View Full Version : Is this a decent HD setup? And recoil pad...
earthworm94
04-19-11, 00:30
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_QJ5lPaLXguA/Tao2HbwjdpI/AAAAAAAAH2A/CSPElK1vr1Q/s800/D7K_1866.JPG
I used a Magpul polymer rail bolted onto a standard handguard then attached the Streamlight TLR-1s and a Magpul MOE vertical foregrip.
I am just concerning about the durability of this setup, although I'm not going to use the weapon on daily so it doesn't need to be the toughest. However, all this stuff attached onto a plastic rail with 2 bolts only doesn't seems to be too strong.
On another completely unrelated note. Has anyone ever used a recoil pad on the stock? I'm a bony person so my shoulder hurts a little after my time at the range.
Thanks
If it works for you, no one else can tell you its "wrong". I know you're limited on space with that bolt-on rail but the vfg looks a bit close to the light. Can get a full grip on it and still activate the switch easily? IMO you'd be much better served with a quad rail or the MOE handguards - more space to mess around with light and grip placement. I like to have my support hand a bit further out and utilize the thumb break grip method. My light sits at 1 o'clock so its easy to activate and any shadow is projected downward at around 7-8 o'clock. I've always been weary about lights mounted at 6 o'clock on a longer barrel because of the shadow being projected directly into your sight picture.
Nothing wrong with recoil pads. I have the thicker pad on my MOE stock and I really like it. It's more comfortable and adds more length which helps since I'm tall.
I have run a similar set up on a rifle over a period of time under hard use and it survived as have others. For your uses it should be just fine. As for the butt stock pad I have run them on several occasions and prefer a stock with a rubber pad but this is for traction against my gear and not for padding or shock absorption, however without a doubt it should be more comfortable for you.
I installed a recoil pad on my Bushmaster when I owned it because it kicked very hard. This helped a bunch but the real reason the recoil was excessive was due to a large gas port. I installed an H2 buffer and the recoil was substantially reduced. Didn't need the recoil pad any more. I highly recommend going this route if your issue is related.
elephantrider
04-19-11, 01:31
In my opinion a good handgun would be a better choice for home defense. The AR-15 is a bit overkill, unless you live in a very rural area.
However, you could enhance the AR setup with a Magpul MOE handguard and an illumination kit for the MOE handguard. This will allow you to mount the vertical grip farther forward on the handguard. You have the verticle grip so close to the mag well it isn't doing you much good. Also, move your Aimpoint mount as far forward as you can on the receiver rail, it will make it a little faster to pick up the red dot when you present the rifle on target.
Would you care to explain why you feel an AR is overkill? As fot the Aimpoint his mounting position is pretty much online with others I have seen and used.
In my opinion a good handgun would be a better choice for home defense. The AR-15 is a bit overkill, unless you live in a very rural area.
However, you could enhance the AR setup with a Magpul MOE handguard and an illumination kit for the MOE handguard. This will allow you to mount the vertical grip farther forward on the handguard. You have the verticle grip so close to the mag well it isn't doing you much good. Also, move your Aimpoint mount as far forward as you can on the receiver rail, it will make it a little faster to pick up the red dot when you present the rifle on target.
Has anyone ever used a recoil pad on the stock?
ProMag makes a nice rubber buttpad for $8.- or so... yeah, I know, it's ProMag, but it's just a piece of molded rubber that slips over the M4 stock.
I've had mine for a couple years and really like it.
The Bushmasters we had in Iraq had some type of pad on the buttstock. I can't remember who makes it for the life of me.
Eurodriver
04-19-11, 02:11
In my opinion a good handgun would be a better choice for home defense. The AR-15 is a bit overkill, unless you live in a very rural area.
http://www.google.com/search?q=5.56+penetration+verse+handgun+rounds&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
BAM! Twice in one night.
In my opinion a good handgun would be a better choice for home defense. The AR-15 is a bit overkill, unless you live in a very rural area.
Handguns are for when you can't/don't have a rifle. There's no such thing as overkill.
http://www.google.com/search?q=5.56+penetration+verse+handgun+rounds&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
BAM! Twice in one night.
No one said anything about penetration.
Eurodriver
04-19-11, 02:55
No one said anything about penetration.
Please describe "overkill", in your words, regarding what you thought the poster meant by the term.
The common argument made by the anti-AR home defense crowd is that the AR overpenetrates when in fact that is not true.
Having a rifle/ carbine set up is probably the best solution. A pistol is a convenience weapon. I believe it's Clint Smith among others who has stated that a pistol is made to fight your way to a rifle.
No one said anything about penetration.
1) I find a recoil pad to be meh....but it can mitigate some discomfort, although you shouldn't really be hurting too bad. It can also provide for a tacky surface to assist in preventing the butt stock form slipping as well.
2) As far as the setup: play around find what suits your needs in your environment best. I am not a big fan of putting VG's on the round hand guards, and I, if it were my weapon, would look into a light mount that fits on the bayonet lug. It would push the light out farther.
Most importantly, train. Not just shoot. TRAIN to fight with your weapon.
The common argument made by the anti-AR home defense crowd is that the AR overpenetrates when in fact that is not true.
Having a rifle/ carbine set up is probably the best solution. A pistol is a convenience weapon. I believe it's Clint Smith among others who has stated that a pistol is made to fight your way to a rifle.
Handguns are for when you can't/don't have a rifle. There's no such thing as overkill.
:p
Rifles are for when you don't have a crew served weapon >.>
Some pads to look into. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=21630/Product/M4_BUTTSTOCK_PAD
earthworm94
04-19-11, 04:36
Some pads to look into.
?
Thanks.
Technique with the AR is going to mitigate sore shoulder better than any rubber pad, especially in 5.56. The pad that comes on the MOE, CTR, Emod, Imod, etc. are there to provide a non-slip surface not to absorb recoil.
I have found that most shooters with recoil issues are allowing the gun to bounce around rather than taking control of it. Pull the carbine into your shoulder using your support hand. You have that VFG on there, make use of it, but try to get your hand as high as you can so that you're not pulling down on the gun but pulling back as close to the boreline as possible. I think you're going to find that your light is in the way for this, but play around with it. Your strong hand is basically along for the ride and manipulating the controls (trigger, safety, mag release).
christcorp
04-19-11, 08:53
AR/.223/5.56 = Heavy recoil?????
I've seen the desire for a lot of AR "Toys". But a recoil pad or butt stock absorber just isn't one of them. To each their own. But I guess you can be too bony for an AR. Spotting scope? What are you expecting?
I don't understand "recoil" with an AR either. Everyone I've ever shot had practically no recoil. Even a day at the range in a T-Shirt firing a couple of hundred rounds was more than a pleasant day. No soreness, bruising etc.
Regardless like Rob_S said use your VFG and keep the stock planted properly and you will not have any issues with recoil
By the way your weapon looks like it will handle your needs just fine.
DaBears_85
04-19-11, 09:29
I've got a Tapco AR-15 butt pad (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=698175) you can have, provided that you pay for the shipping. :D
J
I was scratching my head on this as well.......?????
AR/.223/5.56 = Heavy recoil?????
Technique with the AR is going to mitigate sore shoulder better than any rubber pad, especially in 5.56. The pad that comes on the MOE, CTR, Emod, Imod, etc. are there to provide a non-slip surface not to absorb recoil.
I have found that most shooters with recoil issues are allowing the gun to bounce around rather than taking control of it. Pull the carbine into your shoulder using your support hand. You have that VFG on there, make use of it, but try to get your hand as high as you can so that you're not pulling down on the gun but pulling back as close to the boreline as possible.
I am going to second this thought.
I have seen major bruising result from a Flurry Course with a short barreled 12 gauge with no pad at all, but other then this have never seen a properly trained shooter have overly painful problems with recoil. What I have seen though with AR's is people un-learning what they learned with large calibers because the recoil is so minimal that they shoot to fast, and don't properly support the rifle.
My question for you is: Is this your first rifle?
earthworm94
04-19-11, 12:01
I have never said the recoil is heavy. It's not a 12ga shooting slugs. By all means the recoil is not intolerable but if there are things to make it more comfortable to shoot, why not?
Again, I am bony so there's not much "padding" on my shoulder. Sure, techniques makes all the difference as well. I learned that the hard way shooting 12ga slugs with (then) my Benelli Nova. Gave me a bruise for sure that time.
Also, I am shooting M855 ammo and now realized my rifle is running a standard (not H-marked) buffer. That might make a difference.
To the OP, I've seen handguard setups like that break at the holes with use over time. Have you utilized that streamlight at night in that position? Any issue with barrel shadow?
RogerinTPA
04-19-11, 15:32
I think there's a little "term" confusion going on every time someone states that they have issues with recoil in an AR platform. I think when they say "recoil" they mean uncontrolled or unmitigated "muzzle climb or jump". The recoil in the platform is not an issue. What Rob_S pointed out, proper technique to mitigate or manage the muzzle climb, in order to shoot 2 or more shots accurately, with speed and control, or lack there of, is the real issue. There are drills that folks can practice for both pistol and carbine, to help with learning what you need to do to become more proficient in taming that muzzle climb.
The VTAC Half and Half drill is an excellent drill for accuracy and muzzle control. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-oYRn_llgo
I have never said the recoil is heavy...
By all means the recoil is not intolerable but if there are things to make it more comfortable to shoot, why not?
Again, I am bony so there's not much "padding" on my shoulder. Sure, techniques makes all the difference as well.
+1
There's nothing wrong with wanting to mitigate recoil — otherwise all those fancy-schmantzy recoil devices wouldn't be sooo tacticool...
Like somebody else said, the slip-over rubber recoil pads add a little bit of pull and are tackier than the checkered plastic on the M4 butt: both good things.
The VTAC Half and Half drill is an excellent drill for accuracy and muzzle control. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-oYRn_llgo
Thank you for that. Pretty cool drill. I'll have to try that one!
Would you care to explain why you feel an AR is overkill? As fot the Aimpoint his mounting position is pretty much online with others I have seen and used.
I can think of a few reasons why I might want a pistol over an AR. I don't know if I would have said it is "overkill", but maybe not best choice for many circumstances.
Advantages of a pistol (approx extends 5" out of hand and can be controlled by one hand)
-gather up little ones, significant others, original Picasso's etc. with other hand while getting to safety
-open doors, windows, etc. easier
-alot of tight corners to maneuver and clear
-easier to store a pistol in a place that is both secure and quick to access
-short distances in your house, apartment, teepee, etc. that makes a rifle less advantageous.
-you live in a ban state that limits mags to 10 or 15 or whatever. This is not an absolute reason but makes a pistol seem not that much of a disadvantage firepower wise.
-you are more comfortable with pistols than rifles. I know people like this. I know people who are fast an accurate with pistols and you put a rifle in their hands and it seems to be a different person. Usually, it is attributed to lack of practice and proper technique, but these people exist.
I use a pistol for my primary home defense weapon for the first 4 reasons I listed. A rifle would be less than ideal for my particular situation. Granted I could have listed an equally long list of reasons why an AR is better than a pistol, but I am getting bored of typing.
I don't want to derail this thread. But, I could also make a counter-argument for everything you just posted. It's your house. Do what you think is best.
I can think of a few reasons why I might want a pistol over an AR. I don't know if I would have said it is "overkill", but maybe not best choice for many circumstances.
Advantages of a pistol (approx extends 5" out of hand and can be controlled by one hand)
-gather up little ones, significant others, original Picasso's etc. with other hand while getting to safety
-open doors, windows, etc. easier
-alot of tight corners to maneuver and clear
-easier to store a pistol in a place that is both secure and quick to access
-short distances in your house, apartment, teepee, etc. that makes a rifle less advantageous.
-you live in a ban state that limits mags to 10 or 15 or whatever. This is not an absolute reason but makes a pistol seem not that much of a disadvantage firepower wise.
-you are more comfortable with pistols than rifles. I know people like this. I know people who are fast an accurate with pistols and you put a rifle in their hands and it seems to be a different person. Usually, it is attributed to lack of practice and proper technique, but these people exist.
I use a pistol for my primary home defense weapon for the first 4 reasons I listed. A rifle would be less than ideal for my particular situation. Granted I could have listed an equally long list of reasons why an AR is better than a pistol, but I am getting bored of typing.
I don't want to derail this thread. But, I could also make a counter-argument for everything you just posted. It's your house. Do what you think is best.
I agree with you there. My last sentence stated an opposing list is just as easy to create.
OP, I've been almost exactly where you are... I bought a carbine during the AWB years, and had it set up very similarly. I was running a bolt on rail on the bottom of the standard handguards, along with a VFG, in almost the same place. I'm also a tall thin guy without a lot of excess padding anywhere, much less my shoulder.
I concur with earlier comments about ditching the handguards you have there and putting a set of MOEs on there...those weren't around back when I set my carbine up, and I wish they had been. They're light, durable, inexpensive, and you have several options for locating items on them. As a bonus, they look pretty cool.
When the ban lifted, I put a Bushy 4 position CAR stock on there that rattled badly and was a piece of junk. I ended up putting an LMT SOPMOD stock on there. It has a rubber pad on the end, as well as a phenomenal cheek weld. At the time, the Magpul ACS wasn't around either, but that's a very good choice too. A quality stock, combined with at least an H buffer will reduce felt recoil tremendously. (Though a rubber recoil pad wouldn't hurt.) As a point of reference, my 5.56 AK causes a nice yellow bruise in the pocket of my shoulder for several days after I take it out shooting, and I tuck it in tight when I shoot. It's just an occupational hazard.
Good luck with getting it set up how to want...I probably wouldn't have sunk so much money into farting around with that first carbine if I'd known about this place back then, if it existed in '04.
Thank you for that. Pretty cool drill. I'll have to try that one!
If you don't want to move you can do it all from one shooting position with different sized targets.
video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgvOMJan2d8)
mike boufford
04-19-11, 21:41
AR/.223/5.56 = Heavy recoil?????
I've seen the desire for a lot of AR "Toys". But a recoil pad or butt stock absorber just isn't one of them. To each their own. But I guess you can be too bony for an AR. Spotting scope? What are you expecting?
I'm an AR newbie by every definition. My son and I took the CAR out to the field to do some minor break in work (we just shot it). Bipod extended and sat "Indian style" with a good lock of the stock to the shoulder. Recoil was basically non-existent. The only annoyance was the boing oing oing oing of the buffer assembly when I shot.
I cannot imagine a recoil pad on any 5.56 platform. Is this just used to prevent slippage? The shotgun side of me (clays) thinks it would just be in the way.
ghostman1960
04-19-11, 23:39
I used to shoot a lot of old milsurp rifles in calibers from 7mm to 30-06 and everything in between. These rifles all had steel butt stocks. I learned to shoot those without hurting my shoulder or resorting to recoil pads. The thought of using a recoil pad for a 5.56 has never even crossed my mind. Its all in how you hold the rifle and where you place it on your shoulder.
Felt recoil also depends a lot on how the stock fits you/where you hold it. More contact = less feel. Pads don't do a lot for recoil.
rubicon1000
04-20-11, 01:24
Bushmaster sells a rubber but pad in their cataloge its made by vicking. I have one and it fits the six position stock real nice and helps with the grip but recoil isn't enough to know if it helps or not. Hope this helps..Rubicon
earthworm94
04-20-11, 02:15
AR/.223/5.56 = Heavy recoil?????
I've seen the desire for a lot of AR "Toys". But a recoil pad or butt stock absorber just isn't one of them. To each their own. But I guess you can be too bony for an AR. Spotting scope? What are you expecting?
I addressed the recoil issue earlier. Once again, I have never said or implied the recoil was heavy. I've shot a 12ga (with slugs), Mauser K98K and even a Barrett M82 once (although for about 5-7 rds). I have a decent scale of recoil in mind. And we all understood techniques will help mitigating recoil as well as gun setup like different weights of buffer.
I'm still relatively new to the whole AR thing and I don't get to shoot all that much for various reasons. However, one should not be insulted from asking an exploratory question. Learning process sometimes involves asking stupid or seemingly stupid questions.
Bottom line is, the discomfort is almost negligible and does not and will not discourage me from shooting. I will also be more aware of my technique next time I head out to the range.
Regarding the use of a spotting scope. I was re-zeroing my Aimpoint earlier and unfortunately my average eyesight does not allow me to see 5.56mm holes from 50yds away. It is very common to have spotting scopes set up even for the distance of 50ft during target shooting with .22 target rifle.
(Rant's over...)
Thank you very much for everyone's input and the lively discussion. I always enjoy participating in this forum as I always feel like the forum-ites here are top-notch and very knowledgeable.
Regarding the use of a spotting scope. I was re-zeroing my Aimpoint earlier and unfortunately my average eyesight does not allow me to see 5.56mm holes from 50yds away. It is very common to have spotting scopes set up even for the distance of 50ft during target shooting with .22 target rifle.
Honestly, the statement about the spotting scope was a cheap shot low blow to the kidneys and uncalled for. If I had a spotting scope I would use it in a heart beat so that I could keep shooting more, and walk less. The area I shoot in is not fun to walk to the targets, and like you I cant see my groups at 50 yards either...:)
Regarding the recoil, I think you got a lot of good info. I'm not as skinny of a guy, but I'm pretty boney on my shoulders and I've found that the only time my 5.56 gives me a nip is when I'm slacking as a user. Just like every gun, you can feel it after the shot when your not holding it properly... The goal should be that you try and eliminate this issue completely so that every time you squeeze you're sure of the commitment to the shot.
From someone that went from really high calibers all his life, to a 5.56, the one issue I see with the "black rifle" crowd is that it's too easy for noobs to simply pull the trigger (due to high round capacity, and lack of recoil). If not taught properly a noob will never learn how to control their rifle and will be relegated to the realm of The Bubba.
I've always looked at recoil as a physical reminder that I am pushing death down range. This is something I take very seriously whether it's .22 LR or a 12 gauge slug.
...Pads don't do a lot for recoil.
That depends on the pad and the rifle!
That depends on the pad and the rifle!
Fine, they don't reduce recoil, they temporarily deform to negate (with varying amounts of success) the effects of shock -.-
I've found on vintage rifles (like Kar98s) which have pretty sharp recoil, the amount of stock you can get to touch your body achieves pretty much the same effect.
Adding more mass to the rifle otoh >.>
Someone once told me that if I lived in the 16th century and I knew I was going to get into a fight. What weapon would I take. The dagger or the sword. Sword is the clear answer. Like the dagger. a pistol is a weapon of convenience. But when the fight comes, you want the sword or in our case the rifle. So if your buying a weapon for HD you get one that's going to get the job done. And sadly the pistol isn't going to be your best choice there.
If this is the kind of Class A Dumbery we're gonna be spitting out, can we please get past the misconception that this is a "What Weapon for HD Should I Use?" thread? Because it's NOT.
Sword analogies? For real?
You ever try to use a sword of any sort in a Rennaissance/Reformation Era house, or ANY house for that matter, Brave Sir Robin?
Are you aristocracy, landed gentry, merchant or peasant in this scenario? What's available to your social station? Are you limited to a knife or a sword? Why not a flintlock pistol or musket? Maybe you're the Pope and can depend upon your Swiss Guard to keep you safe...?
If you're gonna go with a jacked-up comparison, at least make it a jacked-up comparison that's historically relevant and complete, and NOT based on the World of Warcraft experience of whomever it is you picked it up from.
Fine, they don't reduce recoil, they temporarily deform to negate (with varying amounts of success) the effects of shock -.-
I've found on vintage rifles (like Kar98s) which have pretty sharp recoil, the amount of stock you can get to touch your body achieves pretty much the same effect.
Adding more mass to the rifle otoh >.>
I won't argue that a thin buttstock will be painful!
My point is that recoil pads do make a difference. I have a lightweight hunting rifle that is known for it's particularly sharp recoil. I had the factory recoil pad replaced with a Pachmayr Decelerator and it's recoil is much more comfortable
Sciuirse Morrigna
04-21-11, 12:33
OP, I wouldn't know about pads for that style of stock, so I won't comment.
I'd have no qualms about running a light mounted to that style of handguard, though I'd argue for mounting the rail on TOP of the handguards and using an offest light mount. But that's a preference issue.
But those handguards aren't going to hold up to the stresses of that VFG. I wouldn't even use a MOE handguard with a VFG, to be honest. You really might want to look into ponying up for a set of rails when you can afford them.
As for the rifle for home defense, the LACK of overpenetration of the target due to fragmentation, and the lack of penetrating cover on a miss, even compared to pistol rounds, is why an AR is my #1 choice for personal defense in the home.
Other advantages are that some classes of criminal have taken to wearing Level II armor which makes pistols and buckshot fairly ineffective. Yes, I know it'll still hurt, but when the guy breaks in is jacked up on coke or PCP, "hurts bad" doesn't get it. 5.56x45 has no trouble with such issues. Then there's the fact that with a little training, a two handed weapon like a rifle gives you quite a few options in the hand-to-hand arena.
I use extended pads on all of mt setups when possible, but it has nothing to do with recoil, and everything to do with the fit on my shoulder, and especially the length of pull. A short stock is difficult for me, that's why my preference is now for the ACS with extended pad.
Is this a decent HD setup?
That's not too bad. You're light years ahead of some booger eater with a bird gun for sure!
I personally don't like lights or grips on the bottom of my handguards for a few reasons. (shooting over cover/concealment and support hand slide POA adjustment)
But you have a light, a carbine, and a sling. You're better set up than most people.
I still don't understand why more people don't use the FSB rails for lights. Arguably, it puts the light exactly where it needs to be (10 or 2 o'clock), is stable, and is not dependant on the type of handguard you are using. Every single FSB I have owned had the rails on them and I couldn't have been happier. Only downside is the weight and that was negligable.
(first FSB rail I had, sling point has been moved and the G2 is mounted in a Vltor mount now)
http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr173/nimdabew/Guns/DSCN2585.jpg
http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr173/nimdabew/Guns/DSCN2583.jpg
But those handguards aren't going to hold up to the stresses of that VFG. I wouldn't even use a MOE handguard with a VFG, to be honest. You really might want to look into ponying up for a set of rails when you can afford them.
I'm a big fan of buying trying to break things. It's gotten me in trouble at various jobs in the past (usually that are managed by idiots who just want results rather then quality). For example, if I do an epoxy bond on something, and the specs of the glue state it should stand up to X amount of pressure, I will subject it to X amount of pressure before I install just out of curiosity. If it breaks, it breaks, and it answers my query. This is how I've decided that traditional epoxy is worthless for 90% of it's advertised applications... :)
Anyway I have tried to break my MOE hand guard and fore grip as a unit. I honestly don't see it breaking any sooner then a traditional gip would if mounted to a rail.
I still don't understand why more people don't use the FSB rails for lights.
My thought (and I am not an expert at all) would be that such an approach adds variables that increases the risk of something canting the FSB off base.
My thought (and I am not an expert at all) would be that such an approach adds variables that increases the risk of something canting the FSB off base.
Not a pinned FSB... it's closer to heat, but not a big deal. I'm just weird about stuff touching my barrel or FSB.
It's personal preference... but I like my light button a little further back than an FSB mount will allow. I'm not big on the "Scorpion" method of shooting. :p
but I like my light button a little further back than an FSB mount will allow. I'm not big on the "Scorpion" method of shooting.
Not that bad, but a remote switch would work better.
Jim
http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/SAM_0263.jpg
Sciuirse Morrigna
04-22-11, 00:26
Anyway I have tried to break my MOE hand guard and fore grip as a unit. I honestly don't see it breaking any sooner then a traditional gip would if mounted to a rail.
If it works for you, go for it.
I'd still rather attach it to aluminum than plastic, but I've been accused of living in the past, too.
Paladin801
04-22-11, 07:00
To the OP, there were some great points made here. Limb saver makes an excellent recoil reducing pad. I use it not as much for the recoil reducing but I have long arms and am quite "robust". The extra inch still lets me keep the stock in the first position; therefore keeping it as compact as possible for me. It also keeps the butt from slipping while either not wearing anything to dress gear. You know your surroundings better than anyone here so whatever works for your domain is what you should use. "KISS" and be familiar with your gear is my only suggestion. Good Luck.
earthworm94
04-22-11, 11:43
If you feel 5.56 to have too much recoil, may I also suggest you take a look at these pads:
http://www.google.com/m/search?site=images&source=mog&gl=us&q=maxi%20pads#i=8
Where in the post by me that says 5.56 has too much recoil? I have cleared that one potential misconception before so please read my previous replies.
Not only this post adds nothing to the conversation, in my opinion, it is insulting to women and that is not acceptable. I am sure there are quite a few women (who have utilities of the said pads) and can shoot just as well as most of us. Secondly, it takes more than that to insult me so please try harder next time.
Mods, I think I have got sufficient responses to my questions at this point. And if all is left is stupid insults that is totally irrelevant to this discussion, please feel free to close this thread.
Once again, thank you very much for all the inputs. It could mean I get to spend a bit more money on ammo and equipment as well as range time.
Good news is, I found a very nice range last week and now I am a annual member which means I can shoot there all I like for only $20 per year.
SWATcop556
04-22-11, 11:57
Closed per OPs request.
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