View Full Version : Stock options for 20" SPS Tactical (.308)
NavyDavy55
04-21-11, 00:55
I have the 20" SPS Tactical (.308) with a rubber Hogue stock. I'm very new to precision shooting but read a lot about the stock flexing. So I want to upgrade my stock.
I'm looking at the Bell and Carlson Medalist Light Tactical Rifle Stock Remington 700 BDL Short Action with Aluminum Bedding Block System Varmint Barrel Channel Synthetic Black, and the H-S Precision Pro-Series Rifle Stock Remington 700 BDL Short Action Police Sniper Varmint Barrel Channel Synthetic Black.
Can anyone tell me anything about these two stocks?
They're both under $300.
Will either make much difference to a new shooter?
Thanks.
How does your rifle shoot with the stock it has?
Gutshot John
04-21-11, 09:47
How does your rifle shoot with the stock it has?
Bingo.
It's one of those things that gets bandied about the gun forums and repeated as gospel but no one has actually quantified it in any meaningful way.
A random gun forum junkie sees the forestock flex (slightly), assume it must be touching the barrel and accordingly must have a profound harmonic effect, they can't hit their target (because they're new shooters) and so assume it's the stock and not them. This tidbit of "wisdom" gets repeated online until it becomes the worst piece of junk ever to be foisted on the public. This trend isn't even specific to the Hogue/SPS stock.
The stock doesn't flex that much, I've tried it, I've played with it and I can still slide a dollar bill between the barrel and the stock. It may appear to be touching (slightly) but it isn't and even if it was the effect would be so minimal as to be non-existant for all practical purposes.
Using the Hogue stock at a sniper course I was able to hit at 1000 yards without difficulty. Ammo selection, optic, training play an exponentially greater role. Rule out those variables first.
If you want a nicer stock because you want a nicer stock, it fits you better or has some other feature you want...knock yourself out. For the new shooter any difference in accuracy would be non-existant and for the more experienced shooter I doubt there would be a $300 improvement.
When you've shot it a bunch, mastered the principles of precision shooting, and can clearly quantify/identify the stock's (as opposed to your) shortcomings. Then you can invest the $300.
The only stock I am considering is the XLR Industries. In the meantime, I have learned a lot about bedding my cheap plastic stock, and I highly recommend you do so as well. It only costs $50, time and patience...all well worth the investment. First, read Page 1 of this thread:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1167022&nt=10&page=1
Now you know what to do generally. Since you have a Hogue, read this:
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Resources/Articles/Bedding+a+Rifle+With+MatchGrade+Bedding+Compound.html
Now get some DevCon 10110 and go for it!
ETA: it is much easier than you may think. Even on a $300 stock, I think bedding is a Good Thing, so worst case scenario, you learn an important skill and buy a new stock later. You don't really have to remove the trigger, either, but removing the scope and one piece base (if you have one) is an easy worthwhile step. Feel free to post here other questions, and be sure to post your results!
Polymerhead
04-21-11, 19:54
The Light Tactical is nice. I like the look and it's really solid.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/Polymerhead/Rem7007-16-09.jpg
This is on a 26" SPS Varmint, but you get the idea. A lot of my PD hunting buddies have the HS precision stock and it's really nice too. If they cost the same, I'd probably get the HS but I found the B&C for like $150 cheaper somewhere so I went that route.
Take it from someone who spent money a B&C stock. Just shoot the snot out of your rifle with the Hogue. Save your $300.
The B&C is a "nicer" stock than the plastic Hogue, but it won't make a noticeable difference in the way your rifle shoots, functions, or feels.
After getting some face time with your Hogue, let ergonomics and function drive your stock selection... not just urge to replace original equipment.
Eventually, when you end up spending $1000 on a Manners or McMillan and Badger Ordnance bottom metal, you'll be glad you didn't waste $300 on a B&C that isn't much of an "upgrade" from your Hogue.
NavyDavy55
04-21-11, 23:21
Thanks for all the honest advice.
I think I'll save my money and just buy more ammo and targets.
I shoot now using bags from a bench.
I do want to put on a bipod and shoot prone.
BTW, the gun shoots better than I do.
If your shooting from bags, you should be fine. The only time I was able to get my old houge stock to flex up into the barrel was when I preloaded the crap out of my bi-pod.
I did end up replacing it with a choate tactical stock because I got a really good deal on it, and it fits me like 10 times better.
B&C light tactical
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/recon762wt/DSCN0802.jpg
Part I
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=76313
Part II
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=76314
Part III
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=76316
I spent just under $300 putting this stock together. I have owned McMillian's, and for the money you are better off going with the B&C on a "Stock" SPS 20". If it was a higher end build I would say go with the McM right off the bat, but if you plan on just changing the stock the B&C is a much more prudent purchase.
I am replacing the HS Precision on my LTR with a Manners MCS-T
There's really nothing wrong with the HS, the gun shoots .5" at 300 yards. Just like the ergonomics of the MCS-T
There's really nothing wrong with the HS, the gun shoots .5" at 300 yards.
Your LTR shoots <0.17 MOA at 300 yards?!
Gutshot John
04-22-11, 15:06
Your LTR shoots <0.17 MOA at 300 yards?!
I'm guessing he meant 5.0" or 0.5' (6" or 2moa)
If my rifle shot <0.17 MOA I'd be leaving that sucker in its current configuration.
A guy behind the gun store counter told me he shot 1/2" at 200 with his new LMT 308. What can you say?
pointblank4445
04-23-11, 07:25
A guy behind the gun store counter told me......
There should be a book with this as the title. Or perhaps something like:
"A Guy Behind the Gun Store Counter Told Me......."
(A compilation of fantasies, lies and other inconceivable bullshit)
I should clarify that is with carefully worked up handloads
5 shots that can be completely covered with a dime at 100 yards
If your shooting from bags, you should be fine. The only time I was able to get my old houge stock to flex up into the barrel was when I preloaded the crap out of my bi-pod.
This is what I've kinda observed. I can push the front of the stock to where it'll touch the barrel... so I've opted to shoot off bags only.
If I keep my pack close to the receiver, I can't see it being a problem.
This is what I've kinda observed. I can push the front of the stock to where it'll touch the barrel... so I've opted to shoot off bags only.
If I keep my pack close to the receiver, I can't see it being a problem.
I stiffened the forend with MarineTex, relieved to plenty of gap, and that problem went away. A less expensive option would be 2 part epoxy from a hobby shop.
So did you notice accuracy issues or just that it touched the barrel?
Sorry I can't tell you scientifically, since I added weight to the buttstock at the same time (also epoxied in a side swivel and modded the grip). Accuracy did improve, but I can't say whether it was only due to the forend stiffening or the ergo improvement as well. I use a 13-25" Harris for hunting in the high desert foothills, so that further diminishes the scientific control, in comparison with using a 6-9 for example.
ETA: if you were asking if I noticed diminished accuracy with the bipod versus off the bags, I also can't give you a scientific answer, since it had only 200 rounds or so through the new factory barrel when I bedded, so it was still breaking in. I knew the stock would need stiffening or replacement, so not worth testing before and after, to me.
chasetopher
06-14-11, 20:10
Really like the Epoxy idea, wish I had though of that.
Shot mine for a year and a half before I noticed on very warm days the stock flexing enough to touch. I too had read about the stock flexing and had kept a very close eye on it. Thought I had gotten lucky and ended up with a stiffer stock until the 90+ degree range day. I ended up going the B&C light tactical route.
Can honestly say that I haven't been able to beat my previous best group with the replacement stock yet but I thoroughly enjoy working up various hand loads. The factory over mould will support 1/2" 100yd groups, even with out handloads(think Federal GMM), which is really more thank anyone can ask of a $500-600 rifle
Sorry I can't tell you scientifically
No problem. I can see the potential... just curious to know if you had specific issues.
My SPS tactical is more accurate than I am with the factory stock. It does flex some, and if I had a bipod mounted that might be a problem but I only shoot it from bags.
AmericanGunWorks
08-07-11, 00:23
Funny enough I have a B&C Medalist Tactical fully adjustable stock and I'm about to pull it off and swap in a hogue since its too darn heavy.
Finally got my 500 yard dope on this monster Saturday afternoon.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/Rem700tps.jpg?t=1312810661
AZ-Renegade
08-08-11, 11:47
Nice looking setup Mark! What rings and base did you go with?
I'm waiting on a bore guide so that I can break in the barrel on my AAC-SD 700.
I'm waiting on a bore guide so that I can break in the barrel on my AAC-SD 700.
:no:
Quit reading magazines and forums that preach useless rituals and go shoot.
Nice looking setup Mark! What rings and base did you go with?
I'm waiting on a bore guide so that I can break in the barrel on my AAC-SD 700.
I have the Warne Base and TPS Steel "W" 30mm Low Rings. I bought low and Med, but sent the Med back to brownells. Note how much comb I still need... even with the Low rings.
I agree with orkan... just shoot the rifle. ;)
Damn, I was fixing to sacrifice a few kittens when I broke it in too....:cray:
Well, shooting some cats is always fun... but cleaning a new gun more than once before shooting 50 or more rounds through it is about as useful as buying a new car and washing it every mile for the first 20 miles.
edit: I see the forum is still broken.
AZ-Renegade
08-08-11, 12:28
I have read both opinions on the matter. This 700 being my first precision rifle I was going to break her in to err on the side of caution/superstition but.....
I may have a trip to the range in my future.
No felines were harmed during the writing of this post.
AZ-Renegade
08-08-11, 13:06
:no:
Quit reading magazines and forums that preach useless rituals and go shoot.
Damn, I was fixing to sacrifice a few kittens when I broke it in too....:cray:
If you read the packaging, Warne also recommends medium for their rings where low work just fine. Odd.
If you read the packaging, Warne also recommends medium for their rings where low work just fine. Odd.
That is odd. I mean... my Low rings have my objective bell well off of the barrel.
Just eyeballing it and you'd guess they were medium rings.
dieselgeek
08-08-11, 21:55
I feel like my AICS has made a big difference, but I also got it for many of the features it has.
That is odd. I mean... my Low rings have my objective bell well off of the barrel.
Scope rings are not standardized as to descriptive name or height measurement. For example:
Badger 30 mm standard (the lowest they have) = 0.823"
Seekins 30 mm low = 0.820"
Warne 30 mm low = 0.250"
Badger standard and Seekins low are nearly the same height, but Warne low is much different. How can that be? It is because they measure different things.
My 4-16x50 PST has plenty of clearance on my R700P with the Badger standard (low) rings. But the outside diameter of the objective bell is not necessarily the same from manufacturer to manufacturer, and it is the outside diameter that matters when mounting a scope.
Formula for correct ring height: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1433025#Post1433025
Scope rings are not standardized as to descriptive name or height measurement.
Good point.
I have seekins base and rings ordered. 1 inch low rings and I am hoping I can get my 6.5x20-50 Ziess Conquest Atop my rem 700 5R. Mark and I were messing with it last night, looked like we would be fine, but you can't really tell till....Friday when they get here.
Alaskapopo
08-10-11, 22:55
Bingo.
It's one of those things that gets bandied about the gun forums and repeated as gospel but no one has actually quantified it in any meaningful way.
A random gun forum junkie sees the forestock flex (slightly), assume it must be touching the barrel and accordingly must have a profound harmonic effect, they can't hit their target (because they're new shooters) and so assume it's the stock and not them. This tidbit of "wisdom" gets repeated online until it becomes the worst piece of junk ever to be foisted on the public. This trend isn't even specific to the Hogue/SPS stock.
The stock doesn't flex that much, I've tried it, I've played with it and I can still slide a dollar bill between the barrel and the stock. It may appear to be touching (slightly) but it isn't and even if it was the effect would be so minimal as to be non-existant for all practical purposes.
Using the Hogue stock at a sniper course I was able to hit at 1000 yards without difficulty. Ammo selection, optic, training play an exponentially greater role. Rule out those variables first.
If you want a nicer stock because you want a nicer stock, it fits you better or has some other feature you want...knock yourself out. For the new shooter any difference in accuracy would be non-existant and for the more experienced shooter I doubt there would be a $300 improvement.
When you've shot it a bunch, mastered the principles of precision shooting, and can clearly quantify/identify the stock's (as opposed to your) shortcomings. Then you can invest the $300.
I have had fairly good luck with my stock hogue stock to date but I shoot off a bag and have not used my bi pod. I like the weight and feel of the Hogue. Wish there was a way to make the Hogue rigid. I really don't want my gun to weigh a ton. I went through a basic sniper course back in 07 with a GAP AR10 I had that had a 5.5-22 power Nightforce on it and it was a heavy beast. I was dying on the runs and low crawls we had to do with our rifles. My gun weight at least a third more than all the bolts in the class.
pat
I went through a basic sniper course back in 07 with a GAP AR10 I had that had a 5.5-22 power Nightforce on it and it was a heavy beast. I was dying on the runs and low crawls we had to do with our rifles. My gun weight at least a third more than all the bolts in the class.
I had to laugh when I read this. My R700P is wearing a McMillan adjustable A5 stock and it is indeed a heavy beast. There is no way I would want to be running and gunning all day long with it.
Wish there was a way to make the Hogue rigid. I really don't want my gun to weigh a ton.
pat
Here ya go...just swap DevCon 10110 or MarineTex for the Aussie specific epoxy.
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Resources/Articles/Bedding+a+Rifle+With+MatchGrade+Bedding+Compound.html
Oh, sorry, here's the stiffening link: http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Resources/Articles/MatchGrade+Synthetic+Stock+Stabilizer.html
i have the SPS AAC-SD as well. just swapped out the DMS scope from my AR while saving for a good scope. with a front and rear bag, i shot 13/16" at 200 yards with winchester 150gr SP ammo in the grey box from walmart. this was done in rounds 31-33 with no cleaning or break in period.
hopefully ill be able to keep that up with a better scope and maybe a stiffer stock down the road. right now its slopped together to make it usable this deer season.
I swapped out my Hogue for a Manners T4. The difference was about a 1/8 to 3/16 MOA's worth.
Maybe on paper... but the overall feel and confidence gained is priceless! ;)
I have the HS Precision stock on my XCR but bedded the tang and captured the lug and front bedding block. I do this to every stock I have and would try it on the Hogue.
The gun shot well as issued but I always felt it could do better. Now I see it's me who needs work. A good bedding job is essential on any stock. A 200 yard group I fired this morning after bedding it last week.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v374/TOM64/308200yds002.jpg
Maybe on paper... but the overall feel and confidence gained is priceless! ;)
Man, is it! Pappabear got his 700 which has an HS stock on it. I'm definitely upgrading in a month or so.
Pulled the trigger on an HS Police stock.
Crappy Cell pics....
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/0818111454.jpg
Marks on the bottom of the barrel where the foremost part of the stock was touching the barrel. :rolleyes:
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/0818111459.jpg
Good stock on the right. There's no comparison in the quality.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/0818111502.jpg
Now get that sucker milled out and a good bedding job and you'll really be happy. :)
I try to tell people how shitty the hogue stocks are... but no one seems to listen until they find it for themselves.
I try to tell people how shitty the hogue stocks are... but no one seems to listen until they find it for themselves.
Not to mention that when I went to check the Allen wrench size on the front action bolt with the Hogue... it felt like it was at about 20 in/lb of tightness AT MOST. :rolleyes:
The Tang screw felt ok... but I have to think that I only have upside potential with a good stock that is torqued properly.
AZ-Renegade
08-19-11, 12:15
markm,
Where did you pick up the stock?
I'm thinking about upgrading to an H-S Precision M24 or a Bell and Carlson M40.
I got it from Brownells. If you don't already have it... change your account to an LE and it's like $20 or $30 cheaper. Mine was 312 delivered USPS priority.
You need to get out shooting with us soon!
AZ-Renegade
08-19-11, 13:11
I'm all for it! Shot mine [without break in] last weekend. :dance3:
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