AR Crossroads

[soapboxpreacherman]

I posted this elsewhere for I am trying to get as much feedback from the best places as I can so I apologize in advance. I am new here and somewhat new to ARs. So mine knowledge might need some educations. Here we go:

Ok so I have been reading, researching, lurking...you name it!. I have learned a lot and I am faced with a tough decision. I have would like to do one of two things...possible three. I am heavily weighing a PWS MK114 and add a SSA Trigger, SOPMOD stock, and some Troy Flip Battlesights. Seems like a nice setup and would come in around 2K. Or a BCM build out, battlecomp 1.5, Sopmod (LMT Lower or like), Troy Flips, DD quad, and finally just get a KAC SR15 and be done with it. All these rifles will be around the same dollar amount when I am done. So it is the 2K challenge. The Piston throws this into a difficult area but I believe it should not be ruled out. One rifle is a piston the others are DIs. All very good. I dont know which one is most accurate, lightest, best muzzle control or lightest recoil. I will be using a QD sling in a 2 point. So that is another consideration. Weight in and let me know what you guys are thinking. I ruled out the SCAR and I am selling my ACR and SR556C. So this will be my one and only AR then I move on to an AK. Wife is cracking down and will only allow one in the AR category. Once again your assistance is welcome...Thanks!

[PrivateCitizen]

Just 1 AR?

BCM Mid (14.5/16) + BCG, Battlecomp, DD 1.5 rear, FSB sight, Aimpoint H1, MOE, stock of choice. Good light. Mags. Ammo.

Flips, triggers, rails, levers, handles, etc is just felgercarb that complicates things. Fine for subsequent builds …

When one is the number, KISS is the rule.

[Mr. Goodtimes]

Buy a 16in LW BFH upper from BCM and a BCM lower w/ Giesselle SSA-E with a good stock. I'm partial to the VLTOR E-MOD/I-MOD. You can get the lower from G&R.

It sounds like you're really hell bent on that PWS gun. It's a complete waste of money. Get the LW BCM upper and put a quality FF rail on it like the DD Lite rail or RIS II. I have a Larue 11in on my middy and love it. The Larue rails are great, just a little heavier than the DD Lite rail. Throw in a BCM BCG and Gunfighter charging handle, T1, X300, Troy BUIS and you're cookin with gas.

Adding a Battlecomp or other device to mitigate recoil would be somewhere near the bottom of my priority list but if you have the money go for it. You may even be able to find a 16in BCM middy upper with a Lite rail already installed which is the way I would go. I would strongly suggest not going 14.5. If a year or two down the road you decide to change rails, muzzle devices etc, it's going to be a real pain in the ass to do so.

[fdxpilot]

You would have to add just about every expensive option available to get a BCM 16" middie up to $2K.

[soapboxpreacherman]

You would have to add just about every expensive option available to get a BCM 16" middie up to $2K.

You might be right but let me check:

BCM Upper w DD Lite 12" $875.00
BCM Lower $340
BCM Bolt Carrier Group (MPI): $199
Geissele SSA Trigger: &170
LMT SOPMOD Stock: $199
Hogue Grip: $22
Troy Flip Battlesights: $199
Magpul Pmags: $17
BCMGUNFIGHTER Charging Handle: $45
BattleComp: $150

$2216

I might be missing something or there could be a better way to go but...I think I am close. This is a very nice rifle. However, at that price I am very heavily considering if not go with a KAC SR15.

If I dressed out the PWS MK114 $1450 the same:
SOPMOD: $199
Geissele SSA Trigger: $170
Hogue Grip: $22
Troy Flip Battlesights: $199

This is a bad ass rifle too! MK Already has a great buffer tube, no castle nut/QD, SM556, etc

$2040

SR15: $1999 (Does anyone know the weight on this rifle)

So that is it for the numbers...unless I am wrong. I do have some questions:

Weights of each? MK114 is around 6lbs 13oz...but add the stock and it is just over 7lbs...SR15 cant find any info on it:

Which is most accurate? I would assume the BCM and the SR15 and PWS would be similar

Recoil...have no idea??

[rob_s]

I am... ...somewhat new to ARs.

Can you better define your prior experience with the platform? All too often what this means to people is "I've been reading alot on the internut", not necessarily "I've been going to the range with some friends and shooting their guns". These are vastly different experiences.

Without knowing that, I'm going to give you the stock answer:

Buy a quality basic gun
Buy 10 magazines. Buy 20 if you can. 30 is better still.
Buy 2k rounds of ammo.
If you can afford one right out of the gate, get a red dot sight.
Go take a training class.
Go practice what you learned at the training class.


My specific brand recommendations:

Daniel Defense (http://www.policeguns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=16_327&products_id=6495&osCsid=fv77ajeq7b3puvr33faiqsr876), BCM (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Mid-16LW-Light-weight-AR15-Bravo-Company-s/148.htm), Colt (http://www.policeguns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=16_236&products_id=6615&osCsid=fv77ajeq7b3puvr33faiqsr876), Noveske (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=lrb-556&cat=138&page=1&search=&since=&status=), or LMT (http://www.policeguns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=16_304&products_id=6025&osCsid=fv77ajeq7b3puvr33faiqsr876). If you can't afford a basic gun from one of them buy a Spike's Tactical (http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/st15-midlength-le-carbine-p-443.html) or a Smith & Wesson M&P (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765651_-1_757785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y). If it doesn't come with a rear sight make sure you get one of those too. If it comes with an A2 grip replace it with something cheap like the Magpul MOE (http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG415/61) and install a gapper (http://www.ergogrips.net/item-detail.cfm?ID=4085&storeid=1&image=gapper.gif&CFID=4360214&CFTOKEN=34346830).
Magpul Pmags (http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG211/3) are a good starting place.
Federal XM193 (http://www.federalpremium.com/resources/xm193.aspx) is a good balance between cost and quality. If you can afford it, buy some Asym training ammo (http://store.chencustom.com/category_s/109.htm) instead.
The Aimpoint C3 (http://www.aimpoint.com/us/products/all-products/product-singleview/product/CompC3/?pid=340&damcat=113) model is a good lower-cost alternative. You're going to need a good mount. The Larue (http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=26) is the standard for a reason.
You'd be hard pressed to find an instructor that can teach you the fundamentals better than Randy Cain of Cumberland Tactics (http://www.guntactics.com/).

[ZRH]

You might be right but let me check:

BCM Upper w DD Lite 12" $875.00 Do you need 12" of rail? Compelling reason would be living in NY. Get something with a FSB otherwise.
BCM Lower $340
BCM Bolt Carrier Group (MPI): $199 You mean $139, $199 is for the ionbonded BCG which isn't important when starting out
Geissele SSA Trigger: &170 You don't have an AR and you want a match trigger? You can upgrade later.
LMT SOPMOD Stock: $199 Sopmod is nice, but again, plain old M4 stock is just fine unless it's super uncomfortable. This is really an individual thing though and comfort is actually important.
Hogue Grip: $22
Troy Flip Battlesights: $199 with a FSB you only need a rear one $119
Magpul Pmags: $17
<s>BCMGUNFIGHTER Charging Handle: $45</s>$29 for stock charging handle
<s>BattleComp: $150</s> You have no idea what the recoil is but you want this off the bat? You can always get one later, the A2 birdcage is highly effective.

$2216 -150 -16 -170 = $1820, with a FSB it's 1740.

I might be missing something or there could be a better way to go but...I think I am close. This is a very nice rifle. However, at that price I am very heavily considering if not go with a KAC SR15.

If I dressed out the PWS MK114 $1450 the same:
SOPMOD: $199
Geissele SSA Trigger: $170
Hogue Grip: $22
Troy Flip Battlesights: $199

This is a bad ass rifle too! MK Already has a great buffer tube, no castle nut/QD, SM556, etc

$2040

SR15: $1999 (Does anyone know the weight on this rifle)

So that is it for the numbers...unless I am wrong. I do have some questions:

Weights of each? MK114 is around 6lbs 13oz...but add the stock and it is just over 7lbs...SR15 cant find any info on it:

Which is most accurate? I would assume the BCM and the SR15 and PWS would be similar

Recoil...have no idea??
Weights https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ajl2UPK0UHPsdHNVX2tBak9OS29HR2ZrRFBhUVpYMVE&hl=en#gid=0

I would get a button rifled barrel and a 9.0 rail which is around a $180 cheaper, or ditch the rail completely until I needed it, scratch $300 right there. FSB is really up to you. You are not going to benefit significantly from a two stage trigger as a beginner, same thing with a Battlecomp (and arguably a SOPMOD). They are stuff that's nice, but not essential. I'd take that $500 and get light and an aimpoint.

ETA: What rob ninja-ed in before me is also good advice. Forget some people don't have takeoff parts laying around >.>

ETA2: Believe me, even a stock AR-15 is gonna be mad fun to shoot, the faster you can get practicing the better off you are. Don't forget to get a sling, often overlooked but makes carrying a lot easier and is an essential piece of gear.

[MistWolf]

...You are not going to benefit significantly from a two stage trigger as a beginner...

The advantage of the Geisselle isn't that it's a 2 stage, it's that it's predictable, consistent. The E version is also very crisp.

The SSA is the perfect trigger for the beginner. It's break is heavy enough with just a bit of creep to require a deliberate squeeze and it's utter predictability means the neophyte doesn't lose focus wondering when the trigger will break

[rob_s]

The SSA is the perfect trigger for the beginner. It's break is heavy enough with just a bit of creep to require a deliberate squeeze and it's utter predictability means the neophyte doesn't lose focus wondering when the trigger will break

Strongly disagree.

[jwperry]

Buy a quality basic gun
Buy 10 magazines. Buy 20 if you can. 30 is better still.
Buy 2k rounds of ammo.
If you can afford one right out of the gate, get a red dot sight.
Go take a training class.
Go practice what you learned at the training class.



Golden recommendation.

[ZRH]

The advantage of the Geisselle isn't that it's a 2 stage, it's that it's predictable, consistent. The E version is also very crisp.

The SSA is the perfect trigger for the beginner. It's break is heavy enough with just a bit of creep to require a deliberate squeeze and it's utter predictability means the neophyte doesn't lose focus wondering when the trigger will break
$170
= 500 rounds of ammo
= 10 pmags
+ cleaning kit

Which assuming you are starting out is super useful. There is also a school of thought about not anticipating the trigger but it's kinda OT for this thread.

[Fire_Medic]

It's very hard to disagree with Rob's recommendation, and I am glad on my first rifle I listened to him.

After taking Randy's class, which is also a great class to drill the fundamentals in to you, I learned a lot about myself, they way the platform works, and what I wanted/needed in a rifle. Most of what I originally "thought" I needed was wrong for me, but I thought I needed it because I read of so many others using it.

Money would be better spent on training/ammo at the get go, than on hanging every do dad you can on the rifle. Something else Randy strongly suggested to me and I am glad I listened was to shoot his class with irons only, man was it a pain in the rear the first day or so, but then you get the hang of it, and when someone finally slaps a red dot on your rifle watch out.

You're going to get a million different recommendations on what to do with your money for your rifle, and you won't most likely agree with the few who recommend the basics, because your rifle won't look as cool in the picture thread as most of the other kiddies out on the playground.

Just my $0.02

[Failure2Stop]

rob gives some very sound advice.
I recommend on figuring out what your platform will do, and what it could do better before throwing a bunch of variables at it that you might not need, want, or appreciate before you get a decent skillset.

Lotsa people get pissed when I imply that they might not be getting the most out of a basic platform because they lack skill.
The most important aspect of marksmanship is not the weapon, but rather the shooter. Develop the shooter and let your skill set tell you what material solutions need to be made.

[soapboxpreacherman]

Golden recommendation.

Already have 2 quality "Basic...not so basic" guns, several mags (7), have done a class (ok been a long while), use an Eotech 512, and have 2K in ammo....the more I think about it, I am not that much of a beginner...yet still consider myself green. I am wanting to stop screwing around and get a very nice AR and avoid upgradidous. I have the means and the time. Once I get the AR I want I will then do another carbine course with the new rifle.

[Cylinder Head]

I got my KAC SR-15 for $1800 shipped and it has been absolutely perfect. No need to do anything to the rifle out of the gate (although I did swap out the trigger for a Geissele SD-E that is totally unnecessary and only sated my need to tinker).

[rob_s]

Already have 2 quality "Basic...not so basic" guns, several mags (7), have done a class (ok been a long while), use an Eotech 512, and have 2K in ammo....the more I think about it, I am not that much of a beginner...yet still consider myself green. I am wanting to stop screwing around and get a very nice AR and avoid upgradidous. I have the means and the time. Once I get the AR I want I will then do another carbine course with the new rifle.

In that case, the question changes a bit.

What do you find lacking in the two ARs you currently have? How are they configured, and what are they not doing for you?

The KAC SR15 is an easy answer to throw at a lot of people. Other than some parts compatibility issues and a tendency for earlier guns to have some problems running low-pressure ammo, there really isn't much not to like about them. Given the features they have they are actually a bargain and are pretty lightweight.

[lifebreath]

I'm just a noob, but I'll spout off ...

It seems you are describing the SR-15, which I recently bought. It's light, has the free floating mid-length RAS, SOPMOD, excellent 2-stage trigger, mid-gas system, QD mount points at the butt, on the lower receiver next to the receiver end plate, and front and back of the rails, slick integrated flip-up front sight and a nice rear folding sight, and ambi controls. With the BattleComp, there's no muzzle rise and the mid-gas has a little softer feel.

[arizonaranchman]

Just 1 AR?

BCM Mid (14.5/16) + BCG, Battlecomp, DD 1.5 rear, FSB sight, Aimpoint H1, MOE, stock of choice. Good light. Mags. Ammo.

Flips, triggers, rails, levers, handles, etc is just felgercarb that complicates things. Fine for subsequent builds …

When one is the number, KISS is the rule.

I agree, keep it simple.

[Failure2Stop]

Already have 2 quality "Basic...not so basic" guns, several mags (7), have done a class (ok been a long while), use an Eotech 512, and have 2K in ammo....the more I think about it, I am not that much of a beginner...yet still consider myself green. I am wanting to stop screwing around and get a very nice AR and avoid upgradidous. I have the means and the time. Once I get the AR I want I will then do another carbine course with the new rifle.

Ah.
Well, again, I find myself agreeing with Rob (I have to make a note to stop that).

I have a soft spot for the SR15, I consider it to be the most evolved AR platform. There are others that might beat it in specific areas, but pound for pound, I don't think that there is anything out there that is demonstratably "superior".

I change my opinion on this every couple of years, but if I had it all to do over again I would just buy an SR15 and swap the A2 pistol grip for a MIAD. Maybe, just maybe, drop in an applicable Geissele.

[soapboxpreacherman]

Weights https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ajl2UPK0UHPsdHNVX2tBak9OS29HR2ZrRFBhUVpYMVE&hl=en#gid=0

I would get a button rifled barrel and a 9.0 rail which is around a $180 cheaper, or ditch the rail completely until I needed it, scratch $300 right there. FSB is really up to you. You are not going to benefit significantly from a two stage trigger as a beginner, same thing with a Battlecomp (and arguably a SOPMOD). They are stuff that's nice, but not essential. I'd take that $500 and get light and an aimpoint.

ETA: What rob ninja-ed in before me is also good advice. Forget some people don't have takeoff parts laying around >.>

ETA2: Believe me, even a stock AR-15 is gonna be mad fun to shoot, the faster you can get practicing the better off you are. Don't forget to get a sling, often overlooked but makes carrying a lot easier and is an essential piece of gear.

Thank ZRH for the sheet...I already have it but forgot all the info on it. I think you guys are kinda missing my point. I have the mean but based on the comparable SR15 which has much of what I would put in a build such as 2-stage trigger, SOPMOD, etc...when I look at this and realize a complete rifle from KAC would be cheaper, lighter...what am I really getting with the BCM??? Yes I could skip do lesser add on but why when I can have them and still be cheaper? Are you guys following me on this?

[Cylinder Head]

I change my opinion on this every couple of years, but if I had it all to do over again I would just buy an SR15 and swap the A2 pistol grip for a MIAD. Maybe, just maybe, drop in an applicable Geissele.

So.... let me know when you want to borrow mine.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d82/youreallclones/photo-38.jpg

[soapboxpreacherman]

In that case, the question changes a bit.

What do you find lacking in the two ARs you currently have? How are they configured, and what are they not doing for you?

The KAC SR15 is an easy answer to throw at a lot of people. Other than some parts compatibility issues and a tendency for earlier guns to have some problems running low-pressure ammo, there really isn't much not to like about them. Given the features they have they are actually a bargain and are pretty lightweight.

As I might have already explained, what I find lacking is: Balance, Weight, Muzzle Climb (This isnt lacking there is just more then I want on the SR556C), recoil impulse, etc. But I do see what you are saying and that is why I am strongly considering the SR15...there is very little more to do to it....it is very much so a complete package without having to go back and start adding extras. I hear so many say "if I had to start over". My only issue with the SR15 are the sights...I have never seen one so I have no idea how I will like them. The seem similar to the Scar sights...which I really like!!!! So if the front sight is decent this rifle might be the one! I also am wondering about muzzle climb on it in addition to accuracy. I here about how soft it shoots but having read much on muzzle climb but I have heard mixed on accuracy.

[soapboxpreacherman]

So.... let me know when you want to borrow mine.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d82/youreallclones/photo-38.jpg

NICE!!!!! I like the inside dust cover writing...HAHAHA!

[Cylinder Head]

As I might have already explained, what I find lacking is: Balance, Weight, Muzzle Climb (This isnt lacking there is just more then I want on the SR556C), recoil impulse, etc. But I do see what you are saying and that is why I am strongly considering the SR15...there is very little more to do to it....it is very much so a complete package without having to go back and start adding extras. I hear so many say "if I had to start over". My only issue with the SR15 are the sights...I have never seen one so I have no idea how I will like them. The seem similar to the Scar sights...which I really like!!!! So if the front sight is decent this rifle might be the one! I also am wondering about muzzle climb on it in addition to accuracy. I here about how soft it shoots but having read much on muzzle climb but I have heard mixed on accuracy.

I put a Battlecomp 1.0 on mine before I ever shot it so I have no idea what this "muzzle climb" thing you're talking about is. There is none.

The irons are excellent, some (including myself) have had to adjust the windage knob upwards of 15 clicks from mechanical zero to get them lined up, but other than that I love mine.

[soapboxpreacherman]

I put a Battlecomp 1.0 on mine before I ever shot it so I have no idea what this "muzzle climb" thing you're talking about is. There is none.

The irons are excellent, some (including myself) have had to adjust the windage knob upwards of 15 clicks from mechanical zero to get them lined up, but other than that I love mine.

How is the accuracy?

[SWATcop556]

More accurate than 99% of the shooters out there. It's a damn good rifle and I feel (as do others) it is the next step inthe evolution of the platform.

[soapboxpreacherman]

More accurate than 99% of the shooters out there. It's a damn good rifle and I feel (as do others) it is the next step inthe evolution of the platform.

WOW...thanks Swat! I really like the SR15...it seems to be climbing up to my pick. I am getting some mixed comments on the other forums on the PWS...it is good but it isnt as perfect as some have made it out to be. I initially heard no carrier tilt in there design and now others are posting some pictures of it however this is not on a MK114 but on a DC-12 upper so this might not be typical on the MK114. I have also heard that some of the gas push back down the barrel, making the DC-12 upper not as clean as some of the other short stroke uppers.

[Failure2Stop]

Unless you are shooting a 10.5" barrel suppressed and unsuppressed, a piston shoved into an AR is wasted money and weight. Lots of us also jumped onto the piston bandwagon after using 416s, only to discover that it wasn't any help unless under very specific conditions. Emotional investment aside, that is.

[Failure2Stop]

Unless you are shooting a 10.5" barrel suppressed and unsuppressed, a piston shoved into an AR is wasted money and weight. Lots of us also jumped onto the piston bandwagon after using 416s, only to discover that it wasn't any help unless under very specific conditions. Emotional investment aside, that is.

[ZRH]

Thank ZRH for the sheet...I already have it but forgot all the info on it. I think you guys are kinda missing my point. I have the mean but based on the comparable SR15 which has much of what I would put in a build such as 2-stage trigger, SOPMOD, etc...when I look at this and realize a complete rifle from KAC would be cheaper, lighter...what am I really getting with the BCM??? Yes I could skip do lesser add on but why when I can have them and still be cheaper? Are you guys following me on this?
I thought you were getting a beginners rifle, you've added more info since then. :p KAC SR-15 is a great rifle.

[SWATcop556]

As F2S said unless you are running a suppressed SBR I see absolutely no reason to run a piston AR. Even then my SBRs have run fine suppressed and they are DI. IMO unless you are running a genuine HK 416 for a very specific role the piston is a quickly passing fad. I have yet to find something a piston does my DIs can't.

People that say "well I don't have to clean my piston rifle as much" is a weak excuse to run an inferior design. Most popular piston designs have had many issues and setbacks.

Either the SR15 or build up a BCM, DD, Noveske to your liking.

[MistWolf]

About the only thing I see that a "piston" AR can do better than a "DI" is adding unneeded weight to your rifle

[Ironbutt]

Can you better define your prior experience with the platform? All too often what this means to people is "I've been reading alot on the internut", not necessarily "I've been going to the range with some friends and shooting their guns". These are vastly different experiences.

Without knowing that, I'm going to give you the stock answer:

Buy a quality basic gun
Buy 10 magazines. Buy 20 if you can. 30 is better still.
Buy 2k rounds of ammo.
If you can afford one right out of the gate, get a red dot sight.
Go take a training class.
Go practice what you learned at the training class.


My specific brand recommendations:

Daniel Defense (http://www.policeguns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=16_327&products_id=6495&osCsid=fv77ajeq7b3puvr33faiqsr876), BCM (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Mid-16LW-Light-weight-AR15-Bravo-Company-s/148.htm), Colt (http://www.policeguns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=16_236&products_id=6615&osCsid=fv77ajeq7b3puvr33faiqsr876), Noveske (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=lrb-556&cat=138&page=1&search=&since=&status=), or LMT (http://www.policeguns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=16_304&products_id=6025&osCsid=fv77ajeq7b3puvr33faiqsr876). If you can't afford a basic gun from one of them buy a Spike's Tactical (http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/st15-midlength-le-carbine-p-443.html) or a Smith & Wesson M&P (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765651_-1_757785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y). If it doesn't come with a rear sight make sure you get one of those too. If it comes with an A2 grip replace it with something cheap like the Magpul MOE (http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG415/61) and install a gapper (http://www.ergogrips.net/item-detail.cfm?ID=4085&storeid=1&image=gapper.gif&CFID=4360214&CFTOKEN=34346830).
Magpul Pmags (http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG211/3) are a good starting place.
Federal XM193 (http://www.federalpremium.com/resources/xm193.aspx) is a good balance between cost and quality. If you can afford it, buy some Asym training ammo (http://store.chencustom.com/category_s/109.htm) instead.
The Aimpoint C3 (http://www.aimpoint.com/us/products/all-products/product-singleview/product/CompC3/?pid=340&damcat=113) model is a good lower-cost alternative. You're going to need a good mount. The Larue (http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=26) is the standard for a reason.
You'd be hard pressed to find an instructor that can teach you the fundamentals better than Randy Cain of Cumberland Tactics (http://www.guntactics.com/).


^^^That's all good advice.!

[mikeahe]

I would recommend the BCM E.A.G. carbine. Everything you need, and nothing you don't.

Mike
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

[Facejackets]

Sounds like you have had your mind made up already.

If you have the means, just go for it.