View Full Version : Is this 'good'? Zeroing in my DDM4v1.... target pic.
ComeAndTakeIt
04-27-11, 18:57
Not as good as I would have hoped. I know it's got to be me, but this is from 50 yards on a bench rest and using sandbags.
I got it zeroed, but I am surprised I can't keep groups tighter when on a rest. I guess it's getting used to the AR15 sight picture. With hunting rifles I usually have a better result.
I'm trying to improve my skills with iron sights before getting an Aimpoint.
Any advice or thoughts? Is this 'ok' performance for the BUIS at 50 yds?
Will I see an improvement with an Aimpoint/Eotech setup?
Thanks for humoring a noob. :D
http://i51.tinypic.com/15clzxt.jpg
BushmasterFanBoy
04-27-11, 19:02
Looks good to go for me, assuming you're shooting factory FMJ's, but I've never been that accurate with my AR's. An Aimpoint or Eotech might tighten it up a hair, but on the whole, you won't see a drastic reduction.
ComeAndTakeIt
04-27-11, 19:11
Ok. I guess I am just hearing of people talking about punching the same hole at 100 yards and thinking I could do better.
It was with factory FMJ. (Federal 55 gr 100 pack from Walmart $39.95). :D
The AR sight system is interesting. I get why it's good for combat, but for precision, it takes a lot of practice I guess.
I'm new at this with a week old rilfe. Love the rifle so far.
Keep shooting irons, it's a dying skill to the masses. Once you get proficient with irons, you'll notice they are more consistent and accurate than a RDS.
If your fundamentals are solid, it *may* be that the relatively thick, flat tip of the Front Site Post is causing the larger group. I have a thin sharp tip on my front site post and I shot surprisingly well with irons.
ICANHITHIMMAN
04-27-11, 19:19
keep working on it you can do much better but your off to a good start
Not bad at all. I suggest next time you hit the range to set up @ 25yds and shoot a group. You should be able to hold about 1" @ 25yds if you are doing your part. Then try a group at 100yds if you have that option at your range. Mil specifications generally calls for 4" or better @ 100yds.
Take your time. Focus on that front sight post which should be centered in the small aperture of the rear sight, and practice proper trigger control.
ETA: Shoot groups of 5 for starters. Try some 10rd groups once you think you are dialed in.
ComeAndTakeIt
04-27-11, 19:31
Good advice and encouragement.
I'll definitely try the 25 yards and 100 yards next time.
I did notice my front site covers the whole red area of the bullseye. Also, I was using the large aperture. Maybe I should try the small?
I'm definitely wanting to master BUIS. I'm generally old school in nature anyway. I double clutch my downshifts even though new cars don't require it, and on handguns, I hate the idea of lasers. I just like things the way they were intended... pure.
I'm working on my breathing and trigger control. The rifle is rested so I can focus on those things.
I love this rifle... did I say that already? :sarcastic:
I would go along with the above really consentrate on the fundamentals. Once you have that down you will be able to call your flyers and be better over all. Keep working on trigger control, your target looks like that is prolly your biggest issue. From what I can see you pretty close up and down (except for a couple) its just side to side (aka trigger). To work on that you can do the dime test or other coin. Just get in the prone unsupported have a friend put a coin on the tip of the barrel and pull the trigger. Make sure your weapon is clear first. The coin should stay balanced on the barrel. Keep working on it than start trying different positions, like kneeling or standing. Trying to get the same results keep the coin on. Good luck and have fun with it.
Also, I was using the large aperture. Maybe I should try the small?
Definitely. I always recommend zeroing using the small aperture.
ComeAndTakeIt
04-27-11, 19:44
I can't believe I didn't try the small aperture. :blink: LOL
I basically forgot it was there. I was so focused on getting this thing zeroed.
msigette, good stuff. Thanks to you and everyone else. What a great forum and I appreciate the advice.
I may hit the range again tomorrow (if I can get away for a long "lunch" again). :) Small aperture time.
SWATcop556
04-27-11, 19:51
Ammo will have a dramatic effect on group size. Shooting crap bulk ammo vs match grade will greatly reduce group size.
Shoot some quality ammo and you will see a difference.
ForTehNguyen
04-27-11, 21:35
thats fine for irons. Group will tighten slightly with an aimpoint or eotech since the dot will be more consistent than irons
The large aperture explains a lot of it. Silly of me to overlook such a basic explanation.
Want improve that group? Use a 6 o'clock hold that way your front doesn't cover the red dot! Two clicks up, hold bottom of the red dot! :D
ComeAndTakeIt
04-27-11, 22:37
Want improve that group? Use a 6 o'clock hold that way your front doesn't cover the red dot! Two clicks up, hold bottom of the red dot! :D
Good point...
That plus small aperture means another range trip! :D
bsmith_shoot
04-27-11, 23:38
At 50 yds? What, about a 5 inch group? If you were aiming at high-center chest, that would mean kill-shot. I know you wanna get the absolute most out of your rifle, and for good reason, cause they are expensive, but if you can hit a pie pan at 50 yds, every single time, you can accomplish the intended purpose of your rifle.
Thats not bad shooting at all man, and with some practice, it will only get better.
You're doing very good for using the large aperture, but you should definitely sight in using the small one as everyone has already said.
My DDM4v1 (one of the first with the non CHF barrel), using the small aperture (Troy BUIS), shooting 69 gr. Prvi Match can easily hold 1" groups if I don't screw up too badly.
One of the things I did, was to use one of those Shoot-N-C style diamond targets about 2 inches in size. Then place the lower tip of the diamond right on top of the front sight post. I prefer it to a big circular shape.
warlord260
04-28-11, 05:59
I can't believe I didn't try the small aperture. :blink: LOL
I basically forgot it was there. I was so focused on getting this thing zeroed.
msigette, good stuff. Thanks to you and everyone else. What a great forum and I appreciate the advice.
I may hit the range again tomorrow (if I can get away for a long "lunch" again). :) Small aperture time.
I did the same thing when i sighted in my DD. Left a little frustrated. My brother asked if i used the small peep, Duh! I totally forgot.
Hi,
Ditto here with my experience with my DD M4. It does take a bit of work to get the sight picture in the iron sights just right, but I was punching holes through a 1.5" target bullseye consitently in tight groups at 25 yards after a while.
With my ACOG, at 25 yards, I was literally putting bullets through the same hole or two, and at 50 the group was/is very tight.
At 100 yards, I'm getting fairly tight groups in center mass.
I think what we all tend to forget is that the M4 is a fighting rifle designed to bring down human targets and if shots are being placed in center mass consistently out to 100-200 yards, it is a deadly rifle for that purpose.
FWIW.
ComeAndTakeIt
04-28-11, 07:05
Awesome info.
I'm hoping I can hit the range today or Saturday. I'm fired up now.
After doing that a while, I'll spring for high dollar match grade ammo and give it a run.
I second B_Smith. The results on that target at 50 yards, first time shooting an AR I believe as well, will get the job done for it's intentions. If you are looking for marksman results, you will need plenty more practice. Most of us are not limited by our weapon, but our own ability to get the most out of it.
If you are looking to be a competitive marksman with it, then I can't tell you anything, because I am not. But if you want to have your DD as a defensive weapon, you are on the right track. Once you are fairly satisfied that the sights are "on", I would practice at 25, then 50, then 100 yds as others have said.
I would also start shooting from the shoulder w/out the bench, that is where you will gain confidence in knowing that you can reliably hit a target closer to real world scenarios.
I have had my DD XVM for over a year and I am still shooting iron sights, partly because I want to be proficient with them and partly because of budgetary reasons. You have a good rifle, practice with it to wring the most out of it.
Another factor to consider is your vision. Are your eyes healthy? Are you a bit older?
The front sight post width issue might be bugging you in a very subtle way. If you factor out the 3 rounds at 6 o'clock, what remains is a decent vertical cluster strung out a bit horizontally just above the center of the target area. IMO that left-right string suggests that you might have a bit of difficulty getting a really clear focus on that post. The aperture size is a good thing to consider too, as previously noted.
Nearing forty, I still have what is technically 20/20 vision, but I can tell it's not as clear as it was 20+ years ago. I tend to print slightly horizontal groups now, using the irons, at ranges of 50-100m. Maybe you've got similar issues?
ComeAndTakeIt
04-28-11, 10:37
Another factor to consider is your vision. Are your eyes healthy? Are you a bit older?
The front sight post width issue might be bugging you in a very subtle way. If you factor out the 3 rounds at 6 o'clock, what remains is a decent vertical cluster strung out a bit horizontally just above the center of the target area. IMO that left-right string suggests that you might have a bit of difficulty getting a really clear focus on that post. The aperture size is a good thing to consider too, as previously noted.
Nearing forty, I still have what is technically 20/20 vision, but I can tell it's not as clear as it was 20+ years ago. I tend to print slightly horizontal groups now, using the irons, at ranges of 50-100m. Maybe you've got similar issues?
I'm, as my daughter would say, "40 and a half". :D
I also have 20/20 vision, but like you can definitely tell a difference in how quickly my focus changes, etc. I'd imagine you may be onto something there.
I can't wait to try with the smaller aperture to see if it makes any difference. If it doesn't then I'm guessing this focus thing and the front site post size is *part* of the issue.
The smaller aperture may help me to focus on it better too. Looking through a pin hole at something can clarify a picture for someone who doesn't have good vision, so this may have the same effect.
This may be of help in shrinking your groups, I find it helpful myself. I noticed your target is kind of on the large size. I have found that if I use a target that is, say, no more than about 2" at fifty yards with no magnification, that it really gets me to be much more consistent in placing the front sight. You may have already done this next one, sandbag the rear of your rifle. And finally, really concentrate on a good, straight back squeeze on the trigger.
Oh btw, thecolter put up a 50 yd target on the optics forum that looks pretty good for sighting.
That looks good. Does anyone have that 25 yard target PDF that extrapolates the group out to 50/100 yds, etc?
I only have the actual pdf and print outs. That has been a HUGE help for me, since i have terrible eye sight (until LASIK)
This one?
http://www.lawofficer.com/sites/default/files/UPdated25yrdSightInTarget2.pdf
*Don't forget to confirm at your actual "Zero" distance (50 or 100yds).
The small aperture should make a big difference. The big one is for close quarters and for low light shooting out to 200yds max (torso hits, not tight groups)
CATI
Enjoy it while you can- I'm not as lucky as oldman time is catching up with my eyes! I can still shoot the AR irons pretty well but other types are a real pain- so most of my guns now where scopes! :rolleyes:
If you're fairly new to the AR, I'd spend some time ensuring I understood sight picture, steady hold, how to use the trigger. Manuals are good.
6 O'clock hold as others have said - after a while you start to know exactly when you are "on".
Ubung macht den Meister.
It will come - it is a great rifle with a great barrel.
I am not a fan of iron sights.... What I am really saying is that I shoot like crap with iron sights. :D That is an acceptable group at 50 yards. I found that after about 1000 rounds or so, my DD barrels seem to tighten up. I also shoot DRASTICALLY better with a red dot. Keep up the good work.
ComeAndTakeIt
04-29-11, 19:28
Thanks guys. I go shoot tomorrow. I'm sure the small aperture will help some.
I bought some smaller targets too.
I have my front sight tool in order to adjust for a 6 o'clock picture as well.
I'll post results tomorrow night!
I'm loving this rifle. I got my bore guide and single piece rod today and gave it's first bath. :)
I know I'm just re-dirtying it tomorrow but really just wanted to clean it to tinker with it and get to know it better. It's so sweet.
Second time at the range finally zeroing in my SPARC 2.
Shooting 62 grain (reloaded) soft points @ 50 yards.
14.5" PSA CHF barrel30381
To answer your question, the reason your groups aren't good is FUNDAMENTALS. I recommend getting some training in the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship. Project Appleseed puts on a weekend course for only $60 that does a great job of this. Bring your AR, 400 rounds of ammo, at least 2 mags, and a sling, and they will make you a more effective Rifleman. It is a great basis for anywhere you want to go with your training. www.appleseedinfo.org
dramabeats
12-14-14, 12:29
To answer your question, the reason your groups aren't good is FUNDAMENTALS. I recommend getting some training in the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship. Project Appleseed puts on a weekend course for only $60 that does a great job of this. Bring your AR, 400 rounds of ammo, at least 2 mags, and a sling, and they will make you a more effective Rifleman. It is a great basis for anywhere you want to go with your training. www.appleseedinfo.org
This thread is almost four years old, OP is not even active anymore.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.