View Full Version : Any salt water keepers here?
Belmont31R
04-20-11, 22:36
Ive got some immature FW going now but want to get into SW since it interests me much more.
Will be setting up a tank soon as I get parts. Can maybe do one major part a month so I wont have an operational tank for a while.
Just want to see if anyone here has a fish hobby besides guns...
Post your experiences, would you? I have no fish experience or hobby but have thought about it (doing SW reef tank) some day.
Right now all we have is a dozen land hermit crabs (across about 5 species), 1/2 of which have buried themselves at any one time (only a portion of those molting).
Belmont31R
04-20-11, 22:57
I have been into FW for a little bit. Not much going on since I just have a small tank. I want to get a bigger tank (55+) and can get a good local price on an aqueon 65. LFS guy said the 65 is better for SW since it allows better flow over the reef than the 55 since the 55's are narrow.
Doing this more because I always like biology, and I grew up with a couple tanks in the house and want my kids to have as many natural exposures as possible. Want to involve them when they are old enough. Nothing like a little reef in the house to teach kids science.
I figure my 65G SW setup will be ~1k minus any live rock, fish or coral. Wont add live coral until the tank is a few months up and running.
One of my best pals used to have a SW only aquarium business and I'm a religious fisherman both fresh and salt(it relates as I'm a conservation nazi, and practice 100% catch and release methods including the use of circle hooks where applicable)
Just based upon his experiences and my understanding of how much harder it is to maintain a healthy SW fish's physiology and regulate salinity....I would only go SW if you are willing to make the much greater commitment in time, resources, and money. I just hate to see exotic SW specimens esp. go tits up after a cpl. weeks because an owner got in over their heads just cause they wanted prettier and cooler looking fish.
There is a shit load of maintenance, effort, and overall TLC that goes into any quality SW setup....and while nothing is a stunning as a properly done one....it's almost a full time job to maintain clarity and fish health in them.
I disagree with Trident.
Unfortunately I used to go through hobbies like underwear. Saltwater fish tanks were one in a long line of hobbies of mine. Although owning a sw store would be lots of work, a large single tank in a home required less than 4 hours a week worth of maintenance in my experience.
I had a 90 gallon setup with live rock and coral. Lots of tangs, a ray, shark, shrimp, crabs, snails, etc.
The best decision I made was adding the crabs and snails. Kept the cleaning duties down A LOT. I would recommend doubling the filtration of your tank size. It makes the filter work less, increasing the longevity of the equipment, and reduces the maintenance load.
It was enormously expensive but at the time I had more disposable income. I would just see a cool fish and had to have it. I wasted a lot of money on fish that would have been better spent on lighting and better equipment. If you can be satisfied with a few fish, its great. For me it was a money pit, but a beautiful one. I will have another tank in the future.
thopkins22
04-21-11, 08:29
Salt water keepers. :p
http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr130/thopkins22/a21a25ce.jpg
http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr130/thopkins22/141922c9.jpg
Belmont- My brother, a full-time fire fighter, has a side business setting up and maintaining tanks(salt). He has some affiliation with Univ. of South Fl. and their Marine Biology program. He really knows his shit. If you have questions, I can give you an email address.
I disagree with Trident.
Unfortunately I used to go through hobbies like underwear. Saltwater fish tanks were one in a long line of hobbies of mine. Although owning a sw store would be lots of work, a large single tank in a home required less than 4 hours a week worth of maintenance in my experience.
I had a 90 gallon setup with live rock and coral. Lots of tangs, a ray, shark, shrimp, crabs, snails, etc.
The best decision I made was adding the crabs and snails. Kept the cleaning duties down A LOT. I would recommend doubling the filtration of your tank size. It makes the filter work less, increasing the longevity of the equipment, and reduces the maintenance load.
It was enormously expensive but at the time I had more disposable income. I would just see a cool fish and had to have it. I wasted a lot of money on fish that would have been better spent on lighting and better equipment. If you can be satisfied with a few fish, its great. For me it was a money pit, but a beautiful one. I will have another tank in the future.
I have no problem w. you disagreeing with what I said, but your above reply tends to actually agree with my reply from above.
4hrs a week compared to like 10min. a week is indeed a significant increase in the amt. of time needed to properly care for SW tanks.
Then as far as what I said about money and even "cool" looking fish...I could not have said better by myself then how you did in the above bold.
On avg. a human spends 30min a day for lunch....x7 days in a week...that's 3 1/2 hrs. So your spending more time with your SW fish tank than you are eating lunch for an entire week.
There is a commitment here that very few understand until they see first hand...by in large humans are arrogant and ignorant enough to think that we can just re create such a highly complex environment as the ocean is. I just don't ever condone watching an otherwise beautiful and perfectly healthy fish go tits up because a human wanted a pretty fish tank. If you know what your doing or have the supervision of a educated SW aquarium expert, then all is well...the fish will not be able to tell much of a diff., however if you learn on the fly, and by extension are killing some truly magnificent fishes in the process, than I think it's a damn shame.
Coming home and seeing a dead fish really really sucks. I felt bad the few times it happened. I see your point on the time issue as well. At the time it was the only hobby I was into. So the time investment seemed minimal.
Belmont31R
04-21-11, 09:33
You can potentially kill any animal as a pet/hobby/living. Cows, dogs, cats, birds, fish.
You can potentially kill any animal as a pet/hobby/living. Cows, dogs, cats, birds, fish.
Yes, but SW fish, will die from looking them wrong, some times for no reasons you can figure out, etc. Some are more sensitive then others, but none are as hardy as FW fish. I had a 125g full reef tank, which was more time and $$$ then anyone would believe unless they have had one. I wrote for some of the SW hobby mags and such, as was big into the hobby, really a lifestyle at that point...
I loved my tanks, but sold it all when I moved, and every time I think of setting another up, I remember the time, effort, $$$, heart break, etc of it.
SW tanks can be challenging, reef tanks take it to a whole other level of amazing, but costly, etc.
Bigger tanks are better as they are more stable. Get SW fish that tend to be hardy (very relative term with SW fish but some are tougher then others) dont cheap out on equipment (just like guns, you'll only end up making work for yourself and buying the good stuff later anyway).
I have not kept up with the latest greatest stuff in SW, but a large fish only tank not over crowded (a common mistake for newbie SW owners) of hardy fish, using best equipment you can get, makes for a fairly low effort tank, if you follow directions very carefully from a good web site/book on the topic.
I don't do SW even though I swore when I built my first home I would have a large SW aquarium. Two houses and 7yrs later I still have my FW tank which is an 80gal bowfront with cichlids, loaches & plecos. I've had at least one cichlid tank for about 25yrs now and really enjoy the hobby. It can be stressful at times and I become attached to my fish so it can be depressing sometimes but the majority of it is enjoyment and people love coming over to my house to watch the fish. Kids especially love to sit and watch them swim around and beg their parents to come over to my place so they can watch the fishies. Cichlids are about as close as you can get to SW as far as colors and what not so that's why I've always had a larger colorful cichlid tank. Someday I'll have a few hundred gallon SW tank but for now I'll have to make due with this:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_u5gGqJHjM6Q/TbBLBgKqMMI/AAAAAAAABc8/d-D7WAYZI4E/s1024/IMG_3198.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_u5gGqJHjM6Q/TbBLDfpxKkI/AAAAAAAABdA/p-N4tq6NNso/IMG_3201.JPG
^^^beautiful tank and fish...beyond the exotic factor, I love equally a well put together FW setup. You can always create an amazing FW setup w. FW game species if your looking for something more exotic or cooler fish...it is however significantly harder to maintain healthy bass, brim, etc. than it is to maintain healthy Oscar's let say.
I think their is a ton of truth in what Will had to say above...if you go SW, you will inevitably want to go w. a reef setup and it's truly mind pondering shit at that point...the best buddy of mine I mentioned above dropped to two juvenile Leopard sharks costing almost $5500 in an Aquarium he did in a Guthries restaurant late one afternoon...spent well into the night monitoring these sharks, finally left to get a small nap before returning when the resturant was scheduled to open...and in the 5-6 hrs. he left these two what would appear to be perfectly acclimated leopard sharks were tits up floating when he got back. That made me sick to my stomach. People just cannot understand how hard it was, and at what true eco cost it took in order for two beautiful Leopard juvenile sharks to be netted in some place like the coast of CA, then transported to some place like Ed's Pet World...then on to Guthries chicken restaurant's aquarium...then to one miserable rather short death once arriving.
^^^beautiful tank and fish...
Thanks. They're all juveniles now and if you know your cichlids that tank will be MUCH more colorful once they mature. I wish I had a better picture of how it looked before a pump failure wiped out half of my tank overnight. I had to start fresh with 2-3" fish which I stocked in separate orders to TFD Fish in Ohio. In a few more months this will be a good looking fish tank. The tank itself I bought a while back for next to nothing. A buddy and I cleaned it up, painted the back black and then refinished the stand and canopy. It was a bit of a process but it looks night and day better now and was well worth the effort. I had someone make me an offer as it sat in my garage waiting to be set up that would have netted me $1k but I didn't want to sell it as I have wanted a bowfront for a couple decades now and I finally got around to getting one. It turned out great and we get lots of compliments from even non-fish people so I guess mission accomplished.
Being from Maui I had a huge tank in front of my place :)
I dont like taking reef fish but ok with farm raised varieties
My buddy used to propegate corals and giant SP clams and such he had a insane setup I mean insane
He had 3 - 5000 gallon tanks :)
Had a greenhouse built for them put in tropucal plants a hot tub and his tanks were truly amazing and yes he was very wealthy
Being a diver I dont see to many tanks done to look natural a few that do are very cool
I prefer sw tanks that are mostly live corals lots of hiding spots good variety of cleaners etc... Crawly critters and such
You can potentially kill any animal as a pet/hobby/living. Cows, dogs, cats, birds, fish.
My wife is the grim reaper of pets. Don't ask me how.
Ok as for a 55+ gallon SW tank. IMO, unless you have the coin for someone to maintain it for you, I say just not no, but oh hell no. I freely admit that they are gorgeous and give me vibes of tranquility. and I get get the desire for one every now and then. Then I remember the PITA that was the 75 gallon custom FW tank my F-I-L "gave" us years ago. He gave it to us because he was tired of maintaining it. Just too much work and money Vs. enjoyment for me at least. I can only imagine the aneurysm that a SW tank would bring.
Belmont31R
04-21-11, 14:34
The maintenance doesn't bother me. I work from home so Im home most of the day anyways. I grew up with horses and over 120 rabbits (my mom showed them and sold them). My parents also did competitive horse shows with expensive arabians and whatnot.
I do think people get burned out on it. Lots of people do this for 5-10 years and then quit. I will be perfectly fine going the rest of my life without cleaning out another horse stall.....and seeing a 50k horse die of collick....
I used to have a couple reef aquariums. Honestly they are great. Beautiful and relaxing. They are a lot of work to set up but honestly if you set them up right they are minimal work to keep going.
Here are the important parts. Get a tank with an overflow. Fresh water tanks use a filter. Salt water tanks are their own filter. You want a show tank with an overflow built in. Then underneath the stand you want a similar sized tank split into sections This tank is full of sand and rock just like the main tank. But it is only to grow pods and microorganisms in. Although if you are not careful you can end up with a fish or two in there. I still have literal nightmares about it.
Rock is also extremely important. Good solid live rock will make your tank flourish. Lighting is critical as well. The fish, rock and especially the coral all need light. Just a few years ago this meant expensive, hot and inefficient Metal Halide lamps. They looked great but man were they ever bad for your electric bill. Now we have T5 and LED lights that do even better at a fraction of the cost.
Oh and finally you must have sand. Not gravel, not rough sand. You need Reef grade sugar fine sand.
Check out http://www.reefcentral.com/
It is kind of the M4C of the Saltwater world
Here are a couple photos I was able to find of one of my old tanks. I have lost most of them sadly.
They show a couple of stages of the process. And the interest that cats have for fish. LOL.
http://web.me.com/kwelz/Pictures/sw1.jpg
http://web.me.com/kwelz/Pictures/sw2.jpg
http://web.me.com/kwelz/Pictures/sw3.jpg
http://web.me.com/kwelz/Pictures/sw4.jpg
Belmont31R
04-21-11, 21:25
Thanks. If anyone hasn't noticed Ive not been posting here much at all since I've been reading MFF (I see Jer posts there, too) and ReefCentral.com.
I really want to do a mid size SW but Im basically going to have to buy 1-2 major parts a month for a few months because the initial setup is spendy. The hardest part right now is the sump portion. I can read all day but Im a visual learner not a reader. Got a list of questions to go with tomorrow to my LFS and see if they can show me in person.
Since I want to do it right the first time I want to put the tank in our living room but but up against the kitchen so I can go through the wall, and get a water + disposal line. Tie in a DI/RO unit from the kitchen sink supply and the disposal for that down the sink drain line so I have good water right there. Put the RO/DI exit line into the sump system with a Apex controller so no manual water changes, and it can do it 24/7.
I figure the more automated the system is the less time I have to dink around with thinks. Id rather spend double the setup cost to have an almost all automated system than a cheaper complete manual I have to spend a lot of time and physical strength doing. I can since Im home almost all day but I think it would make a more stable setup.
I got a list of questions to go with tomorrow. I went yesterday to look over things and this stores stock & pricing. Obviously things are cheaper over the net but hopefully they can work with me on that if I become a repeat customer. All my FW stuff is petco so far...lmao. This store Im going to is a good drive for me so....
The thing Im confused on is lighting, and why a light can cost $400+. I know SW needs good light but ****.
The thing Im confused on is lighting, and why a light can cost $400+. I know SW needs good light but ****.
Clean light in the right spectrum is critical. Also factor that you need to replace the bulbs every 6-9 months. If you dont' have good lighting you will get bad algae growth.
Belmont31R
04-21-11, 21:37
Yeah I know its just hard to bite the bullet on several hundred dollars for lights.
Have you used any LED lights?
They dont' put out the proper light for Coral growth. However they provide great secondary and night illumination which is helpful in long term livestock health.
Belmont31R
04-21-11, 22:05
What would you put on a 36" wide tank?
I think I am going to go with the aqueon 65G which has good front to back width for good water flow.
Yesterday the LFS guy had a light setup that was around 200, and said it would be the cheapest way to go while still getting good light for a FOWLR. I dont mind paying more, though. Just dont want to pay 500 for a light setup when a 300-400 one will work as good or better.
The tank you see above is a 36" tank. it was a 65 gallon tall tank just like you are looking at. You have a number of options. I would start with something simple. Clownfish are fairly hardy and attractive but they need to be paired up. I suggest a couple very young ones so they can sex (They are born neither and the largest becomes female)
You can try some other types of damsels that may be a bit more hardy but they are also a bit more aggressive. Remember that the total load of the aquarium will include corals and the entire thing is a balance. But once you have that balance the system comes close to sustaining itself.
I suggest no more than 4 or 5 fish and a number of soft coral. An anemone is a good idea since Clownfish may host in it. I actually had a mated pair that adopted an anemone and spawned. None of the eggs hatched but it was still pretty cool...
Damn. I want to get a tank again now. :(
I spent last winter working for a friend at his saltwater store in central WA (Mosses Lake) and you need to decide what you want, SW fish, Reef aquarium, or a mix of each. The an-enemies, corral, crabs, snails and all for balance takes a lot of research. You don't just dive (No Pun Intended) into it. What he learned is there is a lot of "Advice" out there on the errornet, and it takes some wading thru to get it right. Then there are certain fish that only get along with others. Some can be around corrals, some an-enemies, etc. We used to tell people to come back and look a lot, ask questions, and remember, you HAVE TO LET A NEW TANK STABILIZE BEFORE PUTTING ANYTHING IN IT. You really need to watch your ph, salt, and others. Reef tanks will require a little stronger salt than fish only. Your biggest expense will be in your setup. Tank, sand, rock, Some rock goes as high as $10 LB. A good skimmer will run quite a few $s too. Do it right the first time. If you aren't sure about it, there is a company that makes a "Bio-Cube" that has a filter, lights, (Both day and lunar) pump, and you just add water (Osmoses filtered is best and some stores will sell it by the gal/5gal) sand, salt, and let stabilize, which could take 2 weeks. The heater/temp can be critical too. Reef tanks are my favorite ones. You will always run the risk of hitchhikers too, from new fish, to sand, and there are different kinds of sand also. A good store that is into fish/salt only can test your water for you until you get that part down too. A lot of people would come in and say they find themselves spending more time watching the tank than watching TV. At night when you can turn of the lights and have "Lunar" light on, you will see life you never see in the daylight. LED lights are now the way to go, the "Halights" are very expensive and can need those 250-300 watt bulbs replaced yearly and that really adds up. The LED's usually only use one watt per bulb, so 60 bulbs only use 60 watts, much cheeper and no heat to change the water temp up and down too. Ordering fish off the internet can be done, BUT we had people come in and say they will never do that again.
If I had the room, I would have a 125 gal tank, but not the room in a rental. Remember, a taller tank is harder to reach the bottom when maintenance or ? requires, found out the hard way.
Good luck in your search, this hobby will GROW on you big time.
HAVE TO LET A NEW TANK STABILIZE BEFORE PUTTING ANYTHING IN IT.
This can not be emphasized enough. A lot of people make the mistake of just letting a tank run for a long time without anything in it and thinking that it will stabilize. Then they dump everything in it. This is bad. Very bad.
You need to do something to kick start the process. Some live rock is great. I have even seen people use a dead shrimp or similar. But you have to get the process started and let it stabilize. Then when you add stuff you need to do it slowly.
A few lbs of live rock. Then a few more. Finally a couple fish. Etc. Slow and steady, letting the tank adjust with each addition. Like I have said before. It is all a balance.
Oh and watch out for Mantis Shrimp. :eek:
Every time you add "Something New" to the tank, (Live) you need to leave that in the bag and water you brought it home in and just let it float in the tank for a while to let it "Acclimate", then add a little water from your tank, let stabilize for another while, then a little more water and so on until it has acclimated to your water and temp. sometimes it may take 45 min, but you can have a higher survival rate. Fish and plants like this can stress and die from to quick or no acclimation, I've seen it. Don't let these things all scare you, just pay attention and it will be a LOT of fun. Salt water is like an eco system, there will be animals that you buy that are there to clean up other "Debris" and such to help maintain a healthy tank. Salt water just has so much more color and variety to it and makes it all the more worth it. Ever notice how some Dr. Offices are getting tanks like this in their waiting rooms? Yah thats for patient "Relaxation".
Live rock is just that too, it has living things on it, and needs to acclimate some too. Just try to keep it from being exposed to air for to long. Never let it dry out. Fuji rock is cool, it cost, If they can get it in stock.
Belmont31R
04-22-11, 19:20
Yeah I've been doing tons of reading. There is one great thread today on reefcentral that was over 100 pages long, and I was on the computer all day reading it. Lots of great advice on just about everything. This guy had his tank going for over a year before adding any coral.
I understand most of the basics but the exact setup with all the different models is pretty intimidating. Im trying to figure out a sump system, and doing some more measuring of where a tank will go. I figured on a 90 gal to fit the space I want. I hardest part is going to be getting the RODI water system going from my sink feed line to the RODI unit to a tank, other tank for pre mixing, and then plumbing the sump & and adding the right parts. I want as painless as system as possible, and finding the right balance is going to be a learning experience. No issues with waiting things out to make sure everything stays healthy. The 90 gal is basically the same height and width as the 65 gallon but a foot longer, and will fill the space I want it in a bit better. Also bigger is better....:p
And yeah I read a few threads today about some nasty hitch hikers on live rock. The big thread I read today the guy used clean rock (nothing living), and then attached to coral fragments to that. Seems like a decent way to go to minimize the chance of nasty hitchers on live rock. Ive read some people had to complete start over due to their tank getting infestations on things from the LR.
Other thing is the stand. I don't want a cheesy looking wood one. Im going to see about having someone frabricate a metal one, and use a skirt around it to hide the sump below. Use nautical/rigging type rope to hold up the skirt, and have a seamstress make the skirt from sail material or something. Obviously Ill make sure the stand is overbuilt so there's no issues, and get it coated in a nice marine color.
A good stand is a good idea. But keep one important detail in mind. Saltwater will destroy almost any metal. Aluminum is your best bet.
Belmont31R
04-22-11, 19:53
Yeah I would be sure to get it coated in something that will last a long time.
Just not into the painted plywood and 2x6 thing....:p
Alumuniminum, (shame on me) will corrode too. so will stainless steel. Your dealing with a "Synthetic" salt, and it will creep all over stuff. Powder Cote will be your friend here. Just make sure you have check valves in place for your sump, so as not to accidentally drain the tank. Also making your frame, make sure you can easily get your sump out in it breaks and needs to be replaced. This has been known to happen. Your going to love SW!
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