View Full Version : Ranger +P+ 9mm a question
Many years ago, 20? I introduced the 127g WW Ranger +P+ to City Police Firearms Instructor, he looked into the studies of this, and other 9mm hollow points.
They went to this round, for their Sig226 pistols, and their MP 5 Sub Guns. After failures in the MP 5s, knocking them to bits! Changed the sub gun ammo.
I have carried this self same round, and still do. Now I find it difficult to find, but did pick up the same cartridge, but in 147g, 150 rounds.
Question, is one as good as the other? Or stay with 127g? If I can chase it down. Or use the 147g Ranger, which I can get.
My agency used 127gr+P+ for a while. It seemed to really wear out our Sigs fast, and we had to bump up the regular service schedule to 3000rds. I prefer 124gr+P Gold Dots, 147gr Ranger Talons, or 147gr HSTs.
From a ballistics study standpoint, there isn't much point to it. The only real difference between a standard pressure load , and a +P+ load is its impact energy which is relatively small. They both make similar sized holes, and have similar penetration levels depending on the weight of the bullet. The only measurable difference from an energy standpoint is in the temporary stretch cavity which surrounds the bullet. Martin Fackler has demonstrated in IWBA publications that it takes a cartridge similar to rifle ballistics for the temporary stretch cavity to have any incapacitating effects. Another factor is the diameter of the projectile which makes a "wake" in its path. Larger calibers do more. Even the .357magnum has had spectacular failures to stop in OISs. The reason the .357mag got such a good reputation in the 1970s and 1980s is that it had the impact energy to open up early hollow point designs reliably. Now days, JHPs are engineered much better and all that extra velocity isn't needed.
My agency used 127gr+P+ for a while. It seemed to really wear out our Sigs fast, and we had to bump up the regular service schedule to 3000rds. I prefer 124gr+P Gold Dots, 147gr Ranger Talons, or 147gr HSTs.
From a ballistics study standpoint, there isn't much point to it. The only real difference between a standard pressure load , and a +P+ load is its impact energy which is relatively small. They both make similar sized holes, and have similar penetration levels depending on the weight of the bullet. The only measurable difference from an energy standpoint is in the temporary stretch cavity which surrounds the bullet. Martin Fackler has demonstrated in IWBA publications that it takes a cartridge similar to rifle ballistics for the temporary stretch cavity to have any incapacitating effects. Another factor is the diameter of the projectile which makes a "wake" in its path. Larger calibers do more. Even the .357magnum has had spectacular failures to stop in OISs. The reason the .357mag got such a good reputation in the 1970s and 1980s is that it had the impact energy to open up early hollow point designs reliably. Now days, JHPs are engineered much better and all that extra velocity isn't needed.
KahnRad,
I absolutely agree with your post! I would add one thought, the only way plus P plus might have an advantage in most likely the case, 127g,weight IMHO, penetration of a windshield? But again, it would have to be slight, and so much would depend on the angle of the shot.
Did your Agency jump on to the .40S&W band wagon? And as a dedicated GlockOholic! The +P+ would not have increased the wear factor shooting +P+ 127s,, as it did in your 226s, polymer frame flexes, the unique bore configuration, and cold hammer forging that giver's a denser, stronger steel, of the barrel... OK enough already!
If your Wife sat you down to watch the Royal Wedding, you might have herd reference to Harry promising "Bacon Buttys" to all, for breakfast!
I just had one, with brewed coffee!
Watch your six.
Did your Agency jump on to the .40S&W band wagon? And as a dedicated GlockOholic! The +P+ would not have increased the wear factor shooting +P+ 127s,, as it did in your 226s, polymer frame flexes, the unique bore configuration, and cold hammer forging that giver's a denser, stronger steel, of the barrel... OK enough already!
We have a choice between 9mm, .40, and .45. Most officers are using .40, but in the Sig I prefer 9mm. I'm a better shooter with the P220 .45, so I've been using that lately.
The wear factor has more to do with abuse on small parts. When the slide cycles, it slams harder to the rear putting greater impact on the frame insert and slide rails. This in turn puts more stress on the take down lever, roll pins, frame, and wears out the locking lugs of the barrel. So, even if you replace the small parts over time, the mating surfaces of the pistol will open up and cause function and accuracy problems. Even on a Glock, this would put additional stress on the frame rail inserts(flex or not), and greater impact on the barrel and frame insert surfaces. You are right though that in general the Glock handles it better.
The 127gr load doesn't do any better than any other 9mm loads against windshields. The problem is that the hard windshield materials rips apart the bullet and turns it into fragments causing shallow penetration. Usually, the faster the bullet travels the more violent the bullet breakup. A 147gr Ranger Talon tends to do a little better against windshields than the 127gr load because it has greater momentum and mass to keep it penetrating. The only way to really make the bullet do better is to make its construction more robust so that it stays together better. Bonded bullets are an improvement.
Check out Winchester's "Launch Testing Comparison Tool" and you will get a better idea of how each load performs:
http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/Pages/ammunition-testing.aspx
We have a choice between 9mm, .40, and .45. Most officers are using .40, but in the Sig I prefer 9mm. I'm a better shooter with the P220 .45, so I've been using that lately.
The wear factor has more to do with abuse on small parts. When the slide cycles, it slams harder to the rear putting greater impact on the frame insert and slide rails. This in turn puts more stress on the take down lever, roll pins, frame, and wears out the locking lugs of the barrel. So, even if you replace the small parts over time, the mating surfaces of the pistol will open up and cause function and accuracy problems. Even on a Glock, this would put additional stress on the frame rail inserts(flex or not), and greater impact on the barrel and frame insert surfaces. You are right though that in general the Glock handles it better.
The 127gr load doesn't do any better than any other 9mm loads against windshields. The problem is that the hard windshield materials rips apart the bullet and turns it into fragments causing shallow penetration. Usually, the faster the bullet travels the more violent the bullet breakup. A 147gr Ranger Talon tends to do a little better against windshields than the 127gr load because it has greater momentum and mass to keep it penetrating. The only way to really make the bullet do better is to make its construction more robust so that it stays together better. Bonded bullets are an improvement.
Check out Winchester's "Launch Testing Comparison Tool" and you will get a better idea of how each load performs:
http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/Pages/ammunition-testing.aspx
Thank you, will do.
I use the same system with bullets, as I do with fighting without guns, hit/hit/ and hit again. Incapacitate the closest, strongest, move on.
But now as a nice old granddad, smile, and watch.
Forgeting about wear and tear, is the 127 +P+ a better personal defense round that the 124 +P? If so why, if not why?
Why don't you do this and let us know what you find:
"Check out Winchester's "Launch Testing Comparison Tool" and you will get a better idea of how each load performs: http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf"
Good chart,and confirms exactly what I discovered.I carried the 127+P+ for a number of years until I saw firsthand how the 147's were performing. Now it's RA9T and HST 147's exclusively for defense loads.
Many years ago, 20? I introduced the 127g WW Ranger +P+ to City Police Firearms Instructor, he looked into the studies of this, and other 9mm hollow points.
They went to this round, for their Sig226 pistols, and their MP 5 Sub Guns. After failures in the MP 5s, knocking them to bits! Changed the sub gun ammo.
I have carried this self same round, and still do. Now I find it difficult to find, but did pick up the same cartridge, but in 147g, 150 rounds.
Question, is one as good as the other? Or stay with 127g? If I can chase it down. Or use the 147g Ranger, which I can get.
I do know that the locking piece needs to be changed on MP5's relative to the ammo utilized. I don't have specifics, but others may.
We have used the 127+p+ for a long time and zero issues with the Glocks, NATO pressure ball is used on all practices also. The NATO pressure ball did beat the old SW's to death in short order.
I'm sure this depends on unit practices, etc. But the famed durability of the P226 isn't what some may think it is. I've been through some schools with certain units and have seen first hand parts, including slides being replaced every 3-5k on them. This applied to the stamped ones, not the solid ones that have been about for a while. Of course as with any platform, recoil springs are a highly neglected item which doesn't help when not replaced.
http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=135:guide-to-hk-locking-pieces&catid=4:special-topics&Itemid=5
Why don't you do this and let us know what you find:
Looks like the +P+ has a slight advanage to the 124 +P. The 147's are up further. My issue is that I have feeding problems with all147 gr I have tried in my PPS. They work well in my G17 and G34 but not the PPS or the HP's.
Thanks for the info. Any other MFG charts like this?
I'm sure this depends on unit practices, etc. But the famed durability of the P226 isn't what some may think it is. I've been through some schools with certain units and have seen first hand parts, including slides being replaced every 3-5k on them. This applied to the stamped ones, not the solid ones that have been about for a while.
If they were training with 9mm NATO, I can see how they were getting premature parts breakages. Most contract stuff runs around 32k psi and +P velocities(around 1250fps), depending on the country and year of manufacture. IMI stuff usually runs up to 36k psi and will throw a 124gr bullet almost 1350fps from a M9. That's +P+ pressures and velocity. We switched to only standard pressure 147gr eight years ago and haven't had any problems with our stamped slide Sigs meeting the 5k round service interval. The newer machined slides should in theory be better, but due to Sig's poor quality controls as of late I'd opt for a old stamped slide Sig any day.
If they were training with 9mm NATO, I can see how they were getting premature parts breakages. Most contract stuff runs around 32k psi and +P velocities(around 1250fps), depending on the country and year of manufacture. IMI stuff usually runs up to 36k psi and will throw a 124gr bullet almost 1350fps from a M9. That's +P+ pressures and velocity. We switched to only standard pressure 147gr eight years ago and haven't had any problems with our stamped slide Sigs meeting the 5k round service interval. The newer machined slides should in theory be better, but due to Sig's poor quality controls as of late I'd opt for a old stamped slide Sig any day.
The Gen4 Glock 19 has a problem with the cheaper WalMart 9mm, but tames P+P loads very well, reduces the felt recoil.
Plus the new recivers are great. All the improvements we have asked for for years! Right there. TruGlow sights, the last improvement required. I know good shooters, issued Sig 226s, do well, and master the first round abomination, then to single action, for the second shot, but it is still silly.
The manipulation of the trigger is the most crucial of all shooting skills! Go to the boring exercise, that all Cops HATE! Shooting dots at 7 yds!
Add a crappy trigger to the mix? Not good. A 2" dot at 5m, the across the kitchen shot into an eye socket, to me, a crucial skill. Domestics anyone?
And with your service pistol, and issue ammunition.
Whatever ammo you choose, make sure to try out a couple of boxes in your personal weapon of choice. I tried the +P+ and the 147 gr Winchesters in my Glock 19 and 26. I didn't have any failures with either ammo, but the +P+ ejected brass either over my head, or back into my face. Since I don't plan to always have eye pro :blink: on when I carry, I chose the 147gr. Just one more thing to consider when choosing ammo.
http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf
Do either of these rounds (127gr. +P+ vs. 147gr.) out perform the other against automobiles, deflection on bone or penetration in flesh?
The 147 gr is generally a bit better.
http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf
Thanks for the follow up.
Thanks for the follow up.
Both are blank - I think they may be restricted for LE.
Thanks for trying
The 147 gr is generally a bit better.
Excellent. Which 147 gr. do you prefer?
Excellent. Which 147 gr. do you prefer?
Heavier bullets are also better against internal bone structure since they retain more momentum. I remember an old post by Dr. Roberts talking about an FBI test against a human femur incased in ballistic gel. The heavier 9mm load did better than the lighter one, and the .45acp went clean through. The Canadians did a similar study in the mid 1990s and came to similar conclusions.
Paul45--the files are not restricted, nor are they blank; clicking on the link downloads a .pdf file onto your computer. I just did it on two different non-LE civilian computers here at work.
Any of the 9 mm loads listed work, regardless of bullet weight, and I would have no problems being issued any of them.
When specifically discussing 147 gr loads, agencies in this area have had superb success with the Fed HST 147 gr P9HST2, as well as the Win 147 gr RA9T.
I am awaiting my 150 rounds of Ranger T 147g at this time.
Will test fire for point of impact, replace my rounds in my carry RTF Generation 3, including the G17 spare magazine, with the 147g rounds. Somebody's motto was "When you care, send the very best"?
What load do you recommend for a 3"?
What load do you recommend for a 3"?
Same ammo, the shorter barrels don't make any noticeable difference in 9mm.
Both are blank - I think they may be restricted for LE.
Thanks for trying
yep - blank on both terminals here, too:(
john
Beat Trash
05-03-11, 21:25
I'm at home, off duty, using my personal computer. I was able to download both pdf files that Doc linked.
It took a second or two longer to download, but informative.
The links work you must be patient.
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