View Full Version : Recoil Reducing Stock vs. Technique
In order to stop the thread derail in the other thread, I figured I would start this so that we could continue the discussion without trashing the OP's thread.
AI&P, again, you state that these other techniques do not do as good as these stocks at reducing recoil and muzzle flip. The issue is that YOU ADMIT YOU ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THESE OTHER TECHNIQUES. How are we supposed to lend you any credibility whatsoever when by your own admission, you are not familiar with these techniques.
It is ridiculous for you to say that the stock is better when, again by your own admission, you do not know what you are comparing the stock to. I have used both the stock and these other techniques. I have not taken one class from one instructor as you said. You would do well to not make large assumptions.
It would be as if I said that Ford is better than Chevy and then admit I've never seen or driven a Chevy. Is that understandable?
No one said that these techniques are "new" as you stated in the other thread either, nor are all of us new to the shotgun either. Please point out the spot where someone said that these techniques are new or that they have little experience with the shotgun. It is not there.
No one is saying that you do not know how to take apart, repair or out together a Remington 870. That is a red herring thrown in for I don't know what reason. No one is denegrating your armoring abilities, your knowledge of how the system works or anything to do with how the 870 works.
AI&P Tactical
04-30-11, 13:32
Jel - I sent you a PM and now you decide to have some kind of Piss off with me back out here. I don't give two squirts about your other techniques and told you that. They work for you fine. I posted what works for me and will work for others.
You questioned my training as to give advise to others on how to shoot a shotgun and I gave it to you. My qualifications are out there for all to see if they want to, if they decide it is BS and not for them then fine. A lot of guys do think my way is BS and they think Clint Smith and others who don't get all all Delta Farce Elite Ninja Commado are also BS. They can't accept keeping it simple.
The reader will decide if they want to use what I offer. You can take this back and forth mess and squat on it. You may be one of these of "Key Board Commando's" with no practical knowledge of the subject other then what you have read or were taught by one person. I don't know. I have no further need to respond to you Jel. If you want to call me as the telephone number is at the top of my web site. Let me know how many years you have been carrying an 870 and shooting one and where all you expertise came from as I could use a good laugh.
Jel - I sent you a PM and now you decide to have some kind of Piss off with me back out here. I don't give two squirts about your other techniques and told you that. They work for you fine. I posted what works for me and will work for others.
You questioned my training as to give advise to others on how to shoot a shotgun and I gave it to you. My qualifications are out there for all to see if they want to, if they decide it is BS and not for them then fine. A lot of guys do think my way is BS and they think Clint Smith and others who don't get all all Delta Farce Elite Ninja Commado are also BS. They can't accept keeping it simple.
The reader will decide if they want to use what I offer. You can take this back and forth mess and squat on it. You may be one of these of "Key Board Commando's" with no practical knowledge of the subject other then what you have read or were taught by one person. I don't know. I have no further need to respond to you Jel. If you want to call me as the telephone number is at the top of my web site. Let me know how many years you have been carrying an 870 and shooting one and where all you expertise came from as I could use a good laugh.
Sir, I have been nothing but respectful to you. You did indeed send me a PM, which I asked for in order to not further derail the OP's thread. You sent me the PM and then continued to derail the OP's thread, I started this to stop the derail and continue the conversation publicly since that is what you seem determined to do.
No one said anything about Delta Force Ninja stuff. I am also a big fan of keeping it simple. You say that I asked for your training, but missed the reason why I asked. Again, I asked because you said those techniques don't work as well as the stock, but don't know the techniques. Is it really that hard to see why that statement doesn't hold water?
If you need my 870 resume, I have been through the factory armorer's course twice, including the 1187, 7600 and 700. I have also been through the Mossberg, Benelli, Colt, Sig, Beretta, Smith & Wesson, Ruger, FN, etc., etc. factory armorer's courses. I have been the primary armorer for two large field offices and now at a third small one. I have been a federal law enforcement officer for 10 years with another 2+ years as a local LEO before that. I am a FLETC firearms instructor and have attended state curriculuums as well. That is 12+ years of carrying an 870 professionally. I won't count my time hunting with them prior to that.
I acutally considered calling you, but this irrational and childish response disuaded me. If you are unable to have an unemotional converation and back it up with facts rather than name calling and insults, I have no use speaking to you. Good day.
ETA: Anyone feel free to put me in my place. If I am being unreasonable or am coming across as insulting to AI&P, please let me know. Thanks
benellimax4
05-01-11, 09:34
Give AIP a break. The guy is giving you an answer. Because you don't like it, you are whining like a girl.
I have tried the push/pull gimmick thing. No serious shotgunner uses it. You know why? It hurts your ability to swing a weapon smoothly, slows you down, and effects your aim.
If it worked, clay shooters and hunters all over the world would be using it. I'll bet 90% of the gun school commandos would forget to do it in a real life and death situation with pressure.
It is a gimmick.
Give AIP a break. The guy is giving you an answer. Because you don't like it, you are whining like a girl.
I have tried the push/pull gimmick thing. No serious shotgunner uses it. You know why? It hurts your ability to swing a weapon smoothly, slows you down, and effects your aim.
If it worked, clay shooters and hunters all over the world would be using it. I'll bet 90% of the gun school commandos would forget to do it in a real life and death situation with pressure.
It is a gimmick.
Really? I would say that Rob Haught is a serious shotgunner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq74aiXn1b4&playnext=1&list=PL418E213D409E59B3
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2225189
Really?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq74aiXn1b4&playnext=1&list=PL418E213D409E59B3
I was in that class. It sure as shit is not a gimmick, and going through a shoot house, you definitely remember it under stress.
benellimax4
05-01-11, 16:28
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Funny%20stuff/TreeofWoe-1.jpg
Can somebody link to the original topic that generated this conversation? Are you guys talking about a Knox stock for a 870?
I put one on mine, and...if you use it properly, it definitely reduces felt recoil. No question about.
Hold it the wrong way and you are going to be a good punch in the cheek.
But maybe you guys aren't interested in discussing a recoil reducing stock on a 870, but having a personal squirting contest??
:blink:
Wow, just watched that video on managing recoil through posture and grip/holding.
VERY IMPRESSIVE!
Maybe I should not have put that Knox stock on after all.
:)
AI&P Tactical
05-01-11, 16:57
I am amazed that anyone could say any technique of shooting a 12ga with heavy loads is going to reduce felt recoil better then the two stocks I mentioned, the SpecOps and the Mesa with Endine buffer.
And yes proper technique in shooting the shotgun lessens the impact of recoi on your body. The Sport shooter know this and shoot more rounds in a week then those of us that do shoot clays shoot in several months. All shooters know this. Not saying it does not. But untill you use one of these stocks correctly, either one, but the Mesa is far better, and shoot a hundred or so rounds of 00 you can't really judge. I have done this and state for sure and true they are superior to any technigue being taught out there.
There is no better recoil reducing system out there then the Endine buffer when installed on a Mesa stock or other like product ( I prefer Mesa). Add the Limbasver M-4 pad and it just can't get any better.
Not everyone cares for these stocks and would rather have a conventional stock and the techniques in this thread work for them. this whole mess start with some guy saying the technigues work better then the recoil reducing stocks and I did not agree as that is simply not the case.
I never had these stock during my career and had to deal with the 870and 870P with hard rubber pads on hard wood stocks. Don't know my round count of 00 and slugs over all those years but it was enough to appriciate these stocks now that I have them.
Just to add a nieghbor came and borrowed my turkey gun a 12 ga 870 and it has the SpecOps. It is for his 11 year old daughter. She has been shooting it for a week getting ready for her first Turkey hunt. She loves it. However, he is using standard #4 game loads for her not the Hot Turkey Loads, but these stocks work better with heavy loads so I think she could even handle them.
Heavy Metal
05-01-11, 17:03
.
If this is indicitave of the future quality of your posts, my advice to you is just walk away now.
http://brokentoys.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/humungus_speech.jpg
.
Your insults toward a very well respected Trainer and LEO and Competitive shooter are Uncalled for....:suicide:
and for a fact of matter it works well i have had several versions of Recoil reducing stocks pending sighting systems on the gun they offer a horrible check weld i have seen no less than 4 of them collapse on shooters and break skin under recoil.
Now that said I prefer to run a shortened fix stock and use a proven technique to run the gun....
Yes, proper technique in shooting the shotgun lessens the impact of recoi on your body. The Sport shooter know this and shoot more rounds in a week then those of us that do shoot clays shoot in several months. All shooters know this. Not saying it does not. But until you use one of these stocks correctly, either one, but the Mesa is far better, and shoot a hundred or so rounds of 00 you can't really judge. I have done this and state for sure and true they are superior to any technique being taught out there.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, or get between the belligerents here, but...while I appreciate what you are saying here, what did you think of the video posted? That is some impressive recoil control, don't you think?
I am an occasional, casual, shooter. However, I can vouch for the Mesa Tactical system with the Enidine recoil reducing buffer. In my opinion, it takes the recoil of 00 buck shot and slugs down to about the kick of a 30.30.
I have not used it in any type of "tactical" situation, but for "killing" milk jugs and shooting pictures of bad guys, you can fire off 100 slugs and the next day your shoulder does not hurt. That is good enough for me.
Oh, and J.D. at AI&P is a great guy to do business with. He is honest to a fault and when he has an opinion, it is worth your consideration-IMHO.
I can also say that after spending a day shooting close to 450 rounds of slug buck and bird a proper fit and good pad and good TTP i have had no effect but a red mark from pad rub.....
One thing i did notice with some recoil stock systems was the lack of speed in follow up shots as if i was waiting for the gun hard to explain
but try both ways then decide if your not willing to dedicate time and effort to training to learn a technique then maybe the stock is the answer for you to each is own
.
Wow
Name calling in one post, then insulting a very well respected weapons trainer in another. I'll venture to say, that you will not be around here too long.
Guys, when some douchebag insults a SME/Industry Professional, or anyone for that matter, please do not keep quoting him.
AI&P Tactical
05-01-11, 18:23
Yes, saw the video and that method has been around awhile. Very impressive on how it reduces muzzel flip. But I have done it and the recoil is still there but yes lessened. It is not lessened as much as the SpecOps and Mesa lessens it.
You have to get a shotgun. Do that with 100 rounds of 00. A few days latter get the Mesa with Endine and M-4 Limbsaver pad or even a SpecOps (I am a dealer so all my personal ones came from Remington and have the R3 on them) and do the same thing. Then pick the way you want to shoot. Me, I pick the Mesa and SpecOps second.
We are all different in this country and this is why we all don't wear black PJ's for clothes. What works for one may not work for another. I can tell what my shoulder says after shooting and that is what it is all about.
Guys, when some douchebag insults a SME/Industry Professional, or anyone for that matter, please do not keep quoting him.
Roger wilco.
I can also say that after spending a day shooting close to 450 rounds of slug buck and bird a proper fit and good pad and good TTP i have had no effect but a red mark from pad rub.....
One thing i did notice with some recoil stock systems was the lack of speed in follow up shots as if i was waiting for the gun hard to explain
but try both ways then decide if your not willing to dedicate time and effort to training to learn a technique then maybe the stock is the answer for you to each is own
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think for being an "Industry Professional" your last sentence assumes a great deal. Some people may not have the time or the inclination to train to your level. Icy78 clearly noted that s/he is a casual shooter. So, if you were taking a shot at Icy78, I call foul.
450 rounds of heavy bird, buck and slug over 2 days in Rob's class, not a mark on my shoulder, and it's fast.
Elkhound, I didn't take what Steve said to be a "swipe", just an honest statement. If the shooter isn't going to train up to a technique to run the gun, then maybe just buying a "recoil reducing" stock would be better for him.
450 rounds of heavy bird, buck and slug over 2 days in Rob's class, not a mark on my shoulder, and it's fast.
Elkhound, I didn't take what Steve said to be a "swipe", just an honest statement. If the shooter isn't going to train up to a technique to run the gun, then maybe just buying a "recoil reducing" stock would be better for him.
I just re-read Steve's post and I agree with your take on the statement. I think I read it in the wrong light or in the wrong context. For that, I apologize to Steve.
Elkhound
Heavy Metal
05-01-11, 19:11
Guys, when some douchebag insults a SME/Industry Professional, or anyone for that matter, please do not keep quoting him.
Duly noted!
Guys, when some douchebag insults a SME/Industry Professional, or anyone for that matter, please do not keep quoting him.
Will comply
I just re-read Steve's post and I agree with your take on the statement. I think I read it in the wrong light or in the wrong context. For that, I apologize to Steve.
Elkhound
No worries
Gutshot John
05-01-11, 21:48
I've had the Knoxx stock for several years after getting tired of the 870s recoil. It genuinely does work as advertised. Though some people don't like the cheek weld, there is a cheek riser that you can get that improves the situation though I prefer it without.
Accordingly since that time I've been shown and can apply the push/pull technique...which also works very well but isn't as effective at controlling recoil. That said it works well enough that there is no "need" for the Knoxx.
Used in conjunction with each shooting a 12 gauge is positively pleasant.
Well, I certainly didn't mean to cause a shit storm. I was simply trying to move this discussion out of the "Do you ride the pump back" thread.
I have done this and state for sure and true they are superior to any technigue being taught out there.
this whole mess start with some guy saying the technigues work better then the recoil reducing stocks and I did not agree as that is simply not the case.
That is untrue. This whole thing started because you said the exact same thing as you just said again. "The stocks are superior to any technique". I asked if you were familiar with Rob's technique. You said you weren't. I then asked how you could state that the stocks were superior to a technique that you were not familiar with.
You now say you are familiar with the technique and prefer the stocks, so be it.
I've had the Knoxx stock for several years after getting tired of the 870s recoil. It genuinely does work as advertised. Though some people don't like the cheek weld, there is a cheek riser that you can get that improves the situation though I prefer it without.
Same here. Key to proper use of the Knoxx stock is properly holding it, which mean, you do not jam the shotgun into your shoulder, nor do you grab the forend and hang on to it for dear life. You hold it as high on your shoulder pocket as possible, let it come up to your cheek, not the other way around, then have fun.
I got the kit for it with the cheek riser, which I find very helpful.
AI&P tactical has a great article on the proper way to use the Knoxx stock, which I can't locate at the moment. Anyone else have a link to it?
Gutshot John
05-02-11, 11:52
I asked if you were familiar with Rob's technique.
Actually I don't think that's Rob's technique. He teaches it but I've heard the same concept explained by many shotgunners (sporting/non-tactical guys including my dad, my stepmom's dad and brother who were both champion clay shooters) before I had ever heard of Rob Haught though he probably popularized it. So it wouldn't surprise me that he would know what it is even though he didn't associate it with Rob Haught.
The technique is indeed very effective but the stock probably does have greater impact on recoil. Not that you'd really want to, but using the Knoxx stock you can fire a shotgun with one hand (I've done it), which by definition is not something you can do with the push/pull.
This is not to take anything at all away from Rob Haught, he's a great instructor and someone I definitely want to train with in the future. I think people would be foolish to diminish the value of his class.
You can still shoot with one hand, we did that in class.
What I have a problem with is the either/or arguments. I've shot shotguns with the Knoxx stock, I've taken Rob Haught's class, and I'll stick with Rob's technique.
Gutshot John
05-02-11, 12:43
You can still shoot with one hand, we did that in class.
What I have a problem with is the either/or arguments. I've shot shotguns with the Knoxx stock, I've taken Rob Haught's class, and I'll stick with Rob's technique.
How does the technique work one handed?
I was under the impression that you have to push with one hand and pull with the other?
How does the technique work one handed?
I was under the impression that you have to push with one hand and pull with the other?
John, I'd highly recommend taking a class with Rob. Honestly, I learned more from that class than I have in most carbine classes, because of very different manual of arms and tactics involved vs. a carbine.
450 rounds of heavy bird, buck and slug over 2 days in Rob's class, not a mark on my shoulder, and it's fast.
Elkhound, I didn't take what Steve said to be a "swipe", just an honest statement. If the shooter isn't going to train up to a technique to run the gun, then maybe just buying a "recoil reducing" stock would be better for him.
I have been to a couple of Rob Haught's shotgun classes and to multiple training and qualification days with my duty 870 and now Benelli M4 shooting plenty of buck and slug all day long for many years now using the the push/pull method. It definitely lessens recoil to the point of no red shoulder marks and even helps run the 870 pump faster since you need to push forward to unlock it anyways.
My issue with the recoil reducing stocks is they aren't short enough! I like a 11-12" LOP and I run a short Speedfeed stock on my 870 with a thin plastic SWAT plate instead of a rubber pad. I am going to do the same with my M4 once I figure out how to do it with my Mesa Urbino stock. A shorter shotgun is quicker to swing, easier to carry, and more handy in confined spaces for duty use. More importantly, I won't be shooting hundreds of rounds in an actual shooting and have to worry about a sore shoulder causing any issues.
Use what you want, just make sure it works for you in your intended situation!
Dennis.
Dave Berryhill
05-10-11, 13:34
Dennis - What's your impression of the Mesa Urbino stock? I need to try one out on an 870. It costs a little more but the quality should be much better than what Speedfeed is putting out these days.
If you need a recoil-reducing stock that short, the Mesa adapter/M4 stock/Endine buffer combination may be your only option.
Dennis - What's your impression of the Mesa Urbino stock? I need to try one out on an 870. It costs a little more but the quality should be much better than what Speedfeed is putting out these days.
If you need a recoil-reducing stock that short, the Mesa adapter/M4 stock/Endine buffer combination may be your only option.
It's a nice stock, especially if you need a cheek riser (I don't). However, the rubber grip is almost uncomfortably square in back which was easily remedied by replacing it with my Benelli OEM although that would not be possible with an 870. However, it may be OK for you.
I have no need for a recoil-reducing stock, however I am sure even the Mesa/Endine one is still too long. I tried a Mesa adapter and even the stock on the fully closed position was still longer than I wanted.
I would stick with Speedfeed for 870 with it's rounder grip and shorter length (with SWAT plate). However, I don't know anything about recent quality issues.
Dennis.
Quick update
2 recoil reducing stocks gave up up the ghost in the first hour of class last week
one was a factory Remington installed model the other on a Wilson conversion gun
one shooter had a mesa system installed and hated the weight of that unit he was no small dude either
I used Endine/Mesa on my 3Gun shotgun. It makes shooting more comfortable. Especially for one shot. But ruins shotgun control for fast follow up shots. At least for me. Now I use classic stock with better results.
I also talked to best Polish IPSC/3Gun shotgun shooters (ex clay pro shooter). He uses Benelli Supernova - his main compliant is original recoil reducing stock. He says, that working/flexing stock takes away from weapon control (he even considered to have new stock made from wood). And he shots pump action faster that most people shoot self loaders.
Based on this I think that recoil reduction stocks gave more comfort for inexperienced shooter, but takes away from controlling shotgun. I thing that "limbsaver" style of buttpad is as much as it goes for recoil reduction devices.
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