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ALCOAR
04-20-11, 16:36
I wanted to start this thread in order to have folks who participate actively or plan to participate actively in this "Precision" sub forum weigh in with their exact thoughts and definition of what the term "Precision" actually means and translates to in the real world when shooting the said "Precision" rifles.

IMHO.....

"Precision" is not only a form of shooting with a rifle, it's a specific set of specs/parts that make up certain rifles, and it's also a mentality or mindset using a much more methodical and deliberate approach to shooting. Quite frankly, "good enough" need not apply...it's all about striving for ultimate perfection using numerous aspects in order to fulfill that perfection.

"Combat" or "practical" accuracy has NO place in the "Precision" realm, owning a colt 6920 and scoping it out for a day w. some match quality ammo to fire some groups or shoot some LR steel is completely beyond the pale of true "Precision"....Yet so many people believe that because they don't break in their CL barrel on their M4, or they wait for thousands of rounds before cleaning it, or that SS barrels are a waste, or that they didn't need a FF rail, etc., and they just shot some "precision" groups with their non "Precision" rifle they some how have merit to speak on the topic of true "precision".

This is a really niche'd sub forum, not everyone and every rifle apply....I just think it's important to draw a clear line between "precision" and "practical"...and try and keep as much "practical" as we can outta this subforum. It's completely killing this forum imho.

The "how often do I clean my barrel" thread in the General or technical AR discussion sub forums should be completely different then the "how often do I clean my match SS precision barrel" thread in this "Precision" subforum for example.

The phrase..."why use a filet mignon when a sloppy joe gets the job done" might work in the other various sub forums, however in this one it's not applicable in the least.

"Good enough" and "precision" is in my book an oxymoron.

JeffWard
04-20-11, 16:50
I don't know... Does a 1 MOA rifle qualify? 1/2 MOA? 1/4 MOA? Do you need a mil adjustable scope, and ballistics charts on the side of your stock?

My definition would be a gun that is capable of repeatable 1/2 MOA groups, which is pretty rare air. Regardless of parts, investment, or brand.

Long range shooting is a sport. "Precision Rifle" is a relative term.

JW

FromMyColdDeadHand
04-20-11, 19:37
Probability of a first shot hit on a target of a certain size at some range.

Since we are talking about semi autos you could perhaps change "probability of a first shot hit" with "time to hit".

az doug
04-20-11, 19:48
I believe it has much to do with the rifles intended purpose. Why did the person build/buy that particular rifle. If it was to shoot, or learn to shoot, sub-moa groups at distance then I believe they belong in this sub forum.

Their first build may not accomplish their goal, but this should be where they come to learn what changes they need to make, in their rifle, ammo and shooting technique, in order to achieve their goal.

Just some thoughts. Hope they makes sense.

R/Tdrvr
04-20-11, 20:23
My definition would be a gun that is capable of repeatable 1/2 MOA groups, which is pretty rare air. Regardless of parts, investment, or brand.


Not only that, but a shooter that can exploit that type of accuracy every time.

ZRH
04-20-11, 21:12
An M107 is a 3 MOA 'sniper' rifle. That's "good enough" for anti-matériel work at long range.

I think precision is when you start trading off lightweight features in favor of repeatable accuracy features.

JFArmsCo
04-20-11, 21:29
I went with the Mk12 Mod 1 as my "Precision" rig. Its capable of 1/2 MOA when shot in a mechanical rest, but its light enough to carry in the field if needed.

I setup my 4in steel plate at 400 yards 3 days ago. We managed to have just a slight breeze and a slightly overcast day. I put 20 out of 20 75gr Hornady BTHP Match handloads on this steel plate. This was shooting off of just sand bags(front and rear).

The whole purpose of this build was to fill a role of Precision Rifle, Im working on getting 550 yards setup at home, and I'd like to see what it does at that distance.

ALCOAR
04-20-11, 22:43
Thanks guys, no right or wrong answers.

Personally I don't break in my match SS barrels per say, I do however clean very often. I buy into and document as much as I can things like mirage effects, cold bore shots, higher temp's on SS barrels and how that translates to precision accuracy opening up, etc. I take none of those things into consideration outside of "precision" and by extension outside of this subforum.

I also don't think anyone should have to shoot certain group sizes to qualify for discussion in this subforum...its all about chasing the most accuracy that is possible for their said application.

rob_s
04-21-11, 06:00
If I wake up at the range with a gun in front of me, I know I've been shooting "precision". :sarcastic:

1371USMCFL
04-21-11, 08:32
to me, a "precision" semi-auto is one that can provide accurate fire at distance at a rapid rate. My only real experience with it is watching others use a Mk12 and my own experience with the weapon. We used it as an extension of a M16/M4. It had the ability to see further than our 4x Acogs and provide accurate fire further downrange. On the flip side, you could put it on group therapy and send lead down range.

the military definition and the civilian definition are different. an example of this would be that military precision is what trident calls "practical" from what I can tell.

m1ajunkie
04-21-11, 10:58
IMO, the semi auto version of "precision" is what most are referring to as practical. If I wanted a true precision rifle, I would get a bolt gun as that seems to be the most effective way to consistently get sub .5moa groups.

One main identifier of a precision rifle is the optics, not by them self but when coupled with the accuracy needed to hit your desired target at your max effective range. The ability to range a target, dial in/ holdover with the correct dope and make not only first round but repeated hits on the desired target seperates a precision rifle from one where you can make the hits, but you have to take multiple rounds to do so.

With my semi auto rifles I expect 1moa or less either from single 10 round groups or multiple 5 round groups. After initial sight in/ group shooting is finished I like to shoot in a more "practical" sense. Engaging multiple targets at extended distance and running drills on targets at varied distances not adjusting knobs, are what I consider worthwhile practice.

Shooting small groups from the bench or prone at known distance is fun, but there are a lot more skills necessary to correctly use a precision rifle. I have started shooting in some local competitions and that is by far the best training I have encountered. This makes you get outside of your comfort level and practice things you normally avoid because they aren't as fun.

mike boufford
04-21-11, 11:11
This is a great thread and something from which this old reloader is learning. Back when I was younger I was able to take a lot of hunting rifles, work up a good load for the owner, and have what I thought was a fair tack driver which would normally drive the varmint hunters nuts when they were sighting in next to me.

Times have definitely changed now that I'm getting back into the shooting game(s). Precision is not only getting tighter but the distances are beyond what I would have expected decades ago. Deer shot over 200 yards back then with an average rifle was unheard of, and thought not to be ethical. 400 yard kill capable rounds were limited to 4 thirty years ago; my old 26-06 was one of them even though it was on the seemingly maligned Ruger M-77 platform. Now there are more choices for scopes, rifles (semi-auto and bolt), and accessories that the new definition of precision is unbelievable.

C-grunt
04-21-11, 11:18
Good topic Trident.

Ive personally always veiwed a "precision" semi auto rifle as more of a DMR type gun. It might not shoot as accurately as a good bolt gun, but it makes up for it with faster second round hits.

I would define a precision semi auto rifle as one that is purposely built to be accurate at long range. This will usually have a free float stainless barrel and a decent optic. I dont believe it needs to be a high powered optic as not all scenarios call for that, but it should have some magnification (at least 3x) to help identify targets at range.

MistWolf
04-21-11, 17:38
A precision rifle is one that reliably delivers consistent accuracy

JFArmsCo
04-21-11, 18:59
Shot the SPR today since the weather was half way decent. Last picture is 400yd target viewed at 20x

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/paintballaddict/WP_000188.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/paintballaddict/WP_000187.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/paintballaddict/WP_000185.jpg

mstennes
04-22-11, 00:02
I went with the Mk12 Mod 1 as my "Precision" rig. Its capable of 1/2 MOA when shot in a mechanical rest, but its light enough to carry in the field if needed.

I setup my 4in steel plate at 400 yards 3 days ago. We managed to have just a slight breeze and a slightly overcast day. I put 20 out of 20 75gr Hornady BTHP Match handloads on this steel plate. This was shooting off of just sand bags(front and rear).

The whole purpose of this build was to fill a role of Precision Rifle, Im working on getting 550 yards setup at home, and I'd like to see what it does at that distance.

Should be very doable, my MK12 MOD 0 hits consistantly at 650 on a 12 by 12 plate. Last time out ot was very windy, and the only misses were durning gusts over the windy condition we were shooting, funny though, they were all about a foot off, and if you compensated, when the gusts were up, I was right back on. In calm it will do 20 out of 20 shooting M262, with wind you just need to dial the windage.

mstennes
04-22-11, 00:03
Shot the SPR today since the weather was half way decent. Last picture is 400yd target viewed at 20x

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/paintballaddict/WP_000188.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/paintballaddict/WP_000187.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/paintballaddict/WP_000185.jpg

Damn, all mine is setup with now is a Leupold 2.5x8 Mark 4, with a TMR

ucrt
04-22-11, 00:43
.

Just an idea…

Maybe this is all obvious, but I think for Semi-Automatic Rifle Precision, there is a three-way triangle, kind of like a Fire Triangle, where each side has a significant effect on the other two sides of the triangle.

To me, the SARP Triangle would be:

Barrel – Long-range, medium range, close quarter, battlefield, etc.
Weight – Barrel profile, barrel length, receiver, scopes, mounts, stocks, bipods, compactness, etc.
Stamina – Chrome-Lined vs. SS, Match trigger or battle trigger, FSB or folding or no sights, fancy coatings or mil-spec, etc.

So, to me, SD/HD SARP would be some kind of light rifle that can shoot 30-rounds at a 150-yard 3” group in less than 2-minutes.
A dig-in and fight SARP needs to be very accurate with a low rate of fire with the appropriate barrel, triggers, stocks, etc, so it will have to weigh more.
And so on…

I would consider a lightweight 16” M4 that can shoot 10-shots 1.5” group in < 1-minute at a 100-yards to be an precision rifle.
So, there will be compromises on these three “sides” to reach the accuracy necessary for the given purpose for a gun.

Just an idea...

.

Smuckatelli
04-24-11, 23:33
My opinion......you asked for it.....

This is all iron sights, not scoped weapons...I'm not worried about MOA, my sniper days ended in 1990...I'm concerned with rounds in the 10 ring...

I don't consider my 6920 to be a precision rifle. I can consistantly keep it in the black out to 300 yards without too much thought. It is a tool that is there if and when I need it. This is after 21 some odd years of running various weapons in the Corps.

I consider the RRA NMA4 to be a precision rifle. I can shoot the CMP XTC better with this rifle than I could with a M-16A2 that was issued to me and I took very good care of. With the SS 1/8 barrel, two stage trigger, and NM sights it is pretty much a no brainer. RRA has a lot of hate from some people, I have no problems with that, the rifle has preformed exceptionally on CMP courses of fire for two years now.

This is the rifle that I bought for my 15 yr old daughter when she started participating in CMP events. Her being a novice to shooting; 2 months after her first shot with a firearm she was competing in CMP matches, pretty much taught me what a precision semi rifle needs to be.

A precision rifle needs to be 'user friendly,' a novice or seasoned shooter should be able to pick it up and consistantly hit within the 9 ring from 600 yards.

BTW, my now 17 yr old daughter hates the fact that she has to use a bore guide and constantly clean the bore while I just drop some USGI issued cleaning rods down the 6920.

ALCOAR
04-25-11, 00:04
There is some really fantastic replies thus far in this thread, and I must admit that not only do I see that I took my personal view of precision a bit to seriously(i.e. only thought my definition had merit and had been well formulated), but that part of the reason I started this thread was due to frustration over some of the thread/content in this sub forum...and essentially was venting to some degree. So while I still have a personal guideline and definition of precision, I know understand that I need to take into consideration that perhaps the definition of "precision" is relative to each end user and their particular experience level/application.

I really like the effort most M4C'rs put into a thread like this. It's nice that most here recognized this isn't the proverbial..who makes the best xyz pile on thread, and participation in it requires a well formulated and thought provoking reply. This is the definition so far of...there are no right or wrong replies, only substantive ones:)

Great pic by the way JW...a tack driving SPR tends to make one think of the term "precision" semi auto rifle:cool:

Jim243
04-26-11, 01:39
I believe it really depends on one's style of shooting. When it came time to purchase an AR my choices were a M4 or a Varminter. While the M4 style is neat and cool, it came down to the fact that I am basicly a sniper at heart and the 24 inch fluted HBAR, national match chamber, two stage match trigger and guaranty 1/2 MOA on the rifle was the deturming factors. So I think you are correct it is a mind set more than an equipment race. While not dressed fancy this does get the job done at less than 1/2 MOA.

Jim

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/IMG_0481.jpg

aklaunch
05-04-11, 01:59
To much wine.

ZRH
05-04-11, 04:46
This is OT for this thread, but I'll respond to it once. Just find another thread about how to shoot and bump it or start your own if you have more questions.


Today i was at the 200/300 yard range with a long time friend and long time shooter who shoots not very often at all and is not familiar with the AR platform. I let him take a spin on my rifle. At first i observed him aiming at the target with his rifle arm resting on the the bench (letting the bipod take the load)
The bipod is made for taking the load, the earth is usually more stable than your body. You shouldn't use a bipod on a bench though. They work best on the ground


I immediately thought to my self.... This is not good technique and his shots will be all over the target. I was wrong. This guy shot a five shot group tighter than i had ever done myself. And i have been shooting my ass off this year.

So i decided to give it a try!!! I actually let my hand rest on the left side of the bipod and shot a tight as hell sub MOA group myself. This is nothing new for me as i have been shooting a lot. It is just that i am far, FAR from consistent doing this. I did it again. And again another consistent tight group.
Pressing against something that is stable makes everything stable.


That being said i guess my hand up on the hand guard turns my sub MOA gun into a 2-4 MOA gun sometimes? (because of me)

Obviously off hand carbine shooting requires a solid hand on the guard for fast follow up shots. But consistent sub MOA groups????
There are hundreds of ways to shoot offhand. One of the easier ones is to learn to use a hasty sling. There is also wingshooting, slouch support, etc. You should at least read FM 3-22.9. You should also dryfire as much as possible. I still practice with a .22 bolt action to stay sharp since it's cheap to shoot 1k rounds through it.


How do the fellas and enthusiast here of this difficult sport acquire the ability to consistently tack drive? Also.... This chrome lined vs. SS barrel thing? It seems that if the gun was locked down and fired with good ammunition that it would theoretically fire the bullet close to the same hole over and over again?

Thanks for your help! We have a 600 yard range at my club that i intend on visiting very soon. i am addicted......
It's the magician, not the wand.

ColtJ
05-07-11, 22:28
In my humble opinion, "precision" should be defined by how well a marksman and his rifle can consistently place accurate shots on target within the rifles intended effective range.

Not just having a rifle with the ideal setup or parts as its useless without a good marksman.

IE: giving a novice driver a drag car and asking him to run great laps at Sebring. Last secenario is just all wrong.

I dont think there should be regulations on equipment as this is not a regulated sport but should be judged by how well the entire package works.

Shooting dot drills and tight groups show how well the marksman and his rifle work together.

It would be nice to have a few printable targets that this subforum can use at different distances to compare their setups, technique, etc... With one another. Although thats basically already done in one way or another.

ALCOAR
05-08-11, 00:18
Great Idea ColtJ....I'll see about getting us a nice Dot drill PDF printable target. That's an excellent tool for a precision AR imho. Thanks for continuing to contribute to the thread gents:)

ALCOAR
05-08-11, 21:42
Here is a nice dot drill download....I will give a go myself next time out to the range:)

http://www.impactdatabooks.com/v/vspfiles/templates/idbtemplate/images/pdfs/targetdownloads/Drills/D-21DD.pdf

Here is a Know your limitations one as well....
http://www.impactdatabooks.com/v/vspfiles/templates/idbtemplate/images/pdfs/targetdownloads/Drills/D-KYLC.pdf

ColtJ
05-09-11, 22:07
I've actually used that 21 dot drill before but it was a little hard to see so I photoshoped the rings into all black dots.

I can upload a copy for download if anyone wants it.

warriorsociologist
05-16-11, 20:20
I have two rifles I consider "precision" rigs. Both (+me behind them) are sub 0.5 MOA. For the most part though, my min. accuracy criterion is that a "precision rig" must reliably shoot 0.5 MOA or better (although, I had a FN SPR-A1 a number of years ago that was a ~0.6 MOA shooter and I still considered it in the same category). Most of my "utility rifles" are between 0.5-1.0 MOA. I generally sell off rifles that I can't get to shoot at least 1.0 MOA after a trying them with a number of different handloads.

Cameron
05-17-11, 12:35
I suppose semantically "precision" might mean something slightly different to different people, but it when we apply it to the AR15 there are some obvious commonalities.

I have found that most quality AR15 rifles today are actually a lot more accurate than most shooters. That said, with a basic application of the fundamentals most shooters can easily begin to maximize the accuracy potential of their particular setups. I don't consider myself to be an expert, but I have received good instruction in the basics and discipline myself to correctly apply the fundamentals when I shoot. When I do my job I have found that most quality ARs will yield very good results.

I recently went through the process of re-zeroing all my ARs on one day confirming that all BUIS, red dots and scopes for each of the 5 ARs had a 100M zero with my typical ammunition. The results on the 100M range proved that basically I was the biggest factor in the accuracy equation for the ARs. I found that at 100M ARs with chrome lined mil spec barrels and triggers, or stainless steel match barrels with match trigger from 10.5" to 18" with irons, red dots, or magnified optics in reality they are all capable of MOA or better.

What components help to improve that accuracy potential of a given cartridge?

Barrel and bolt. The only two components that actually touch the round will have an effect on mechanical accuracy. A well made match barrel with a correctly fitted bolt will have a positive impact on accuracy.
Trigger. A trigger that minimizes the effect of the shooter moving the rifle as the trigger is pulled.

With these components and correct application of shooter fundamentals one should be able to maximize the accuracy of a particular ammunition.

I personally look at "practical accuracy" can I make hits on the targets I need to hit in the time frame required? Will I accept less accuracy for more speed? Weight is a consideration, length is a factor. Can I use this particular setup to get the hits I need at the ranges I am likely to encounter. That takes just the "accuracy" or "precision" components and asks if it is effective.

I have found that at 100yds I can shoot a 16" match barreled carbine with a 5 power scope just as accurately as I can shoot an 18" match barreled rifle with a 14 power scope, when I am consistent in the application of the fundamentals then both rifles with quality match ammunition will shoot sub MOA even sub half minute when the external ballistic effects are minimized. I am able to hold both rifles still enough that we are seeing the accuracy potential of the ammunition in most cases.

If you want me to quickly place precise rounds from 10-300yds I would take the 16" with the 1-5 power optic, but if you want me to quickly place precise rounds on very small targets from 100-800 yards then the 18" with the 4.5-14 power optic would be a better fit, due to slightly flatter trajectory and better sight picture on the targets.

So precision for me is:
Does the rifle contain quality components that mechanically maximize that accuracy potential of the ammunition used?
Does the setup allow me to easily apply shooting fundamentals? Think stock and optic fit and trigger.
Or does it really make me work hard to get the sights on target and keep them there when the shot breaks?


My precision ARs

Daniel Defense Recce
16" LW50 stainless steel match barrel with Wylde Chamber and DD hand matched bolt
LMT 2 stage match trigger
Leupold MK4 1.5-5x20mm optic
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4132/5212936611_419872fd15_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4111/5213200762_c11dedaf73_b.jpg


Bravo Company SPR
18" BCM SS410 stainless steel match barrel with USMC SAM-R Chamber and BCM hand matched bolt
LMT 2 stage match trigger
Leupold MK4 4.5-14x50mm optic
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4151/5212936013_25d4402e14_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4149/5213201170_bcd12dc91d_b.jpg

Cameron

ALCOAR
05-17-11, 13:27
Excellent reply Cameron....I like especially how you specifically tied in your precision AR's into this particular definition since most of us are driving with AR's in a precision capacity on this forum.

This thread has made my view on this topic far less "snobbish", and has help me disconnect my own personal definition and standard with other people's definition and standards...making it clear that precision is more about personal standards than it is universal standards.

Cameron
05-17-11, 14:07
I suppose if I was thinking of a "precision standard" I would say that if I am investing in a stainless steel match barreled "precision setup" I would require that it be mechanically capable of sub MOA accuracy with match ammunition, preferably capable of shooting the match ammo of choice in 0.5 MOA under ideal conditions. With a known mechanical accuracy of 0.5 MOA, then I can forget the rig and focus on my shooting technique. I believe both the Lothar Walther LW50 barreled Recce and the BCM SS410 barreled SPR are mechanically capable of 0.5 MOA accuracy and therefore fit my "precision standard". My chrome lined mil spec carbines will regularly shoot MOA with decent ammo at 100yards and so they also meet my "precision standard" for chrome lined red dot equipped carbines.

Cameron

TehLlama
05-18-11, 02:42
My old definition was any system that could outshoot me at a particular range, but I've finally gotten good enough to outshoot my old CMMG M18 when using PPU 75grHPBT, so it was easy to justify a new purchase.

Centurion Mk12 Barreled DMR upper, Leupold 2.5-8x36mmITMR, GSSA trigger.

The upper itself is a tack driver, but the biggest improvements I've had are the trigger, and when I threw on better, larger glass (NF 3.5-15x50mm NXS), it was phenomenal, but I'm at a loss if the weight tradeoff is worth how much better I shoot this setup at 300m.

Same concept applies - good trigger, good glass, the right grip, right LOP stock - anything to minimize how the biggest variable (user) affects things, but only recently have I realized how big a limitation not having the right load is for a given rifle.

ALCOAR
08-22-11, 14:11
Personally any rifle that fulfulls the following two criteria would be my definition of a S/A precision rifle...

1.) can achieve true sub moa 10rd groups @ 100yds, even if it's only with one type of ammo.

2.) is then capable of taking that sub moa accuracy and quantifying it at longer ranges in which it distinguishes itself as not just another AR or non "precision" rifle.

The MK12 is a textbook definition of my personal precision S/A rifle.

DiabhailGadhar
08-22-11, 14:44
I was just wondering while reading this very interesting thread what particular weapon systems that the OP, others may chime in but I'm trying to avoid derailment, would consider as a precision rifle. Would the MK12 or the M110 fit into this category of "precision" or do those not meet criteria? I'm not trying to be a smart-arse I'm just curious as I intend on SLOWLY building, due to cost, a USMC M39 EMR. I think for my intended purpose it will meet my definition of "precision" just curious as to what others would think about me posting here, prior to starting my own thread. As always, thank you for your time.

BaileyMoto
08-28-11, 01:11
Shoot reliably under 1MOA.

A true .75MOA semi is absolutely 'precision' in my book...as well as many agencies and professional rifle builders.

The GAP rifle, Larue, mk12, many varmint rifles, etc all come to mind.

DWood
08-28-11, 10:02
................

shootist~
08-28-11, 13:41
One that allows "me" to hit what I can generally see with the naked eye in good light. Plus an optic that allows me to resolve those same sized targets and get hits in dim light, shade, or poor color combinations.

With me on the trigger of an auto loading .223/5.56, this is holding ~1.5 MOA for any distance up to about 700 meters under good conditions with the right ammo. The same rifle should hold under twice that figure at mid-range with multiple ammo choices, including military ball.

rogers0317
08-28-11, 17:30
Foe me, I would want it to hold at least 1 moa or better and be utterly reliable. Reliability is key. I would much rather have something that wont let me down, and hover around the 1 moa area, as opposed to something that will shoot even more accurately, but has a tendency to malfunction.

Knownot
08-29-11, 20:36
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u16/Half-Fast/Gunz/AR9162.jpg

Alaskapopo
09-08-11, 01:51
I wanted to start this thread in order to have folks who participate actively or plan to participate actively in this "Precision" sub forum weigh in with their exact thoughts and definition of what the term "Precision" actually means and translates to in the real world when shooting the said "Precision" rifles.

IMHO.....

"Precision" is not only a form of shooting with a rifle, it's a specific set of specs/parts that make up certain rifles, and it's also a mentality or mindset using a much more methodical and deliberate approach to shooting. Quite frankly, "good enough" need not apply...it's all about striving for ultimate perfection using numerous aspects in order to fulfill that perfection.

"Combat" or "practical" accuracy has NO place in the "Precision" realm, owning a colt 6920 and scoping it out for a day w. some match quality ammo to fire some groups or shoot some LR steel is completely beyond the pale of true "Precision"....Yet so many people believe that because they don't break in their CL barrel on their M4, or they wait for thousands of rounds before cleaning it, or that SS barrels are a waste, or that they didn't need a FF rail, etc., and they just shot some "precision" groups with their non "Precision" rifle they some how have merit to speak on the topic of true "precision".

This is a really niche'd sub forum, not everyone and every rifle apply....I just think it's important to draw a clear line between "precision" and "practical"...and try and keep as much "practical" as we can outta this subforum. It's completely killing this forum imho.

The "how often do I clean my barrel" thread in the General or technical AR discussion sub forums should be completely different then the "how often do I clean my match SS precision barrel" thread in this "Precision" subforum for example.

The phrase..."why use a filet mignon when a sloppy joe gets the job done" might work in the other various sub forums, however in this one it's not applicable in the least.

"Good enough" and "precision" is in my book an oxymoron.

For me I feel a semi auto precision rifle should be able to group MOA or better with match ammo for 5 shot or 10 shot groups as an average. I don't care how it does with ball as I am not going to be using that for precision work. It needs to be able to reach targets out to 600 yards and it should have an optic that allows easy use with in its cartridges range.
Pat
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/LarueStealth.jpg

NUTT
10-12-11, 12:15
Good discussion... although this is a SLOW subforum!

I'll see your precision semi-auto definition and break it down further to a "tactical" precision semi-auto.

Capable of repeatable 1 MOA shooting at the maximum effective range of the round
Capable of 1st round hits at that distance
Dependable in varied field conditions with minimum maintenance
Sturdy enough to handle the rigors of mission deployment
Not so heavy that you can't hump the thing all day long!

ALCOAR
10-12-11, 13:02
Nice definition, and yes this subforum is extremely SLOW.

I'd rather it be slow, than full of junk science and UTG precision builds:D

Pappabear
10-12-11, 13:32
Me,

18'WOA RIFLE GAS SYSTEM, SS Barrel, BCM upper, DD RAIL, BATTLE COMP, BCM LOWER, SSA TRIGGER, UBR STOCK IS DEAD TITS ON..

MY LMT MWS with the right ammo and my luey mark 4 is one fine rifle THAT FITS THE BILL IMHO as well

If I can stay MOA OUT TO 4 to 500 with 5.56 and 700-800 with 7.62, that's good enough to meet my precision terminology.

OIPactual
10-25-11, 20:45
To me, a precision rifle is a tool that will allow ME to hit what i want when i want, cold bore, hot bore, wet, dry, etc...I dont care if it is 1moa or better, it has to be able to make "combat" effective hits when i want it to under all or any of the above condidtions; but im just a low speed civ...:D

Alaskapopo
10-25-11, 20:55
To me, a precision rifle is a tool that will allow ME to hit what i want when i want, cold bore, hot bore, wet, dry, etc...I dont care if it is 1moa or better, it has to be able to make "combat" effective hits when i want it to under all or any of the above condidtions; but im just a low speed civ...:D

What exactly does that mean? How are you defining combat effective hits?
Pat

OIPactual
10-25-11, 22:18
What exactly does that mean? How are you defining combat effective hits?
Pat

sorry, should have been more clear. i would say in the 9 ring of a standard silhouette target. i didnt want to use the "combat effective" term but its been a long day and i couldnt think of a different way to say it at the time.

10102

This is just my opinion...ymmv.

Polymerhead
10-26-11, 20:39
Precision to me would be the ability to place a bullet in the desired spot every time within the given margin of error, in my mind at a range greater than 100 yds. The margin of error would be dictated by the situation, for instance the bad guy's vitals or the X-ring on a high power target. it is dictated by the shooter as much as the equipment.

I don't mean to start an argument, but it definitely pushes my buttons when I see folks touting requirements that include parts or specifications, and statements that certain rifles or people don't have enough "merit" to even speak on the topic. A national match iron sighted M16A4 may have accuracy potential to hold MOA for a couple hundred yards. Friends who shoot camp perry exhibit excellent precision in competition.

If someone wanted to set up a board called "Nightforce Scoped Free Floated Extended 18-inch Stainless Steel Barreled PRS Stocked AR15s", then there is much more latitude to exclude threads and discussion on guns and topics that don't fit the subject. Merely adding "Precision" as an attribute does little to guide the discussion, and anyone who wants to lord over topics and bring down brimstone merely because the subject does not explicitly meet their lofty definition of precision is laughable and a sad reflection of that person's small life. Not at all meant to be a reflection of the OP, but I'm sure we've all been exposed to individuals in every hobby and profession who take themselves far too seriously.

wild_wild_wes
10-31-11, 23:13
Interesting discussion!

My personal bias would preclude a rifle with an extra-long, heavy bull barrel...might be a good shooter, but not very "tactical".

The big grey area though is that AR type rifles can be very accurate, especially with a free-floated barrel, so where do you draw the line between an exceptionally good-shooting carbine, and a true precision rifle? 1 MOA might be a good cut-off...

An ACOG might get you torso-hits at most ranges, but I don't think it fits the role of a precision rifle, which in the course of its duties is also used as an observation device to extend the capabilities of the team.

What about ammo? Would you consider match-grade ammo to be an absolte need?

NUTT
11-02-11, 16:57
sorry, should have been more clear. i would say in the 9 ring of a standard silhouette target. i didnt want to use the "combat effective" term but its been a long day and i couldnt think of a different way to say it at the time.

10102

This is just my opinion...ymmv.

9 (ring)…..7-3/4” wide by 11-1/2” tall

I can hit that at 700 yards with a 5.56 Precision Auto and 1,000 yards with a 308 Precision Auto.

Close enough to 1 MOA for me.

MegademiC
11-12-11, 00:25
I would say precision is pretty much a relative term. There is combat precision, hunting precision(varies on the type of hunt), and pure precision for competitions. A long range competition shooting at 1000 yds, or a prarie dog hunter trying to shoot a 3" target at 500yds are gonna need different levels of precision than someone filling a DM role, or a 3 gun shooter. These types need high accuracy and low weight, overall a very efficient design.

I agree that slapping a scope to a CL barrel is not turn your gun into a precision tool. I would conversely say, IMO that not having an optic does not disqualify a rifle as a precision gun either.

I would consider a sub moa gun(with right ammo) a precision-capable weapon. This definition is broad, and includes all types of guns. A gun like this is not rare and will be accurate enough for most precision needs.

For ars, Id say anything designed to be more accurate than standard colt barrels would be precision, this would include a FF barrel.

BAC
11-16-11, 15:34
Good discussion... although this is a SLOW subforum!

I'll see your precision semi-auto definition and break it down further to a "tactical" precision semi-auto.

Capable of repeatable 1 MOA shooting at the maximum effective range of the round
Capable of 1st round hits at that distance
Dependable in varied field conditions with minimum maintenance
Sturdy enough to handle the rigors of mission deployment
Not so heavy that you can't hump the thing all day long!


I like that definition a lot, especially the first two points.


-B