View Full Version : Always wanted one of those Magpul lowers...?
well now you can get one.
http://soldiersystems.net/2011/04/21/ar15-com-billet-lower-recievers/
No thanks... I'll stick with an Ambidextrous Mega Machine one. No way on God's green Earth that I'd see a penny of my hard earned cash go to TOS.
It would be a hansome lower if it didn't have that logo on it.
They'll sell truckloads to the folks on TOS.
Scoby
So they will be available to the peasants at a later date. I think not. They can blow me.
vicious_cb
04-21-11, 04:57
Our Price :: $821.46
Yeah right :laugh:
SWATcop556
04-21-11, 05:19
Meh. Standard lowers work just fine for me. I've had a chance to finger bang the KAC lowers and I think I'm going to start migrating over to those as funds allow.
justin_247
04-21-11, 05:41
The new Mega billet lowers have ambidextrous bolt releases and you can purchase them along with a Norgon ambi-catch for far cheaper than what you're going to pay for that. I'll pass.
Even better is the KAC lower.
And even better than all of those is the soon-to-be-released AXTS AX556, which is fully ambidextrous.
Wow, I just saw that. Well they will probably sell quite a few.......
Yeah right :laugh:
Army Chief
04-21-11, 05:58
I've got to hand it to ARFCOM for buying the rights and getting these into production, but I still think that the the day of the Art Deco billet lower has largely come and gone; in fact, I just sold my Magpul MPLA lower.
Make no mistake, these are very nice units, but those of us who pursued them for the ambi capabilities have long since discovered that there are now some excellent alternatives on the market -- including the KAC, which remains a personal favorite.
AC
Nope, and at $900 they simply reenforced my lack of interest.
he bolt catch/release assemblies both use a threaded pin
It uses non standard parts? Big selling point there...
Yeah right :laugh:
Guys, I think you're over reacting on the price. You can pick up a stripped barfcom lower for the intro price of $125. And when I say stripped I mean everything, including your dignity.
wetidlerjr
04-21-11, 07:12
I feel a disturbance in the Force...:sarcastic:
thopkins22
04-21-11, 07:13
It uses non standard parts? Big selling point there...
Not really the point of the thread...but literally every single ambidextrous lower uses non standard parts. I mean, think about it. ;)
The price, lack of metallurgical awesomeness(it's billet,) and the ar15.com tag are the drawbacks here. Proprietary parts are just something you will have to accept if you want some of the cool features it does offer.
I bet the fit and finish with these are PERFECT! :sarcastic:
Whiskey_Bravo
04-21-11, 07:27
Nope, and at $900 they simply reenforced my lack of interest.
This. Almost $900 for a lower that advertises that site isn't going to happen.
So they will be available to the peasants at a later date. I think not. They can blow me.
For $821 that lower better come with a BJ
Yowza! Well that certainly drove home the fact that I will never own one of those. I'm sure they will sell quite a few to the nut swingers over there. No way in hell you'd see me spend $800+ on a lower with that name pastered on the side of it.
They bought the rights to the Magpul Billet lower design. Now it's too late. Noveske's overbred lower is a real forging. They'll still sell some to those morons who drive around with Bolt Face Logos on their cars.
I mean... they've got goobers who Pay like $500 to be life members over there!
Always wanted one of those Magpul lowers...?
No.
I once had a POF ambi(long sold, not for me...) and the right side bolt release bears a striking resemblance...
For $821 that lower better come with a BJ
....from Scarlett Johansson.
The comments on that page are ****ing hilarious!
....from Scarlett Johansson.
The comments on that page are ****ing hilarious!
I thought it was Eliza Dushku?.....either way, I'll take one! :D
Oooh, I hope the engraving is deep enough to hold my crayon shavings!
And is there an upper available with pre cut soft-side velcro for the case deflector?
Woot!
Guys, I think you're over reacting on the price. You can pick up a stripped barfcom lower for the intro price of $125. And when I say stripped I mean everything, including your dignity.
Awesome.
Agreed with all responses. KAC or the ATX is the way to go.
So the same people who won't pay $100 more to get a BCM over a DPMS are going to pay almost $900 for that....
Austin_101
04-21-11, 09:20
No Thanks!! I'll stick with the BCM lower I got from G&R for 1/2 the price. Besides I have more faith in BCM's quality than I ever would in some knock off.
wetidlerjr
04-21-11, 09:20
They bought the rights to the Magpul Billet lower design. Now it's too late. Noveske's overbred lower is a real forging. They'll still sell some to those morons who drive around with Bolt Face Logos on their cars.
I mean... they've got goobers who Pay like $500 to be life members over there!
Actually, it's $650 now but I paid $300. ;)
Oooh, I hope the engraving is deep enough to hold my crayon shavings!
That is a critical feature. I'm sure they have that covered!
Cincinnatus
04-21-11, 09:24
Oooh, I hope the engraving is deep enough to hold my crayon shavings!
And is there an upper available with pre cut soft-side velcro for the case deflector?
Woot!
And a certificate of being a female-hygiene product one might use on a summer's eve, and the bag it came in. :)
scoutfsu99
04-21-11, 09:31
Besides the ridiculous price and silly logos.....what's the problem with the lower? I get that some people don't need/like the features but it looks like a good lower with some quality parts.
Cincinnatus
04-21-11, 09:35
Besides the ridiculous price and silly logos.....what's the problem with the lower? I get that some people don't need/like the features but it looks like a good lower with some quality parts.
For one thing, it's billet, and having an ARFCOM logo on it means you might as well have a lower with a Mattel or Barbie imprint--means nothing for functionality, but can be rather embarassing in certain company, like having your buddies discover you wear pink, frilly swim-trunks or something.:laugh:
That being said, one could certainly overlook these things in light of the sound design--again other than it being billett.
It makes you wonder what they do with all that money they get from those suckers.
For one thing, it's billet, and having an ARFCOM logo on it means you might as well have a lower with a Mattel or Barbie imprint--means nothing for functionality, but can be rather embarassing in certain company, like having your buddies discover you wear pink, frilly swim-trunks or something.:laugh:
That being said, one could certainly overlook these things in light of the sound design--again other than it being billett.
To expound upon my good friend winfield's view....the new kiddie site lowers are comparable to riding your sister's Yamaha pink Razz scooter at midnight with the throttle body tapped, doing 31mph, screaming out.."Money ain't a thing"....it's fun as hell til your buddies or another homo sapien catches you on that pink ghey rocketship. ultimately you cannot explain a certain type of "ghey" away...of which riding pink mopeds and packing barfcom labeled lowers fall under. YOU RIDE AT YOUR OWN RISK:D
What an absolute tragedy the "magpul" lower has become...honestly, it's f**king dead w. that official short bus rider logo on it. Hearing that AC sold his makes it even worse....I actually have to commend his move now, the price will surely drop because of this. The kiddie site ruined AR history in a small way imho...taking a concept and image of Noveske and Magpul's finest collaboration and ending with an appalling arfcom logo'd lower is certainly the death of something that once was a very neat and special item at least for myself.
....from Scarlett Johansson.
The comments on that page are ****ing hilarious!
I thought it was Eliza Dushku?.....either way, I'll take one! :D
At that price it better come with one from each!
And a certificate of being a female-hygiene product one might use on a summer's eve, and the bag it came in. :)
Now you sir have a way with words. Hahahaha, that was what I needed to get my day going in the right direction.
ForTehNguyen
04-21-11, 10:28
Yall do realize it comes with a geissele trigger in that price as well. I took that 821 price, subtracted everything to see how much the lower itself costs and it was about 360ish
Another bloated billet receiver.
I just don't understand this. Why does someone want a lower that has more material?
If you need ambi, then you can get a KAC lower.
ForTehNguyen
04-21-11, 10:53
Was the magpul receiver forged? Forging isn't economical for low number runs, forging dies are very expensive. Forging is great for churning out high numbers of standard design. This ain't a standard design hence the billet. Even KAC Ambi lowers are billet. Billet allows you to make custom setups a lot easier and cheaper. You can't do that with forgings unless you want the price to be ridiculous
jonconsiglio
04-21-11, 10:57
Yall do realize it comes with a geissele trigger in that price as well. I took that 821 price, subtracted everything to see how much the lower itself costs and it was about 360ish
That's still nonsense even if billet is often more expensive. Shit, the KAC comes with a $300 trigger (MSRP) a $250 stock and RE + buffer and the lower parts kit (let's say $125? with the trigger guard and ambi controls like the selector and bolt catch).
So, any day of the week, the stripped KAC lower is costing me $25 and when Casey has them for $650, I'm actually getting $25 plus a free stripped lower.
Now, even if the value of that stripped billet lower was over $350, we'd need to deduct from that value for the AR15.com logo, the stigma attached because of the idiots that site that will brag and post photos for the next year, and the fact that you now have an "AR15.com Armory Rifle".
So, with the amount of shooting some of us do, the people we know and associate with, etc., they should give us the lower for free since we will essentially be advertising the site and the "benefits" of a $650 life membership.
ForTehNguyen - I do understand your point though about the price, and I'm sure the cost of the rights were incorporated as well. Who knows, maybe there's very little profit for them and theres just no way to lower the price.
Even though I expect occasional stupidity from them, this still bothers me a bit as they have to know they'll be taking advantage of some of the posers for profit, which I'm sure there's a decent amount.
Unfortunarely, there's very few products I can think of that will truly show the level of poser you are than this lower at that price.
In this order of tennis bat using full retardation:
1. ARFCOM lower.
2. filled in roll marks
3. training company names engraved on rifles
4. bump fire stocks
Someone go for the gold and combine all 4.
ForTehNguyen
04-21-11, 11:17
To be clear I have zero interest in owning these type of lowers. I looked at the price and features objectively ignoring things like rollmarks and what forum it came from. I don't prefer that forum either
If it works well, then it works well. Who gives a rats ass what rollmark is on the side.
jonconsiglio
04-21-11, 11:34
To be clear I have zero interest in owning these type of lowers. I looked at the price and features objectively ignoring things like rollmarks and what forum it came from. I don't prefer that forum either
Completely understand. Trying to objectively look at a product is obviously the best way to evaluate it's value. It's easy to get sidetracked though with something like this.
jonconsiglio
04-21-11, 11:50
If it works well, then it works well. Who gives a rats ass what rollmark is on the side.
I do in some cases. I won't be buying a DPMS even if one works well. In this case, even if it works well, which I'm sure it will, the roll mark will have a certain stigma attached and takes 'paying for the name' to a different and pathetic level - because in his particular case, you're not paying for a well known, qiluality name, you're paying to say you have one and to try to impress other arfcom'rs.
This lower, no matter how well it works, does nothing more than some less expensive options that are well known quality and have a history of excellent customer service.
So, in this one instance, I can only really see two reasons why anyone will be buying this:
1. You can't get a Magpul lower so you'll take the next best thing.
2. You are an arfcom'r and want to brag about having one and, at this time, being a life member. Or maybe, you think you're supporting your favorite forum...
Neither is a good opion. I buy into this shit with some things. Hell, I have a closet full of True Religion (and similar) jeans and expensive shirts and suits when Levi's and less expensive shirts and suits would do, but at least there's a valid reason for those choices.
I think of the Magpul lower in a similar way as this, but at least with the Magpul lower if you bought one very early on, you made a very wise investment. If you buy one now, I seriously doubt it's for investment reasons, it most likely so you can post cool photos online. Not sayin there's anything wrong with buying because of that allure, just be honest about it.
Same here, I guess. So, at least for me, the roll mark does matter as it tells me a lot about the gun. A BCM roll mark tells me that gun is most likely quality and the shooter may have some experience or at least wants the best quality. A Spiles red spider logo tells me he may have a decent gun but there's also a chance (not certain) he's one of those 'Spike's people' that we've seen so much silliness from lately. There's obviously a chance of that with the BCM owner too, but much less likely in my opinion.
I hate to look at it that way, but it's how it is.
justin_247
04-21-11, 12:16
No.
I once had a POF ambi(long sold, not for me...) and the right side bolt release bears a striking resemblance...
I'm not 100% positive, but the similarities between the POF Gen III lower and the Magpul lower are so great that I'm pretty sure that POF played a large role in its design.
Iraggunz should use this lower on his upcoming build......
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=78303
:D
For $821 that lower better come with a BJ
For that price, I would expect it to come with HK rollmarks.
I guess they are not expecting to sell many, so they have to cover the costs for producing so few of them. Economies of scale...
SomeOtherGuy
04-21-11, 12:54
"the bolt catch/release assemblies both use a threaded pin"
It uses non standard parts? Big selling point there...
The target audience can't wield a rollpin punch without breaking things. YMMV.
scoutfsu99
04-21-11, 13:44
I just find it amusing that some people are so against a lower. If it didn't say Arfcom all over it, people would be tripping over themselves trying to buy it. Magpul lowers go for thousands....it's the same lower, just with a different roll mark correct?
A lot of posters, and a lot of well respected posters, on this site are all over Arfcom too. Whether they were banned or still actively post, a lot of people use(d) the site. I agree with you guys about the level of retardation that exists over there. It's so frustrating to see people post bullshit that you want to gouge your eyes out. But that's really an entirely different topic and I don't want to drift.
I don't like the rollmark myself. I wouldn't spend $800+ for a lower with that all over it. But I would shoot the shit out of it if it was given to me. I saw it in a post above......what is wrong with Billet? Aren't there some very good lowers out there made with Billet (LaRue, KAC, etc)? If that lower had the same price but was stamped with LMT or BCM, would people here buy it?
What's wrong with the lower other than the gay Arfcom shit all over it?
... Aren't there some very good lowers out there made with Billet (LaRue, KAC, etc)? If that lower had the same price but was stamped with LMT or BCM, would people here buy it?...
KAC lowers are forged.
As I said earlier, I sold the one I had (POF Gen III) after evaluating how much I spent on it VS. how much it did for me.
FWIW, I wouldn't buy a Larue lower at this point either. Not knocking them, just billet lowers in general.
And anyone fool enough to pay "thousands" for the MPLA lower... Well they deserve it.
</rant>
variablebinary
04-21-11, 14:07
I'd rather get two KAC lowers.
QuietShootr
04-21-11, 14:09
well now you can get one.
http://soldiersystems.net/2011/04/21/ar15-com-billet-lower-recievers/
Nothing says "I chug the cawk" like having that stupid logo all over your shit.
scoutfsu99
04-21-11, 14:53
KAC lowers are forged.
</rant>
Ok, thanks for correcting me on that. What's wrong with billet?
^^the better question is...what's wrong w. forged?^^
Why should I go out and buy a billet lower from a boutique Mfg. like POF, Larue, Mega, etc and spend more money doing so, when I can get a SR15IWS, LMT Defender, Colt BCM DD, etc forged lower for cheaper that has been perfectly capable of performing it's specific job.
Billet's came to light as a result of boutique mfg'rs....not mil spec mfg'rs.
jonconsiglio
04-21-11, 15:33
I just find it amusing that some people are so against a lower. If it didn't say Arfcom all over it, people would be tripping over themselves trying to buy it. Magpul lowers go for thousands....it's the same lower, just with a different roll mark correct?
A lot of posters, and a lot of well respected posters, on this site are all over Arfcom too. Whether they were banned or still actively post, a lot of people use(d) the site. I agree with you guys about the level of retardation that exists over there. It's so frustrating to see people post bullshit that you want to gouge your eyes out. But that's really an entirely different topic and I don't want to drift.
I don't like the rollmark myself. I wouldn't spend $800+ for a lower with that all over it. But I would shoot the shit out of it if it was given to me. I saw it in a post above......what is wrong with Billet? Aren't there some very good lowers out there made with Billet (LaRue, KAC, etc)? If that lower had the same price but was stamped with LMT or BCM, would people here buy it?
What's wrong with the lower other than the gay Arfcom shit all over it?
No, we wouldn't be all over it no matter who's roll mark is on it. It's way too expensive for something you can get much cheaper and better elsewhere.
Also, the Magpul lowers have two groups. Obsessive fanboys and those intelligent enough to see how much profit could be made. The main reason I see in buying a Magpul lower now is that you just really love Magpul and what to impress others on the internet as I believe any chance of it becoming more valuable is small. Those that got in early can make a killing.
"...tripping over themselves to try to buy one."
No, again we would not. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe even Magpul stated these were for a collection and not so much for running the hell out of. This is VERY IMPORTANT because if AR15.com bought the rights and designed it exactly the same, it's not duty-use quality - at least according to Magpul if I remember correctly.
So no, it is not just as good as any other. No, it's not on the level of a forged KAC which has much more VALUE. LaRue? I don't know how many here hold them to the same level of quality as KAC as I don't own any of their lowers.
What exactly do ou find amusing? Even you mention the 'retardation' over there. On top of that, you ask why we wouldn't get one and what's wrong with it, then you state you wouldn't spend the money on one.
It's not about if we'd "shoot the shit" out of a FREE copy, it's about a overpriced, sub par billet lower made to copy another. The thing is, the other was designed to be a 'gift' basically and not intended for hard use. I don't see that disclaimer here.
variablebinary
04-21-11, 15:45
I just find it amusing that some people are so against a lower. If it didn't say Arfcom all over it, people would be tripping over themselves trying to buy it.
You can be amused, but you're also wrong.
Even KAC Ambi lowers are billet.
I don't think they are.
ETA saw this was already answered, carry on.
ForTehNguyen
04-21-11, 17:37
they are forged my mistake
ForTehNguyen
04-21-11, 17:41
^^the better question is...what's wrong w. forged?^^
Why should I go out and buy a billet lower from a boutique Mfg. like POF, Larue, Mega, etc and spend more money doing so, when I can get a SR15IWS, LMT Defender, Colt BCM DD, etc forged lower for cheaper that has been perfectly capable of performing it's specific job.
Billet's came to light as a result of boutique mfg'rs....not mil spec mfg'rs.
same thing with hammer forge barrels vs normal cut ones. Nothing wrong with either, yet for lowers is suddenly a deal breaker for some. Billet is cheaper for small production runs like custom parts, forged is cheaper for large production numbers. Same thing for barrels, hammer forged barrels are actually cheaper and faster to produce with higher quality, its just the hammer forge machine itself is expensive (several million dollars) which one reason why they charge more for HF.
scoutfsu99
04-21-11, 18:10
No, we wouldn't be all over it no matter who's roll mark is on it. It's way too expensive for something you can get much cheaper and better elsewhere.
Also, the Magpul lowers have two groups. Obsessive fanboys and those intelligent enough to see how much profit could be made. The main reason I see in buying a Magpul lower now is that you just really love Magpul and what to impress others on the internet as I believe any chance of it becoming more valuable is small. Those that got in early can make a killing.
"...tripping over themselves to try to buy one."
No, again we would not. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe even Magpul stated these were for a collection and not so much for running the hell out of. This is VERY IMPORTANT because if AR15.com bought the rights and designed it exactly the same, it's not duty-use quality - at least according to Magpul if I remember correctly.
So no, it is not just as good as any other. No, it's not on the level of a forged KAC which has much more VALUE. LaRue? I don't know how many here hold them to the same level of quality as KAC as I don't own any of their lowers.
What exactly do ou find amusing? Even you mention the 'retardation' over there. On top of that, you ask why we wouldn't get one and what's wrong with it, then you state you wouldn't spend the money on one.
It's not about if we'd "shoot the shit" out of a FREE copy, it's about a overpriced, sub par billet lower made to copy another. The thing is, the other was designed to be a 'gift' basically and not intended for hard use. I don't see that disclaimer here.
Jon
Roger, I mentioned Arfcom's tendency to be retarded. That's what happens with a membership that large and lax rules. That's a fact of life that we all recognize. You have to sort through a lot of chaff to get the facts there. We're all on the same page with that.
A lot of the comments in this thread amounted to "ew, I don't like the roll mark and hate Arfcom." That's what I find amusing. I'm asking why billet is subpar. I'm asking because I don't know and want to learn. I'm not arguing or making cheap shots.....I just want to know.
I think $800+ for a lower is insane. I would never pay that price. Even with the features they have in it, I couldn't stomach putting that much money into a lower. When I asked why you woudn't get one and what's wrong with it, I was being literal.
Also, that's the first I've heard about Magpul lowers not being up to duty use. I did a search and couldn't find anything on it. Didn't Noveske have a hand in it? I'm tracking that most (all?) were gifts...but didn't know they weren't up to serious use.
So they will be available to the peasants at a later date. I think not. They can blow me.
Then why not close this thread? With the shots that board takes at this place, and the love this board has for them, why have a thread going to their monolith?
jonconsiglio
04-21-11, 18:40
Scoutfsu99,
Ok, I got you now on the roll mark. I agree the mark itself is a stupid reason to buy or not buy a lower.
I'll look for the post on the Magpul lower. It's there somewhere and was definitely from someone well known and respected, IF I'm remembering it correctly, though I'm pretty sure I am.
Now, I may be getting the one on the Noveske gun and the china doll lower confused. The china doll lower may actually be the one they were referring to, so I don't know where that leaves the Noveske/Magpul gun.
Either way, I don't care for billet and it's definitely not worth a premium. Obviously the material is important here, where it's 6061 or 7075. There was a post somewhere here that explained the difference between the two and exactly why the forged lower was more solid.
I'll see what I can find....
There was a post somewhere here that explained the difference between the two and exactly why the forged lower was more solid.
I'll see what I can find....
Forging changes the internal structure of the metal so that the 'grain' is continuous with the shape being forged.
A billet will have 'grain' that is oriented in the manner it was produced. In steel you can get hot rolled blanks that will have uniform grain in one direction like a piece of wood. Billets can also be cast blocks which would have a random internal structure and be significantly weaker than the other two options.
Grain doesnt mean literally "grain," it's the internal crystal structure of the forging/billet/what-have-you.
I believe MegaMachine did a writeup how they produce parts once and they use rolled blanks with uni directional grain. Pretty sure most of the other companies would use a similar process.
Forgings are still going to be stronger for their size. 6061 aluminum is usually used where you might have to weld something, I think it's a silicon alloy? 7075 is harder to work with but has a higher strength to weight ratio.
Forging is one of the oldest metalworking techniques in existence and still the best. -.-
Moose-Knuckle
04-21-11, 19:49
Love the comments on Soldier Systems! :big_boss:
"I'd rather own a Hesse." BWAHAHAHAHAH ROFLMFWAO!
eternal24k
04-21-11, 20:45
wow I was digging it until i saw the price...
that is just retarded. I would pay $200
SpaceWrangler
04-21-11, 20:51
Some pretty funny comments in the linked thread.
Uuuuuuum, no.
How in the world did they come up with that price?
Then why not close this thread? With the shots that board takes at this place, and the love this board has for them, why have a thread going to their monolith?
Because people like to bitch on the internet....DUH....:sarcastic:
I would like some of the drugs that those people are smokeing....WOW!!! almoat $900 for that ? Hell, you might as well buy a Bushmaster ACR if you are going to spent that knid of money.....Yes I went there. :blink:
ForTehNguyen
04-21-11, 22:14
Uuuuuuum, no.
How in the world did they come up with that price?
CTR Stock $92
Geissele Super 3 gun trigger $250
BAD-ASS selector switches $50
Magpul MIAD $35
So that leaves $395 for an ambi lower with LPK, receiver extension, and buffer
lifebreath
04-21-11, 22:25
For one thing, it's billet, and having an ARFCOM logo on it means you might as well have a lower with a Mattel or Barbie imprint--means nothing for functionality, but can be rather embarassing in certain company, like having your buddies discover you wear pink, frilly swim-trunks or something.:laugh:
what's wrong with wearing pink frilly swim trunks?
wetidlerjr
04-22-11, 02:04
I belong (as a "Life" member) to TOS and I didn't buy this lower. I don't need one and, if I did, I would most likely go another route. I pretty much stay in the technical forums there AND here which reduces my chances of being butthurt and suffering from angst immensely. I do, however, have an answer to all of the problems many here have with this lower and TOS and that is "Don't buy the lower" and "Don't join or go to TOS."
See, now wasn't that easy ? :sarcastic:
Magic_Salad0892
04-22-11, 04:07
Was the magpul receiver forged? Forging isn't economical for low number runs, forging dies are very expensive. Forging is great for churning out high numbers of standard design. This ain't a standard design hence the billet. Even KAC Ambi lowers are billet. Billet allows you to make custom setups a lot easier and cheaper. You can't do that with forgings unless you want the price to be ridiculous
Not calling you out or anything, but Knight's lower receivers are forged.
Billet receivers were a product of dudes like Spike's Tactical, LaRue Tactical, Tactical Innovations, and other Tactical boutique stores, who were looking to cut down costs for them, and drive up prices for the consumer.
Not calling you out or anything, but Knight's lower receivers are forged.
Billet receivers were a product of dudes like Spike's Tactical, LaRue Tactical, Tactical Innovations, and other Tactical boutique stores, who were looking to cut down costs for them, and drive up prices for the consumer.
You both just said the same thing... -.- They are cheaper. Die design takes actual engineering staff.
I'm asking why billet is subpar. I'm asking because I don't know and want to learn. I'm not arguing or making cheap shots.....I just want to know.
Because there is no reason for it, and it is more expensive. It's a cop-out solution for the boutique builders to incorporate features that generally few want and even fewer actually use. And with the Ambo lowers from KAC being forged there's even less reason to get into billet. Some also say that it's weaker than forged because forging makes it strong, while others say that if the block the billet is made from was forged then it has the same strength. Additionally, because of the big, blocky, nature of billet lowers you run into compatibility issues with various aftermarket parts & pieces.
In my opinion billet is more expensive with no actual tangible benefit, and is largely the realm of those that will buy the lower in question BECAUSE of the stupid bolt-face-logo and simply because it is expensive. For those that actually find the lower appealing, get a POF (http://www.pof-usa.com/lower/lowerreceiver.htm), or better yet just get the KAC to have all the function and none of the drawbacks.
They must have caught wind that the government was interested in a purchase so they priced em accordingly.
ForTehNguyen
04-22-11, 09:31
In my opinion billet is more expensive with no actual tangible benefit, and is largely the realm of those that will buy the lower in question BECAUSE of the stupid bolt-face-logo and simply because it is expensive. For those that actually find the lower appealing, get a POF (http://www.pof-usa.com/lower/lowerreceiver.htm), or better yet just get the KAC to have all the function and none of the drawbacks.
billet is cheaper than forging for small production runs. No ones going to make new expensive forging dies for a low production run of custom lowers. Forging a low production numbers run would be more expensive than billet due to the high initial costs of making forging dies. Billet is more expensive if you try to produce large numbers of a standard design, forging is cheaper in this case. Billet has its purpose from a manufacturing cost perspective - if you want to do custom low production numbers stuff, like what this lower is.
billet is cheaper than forging for small production runs. No ones going to make new expensive forging dies for a low production run of custom lowers. Forging a low production numbers run would be more expensive than billet due to the high initial costs of making forging dies. Billet is more expensive if you try to produce large numbers of a standard design, forging is cheaper in this case. Billet has its purpose from a manufacturing cost perspective - if you want to do custom low production numbers stuff, like what this lower is.
None of which matters when there are lower-cost, production, forged lowers that offer all of the same functionality without all the oddball sizes, logos, and parts compatibility issues.
Slice it however you want, what billet has really come to be is a way for the aesthetics crowd to get their "cool looking" lowers to market.
If, in fact, this lower did come with the aforementioned Scarlett Johansen BJs, and the only way to get them was to make it out of billet, then perhaps it would be somehow worthwhile. Instead what we have here is a marketing ploy and nothing more.
ForTehNguyen
04-22-11, 16:22
i dont see it as a marketing ploy, some people would like to know if its forged or billet. Non issue to me either way since the lower receiver isn't a stress component of the firearm.
i dont see it as a marketing ploy, some people would like to know if its forged or billet. Non issue to me either way since the lower receiver isn't a stress component of the firearm.
I can't figure out I yourearguing just tonseethe words on the screen or some other problem. You're not making sense.
The lower itself is a marketing ploy as there is no functional advantage.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-23-11, 02:30
If only it had full auto markings for the safety selector...
I've got to hand it to ARFCOM for buying the rights and getting these into production, but I still think that the the day of the Art Deco billet lower has largely come and gone; in fact, I just sold my Magpul MPLA lower.
Make no mistake, these are very nice units, but those of us who pursued them for the ambi capabilities have long since discovered that there are now some excellent alternatives on the market -- including the KAC, which remains a personal favorite.
AC
Had a MPLA, kept the upper and sold the lower. The BAD changed everything for me. Plus the MPLA never got me a Blow job or pulled an errant shot back into the black. Nothing wrong with them, nothing wrong with the AR15 lower- just not the way I'm going now.
Maybe I'm gear dumb, but in the classes I've taken, and the shoots I go to, I never look at lowers- hardly notice them. I notice uppers, slings, mags and belt set-ups. Lowers all look alike to me.
I read the history of this where they bought the design and spent years developing it...I almost died... with the money that site charges for advertising and their complimentary scams, I would think the money they have this could have been developed in less than 6 months, especially because it was billet.
Anyone interested in "their" own product, I would take it to market in 6 months, and I will certainly take money from those that don't have a clue in manufacturing...lol
I am just shocked how these "AR professionals" can't seem to know anything about manufacturing.
It's only a piece of aluminum. Machine shops do this stuff everyday, but money talks.
Kind of a joke that the "heard" is so excited about it. It's all in the name it seems with ARs.
Mike in MN
***from Tommy Boy
*But why do they put a guarantee on the box?
*Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of shit. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time.
The_War_Wagon
04-23-11, 19:58
Hmmm... BARFcom embossed billet, or BCM forged from Grant with a Giselle trigger, for $300 LESS.
Decisions, decisions... :p
I am just shocked how these "AR professionals" can't seem to know anything about manufacturing.
The guy who started it is a web developer from NY. Used to be no big deal, it was a hobby forum, but advertising and marketing deals are how you make bank on a web property.
The guy who started it is a web developer from NY. Used to be no big deal, it was a hobby forum, but advertising and marketing deals are how you make bank on a web property.
Yeah, but from what I understand this "hobby" has been going for many many years and their forum is run by what is right or wrong with ARs. So at the very least people in the business of promoting what is good or bad should know something about manufacturing, especially if they are gonna buy the rights to a design and manufacture it themselves.
I suppose though, if you pay them their $4800 per year to have a "Industry Partner" membership and advertise a product on there and they really don't care what is wrong or right as long as they are making money.
This "web" bank could just be all about money versus knowing what it takes to make them.
I see this stuff everyday in machining where companies make things just because they think they are professionals and then turn around and talk about how difficult of a process it was, when actually it isn't that difficult if you know what you are doing.
I just would have thought that a big company like that would have the resources (money and connections) to find the right shop to make their little Lower Receiver happen.
Reading these forums are a great source of information about the do's and don'ts to building ARs, but very weak on facts when it comes to manufacturing. Maybe I have just been making parts too long and think it's not that difficult.
Mike in MN
Let's see, I got my S&W receiver for $99, my BCM 16" middy w/ BCG w/ gunfighter charging handle for less than $500, Magpul parts, LMT lower receiver parts kit, other miss. parts from M4 members for $250. Darn near to everything I need for a complete gun. Unless the Arf lower is signed by Eugene Stoner and comes with a gift certificate to the EAG class of my choice, I'll pass. (I do visit the Arf site, nothing is all bad) :eek:
wetidlerjr
04-24-11, 05:09
TOS store does have forged stripped lowers available if that is "the way you roll". :D
Yeah, but from what I understand this "hobby" has been going for many many years and their forum is run by what is right or wrong with ARs. So at the very least people in the business of promoting what is good or bad should know something about manufacturing, especially if they are gonna buy the rights to a design and manufacture it themselves.
I suppose though, if you pay them their $4800 per year to have a "Industry Partner" membership and advertise a product on there and they really don't care what is wrong or right as long as they are making money.
This "web" bank could just be all about money versus knowing what it takes to make them.
I see this stuff everyday in machining where companies make things just because they think they are professionals and then turn around and talk about how difficult of a process it was, when actually it isn't that difficult if you know what you are doing.
I just would have thought that a big company like that would have the resources (money and connections) to find the right shop to make their little Lower Receiver happen.
Reading these forums are a great source of information about the do's and don'ts to building ARs, but very weak on facts when it comes to manufacturing. Maybe I have just been making parts too long and think it's not that difficult.
Mike in MN
If pressed, most of what you'll find with ar15.com is that they acknowledge being a "hobby" forum, no different than a Jeep forum or a knitting forum. "good enough" rules the day because, well, the gun is little more than a prop for internut picture posting or a ticket into the cool-guy's club of belonging. and if you talk to most of the site sponsors, those very companies whose names appear at the top of the page, they'll tell you that they know the place is a joke but that they also know it's a necessary evil in their marketplace.
I posted a thread there YEARS ago called "why are so many geeks into guns" (or words to that effect) and the collective shrieking at being called "geeks" damn near set the earth off it's axis. Yet at the same time there was a thread about high school reunions where the basement dwellers ranted and raved about "I hated those people 10 years ago and they made my life hell and I ain't going to no reunion". Hmm, walks like a duck...
I say this to get back to the point of this thread which is the lower, and in which case nguyen may be right that the "look" is in fact part of the design criteria. Much like the Guggenheim would still be a museum without the circular ramp form, but it wouldn't be the Guggenheim. The intended market for this lower isn't actually shooters, it's ar15.com members. And in that case appearance, belonging to the club, being perceived as having "the best", is what's important. So they take a billet lower, in a design that was thought of as unobtainable (and therefore "better"), ignore the fact that you could buy the same lower from POF all along, engrave the club logo on it, fill it with "the best" parts, made better by being further engraved with the website logo, mark it up because that's the price of belonging to the club, and they make a mint. The capitalist in me says "you go girl!" to the Avila clan for turning the site into a cash cow.
Oh, and FWIW, I actually *like* the BFL logo. I think it was inspired. I hope they paid the guy who made it and that he's getting residuals on everything sold with it, and that they didn't just con him into giving it up for the "community".
But I am not a fan of what the BFL stands for.
wetidlerjr
04-24-11, 07:07
...I am not a fan of what the BFL stands for.
I think (for what that is worth) that there is way too much worry (concern, dismay, love/hate) here about what ARFCOM does or doesn't do (right or wrong). As a member of ARFCOM and this site, I try to get what good there is to be had from both. TOS isn't M4Carbine and never will be and couldn't be if they wanted to (and vice-versa) due to mission and size. It's really the old "apples and oranges" thing as it applies to ARs/M-16s. There are good people on both sites that put out good info and I'm all the better for it. It has taken me some time to be able to sort out the "wheat from the chaff" on gun sites in general but I'm pretty good at it now. I come here for some "real deal" AR/M-16 info and I get it and I get some "real deal" info from ARFCOM, too but in other areas. I decided to make every effort some time ago to not get all butt hurt over internet comments and avoid as much drama as possible. Like my nine year-old great niece says, "Save the drama for your mama." Words to live by.
I think I'll stay on BOTH sites and make an attempt to make BOTH better if no one minds too much. I've already started to visit the ARFCOM "AR Discussions" forum more and stirred a little shit from info gleaned here so "Never say never !".
:laugh:
the replies on that link are fantastic...
Anyhow, see you all later. Im sure I will get the banhammer.
Thanks for all your participation to this site!! 13 posts since 2006 & this in one of them...:p sorry amigo, that was too easy.
lighten up a little...;)
SWATcop556
04-24-11, 09:00
This one is way off topic and done. Save the drama and bullshit for day time TV.
Forum drama is a great way to get a time out.
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