View Full Version : Is there any real benefit to using a trust if the CLEO will sign?
lloydkristmas
04-19-11, 17:51
Hi, I scanned through the stickied topics, didnt see a relevant answer, forgive me if I missed something.....
This is my first foray into the NFA world, I'm doing a SBR HK PDW and am trying to decide between the trust route and the CLEO signoff route.
My local chief WILL sign. From what I understand, the CLEO signature makes things a little more convenient, and the only benefit I can see to the trust is that my brother would be able to use the weapon in my absence.
Again, pardon my ignorance, I've been slowly educating myself on NFA stuff over the past few days.....
brantley65
04-19-11, 19:20
No fingerprints and no pics needed.
lloydkristmas
04-19-11, 19:30
Maybe Im wrong but the fingerprints and photos will probably cost about the same as the Willmaker software....The trust route seems a little more ideal but a hell of a lot more complicated, and easier to screw up.
No fingerprints and no pics needed.
What he said. Also, makes it easier for your heirs to take possession after your death. Also, anyone on the Trust may possess the weapons.
So why are you asking if you have it figured out?
1. The software can be found for as low as 29.99
2. It isn't terribly complicated and it can be easily figured out by contacting another member in your state that has a trust.
3. Less BS and wait for the CLEO signature as well as the asscociated wait through FBI.
4. Nobody else knows that you have it except for you and the BATFE.
5. Anyone listed on the trust can have possession whether or not you are present.
Nothing stated here is to be construed as legal advice.
Maybe Im wrong but the fingerprints and photos will probably cost about the same as the Willmaker software....The trust route seems a little more ideal but a hell of a lot more complicated, and easier to screw up.
lloydkristmas
04-19-11, 21:14
So why are you asking if you have it figured out?
1. The software can be found for as low as 29.99
2. It isn't terribly complicated and it can be easily figured out by contacting another member in your state that has a trust.
3. Less BS and wait for the CLEO signature as well as the asscociated wait through FBI.
4. Nobody else knows that you have it except for you and the BATFE.
5. Anyone listed on the trust can have possession whether or not you are present.
Nothing stated here is to be construed as legal advice.
Well, I think Im getting there, but Im far from having it all figured out. The statement in bold, do you mean that there is less wait if you get a CLEO signoff as opposed to forming a trust?
On one hand, I'd like for my brother to have access to the weapon, but on the other hand, the CLEO sign off seems simpler.
Again, thanks guys. Definately a NFA newbie here....
What he said. Also, makes it easier for your heirs to take possession after your death.
That isn't true. The beneficiary must do form 5s just like if they were willed from an individual.
The only time this is easier if there is a middle man (successor trustee) before the beneficiary.
Depending on what state you live in, it is better to do a LLC and keep it in good standing for $10 to $15 a year. You can pass the LLC to your descendants and no new NFA forms need to be completed.
I also don't recommend quicken willmaker and would recommend a real NFA lawyer set this up for $500.
lloydkristmas
04-19-11, 21:34
That isn't true. The beneficiary must do form 5s just like if they were willed from an individual.
The only time this is easier if there is a middle man (successor trustee) before the beneficiary.
Depending on what state you live in, it is better to do a LLC and keep it in good standing for $10 to $15 a year. You can pass the LLC to your descendants and no new NFA forms need to be completed.
I also don't recommend quicken willmaker and would recommend a real NFA lawyer set this up for $500.
$500 spent on a lawyer, despite the added security of a solid trust, simply isnt worth it for me. I'm just going to have the Chief sign it. Thanks guys
I recommend a CLEO signature if you can get one. You don't have to upkeep anything on a yearly basis.
Also, if your state requires it, the schedule A for a trust must be notarized every time you update it (every time you buy a new gun with the trust). So you now have to take this to your bank or some other business to get this notarized, and now they get to look at a list of your NFA weapons which I don't like. I also don't recommend you notarize your own schedule A.
lloydkristmas
04-19-11, 21:40
I recommend a CLEO signature if you can get one. You don't have to upkeep anything on a yearly basis.
Also, if your state requires it, the schedule A for a trust must be notarized every time you update it (every time you buy a new gun with the trust). So you now have to take this to your bank or some other business to get this notarized, and now they get to look at a list of your NFA weapons which I don't like. I also don't recommend you notarize your own schedule A.
Interesting, noted. Thanks
I have not had to notarize when my Schedule A when I have added new items and BATFE has approved it every time.
I am just using my state as an example.
A trust also makes it easy if you want other to have access to your stuff when you aren't around.
I recommend a CLEO signature if you can get one. You don't have to upkeep anything on a yearly basis.
Also, if your state requires it, the schedule A for a trust must be notarized every time you update it (every time you buy a new gun with the trust). So you now have to take this to your bank or some other business to get this notarized, and now they get to look at a list of your NFA weapons which I don't like. I also don't recommend you notarize your own schedule A.
lloydkristmas
04-19-11, 21:46
I have not had to notarize when my Schedule A when I have added new items and BATFE has approved it every time.
I am just using my state as an example.
A trust also makes it easy if you want other to have access to your stuff when you aren't around.
Speaking of, that brings me to another question.
I know that the rules stipulate that I must be in control of the NFA weapon at all times.....so lets say I have a two month rotation at a hospital in Arkansas (Im in TX, so the SBR cant follow me there) what do I do? Can I leave it at home? Sure its in a safe, but what about the wife? Is she then in posession of the SBR illegaly? I searched various sites earlier but couldnt get a clear answer.
Speaking of, that brings me to another question.
I know that the rules stipulate that I must be in control of the NFA weapon at all times.....so lets say I have a two month rotation at a hospital in Arkansas (Im in TX, so the SBR cant follow me there) what do I do? Can I leave it at home? Sure its in a safe, but what about the wife? Is she then in posession of the SBR illegaly? I searched various sites earlier but couldnt get a clear answer.
I would always recommend owning title-2 firearms individually if you can get a signature. The only time I would advocate doing otherwise is if you have multiple family members who you want to be able to shoot/use/have control of. And in that case I would go with an LLC or corporation where you can list those multiple people as members of the LLC or corporation. I own most of my title-2 stuff individually (have been very fortunate with CLEO signatures), but also have an LLC in Florida where my family owns a few MGs and SBRs so that my dad and brother may also take them to the range.
Speaking of, that brings me to another question.
I know that the rules stipulate that I must be in control of the NFA weapon at all times.....so lets say I have a two month rotation at a hospital in Arkansas (Im in TX, so the SBR cant follow me there) what do I do? Can I leave it at home? Sure its in a safe, but what about the wife? Is she then in posession of the SBR illegaly? I searched various sites earlier but couldnt get a clear answer.
Speaking of your hospital rotations, are you a medical student or resident?
Your SBR can accompany you with a 5320.20 to any state that allows title-2 firearm ownership.
I have not had to notarize when my Schedule A when I have added new items and BATFE has approved it every time.
I am just using my state as an example.
A trust also makes it easy if you want other to have access to your stuff when you aren't around.
Same here... The first time I added an NFA item I went down and had the Trust RE-notorized.... :rolleyes:
I felt like a tard when I figgered out that I could just update the Sch. A and send it to ATF.
lloydkristmas
04-19-11, 22:41
Speaking of your hospital rotations, are you a medical student or resident?
Your SBR can accompany you with a 5320.20 to any state that allows title-2 firearm ownership.
Im in Physical Therapy school.
Im not sure if Arkansas does SBRs, but even if they did, I'll be staying in a house with several other students that is provided by the hospital, not the best place to store an NFA weapon for 2 months...
Someone else addressed it so....... File the form for the states where you know it is legal and will be traveling.
If it is locked up and cannot be accessed by anyone else while you are away AFAIK you are golden. If you have a trust and she is on it, then you are covered.
Speaking of, that brings me to another question.
I know that the rules stipulate that I must be in control of the NFA weapon at all times.....so lets say I have a two month rotation at a hospital in Arkansas (Im in TX, so the SBR cant follow me there) what do I do? Can I leave it at home? Sure its in a safe, but what about the wife? Is she then in posession of the SBR illegaly? I searched various sites earlier but couldnt get a clear answer.
lloydkristmas
04-19-11, 23:05
Someone else addressed it so....... File the form for the states where you know it is legal and will be traveling.
If it is locked up and cannot be accessed by anyone else while you are away AFAIK you are golden. If you have a trust and she is on it, then you are covered.
Excellent this is what i needed to know
Same here... The first time I added an NFA item I went down and had the Trust RE-notorized.... :rolleyes:
I felt like a tard when I figgered out that I could just update the Sch. A and send it to ATF.
Will they accept that? The last time I talked to a BATFE examiner they wanted the complete trust document.
You took this out of context. He sends the ENTIRE trust again with the new Schedule A. But, he doesn't get it notarized again. Neither have I and it has been approved every time.
Will they accept that? The last time I talked to a BATFE examiner they wanted the complete trust document.
RAM Engineer
04-20-11, 07:24
I use assignment sheets instead of a schedule A. I just send in an assignment sheet for each purchase I make. No "running list" is sent in each time. It only has the items ON THAT PURCHASE. No notarization required, been approved every time.
You took this out of context. He sends the ENTIRE trust again with the new Schedule A. But, he doesn't get it notarized again. Neither have I and it has been approved every time.
Thanks.
Blankety blank 'context' things.:laugh:
NFATracker shows individual routes taking about 30 days more than Trust methods. Here's a link for Willmaker that's even less than $10--worked perfectly for me. No call from the examiner and 94 days sent-received.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Quicken-WILLMAKER-Plus-2007-Estate-Planning-SoftwareNEW-/360360942469?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e72f9b85
This method has worked for several of my "Stamp Collecting" friends as well. SBRs, MGs, Silencers.
brantley65
04-20-11, 12:13
I found a lawyer through a Class 3 dealer in SC that did my trust for $195.00
I decided to have my CLEO sign all 4 of my forms. I live in the county so it was the Sheriff that did it and he is cool. By the time I went in for my 4th he just had me drop off the form to be signed and I picked it up in the afternoon when I got finger printed. The biggest cost surprise has been the finger printing, I have spent a 120 dollars on finger printing alone.
I feel a big advantage to owning as an indivual is that YOU own it and not the trust.
There were rumors on Silencer talk of eliminating CLEO signoff. My CLEO didn't know me from Steve but he was able to look me up and down shake my hand/look me in the eye and all the stuff. That whole step is a wee bit outdated. I just hope that if they start changing rules like that we don't stir the bee's nest and other things start changing that would negatively effect title II ownership.
ETA: clown shoes on my part
Where the advantage of this comes into play is IF the BATF ever decides trusts and corps/llc etc.. are not longer alowed to own title II guns
That would require an new law passed by congress and signed by the president and that isn't going to happen. The ATF cannot decide to put an end to trusts or corps.
It is specifically written in the NFA of 1934 that individuals, trusts, or corps can own NFA weapons.
That would require an new law passed by congress and signed by the president and that isn't going to happen. The ATF cannot decide to put an end to trusts or corps.
It is specifically written in the NFA of 1934 that individuals, trusts, or corps can own NFA weapons.
I stand corrected, thanks for the clarification. I "thought" this was something that was allowed under current BATF "interpretation" of the law and could change at the BATF level.
Inkslinger
04-20-11, 17:14
I have not had to notarize when my Schedule A when I have added new items and BATFE has approved it every time.
I am just using my state as an example.
A trust also makes it easy if you want other to have access to your stuff when you aren't around.
Wouldn't you have to get it notarized after the approval. You technically can't own the item until after you are aproved to do so.
devilsdeeds
04-20-11, 18:14
NFATracker shows individual routes taking about 30 days more than Trust methods. Here's a link for Willmaker that's even less than $10--worked perfectly for me. No call from the examiner and 94 days sent-received.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Quicken-WILLMAKER-Plus-2007-Estate-Planning-SoftwareNEW-/360360942469?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e72f9b85
This method has worked for several of my "Stamp Collecting" friends as well. SBRs, MGs, Silencers.
Bought it, thanks :) Looking to get an sbr later this year.
Wouldn't you have to get it notarized after the approval. You technically can't own the item until after you are aproved to do so.
Yes, this is true and why you have to get it notarized in some states every time you get a new item.
This is the case in Nebraska, and this why it is easier to get an LLC in Nebraska and pay $15 a year to keep it in good standing, instead of passing around papers that list all the MGs, DD, Silencers, etc that you own to people who have no business looking at it.
Other states might be different.
No. Here it is in the Barney version.
1. Went to dealer and purchased item. Obtained serial number and other pertinent info.
2. Took the trust which was already completed and notarized and added the item to the Schedule A. BATFE has never mentioned the issue of adding the item to the trust in advance.
3. Sent the trust and all the other required docs to BATFE along with check for 200.00.
4. Received approval approx. 87 days later. That's it.
Wouldn't you have to get it notarized after the approval. You technically can't own the item until after you are aproved to do so.
A couple of big pluses for a trust even when the CLEO will sign:
1. Management: An individual form 1 applies to a single person foreever. A trust can be amended to add or remove persons authorized to posses the NFA items.
2. Time: Your recreational time is worth something. Why spend it running about, getting poked, prodded, fingerprinted, photographed and interrogated by the CLEO?
Two big reasons.
Cheers,
SC-Texas
Depends on your situation. For me, I have no need to have other people authorized to be in possession. My CLEO signoffs have taken about 10 minutes and they have done the fingerprints at the same time so no real inconvenience there. Not everyone is in the same situation so it is good that there are options.
Submariner
04-27-11, 10:06
If you have a trust and she is on it, then you are covered.
Is there any difference if "she is on" it as a trustee or beneficiary?
Is there any difference if "she is on" it as a trustee or beneficiary?
It's a bit of a "what if?" but, what if someone other than the papered owner wishes to go shoot it without the owner present?
If that person is on the trust there's no apparent problem I'd imagine.
Someone else addressed it so....... File the form for the states where you know it is legal and will be traveling.
If it is locked up and cannot be accessed by anyone else while you are away AFAIK you are golden. If you have a trust and she is on it, then you are covered.
and what if she has the combo to your safe?
then you are in violation........
sigh.........so much Govt. BS.:jester::rolleyes:
Did you bother to read this? If your spouse is on the trust then it's not a problem. If she isn't then she can't have the combo (hence the ANYONE ELSE) comment. It's pretty simple.
You popped up out of nowhere and started making short little comments in various threads that don't mean much. Check yourself, before you.......
and what if she has the combo to your safe?
then you are in violation........
sigh.........so much Govt. BS.:jester::rolleyes:
I've used a CLEO on both of mine but I should relate that if I was not a LEO myself I would have gone the trust route. The hassle was not there, my Chief was good about it and I'm not in a huge rush to worry about it being here in in less than 100 days or what ever (although that would be nice).
The last individual transfer that I did earlier this year took 16 weeks.
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