View Full Version : Thoughts on night sights
I have never taken a civilain training course, so I don't know what the consensus is and in mil courses it is not an option. What are your thoughts on night sights? Part of me thinks that if it is so dark you can't see your sights, you can't ID a target either. But then it seems wise to make sights stand out as much as possible as well, in low light situations.
So, on a carry gun I think I'd rather have them just in case, but I'm not convinced they are absolutely necassary either. What do you think?
While definitely not neccesary I think that night sights are worth getting. Everytime I do a night shoot I am reminded how nice it is to be able to pick up your sights quickly. Obviously you NEED to have a flashlight to identify the threat but night sights help quite a bit as well with the shooting aspect of it.
-David
olds442tyguy
06-08-06, 18:05
I don't think I'd have a handgun with out them. Try them out first though, as I tried a Glock with an unknown brand and they were almost too bright.
I try to stay away from pistols that have solid black sights. Pistols like HK's USP Tactical can leave you frustrated even when there's still enough light to identify what you're shooting at.
Hobbs,
I took a class back in November and we spent several hours on low/no light. I was running my G17 without night sights and while I did okay in the low light section I absolutely got my ass kicked in the no light section. Granted it was November, moonless night and absolutely freezing but I was so discouraged and cold (shivering uncontrollably) that I completely forgot I had my G19 with night sights in my car, not 20 yards away. I honestly believe that night sights would have made a difference. I would have been able to hang in there with them and I think that would have kept me motivated and kept my head in the right frame of mind. I had problems IDing the target but even more troubling was lining my sights up. You can't line them up if you can't see them.
Get them, its a small investment that will pay big dividends when the sun goes down!
Interesting discussion I think. I have night sights on my Kimber, so I know what they're like but as I said, I haven't done "real" training with them. Nice to get the opinions from people that have.
I was planning on changing out the sights on my new Glock at some point, and I think I probably still will...
Hobbs, let me add one more point: without NS I couldn't get the most out of the training I was attending but I did learn some valuable lessons and one of them was, 'run night sights'.
I have never taken a civilain training course, so I don't know what the consensus is and in mil courses it is not an option. What are your thoughts on night sights? Part of me thinks that if it is so dark you can't see your sights, you can't ID a target either. But then it seems wise to make sights stand out as much as possible as well, in low light situations.
So, on a carry gun I think I'd rather have them just in case, but I'm not convinced they are absolutely necassary either. What do you think?
Night sights are MANDATORY IMHO. If you cannot see your sights then you cannot make accurate hits. I have watched to many folks without night sights struggle in night shoots to think anything different.
C4
I'm reluctant to put night sights on my 1911s, for a number of (mostly stupid) reasons. I have them on my G19, where they seem more distracting than anything else. I'm 50/50 on them as of now. They do give a nice warm fuzzy, but as of now, I'd rather have a handheld light.
I am putting on a set of Lasergrips for low light shooting. After the demo we got a couple of weeks ago, I realized they make shooting at night almost ridiculously easy if you have solid fundamentals.
I refuse to carry a defensive handgun without them. Target or hunting pistol, maybe, but any handgun I own that is or might be directed towards two-legged critters is getting a set of Trijicons.
First, why not? Isn't being able to make more accurate shots in low/no light situations worth $80 (or thereabouts)? Why limit yourself by not having them when they are so readily available?
Second, they provide a consistent sight picture. Run with the white outline of the dots during the day, and the sight picture is identical at night with the tritium.
Just my humble opinion after carrying one daily for nine years of LE.
I train LEOs on the range. My advice to them is to completely ignore the night sights, dots, lines, or whatever else that is on the iron in daylight. They need to concentrate on just the outline of the iron in daylight.
Night sights should be used only in very low light situations in which you still have enough light to identify your target. For home defensive purposes, any uninvited person is a target in my book - reasonable fear of death or great bodily injury is required as well. ;)
My overall advice is definitely get the night sights.
I guess I'll give my $.02. I'm not totally convinced of their utility. I have taken four courses that I can remember, which have had a night fire componant. I have had night sights for none of them.
There is no question night sights allow you to line up your sights under conditions which would be impossible with plain sights. The question for me is the conditions where night sights shine conditions under which I am likely to be engaged in a defensive shooting? So far, I've not found an instance where I would need night sights and not need a light to ID my target.
Take for instance my house. There is ambient light thanks to street lights. Enough ambient light where I can actually see my sights, if I have my glasses on. However, I would not consider that enough light for me to actually determine if someone was a deadly force threat, unless they're in the middle of a hostile act. In that case, I'm going to need a light to identify my threat, and that light can be used to silhouette my sights.
I've recently been instructed on a light and move technique. It emphasizes quick and very disciplined use of a white light to identify a target, moving off line and engaging the target. In this technique, IMO, night sights would be valuable. However, I have assesed my defensive needs (I don't CCW, so I'm limited to home defense here.). My house doesn't present too many opprotunities for me to get off line. Also I have questions about whether or not I can take in enough information to determine what type of threat exists in the very short amount of time the light is on. I'm sure with training and repitition you can get the time down to a very short time indeed. However, how many of us have the luxury of intensive night training? I suppose you could do some sort of dry fire exercises in the home.
Anyway, what I'm getting at is in my estimation, I'm going to need that light for a lawful defensive engagement. If I'm going to need that light then plain black sights will work. I am, however, considering a set of Lasergrips to fill in any gaps.
Tritium sights will not be a deal breaker under most conditions, especially if you are able to have a good weapon-mounted or tertiary light at the time. However, since the liklihood (sic?) of needing to use my handgun after sundown is increased, I prefer to have night sights on my carry guns for any possible advantage.
"Night" sights are not just for sundown-to-sunrise; many structures are pitch black at high noon.
I had the opportunity to take a Handgun 2 class at Thunder Ranch before they left TX, and we did a low-light/night shoot that was a truly "enlightening" experience (especially clearing the pitch-black tower from the top down on a moonless night).
One thing that I never see/hear mentioned is the ability to align sights and make ready in reduced light without having the weapong/tertiary light switched on. Once again it's a minority situation, but one could be in a situation where he/she is taking advantage of cover/concealment in the shadows while the threat is out in the light or is being intermittently illuminated by some source. In this situation, it's nice to be able to line up the sights (in the dark) without giving up your position.
FWIW, I believe that sights with Trijicon inserts are your best bet. If you find the inserts distracting, try tritium in the front sight only. I personally do not like three-dot sights of any kind, preferring two-dot (Heinie Straight 8), bar-dot (Novak), or front-only night sights.
If you have metallic sights that you like already, you may be able to send your slide to Trijicon's Tooltech division for a tritium install without replacing the sights. They can install green (brightest, and most appropriate for the front), yellow (apparently less bright and more appropriate for the rear), and (I think) orange.
I always had been in the "why not?" group, but not totally convinced either. It looks like enough people have trained with and without to convince me they are indeed necessary. Looks like I'll get a set for my one remaining defensive gun without them pretty soon.
Thanks for the advice and experiences.
ETA- there has been a lot of talk about lights, I keep a pentagon light next to the bed at night but I don't carry one on my person on a daily basis.
Wherever my firearm goes, a light comes along, especially after sundown.
The primary advantage of a light is to identify the threat. If you can't see the hands, how do you know for sure there is a weapon?
Dude, you're freaking me out.
Hmmm , interesting signature line. Did you get permission from the originator of that quote?:D
I always had been in the "why not?" group, but not totally convinced either. It looks like enough people have trained with and without to convince me they are indeed necessary. Looks like I'll get a set for my one remaining defensive gun without them pretty soon.
Thanks for the advice and experiences.
ETA- there has been a lot of talk about lights, I keep a pentagon light next to the bed at night but I don't carry one on my person on a daily basis.
Good choice. I have found the white outlines have helped my daytime shooting as well. As for lights; my wife used to question why I always carry a Surefire( sometimes 2) and a LED until we were in a Menards and the power went out during the day. The emergency lights didnt turn on and the place was dark as a tomb. No, I didnt have to blind an attacker or illuminate a target but we were able to egress from the very back of this large building without incident.
I'm another firm believer in night sights. They are a true "Must Have" for any handgun in my opinion. I made the mistake of shooting my last two classes without them and suffered accordingly at night. My G19 just had the stock sights (Warren Tactical night sights installed now) and my 1911 just had the front sight tritium insert (Getting shipped off shortly for rear sight inserts). Neither was even remotely useable during low light situations without a white light to back light them. After receiving some outstanding low light training from Larry Vickers, David Pennington, Simon, and Tom Alibrando I know understand that leaving a white light on this long is a recipe for disaster. Larry’s low light techniques are simply outstanding.
I would not own another handgun without night sights, but Crimson Trace laser grips are an even better option. I have a set on order. They are the true "Cats Ass" at night.
IMO - Night sights, white light for threat identification (Flash bulb technique), and Crimson Trace laser grips for truly accurate fire is the best set-up available.
Quality tritium inserts (e.g., Trijicon) are pretty durable, and though they have a finite life, they typically will dim slowly and provide plenty of warning that they are nearing the end of their useful life.
Lights and lasers (even good ones), however, may fail without notice, especially if Murphy is having his way. I believe the moral there is to have redundancy in your system (e.g., a backup light) if your life may depend upon it.
Hopefully this isn't a hijack, but I was wondering what the preference was as to brand and/or model of NS? I've only used Trijicons in the past but have recently decided to give XS Big Dots a shot at the suggestion of a fellow shooter. I really like the big bright front sight, but am having some problems adjusting to the wide open rear sight.
For me, its front only if any. Being able to see your sights or not, it doesnt matter if the target is not illuminated. (I always carry a light, and depending on the pistol, I may have a laser) At any realistic distance I'll ever be shooting at a target in complete darkness, it will probably be point shooting. I'm just a schmoe in OH with a CCW, 10-15' is the max distance I'm concerned with, and thats the distance I practice in the dark.
If you ever get a chance to take a class with a night shoot, you will learn a lot.
I lived several years in a bad Third World country and learnt that not two fights are alike and to expect the unexpected.
I also learnt to appreciate nightsights on a defensive weapon. I take any help I can get.
Picked up a set of Ameriglos for $50 today for the new Glock. :)
Picked up a set of Ameriglos for $50 today for the new Glock. :)
Rick at Ameriglo is good people.
Another reason to have them is that it helps you find your gun in the dark. Whenever I have to stay in unfamilier territory such as a hotel room I can see those dots glowing in the dark.
Dave Berryhill
06-15-06, 12:18
After being involved in several shootings when I was a cop, I can't imagine not having night sights of some form on a self defense pistol. I had them on my duty pistol for a couple of years and when I went to work for a different agency, I was issued a pistol without night sights. I got into my first shooting right after that and I had night sights installed the next day.
The argument that is often given, "If I can't see the target then I'm not going to shoot anyway" misses the point in my opinion. Of course you're not going to shoot! Night sights don't help you see the target, they help you see your sights and align them on the target.
All of my shootings were at night time, all were under lighting conditions such as street lights, porch lights, etc. where I could see the threat but picking up the sights and bringing them on target quickly under that lighting wasn't easy. That is why I immediately had night sights installed after the first shooting. Under those same lighting conditions I noticed that the sights literally jumped out at me once I had tritium in them.
There are lots of sight options with tritium - one dot in the front sight, Straight 8's, 3 dots, etc. but like any other piece of equipment, you've got to train with them.
My experience is that they are of benefit. My problem in the dark is wondering about the orientation of the pistol; that is, whether the barrel is parallel to the ground or oriented high or low to the target. With nightsights that is not a worry.
OK, you guys have convinced me. I just ordered night sights for my G17 and FNP.
I relent. I'm going with the flow. ;)
So, I just discovered that Ameriglos (the slanted ones) are incredibly easy to install. About 5 minutes, only things required were a punch, hammer and loctite. They are not as bright as the meprolights on my Kimber but still bright enough I think (those were not easy to install BTW- don't ask, lets just say it's a good thing I not all anal about a guns finish and looking pretty :rolleyes: and Kimbers require a special tool that is a must have).
I've found meps to be too bright.
Did you get the green/green or green/yellow?
I have all green on them. I sort of wanted to try the green/yellow but when you find $90 sights for $50 you just can't pass it up!
ETA: why do people really like the green/yellow anyways? I assumed just to make the front sight stand out that much more which makes some sense.
I have all green on them. I sort of wanted to try the green/yellow but when you find $90 sights for $50 you just can't pass it up!
ETA: why do people really like the green/yellow anyways? I assumed just to make the front sight stand out that much more which makes some sense.
That's exactly it. What I did with my green/green Meprolights was to color in the rear sights with a Sharpie. You can still see the rear sights in the dark, and it gives you a good front sight/rear sight contrast.
Well that brings up an interesting point that I actually forgot to mention, the front sight on the Ameriglo is just a bit brighter as it is- not a lot, but enough to notice in the dark. In the day light, there are white rings around the tritium inserts, and the front ring is also noticeably whiter and brighter.
I found that with a combination of Meprolights and no glasses that at night the rear sights would drown out the front sight for me. That was my original motivation for the Sharpie. I have since learned others do the same thing for the reasons I spoke of earlier.
Trijicon is the way to go. On a custom order avoid the white outlines. They tend to turn yellow or peal off in time.
John_Wayne777
12-08-07, 12:26
What are your thoughts on night sights? Part of me thinks that if it is so dark you can't see your sights, you can't ID a target either.
That's true in and of itself....but there are light techniques that teach you to identify a threat and engage the threat with the light OFF, which would require some way of indexing your pistol in the dark to deal with the threat. That's where night sights and lasers come into play.
And not all situations are like that. It could well be that the threat has more light on him than you do...enough to identify him as a threat but not enough to give you a good sight picture sans night sights.
So, on a carry gun I think I'd rather have them just in case, but I'm not convinced they are absolutely necassary either. What do you think?
I think they are a good idea.
Personally I prefer a glowing sight only for my front sight with a plain black rear because it makes the sight picture less confusing. That way the glowing dot is your front sight....you put it on the target and make a good trigger pull.
John_Wayne777
12-08-07, 12:30
There is no question night sights allow you to line up your sights under conditions which would be impossible with plain sights. The question for me is the conditions where night sights shine conditions under which I am likely to be engaged in a defensive shooting? So far, I've not found an instance where I would need night sights and not need a light to ID my target.
I used to think the same thing.....
When you use the LIE method taught by Vickers and Hackathorn you identify with the light and then turn OFF the light, move and engage sans light.
Speaking as somebody who did that with a pistol that had non-functional night sights, I can tell you it's a lot easier if your sights glow. :D
I'm surprised of the reports that Meprolight tritium inserts are really bright. Neither of the two I've had (on the same gun) were exceptionally bright when "new" (I suspect I got old stock both times).
I've got the second "dead" Mepro front night sight on a Kimber in about two years. The first one was invisible in total darkness in about six months. The replacement is dead now, about a year and a half later. The gun was sitting in a locked cabinet, minding its own business, so the insert could have been dead for quite a while; I'll never know for sure, I just know it's unusable now.
I will say that Kimber was really good about replacing the first sight. I just sent e-mail asking for options for a second replacement. I predict they will be good about it, but it's tiresome to have to keep replacing something so simple that should have lasted for several years in the first place.
By contrast, the night sights I've owned with Trijicon inserts have been first rate in all cases (at least half a dozen or more). Most of them found their way to my guns via Novak front sights, but they definitely say "Trijicon" in tiny white lettering on them.
I'd rather have a night sight that is "too bright" than one I can't see in complete darkness, much less dim light. For my needs, night sights are most useful in dim, diffuse light when I can see targets/threats well enough to identify them 100%, but I can't see my front sight. In complete darkness, I need my flashlight anyway, so it's not so much of an issue, but they need to be bright to see them in dim light. There are a surprising number of such lighting situations I've encountered: moonlight is a classic example; some parking lot lights (mostly fluorescents); etc.
John_Wayne777
12-08-07, 12:32
Hopefully this isn't a hijack, but I was wondering what the preference was as to brand and/or model of NS? I've only used Trijicons in the past but have recently decided to give XS Big Dots a shot at the suggestion of a fellow shooter. I really like the big bright front sight, but am having some problems adjusting to the wide open rear sight.
I've tried the XS system on handguns and I found it HARDER to index them than standard Trijicon sights. Yes, the front sight stands out but the dot the I design leaves too much room for error under stress, IMO.
I used to think the same thing.....
When you use the LIE method taught by Vickers and Hackathorn you identify with the light and then turn OFF the light, move and engage sans light.
Speaking as somebody who did that with a pistol that had non-functional night sights, I can tell you it's a lot easier if your sights glow. :D
This thread has been here for a year and a half, and you only quoted one of my responses. Geez.;)
I relented. I said I'd go with the flow!:eek:
John_Wayne777
12-08-07, 14:21
This thread has been here for a year and a half, and you only quoted one of my responses. Geez.;)
I had no idea this was a zombie thread.
I relented. I said I'd go with the flow!:eek:
*Heavy german accent*
You vill have more kool-aid now! You vill drink it und you vill like it!
By contrast, the night sights I've owned with Trijicon inserts have been first rate in all cases (at least half a dozen or more).
This has been my experience also. I only use Trijicon sights or inserts after seeing quite a few Meps die on agency issued Glocks.
citadelshooter
12-09-07, 20:30
After reading the last three pages, I have now settled my internal argument for/against on a handgun. Recently, I had a conversation with my wife (who doesn't shoot alot) after purchasing a Glock 34 for competition use and also for an extra Glock platform to go with my already trusty (and worn) G19. She asked me, "Are you putting night sights on this gun?" I said, "maybe." She said, "You're dumb if you don't, you might have to use it for other things." The past four days since this conversation I have struggled with what type of sights to get and to have tritium inserts or not. I have now come to this conclusion:
1. Tritium inserts on sights are a must, no matter what type of sight.
2. Have them on one gun, have them on all.
3. Listen to your wife, she is wise grasshoppa!! (It is very hard to admit this...)
To the previous posters - your life experiences bring alot to this thread.
This is a VALUABLE THREAD!! Make it "Sticky"!
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