty nice! But I am wondering about muzzle rise. My SR-556C climbs quite a bit more then I like and since the flash hider is pinned looks like I am stuck. The Recoil is just ok as well on the 556C. I keep bringing it up for it is what I have the most trigger time on. It is a solid rifle built pretty well and feels nice. It is nose heavy but dressed to the gills!! But back to my questions, muzzle rise, recoil (I know PWS puts one of there brakes on there which are generally very good but loud, so I am assuming second shoot acquisition is pretty damn good. I am going to take a cabine course and then try my hand at 3-gun. So I am looking for something that is decent for second shots, fast, balanced, light...etc. Let me know. Thanks
Came across a pretty extensive review on Snipershide:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2202139&gonew=1#UNREAD
soapboxpreacherman
04-22-11, 19:34
Thanks Kchen, That is pretty much the only review I have read on the MK114. It is pretty good and makes me wonder. Seems this long stroke piston design is done right. The weights and balance seem excellent!
Steeltoe73
04-24-11, 00:43
Thanbks SteelToe, finally great to hear from someone who has one. How is the muzzle climb compared to your departments colts. Most of the departments around here are Rock River. Which to be honest is quite an accurate rifle and the trigger is pretty nice! But I am wondering about muzzle rise. My SR-556C climbs quite a bit more then I like and since the flash hider is pinned looks like I am stuck. The Recoil is just ok as well on the 556C. I keep bringing it up for it is what I have the most trigger time on. It is a solid rifle built pretty well and feels nice. It is nose heavy but dressed to the gills!! But back to my questions, muzzle rise, recoil (I know PWS puts one of there brakes on there which are generally very good but loud, so I am assuming second shoot acquisition is pretty damn good. I am going to take a cabine course and then try my hand at 3-gun. So I am looking for something that is decent for second shots, fast, balanced, light...etc. Let me know. Thanks
OK sorry for the late reply. So I went out Friday morning and put another 100rds down range and zeroed an eotech. once I got dialed I did some close quarters doubles and triples. I wasn't any faster with the Mk114 than any of the dept Colts. However the triples were very tight. I suppose I could push my speed up a little to see how well the SM556 works compared to a regular birdcage. Overall it "seemed" more controllable but with semi auto only, it's not that hard to control any AR/m4/m16. If I get the chance to get out when SWAT is at our range I'll try a couple bursts F/A. That's probably where the comp is going to really show you what it can do.
I didn't have time to hangout much longer and find out (didn't want my teammates shagging calls in my beat). Good luck with whatever you finally decide to get.
soapboxpreacherman
04-24-11, 12:18
Thanks again steel. I dont have a lot of ARs to compare to but My SR-556C has more muzzle rise then I like. Recoil I could care less about...they are all the same but the rise is a difference maker. The Flash Hider is pinned so I would have get the barrel cut and have one pinned. I am very hesitant in doing this. Cost wise, BC $150, plus the removal $40, pin $30, another $120 to thread...this is their quote to me...I dont know if this is right or not!! So I am looking at $340 bucks to add a Battlecomp 1.5 to my SR-556C. Second shoot recovery is fair at best on the 556C. More rise then the other ARs I have shot. Some might have to do with the rounds we are shooting (1st 300-500 were sheriff department reloads so I am not 100% certain on what they were. So what brings me to my departure of the SR-556C is this mere cost to make this rifle better at doubles and triple. The weight in the front is another. Although the 556C is lighter then the 556 it is still not as balanced...much of the weight is in the nose. It is a very nice rifle. But it has carrier tilt (I just sent it in to see if ruger will replace the carrier with the newer more rounded end version). Overall I like the 556C but more because of how it was outfitted then how it actually performs. Carrier Tilt, balance, permanent rail, and the pinned A2 flash hider are leaving me desiring something more suitable. I am considering a build...LMT lower, BCM upper (W/DD quad)...etc. But when I look at a built it still gets in the same neighborhood cost wise as this MK114 which seems to be a piston AR that is dont right. The other route is a SCAR or non-ar. I have an ACR but it is way heavy! And not balanced. Ergos are really nice! Sorry for the long post but now I think you guys might understand my feeling and why I am looking at what I am. Not knocking the SR-556C at all it just wont do what I want without sinking in some cash I will not get out and cant fully achieve my goals of a light, balanced, controllable AR, that is 100% reliable with even the crappiest ammo out.
I remember when LWRCI brought a few of their guns to the range I used to work at in NoVA. Always thought their design was good.
Saw a few demos with their guns that reinforced that opinion. (Semi, auto, and suppressed auto)
Had a co-worker there that had a POF, and it was literally a POS. He had to send it back several times to get it running right.
If you are looking at a piston platform, the LWRCI is a sweet set-up.. My first SBR is running a 10.5 LWRCI upper on it with about 1500 trouble free rounds.
Great question. Sorry that most want to just run down piston guns, or start a DI vs Piston debate. I'll give you my two cents as I own a PWS MK116, an FN SCAR 16, a POF 416, and new HK MR556.
The PWS is a light shooting, accurate carbine that "feels" most like a DI gun of all my piston carbines. It is the only piston recommended by Paul Howe, which says a lot. Great gun, comp is a dream and muzzle rise is noticeably less (though just barely) over the others. Highly recommended.
FN Scar. Great gun, very light due to polymer lower receiver. Shoots great, very modular. Ironically it has the PWS comp on it. Big drawback is that with Eotec's, it will tear your hand up when you charge the handle because it's in the left side forward of the chamber. So, your hand will come into contact with the edge ofnthe Eotec. I have to run an ACOG on it to avoid this. So, fair warning. Ergonomics are different.
POF: I don't get the POF haters. I too have heard a couple of bad anecdotes. I think they tamped up production at time of election and had quality issues. Mine is from 2006 and it is a dream to shoot. It's a sweet gun and I have never had any issues. It doesn't like PMAGS, as they are very tight in mag well. But, that is only critique. It's also heavy. But, great gun.
HK MR556. It's a Cadillac, man. Incredible gun. Heavy and can't seat PMAGS. But, if you have a lot of other magazines, it is a total dream.
All in all, I would say the PWS is the best gun for the money. It's the lightest, has zero issues, and can be had for less than $1,600.
I also LOVE DI guns and have a large collection of Colt's and S&W's. But, though you deserved a specific answer to your question. good luck and enjoy whatever you get.
soapboxpreacherman
04-25-11, 00:09
Thanks Guitar! Sound like of the Pistons the PWS is an excellent choice! The more I read the more I am on the fence about piston. For the DI seems like in many ways is better for it has maturity and a wealth of parts and aftermarket support. Not to say piston is bad but from an AR stand point the DI is so established and has came a long way. Yes there is a lot fo garbage out there but there are also a lot of great stuff too! I am also considering a DI build. I am researching LMT Lower w/SOPMOD stock or RRA Lower with CAR stock. Both with 2 stage triggers. As for the upper, I believe the BCM recce upper with the DD rail might be a nice pick. I have an Eotech 512 and would do some Troy flip ups and a BattleComp 1.0 or 1.5 depending on the length. Seems like a very good start but would be at about the same cost as the PWS...without the Troys...I do not like the Magpul MBUS sight...have them on my M&P15-22 MOE and ACR...just dont like them! I do love the scar sights!! Just some more of my thinking. Thanks again
The PWS is a light shooting, accurate carbine that "feels" most like a DI gun of all my piston carbines. It is the only piston recommended by Paul Howe, which says a lot. Great gun, comp is a dream and muzzle rise is noticeably less (though just barely) over the others. Highly recommended.
Do you have a link to where he recommends this?
Do you have a link to where he recommends this?
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/recomended_equip.htm After the picture and description of the Larue 16"
"RIFLE-Traditional:
PRIMARY WEAPON SYSTEMS: GAS PISTON RIFLE
I am pleased to have found a gas piston rifle that performs. Primary Weapon Systems gas piston rifle is accurate, reliable and well built.
2
It comes with a 1/8 twist 16” barrel barrel and mid-length hand guard. I came with aDaniel Defense rear sight that is solid. The light is a Nova-tac on a Larue Mount. This gun is a shooter."
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/news.htm If you scroll down past the pictures of the Glocks.
"Primary Weapons Systems CSAT Rifle
Primary Weapon Systems and CSAT are working together to put out a Gas Piston rifle. Based on the AK gas system, I have shot several of their rifles and have run without a hitch. "
I have been doing some long term testing on both the PWS MK-114 and the PWS MK-110.
I have done a lengthy eval thread over on Sniper's Hide. I have not put it up here, because most people don't seem interested in Piston Driven Carbines here.
I have over 8k rounds through the PWS MK-114 in six months, and I use the heck out of it during training events. Every time we have a team come up, I let them run it, and collect their feedback. To call the PWS Carbine reliable is a huge understatement. The things run like a Swiss Watch.
My current favorite is the MK-110 with the 10.5" barrel. It is super light, super accurate and a joy to run. I run SIMUNITIONs through it in the shoot house as well as 55, 69 and 77 grain.
My MK-114 is sporting a TA31F ACOG and a Geissele SSA trigger. The only other mod I have done to it, other than paint it, is add a MAGPUL ACS on it.
So far, the only malfunction I have had with the MK-114 was during a rifle class I was helping with in Gainesville, FL. I was demonstrating some transition drills, and the TROY QD sling mount kept hitting on my magazines in my plate carrier, and ejecting the rifle. On round count 1245 (give or take)... the extractor claw broke... and caused a fail to eject. This can happen to any rifle. I replaced the extractor and the gun has run flawlessly since.
I like how PWS has done their gas piston. It has no pieces to fail. The thing runs clean, and non stop.
Accuracy is well above average. Even after 8k rounds through the pipe, I can lay a 5 shot group down at 100 rounds (off a sand bag rest) that you can cover with a quarter (using 69 Grain Federal TRU).
So far, I am sold on the carbines. All of the people that come through and train with us, love the thing after shooting it.
Here's a few pics.
This is the broken extractor claw that let go about round 1245 ish... I replaced it, and it has run over 7k rounds now with zero issues. I told PWS about this, and they ran down the batch of extractors they used. Customer Service with PWS is second to none.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/mdmccall/BrokenExtractor2.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/mdmccall/MISC/ARPictures011.jpg
The rifle comes boxed well... includes a PMAG and some SCAR rail covers. Also has MOE stock, MOE handgrip, and MAGPUL flip up sights.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/mdmccall/MISC/newrifleandranger005.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/mdmccall/MISC/newrifleandranger009.jpg
The Bolt Carrier Group is made by them, is stamped MP, and has the operating rod in place of the gas key. The Gunfighter charging handle is captured by the operating rod. Takes a bit to figure out how to put the BCG in and out... but, it's no biggie.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/mdmccall/MISC/newrifleandranger019.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/mdmccall/MISC/newrifleandranger020.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/mdmccall/MISC/newrifleandranger024.jpg
The BCG is machined nicely, and after 8k plus rounds through the rifle, there is ZERO carrier tilt issues with the PWS system.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/mdmccall/MISC/newrifleandranger025.jpg
All in all, the rifle shoots very much like a rifle length DI carbine. There is zero carrier slap, normally associated with a short stroke piston.
I think PWS knocked it out of the park.
Some of the issues I have heard people complain about is the lack of a true "free float" tube. Well, as a fighting carbine, the gas block up front is built like an battle tank. The only time I can see this being an issue in regards to a free float tube, is on a longer barrel, such as the MK-116 and using bipods. If you are prone, and leaning into the bipods, I can foresee the possibility of inducing some barrel torque and opening up your groups. However, this rifle is plenty accurate for it's intended role.
This was a quick three shot group from 100 yards on a 3" Shoot-n-see using an ACOG. The cardboard backer was moving with the wind... but, it's still a good group, even after over 8k rounds through the pipe.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/mdmccall/PWS%20MK114/PWSMK114at100yrdsM855.jpg
The three rounds easily fit inside a quarter sized circle, the only thing you can see is the splash from the shoot-n-see.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/mdmccall/PWS%20MK114/1PWSMK114at100yrdsM855.jpg
As for the rails, they are proprietary... and mount via some snap rings near the receiver, and with two torx bolts up front. If you ever damage a rail, you do not have to replace the entire tube. You can just replace the individual rails.
Of note... Left handed shooters have reported to me that they get zero gas pulse in their face, when shooting this rifle. I have run it suppressed, semi auto, as well as full auto. The gas vents mid barrel, and not into the ejection port.
To date, the ONLY thing I do not like about the PWS as shipped, are the MAGPUL flip up sights, and the MILSPEC trigger. I am a Geissele trigger fan, and I run the SSA in all of my carbines. So, if you are ordering one of these, just call up Todd or Stacy and you can sub in whatever trigger you prefer.
I'm also not a fan of the MOE handgrip. I have very large hands, and I find the MOE a bit small for me. So, I tend to trade them out for MIAD grips.
Last but not least, the "enhanced buffer tube". It's strong, like ox... but... there is no castle nut. This is good, in regards to you don't have to stake it, or worry about it coming loose, but you can't run a normal sling swivel.
There are two QD mounts, one on each side, that take standard QD releases to mount your sling with. As stated earlier, I have had my rifle come off of my Tactical Tether during a transition a few times. This caused me some concern. I have spoken in length about this with Todd Tuttle of PWS, and I believe I am the firs to complain about it.
Now that I am aware of the issue, I am a bit more cautious doing transitions, and have not had the rifle eject on me lately.
I make sure I secure it when rappelling, or fast roping, but other than that, I love the thing.
The MK-110 is amazing. My Noveske sits in my safe now.
Just to add:
I will be getting my hands on a PWS MK212 very soon. This rifle will have the Geissele SD-E trigger, and a US Optics SN3 (1.8-10) with MILDOT reticle and .1 MIL turrets... I am anxious to see how it performs in regards to accuracy.
If it runs anything like the MK1 series, it will be a keeper.
Do you have a link to where he recommends this?
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/news.htm
He says he has three... and has not had a malfunction to date.
Larry Vickers
05-15-11, 17:10
I have seen and shot a few PWS guns and just recently received a MK214 for my TV show - I have yet to see a functioning problem with one. From what I have seen they build a quality product at a very reasonable price - and they use a unique operating mechanism that nobody can say is a knockoff of something else on the market.
Couple things of note; the rail system is proprietary and non free float. In addition if you are anti muzzle compensator (like me) they offer a flash suppressor alternative.
I see no reason to give PWS anything other than a thumbs up.
Cheers
LAV
Mr. Vickers is totally correct in saying... that the PWS "brake" is not for everyone. I have a few of their new TRIAD flash suppressors on a few of our rifles, and they work very well.
The FSC556 which is shipped on the MK114 series rifle, is a brake first, and really blows the gas around. It holds the front of the rifle flat, beyond belief. The TRIAD is the new Flash Suppressor. It does a fine job of holding the muzzle down as well... but nothing like the brake does.
Shooting the MK114 on full tilt is almost uncanny how flat it shoots.
When you are shooting in close proximity, in a shoot house, in a hall way, with team members near you, that is the one thing you have to consider. The Triad is no worse than a standard birdcage, as far as noise and gas displacement... but does a much better job with muzzle rise.
I was able to run my MK114 / MK110 up beside a LWRC M6 the other day, that was running a Battle Comp brake.
The FSC556 was slightly easier to control on auto, with three to five round bursts... both were crazy loud, and both threw gas back to the point that I would not want someone shooting over my shoulder with them. The Triad was slightly less easy to control than the brakes, but was not near as loud, and did not throw gas around.
The rails, as mentioned were a source of concern to me when I first got the rifle. The only time I can see the non float tube coming to play, is if you are shooting prone, from some good bipods, and you were leaning into them to get tight behind the rifle. I can see that you could be able to produce some barrel torque on the longer barrels.
I will test this with my MK212 that's enroute. I'll put my Atlas V8 pods on it, and see if I can see any tangible results.
All in all, I have never been a piston fan. 25 years in the Army, my M16 / M4 never let me down. But, after running these guns, and how clean they run, I am a huge fan.
I played with one of their DC-12 uppers before the rename to MK112. The upper came with the little short KAC-compatible muzzle brake that I found to be very effective for full-auto fire. The upper was reliable with WOLF, Silver Bear, etc and was decently accurate.
The gun ran like a top on semi-auto but, for some reason, always seemed to choke after a couple mags on F/A. I sent the upper back to the factory twice to have it looked at but never could get the issue resolved. My thought was that once the upper got very hot, the gas piston warped slightly, causing the gas piston to drag and stick in the gas tube. After cooling down, the upper seemed to return to proper function. Obviously my experience was unique.
With the above aside, I did like the simplicity of the PWS system. There's no gas setting to adjust for weak or full-powered ammo, etc and the weight and balance are good. One of these days I'll probably get another one to mess with.
Anyone have some trigger time on this rifle? I am scouring the forums to find out if people like this platform or not. The little I have heard is excellent! I am on the fence between, this an LWRC M6A2 or a SCAR. Let me know. Thanks
If you want a piston driven AR, the PWS system is the cat's meow. I would echo the other poster's description of how soft shooting the design is and that it is unlike no other piston system on the market. You have try it to really comprehend how nice it feels. Don't let the non-free float rail scare you, the gun is very accurate.
I have run and personally know several others who have run thousands of rounds through the MK114 in the wind, rain and fine dust of the Northern Nevada desert without any reliability issues. I also know several people who ditched their POFs (very problematic) and LMT piston guns for MK114s. It is also very nice to run 1000+ rounds through one and only needing to wipe the BCG with some EWL to clean it. Their customer service is also top notch and will take good care of you. Definitely go with the MK114 over the MK116 as it is a bit heavier on the front end than a DI rig.
PWS MK114 here. I only have about 600 rounds through mine, but I've had no problems whatsoever. Of all the features the MK1 has, these 3 are what sealed the deal for me (in this order):
1) One-of-a-kind piston design
2) Handling - balance, weight
3) Isonite (Nitride) treated Bergara barrel
The price is more than reasonable and PWS' customer service is outstanding.
Bad Medicine
08-27-11, 18:52
I own the MK116 and the MK214 and I have to say I feel like I am shooting a .22 and holding a DI. I have 2500 rounds through my 116 and I haven't had a single malfunction. Unfortunately I am stuck in Chicago and its difficult to go to the range. So I have only put 200 rounds the the 214 but so far so good. I say either PWS or SCAR, never shot the LWRCI but I have heard good and bad things about it.
I had some trigger time on a PWS upper a couple of months ago. It was much smoother than the LWRC M6A2 I shot a week before. I believe that's due to the long stroke piston. PWS's quality is top notch and they are good people to work with.
I own one piston upper: a POF 11.5" for my SBR. I really enjoy shooting it- very accurate but a tad heavy.
If I were looking for a piston AR, PWS would be at the top of my list.
I have been fortunate to shoot several of their rifles, mostly 16", but one 14.5. I have nothing but good things to say about their rifles. Exceptionally well built. The accuracy is incredible and beats any LWRC guns I have seen or shot. The 1/8 barrels are the way to go. If I was smart enough to post photos, I would put a couple in here.
Shot the 16" the other day out to 700 yards using Fed 69 grain Gold Medal Match and held about a 6" group. Guns don't like bipods because they are not free-floated, but I can shoot sub-1" groups using a rucksack as a rest at 100. No malfunctions to date.
As mentioned, the customer service sets the standard.
Paul
I have been fortunate to shoot several of their rifles, mostly 16", but one 14.5. I have nothing but good things to say about their rifles. Exceptionally well built. The accuracy is incredible and beats any LWRC guns I have seen or shot. The 1/8 barrels are the way to go. If I was smart enough to post photos, I would put a couple in here.
Shot the 16" the other day out to 700 yards using Fed 69 grain Gold Medal Match and held about a 6" group. Guns don't like bipods because they are not free-floated, but I can shoot sub-1" groups using a rucksack as a rest at 100. No malfunctions to date.
As mentioned, the customer service sets the standard.
Paul
Thank you for the info.
Did you notice any vertical stringing or wandering zero with the PWS?
Scoped, we started with a cold dirty and fired one round to see our cold dirty shot. Then three round groups on different target pasties until 23 total rounds fired and the gun heated up. It seemed to go up 1" and then right 1" at 100 yards. I need to do a bit more testing to see if it is the shooter or the gun. I can't remember if the shooter broke position between shots and lost original position. If I can replicate the drill again, I will and will provide feedback/target.
Paul
Scoped, we started with a cold dirty and fired one round to see our cold dirty shot. Then three round groups on different target pasties until 23 total rounds fired and the gun heated up. It seemed to go up 1" and then right 1" at 100 yards. I need to do a bit more testing to see if it is the shooter or the gun. I can't remember if the shooter broke position between shots and lost original position. If I can replicate the drill again, I will and will provide feedback/target.
Paul
Thanks for the info. I know it's not uncommon for some rifles to shift POA/POI once things start getting hot and I'm interested in how the PWS's non-floated barrel performs in this regard.
I run a MK114 as my duty rifle and am very happy with it. In the year I have owned it, I am up to a little over 4000 rounds through it to include a few classes.
I am not a fan of brakes and have an AAC mount on it. I am working on getting it all setup to run suppressed. With the suppressor on it, the rifle is a bit over gassed and I will be putting a Vltor A-5 reciever extension on it shortly to try to combat that a bit.
I have had one issue and that was the retaining spring inside the hammer somehow broke at some point. PWS was very quick about getting a new one out to me.
I am very happy with the accuracy and reliability of the rifle and my BCM setup has become my back up rifle.
With the suppressor on it, the rifle is a bit over gassed and I will be putting a Vltor A-5 reciever extension on it shortly to try to combat that a bit.
Have you looked at heavybuffers.com? He makes both anti-tilt and standard buffers in various weights and can probably make you something that allows you to retain the PWS buffer tube.
http://heavybuffers.com/
la-li-lu-le-lo
06-20-12, 23:22
I have a MK114 on lay away and after reading DMack's post, I am glad I chose the PWS. I have a POF P416 upper which has been reliable so far and cleaning it is a breeze. I've also been using a slide fire stock on it and so far no problems. I just dont like how the piston makes a lot of noise when the bolt is open.
With the suppressor on it, the rifle is a bit over gassed and I will be putting a Vltor A-5 reciever extension on it shortly to try to combat that a bit.
Scimitar2,
Do you have any updates on this? I've recently got my tax stamp back for my AAC suppressor and have been using the can on a number of rifles including a PWS. I've had a couple stovepipes and cases where the bolt has outrun the mag with the suppressor on and would like to get this issue corrected. I've had the same problem using a shooting buddy's Gemtech HALO.
Been running the A-5 RE for about a year now. About 3000ish rounds fired in that time, about 2/3rds of them suppressed with an AAC SPR/M4. 100% reliability without the suppressor. 100% reliabilty suppressed, but with the stock buffer the A-5 came with, ejection was still a bit eradic. Installed a VLTOR A-5 type H-3 buffer and the ejection has noticibly smoothed out and is much more consistant. Still runs 100% suppressed or unsuppressed. I could not be happier with the setup.
Prior to installing the A-5 parts, I sent the rifle back to PWS and on Christmas week to try to tune it down a bit, they replaced every part on my upper except the side and bottom rails and the BCG on thier dime to include second day shipping in both directions. The turn around time was one week. The week before Christmas..... Things were better after that, but I still installed the A-5 and am glad I did.
If there are any other questions, drop me a line.
Scimitar2,
Do you have any updates on this? I've recently got my tax stamp back for my AAC suppressor and have been using the can on a number of rifles including a PWS. I've had a couple stovepipes and cases where the bolt has outrun the mag with the suppressor on and would like to get this issue corrected. I've had the same problem using a shooting buddy's Gemtech HALO.
Been running the A-5 RE for about a year now. About 3000ish rounds fired in that time, about 2/3rds of them suppressed with an AAC SPR/M4. 100% reliability without the suppressor. 100% reliabilty suppressed, but with the stock buffer the A-5 came with, ejection was still a bit eradic. Installed a VLTOR A-5 type H-3 buffer and the ejection has noticibly smoothed out and is much more consistant. Still runs 100% suppressed or unsuppressed. I could not be happier with the setup.
Prior to installing the A-5 parts, I sent the rifle back to PWS and on Christmas week to try to tune it down a bit, they replaced every part on my upper except the side and bottom rails and the BCG on thier dime to include second day shipping in both directions. The turn around time was one week. The week before Christmas..... Things were better after that, but I still installed the A-5 and am glad I did.
If there are any other questions, drop me a line.
Thanks for the info. I've recently put a VLTOR A5 on my lower and it didn't really change much when running with a can. The gun still cycles very quickly and the brass is thrown out at about the 2:00 position. No stovepipes or bolt overrides but I still think it's running harder than ideal. This is with the A5H2 buffer. I'll give VLTOR a call and see about getting the A5H3.
On a related note, I bought a 6.6oz buffer from heavybuffers.com to run in the stock tube. The upper run OK suppressed with the heavy buffer and Wolff spring but wouldn't work at all with this combo unsuppressed.
I like the idea of the simple PWS system but I'm thinking it would benefit from some type of gas adjustment valve.
I've got the A5H3 buffer installed and have run some 62gr Speer Gold Dot through the rifle as well as some 62gr reloads. Ejection without the suppressor is fairly predictable but I still think the bolt is running too hard with the can attached. Cases are still thrown out at about 2:00 with the occasional case getting dropped right at my feet. No stovepipes or failures to feed.
I've got the Springco green spring ordered up. Let's see what that does.
EDIT:
I ran 30 rounds of 62gr reloads through the rifle this afternoon with one stovepipe. I also note that the rear edge of the right rail panel is getting dinged by brass.
Have you looked at heavybuffers.com? He makes both anti-tilt and standard buffers in various weights and can probably make you something that allows you to retain the PWS buffer tube.
http://heavybuffers.com/
+1 on Slash's heavy buffers. I had one made for my LMT piston after my extension tube wore down enough from carrier tilt to spit the buffer retaining pin out. Slash's anti-tilt buffer fixed the carrier tilt issue - though you do have to pop both pins out to field strip the AR.
I believe he makes some extra heavy anti-tilt buffers as well as "tune able" buffers.
I think I've tracked down my stovepipe issue. It looks like I've got a weak ejector spring in the PWS bolt. Running the rifle with a DI bolt results in consistent ejection to about the 4:00 position without my can and ejection to about the 2:00 with the can attached. And it doesn't look like the cases are hitting the leading edge of the ejection port now with the DI bolt in place.
On another note, I'd like to see Primary Weapons increase the diameter of the piston rod. As it is now, there's just enough room for a fired case to fit between the top of the bolt and the bottom of the piston and it won't fall out. Locking the bolt to the rear and slapping the charging handle forward does nothing since the case gets wedged between the gas piston and the bolt lugs. The only way to clear is with a strong finger and a pocket knife.
I haven't actually had this happen live fire but I did some training and shooting with my MK114 earlier in the week and we worked on our malfunction clearance drills. Actually getting a malfunction like this is probably going to be a rare bird but I'd hate to see Murphy disagree with me.
Here's what I'm talking about:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/PWS%20Mk116/utf-8BSU1HLTIwMTIwNzI5LTAwMDE0LmpwZw.jpg
viperashes
07-30-12, 03:23
I think I've tracked down my stovepipe issue. It looks like I've got a weak ejector spring in the PWS bolt. Running the rifle with a DI bolt results in consistent ejection to about the 4:00 position without my can and ejection to about the 2:00 with the can attached. And it doesn't look like the cases are hitting the leading edge of the ejection port now with the DI bolt in place.
On another note, I'd like to see Primary Weapons increase the diameter of the piston rod. As it is now, there's just enough room for a fired case to fit between the top of the bolt and the bottom of the piston and it won't fall out. Locking the bolt to the rear and slapping the charging handle forward does nothing since the case gets wedged between the gas piston and the bolt lugs. The only way to clear is with a strong finger and a pocket knife.
I haven't actually had this happen live fire but I did some training and shooting with my MK114 earlier in the week and we worked on our malfunction clearance drills. Actually getting a malfunction like this is probably going to be a rare bird but I'd hate to see Murphy disagree with me.
Here's what I'm talking about:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/PWS%20Mk116/utf-8BSU1HLTIwMTIwNzI5LTAwMDE0LmpwZw.jpg
I really appreciate this post. I've had the same issues and actually had that type of malfunction more than once live fire. I'm getting my MK110 back later this week after sending it in for a 3rd or 4th time. I've lost track at this point. I'm going to try using a standard bolt in this thing. I've had shit luck and actually completely destroyed my previous upper.
I've thought to try a standard bolt but haven't as I thought the issues were related to other things. I'm going to give this one last go before I ditch the thing. I've wanted to love this rifle from day one, but have had pretty significant issues with it. I'll try this as I've legitimately thought that the two things that you pointed out are the weak points of this system.
Can anyone else comment on this?
This is my SIG516 upper with the bolt and carrier fully in battery. Note that the locking lugs are fully seated inside the barrel extension.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/P1010625.jpg
This is my PWS MK114 upper with the bolt and carrier fully in battery. The locking lugs are visible against their respective barrel extension lugs. My MK109 upper is the same way. I wonder if there's something off with the PWS bolt carrier cam slot that is keeping the bolts from fully rotating into battery.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/P1010624.jpg
Of course this all could be absolutely nothing to get worked up about but I notice that the locking lugs on my MK114 and MK109 bolts are starting to look somewhat battered.
I've looked at a number of AR's--both piston and DI--from other makers and haven't noticed this from other brands.
Good information. I've been tinkering with purchasing a piston operated ar-15, and my research brings me to PWS.
I do have one silly question though, i have a CMMG .22lr conversion kit and i was wondering if anyone has tried this in their PWS? Im thinking i wont have a problem because the piston rod is attached the the bcg so there wont be the op rod to worry about, but i would like to know for sure before i purchase.
Tokarev,
try locking your standard BCG into the PWS and see how it looks. Measure the cam slot in the two BC using the side and front of the BC as reference. You can also compare the cam holes placement in the bolts in relation to the bolt lugs and face. Another way is if you install your standard bolt into the PWS BC does it lock the same way with the overlap and then what does it do when you lock the complete standard BCG in the PWS upper. That should tell you want you want to know. Then have some others that have PWS uppers post up what they have. This should at least show more of the scope of whats going on.
The lugs should lock all the way and not have over hang IMO as that means in your situation you have less lug to extension mating surface carrying the load so the load is focused on less lug area.
Didn't realize the OP was from so long ago..... so never mind....
Yes this is my first post and all but I have some trigger time with this gun. First of all the construction of the upper is very slim and well thought out with the pistion fully housed in the top rail, its much slimmer than my SIG516 and the unregulated gas block is tiny and fully enclosed in the top rail as well. The result is a very non-front heavy piston gun, it feels like a DI.
As far as what really matters, function, its GTG. Mine is 100% reliable with all loads, I had it at the range yesterday with XM193 ball and with an EoTech EXPS3 sight it printed avg .58"ctc 3 rd groups @ 50 yds, the standout accuracy load was of all things the PMC Bronze 55gr FMJBT load, that load avg was .25" ctc @ 50 yds. (For the record my 516 will print .15" ctc with the XM193 load, that rifle is tuned bolt gun accurate)
The PWS MK114 is without a doubt my preferred AR, its nearly as slim as than my Ruger 556E (that has no rails) and much lighter. A word of warning, as LAV noted the break is not for everybody, the rifle does not move when fired but the blast is highly enhnaced with this unit. I like the control of it, but then again I havent shot it without plugs. The report is ferocious.
The quality of the build is very good, lower is pretty standard stuff, trigger is typical GI, but I really like the upper, innovative rail/barrel/piston/carrier design. It runs on minimal lube and so far there is not tilt wear or wear of any kind, other than a scarred brass defelector. Just cant say enough good things about the rifle. I love my SIG516 (remarkable accuracy) but prefer the MK114 rail length and slim profile, piston design (very simple and easy to maintain), elimination of the extension and fluted mil-spec dia buffer tube, soft shooting charachteristics and accuracy. And yes, it looks like a 72 stingray, just plain sexy. (but practical as a suburban)
One word of warning, if you are a mag dump every weekend guy (I am not) you will need gloves and rail covers, the heat transfer from the barrel to the rails is considerable due to its propritary non free float barrel/rail arrangement.
I know the OP's post is old, but it seems like its worth commenting on since guys are still talking about it. Hope I brought something to the table with my first post. The MK114 is my current go to carbine.
M96 (and yes, I have a Robinson and thats another story altogether...)
PS: LAV, have you or will you be featuring the MK114 on the show? Great show BTW.
the pws 114 has been on my short list-with the lwrc spr(already have), and a knight's sr- 15( on its way).
has anyone, besides paul howe done some a comparison between the lwrc and the pws in terms of accuracy, balance, ease of handeling, and long term reliabilty?
I've dumped my MK11x stuff. Too much heat transfer into the rail. System way overgassed when suppressed and a wandering zero as the barrel and handguard heat and cool at different rates.
With that said I believe most, possibly all, of these issues have likely been addressed with the new Mod 1 system. PWS is now using a floated barrel along with an adjustable gas setting.
Sent from my Torque using Tapatalk 2
I've dumped my MK11x stuff. Too much heat transfer into the rail. System way overgassed when suppressed and a wandering zero as the barrel and handguard heat and cool at different rates.
With that said I believe most, possibly all, of these issues have likely been addressed with the new Mod 1 system. PWS is now using a floated barrel along with an adjustable gas setting.
Sent from my Torque using Tapatalk 2
Thanks alot Tokarev, very informative. i'll have to explore the mk114 further.....
Bad Medicine
08-12-13, 02:06
I have a MK116 and MK216 on order, the 116 should be here in a couple of months and the 216 beginning of next year. When I get them here, I would be more than happy to share my experience with them. I handled the 116 a little and noticed that it is super light and seems to "swing" faster than my old mod 0. I like the mod 0s but I like the updates on the mod 1 too much to not switch to it. I'd say that PWS isn't going anywhere but up, good people and a good product... Just hope they have continued with their new mods to their platform.
I recently upgraded from my Mk114Mod0 to a Mod1. The free floated keymod rail and adjustable gas system seem to have solved the heat transfer and over gassing issues. With my T-1 the zero holds tight and doesn't wander around as it heats up. The heat transfer feels to be more in line with my DI rifle. I don't miss the old, heavy 4 piece rail system at all. Much lighter, swings better and my arms aren't exhausted at the end of the day.
I haven't run it through a class yet though my father ran a Mk114Mod1 through a 2-day Hackathorn rifle course with no issues. It was one of their demo rifles and had been previously abused by writers, testers and employees.
I haven't seen the new Mod 1 system yet and have to admit I'm intrigued by it. I've been saying all along that the PWS generates too much heat even in mild use and the idea that I have to swap buffers every time I screw my suppressor on is a NO GO since there are some solid piston designs that allow the user to easily adjust the gas depending on use. I'm pleased to see that PWS has likely addressed both of these concerns.
Another thing I found on the old system
was fouling if used heavily with a suppressor mounted. We all know that cans greatly increase fouling in the upper but I also found that there was a good amount of fouling getting blown into the system from the gas tube. If the gun was a little dry or run with a fairly heavy grease it would dry out and/or turn to sludge in no time. I'm wondering if having the ability to turn the gas down a bit will help in this regard too.
Sent from my Torque using Tapatalk 4
I'd get rid of it if I were you and get something that's quality that you can run for thousands of rounds without cleaning and with proper lube.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, unless laziness is a factor. You can run your car for probably 20K+ miles without an oil change.....but why would you?
That said, even a piston gun needs cleaned eventually. It just puts carbon in a different place.
Didn't realize this was a necro thread. No point in posting.
Bad Medicine
08-19-13, 01:59
Didn't realize this was a necro thread. No point in posting.
How is this a necro thread when people have been posting on it?
I'm looking at the mk21x 308 rifles right now, anyone have anymore experience with them they can share?
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