View Full Version : Should I just give up and
stick with the DA revolver? I'm serious here. I've put serious effort in with lots of semi-auto's, and good ones at that. German Sigs, Glocks, S&W M&P's, 1911's, etc. My problem is not reliability. I've been treated to a level of reliability that some wouldn't believe. But the accuracy is where the difference is, I frankly shoot the DA sixguns noticeably better when I do drills, and even more so when I move from target to target, say like el Presidente, or the old failure to stop drill. I do understand what I'm giving up here, namely capacity and speed of reload. I'm wondering if I should stick to the revolver, and spend the time that I would spend doing malfunction clearance drills practicing my reloads to get better in that area. The auto that I do the best with is the 1911, but, at the same rate of fire, I'm just doing so much better with the revolver that I'm seriously wondering why I should fight what seems to want to work on its own. This will be a supplemental home defense weapon, as in Illinois we have no concealed carry, as most probably already know. Other HD weapons already in use are an 870P and Colt 6940. I am not trying to stir up the tired old Reliability Debate as I do understand that the revolver can malfunction and do so badly, but anything mechanical can break. So given my situation, do you think I should spend my training time on the platform that I do significantly better with already, or spend that time, energy and money (on ammo) getting something else upt to par? Sorry so long, Thanks for advice.
AngeredKabar
04-30-11, 17:56
I'll tow the line and say use whatever you're most comfortable with.
Need more information.
What has comprised your “serious effort” with semi-autos, and how long have you been at it?
How long have you been shooting revolvers, and how experienced with them are you in relation to semi-autos?
What do you think is the reason you shoot better with revolvers?
Ok, so far this year, I've got around 1500 rounds of 38 Spl +P down range, and the same amount in 45 auto. This years 9mm total is around 600. I'm working on trigger control, sight alignment, basically the fundamentals at all times. I'm 30 years old. Been shooting revolvers since I was 12, semi auto's since 13. Now, as far as really working on what I'll call true tactical proficiency, been working on that for 3 years, once I learned what it meant. There are two reasons I'm shooting the revolvers better, maybe 3. First up is the sights. I don't do as well with the dot setup in most semi's front sight. If it had a red ramp that went all the way to the top, or was all black, it'd do better for me. The white dot being below the top of the sight hurts my focus. I realize that custom sights could probably cure that. Second is the big one and that is the trigger control. On a Glock, or M&P, the slack, stiff, break sequence is very hard for me to get in a rhythm with, even if I only let the the trigger travel forward enough to reset. The long heavy DA trigger on the revo forces me to focus on the front sight and roll the trigger back. On a 1911, the light SA trigger seems to cause me to rush shots, I'm not sure there. The third, and this is a maybe, the part of the auto that hangs over the web of my shooting hand chews up the web after a long shooting session, which I think leads to flinching as the day progresses. The Sigs actually drive that part into the web like a dull chisel, really bad for any extended shooting. Sorry so long here. Also, I don't want to be misunderstood, I'm not looking for validation for a choice I've already made, as it hasn't been made yet, and I'm more than open to any advice that can be given to improve my luck with the semi's.
First of all, there is nothing wrong with a good revolver for house defense. There is no need to feel undergunned, whether you grab the revolver first or use it as a back-up.
Second, if you know what's your problems are with shooting auto loaders, it's possible to find ways to correct the. It's possible there is an auto with a trigger that's similar enough to your DA revolver. Otherwise, it's a matter of building up "muscle memory".
Sights are easily replaced. Many pistols come with plain sights. Find and use the sights you like best.
Change your grip so shooting an auto is more comfortable. Don't push your hand up so high. Try more autos & see what fits your hand best. Don't shoot so many rounds that discomfort becomes a flinch.
After all that, if you simply don't want make the effort to learn to shoot an auto loader better, you don't have to. If you do, you have to accept that you may never learn to shoot an auto pistol as good as your revolver. It's ok to train with both and to continue using your revolver for house defense. What ever, it's your choice. Just don't let it stress you out & take away your enjoyment of shooting
Have you shot a Kahr? Trigger is long light and very smooth without the stacking you get on a Glock for instance. It also has to be fully released to reset much like a revolver. Also try a shooting glove if the auto its giving you pain on long sessions. If thats not an improvement the wheel gun might just be right for you.
You know, I'd never considered that my grip may be too high, but that could be the problem. I remember I used to be able to run a 1911 very accurately, just not quickly, then I changed my grip. Started getting as high as humanly possible cause that's what they said I had to do to "get fast" and thats when the web started taking a beating. Got to thinking that if I couldn't run an auto right, maybe it wasn't meant to be. Next time I've got the 1911 out, I will drop her down a bit, try to find the sweet spot between recoil control and web comfort.
Also, I did try the NY1/minus connector setup on a Glock. It didn't help much, and I had very high hopes. I can't explain why exactly, cause it wasn't my gun, it was a friends, and I didn't really get enough time with it to fully analyze.
Thanks again guys for the help.
ILRedneck--Do you have any REAL training with a pistol?
600 rounds of 9 mm is about one day of hard training...
EAG, Magpul Dynamics, Trident Concepts, VTAC, CSAT, Vickers Tactical, ITTS, Todd Green/PistolTraining.com, and TigerSwan have all offered superb instruction for officers here––you would be ahead of the game to get training from any of them. Some other folks offering good training include: Pat Goodale/PFT, Louis Awerbuck/Yavpai Shooting Academy, LMS Defense, Kyle Defoor, Jason Falla/Redback One, Pat Mcnamara/TMAC, Mike Pannone/CTT Solutions, Jim Smith/Spartan Tactical, Tom DiTomasso/Fulcrum Concepts, Dave Hall, Don Lazzarini, and Rob Haught on shotguns. A lot of these classes are available through Grey Group Training.
I am never an advocate of "giving up", but you sound like you have made your decision, so maybe you should. Your experience is not typical. Most revolver shooters adapt reasonably well to the autos that you mention. Also, shooting a few rounds every week, through a different type of pistol, isn't going to help you adapt very well. Pick ONE auto platform that suits your needs, and train with it, with an experienced instructor. Only after that, can you say that it won't work for you.
Another thing...you say your concerns are with the accuracy of autos. Just how much difference are we talking here. 1" groups @ 25yds. vs. 3" groups @ 25 yds? Again, ask yourself what your needs are. Are you looking to shoot sub 1" groups, like in a bullseye competition? If so, and you do better with a wheel gun, then stick with a wheel gun. If you want to train for self defense, those kinds of groups are not what its all about, and the game changes. Things like carry ability, sights, reliability, reloading speed, and general tactical considerations come into play. Most folks will sacrifice an inch or two in group size, to afford all the combat benefits of a good auto.
Just ask yourself what you want out of the guns you are shooting, and why you are shooting them.
I agree with Doc on this. 600rds is nothing when it comes to training. However, I can see how you might be more proficient with low round counts on the revolver. The revolver is slower shooting, and you have to reload more often meaning that with low round count training you get more practice with performing those functions.
A revolver may be more accurate, but a reliable auto pistol gives you a significant combat advantage and you'll need everything you can get if you have to trade shots with someone. A good start might be to get a reliable 9mm with a good service record like a Glock, H&K, or S&W M&P. Buy a couple of thousand rounds of practice ammo, and get some training.
Nephrology
04-30-11, 22:05
Stick to the revolver for now. Figure out which of your semi autos you liked best. You said you liked 1911s, right? Practice exclusively with only 1 or 2 different 1911s for the next year - do not touch any other semi autos, but do keep shooting your revolvers for proficiency.
perhaps some dedicated face time with 1 group of semi autos is what will help you. I used to feel pretty incompetent with pistols in general until all I shot was a Glock 19 for about 6 months.
El Vaquero
05-01-11, 01:29
I also shoot revolvers and semi autos. What has been 100% reliable and similar (long trigger pull) has been my H&K's USP in full size and compact with the LEM trigger. The LEM trigger gives you a long consistent trigger pull with the option of having follow up shots with a short trigger pull but it does not stay locked back like a typical DA/SA.
I'm a strong believer in muscle memory and when stressed you will default to either your training or what you have the most experience in. Since I routinely carry a small revolver in a back up roll or ccw roll it was important for ME to have my larger pistols to be similar and vice versa. That, and I like how the LEM trigger on the H&K has a little bit of resistance in the opposite direction ensuring it is always in contact with your finger. For ME it means better trigger control.
If your primary purpose is home defense then you definitely need something your comfortable with. So in short, IMHO there is no sacrifice for training and muscle memory. You may just be more comfortable transitioning to a semi auto with a trigger like H&K's LEM or Sig's DAK. You can still save a lot of money on ammo by just doing dry fire exercises.
Hogsgunwild
05-01-11, 04:51
El Vaquero beat me to the draw on the HK thing. I have recently been shooting P30s, USPs and HK45Cs (9MM, .40S&W and .45ACPs all of which were DA/SA I think, shot in SA mode) and find that they are incredibly similar to how my S&W Model 27 Performace Center "Registered Magnum" shoots in double action mode. The HKs are quite a bit lighter weight guns as well which speaks volumes on how accurate of a platform they are. Rent one sometime. My groups with the HKs are close to what the fancy S&W will do.
More importantly, Doc's training advice is the best gun money you will ever spend. My 25 yard groups with ANY handgun platform have been shrunk down to about one third of what I was doing prior to my first full-blown training course. Once the accuracy started coming naturally, I found that it was there as well during speed drills.
You are not completely wasting your time by practicing without proper training but you may be reinforcing bad habits like I was and once you get some quality training, you will get oh so much more value out of your ammo and practice time. Enjoyment too.
I will freely admit that I have had no professional instruction, and it's "on my list" along with professional carbine instruction.
600 rounds of 9mm isn't a lot, I know, however, please consider the 1500 of 45 and the 1500 of 38 SPL, add it all up, figure that from Jan 1 2011 to Apr 30 2011, you get 3600 in 4 months. I didn't mention my 22LR time through revo's and the Marvel conversion I have.
I fully intend to change my grip as was suggested earlier and see if that helps, which I think it will.
My goal in training is fist size groups, or slightly larger at 25 yards, and hopefully be able to do this with a DA revolver, 1911, and a 9mm platform. I do realize this is going to involve significant time and a healthy expenditure or ammo, and I have no problem with that.
Again, thank you all for the suggestions. I joined this forum to learn, not to stubbornly cling to my own ideas and I've learned a great deal here already. The search function here has answered so many questions for me that I seldom post, the answers I seek are usually on here and I very much appreciate that.
I had a friend who was a revolver (primarily) shooter for years and had a hard time adjusting to "semi's" but wanted to transition badly. We went out one day and I let him shoot a "Para" LDA I owned for quite a while, because I thought it was the closest to a "nice" revolver trigger I had ever shot. He fell in love with it and "bugged" me until I agreed to sell it to him. He has been a "LEO" for over 30 years and it is now his "duty weapon". His accuracy has improved tremendously and he insist that he will never carry any other semi-auto. Some don't care for "Para's" but this one had been totally reliable and accurate from day one and its a 1911 platform with double-stack magazines, win/win.
Also, I did try the NY1/minus connector setup on a Glock. It didn't help much, .
this combo did not win me over this morning either.
I used to carry a 3" GP100 and actually (by my standards) shot it fairly well. For the five or six years that I was on my revolver kick (bought six, still have three) my 1911 collected dust and on the rare occasion that I did shoot it, I didn't perform as well as I did with my carry revolver. I had spent so much time learning about the revolver that I had actually convinced myself that wheel guns were superior and autos were expensive paperweights. I also preached this to anyone who would listen.
Then my children were born and I put away my pet revolvers and got more serious about my defensive shooting. Now with my 1911 I can shoot circles around my old revolver work. My new M&P is even more slick and I'm close to finishing my reliabilty tests so I can carry it.
If you truly want to learn the auto, put down the revolvers and clear your mind of any preconceived notions you may have and get to work. If then you still find yourself dissatisfied with the auto, you'll at least know that you gave it an honest effort and then you can happily return to revolvers.
They aren't the worst choice anyway.
Pistol Shooter
05-01-11, 17:31
I'll tow the line and say use whatever you're most comfortable with.
Great advice.
Stick with what you know and shoot well. No need to change horses now, IMO.
Revolvers have been quite effective for many years. :)
stick with the DA revolver? I'm serious here. I've put serious effort in with lots of semi-auto's, and good ones at that. German Sigs, Glocks, S&W M&P's, 1911's, etc. My problem is not reliability. I've been treated to a level of reliability that some wouldn't believe. But the accuracy is where the difference is, I frankly shoot the DA sixguns noticeably better when I do drills, and even more so when I move from target to target, say like el Presidente, or the old failure to stop drill. I do understand what I'm giving up here, namely capacity and speed of reload.....
There was once commercial where the coach and team are in the locker room. The coach picks up an object and says to the team, "This is a football"
Fundamentals.
I don't think your goals are unreasonable but expectations about how quickly you'll get there might be.
You'll have to train yourself on the basics all over again. Its not unlike teaching yourself to shoot with your weak hand.
Front sight focus.
Clean, -straight- trigger squeeze.
See the shot break to call the shot.
Follow through.
Yes, -that- basic.
Once you get your groups down to a size that you feel comfortable with, start including some target transitions while applying the same fundamentals.
Leave speed out of the equation for now. The habits you have now are being reinforced in the drills you are doing.
Dry fire is recommended if your pistol (and family) will tolerate it.
crusader377
05-01-11, 23:25
Although I prefer a quality semi-auto over a DA revolver, I still feel that a good quality DA revolver is still a good self-defense option and has been for well over 100 years. If you feel that you perform better with the revolver, then I can see no compelling need to change your platform. With good training, a revolver can solve the vast majority of the home defense scenarios.
Hogsgunwild
05-02-11, 01:23
There was once commercial where the coach and team are in the locker room. The coach picks up an object and says to the team, "This is a football"
Fundamentals.
I don't think your goals are unreasonable but expectations about how quickly you'll get there might be.
You'll have to train yourself on the basics all over again. Its not unlike teaching yourself to shoot with your weak hand.
Front sight focus.
Clean, -straight- trigger squeeze.
See the shot break to call the shot.
Follow through.
Yes, -that- basic.
Once you get your groups down to a size that you feel comfortable with, start including some target transitions while applying the same fundamentals.
Leave speed out of the equation for now. The habits you have now are being reinforced in the drills you are doing.
Dry fire is recommended if your pistol (and family) will tolerate it.
Wildcat's advice is absolutely excellent. Might I add;
1.) Stance (Modified Weaver works well for me).
2.) Grip (strong hand=handshake pressure and not too strong.
Support hand= strong grip with some rearward
pressure).
Then come sights and the rest of the steps. All steps are important and you have to find what works for you with the stance and grip.
Several years ago I changed to more of a Modified Weaver stance and my accuracy / stability instantly improved.
Last year I found out at a course what a huge difference the proper grip pressure does to your control and accuracy. I was very surprised to find out how strong the support hand needs to be held. I also have to remind myself regularly to keep the strong hand pressure relatively light.
Shadow1198
05-02-11, 04:51
I will freely admit that I have had no professional instruction, and it's "on my list" along with professional carbine instruction.
600 rounds of 9mm isn't a lot, I know, however, please consider the 1500 of 45 and the 1500 of 38 SPL, add it all up, figure that from Jan 1 2011 to Apr 30 2011, you get 3600 in 4 months. I didn't mention my 22LR time through revo's and the Marvel conversion I have.
I fully intend to change my grip as was suggested earlier and see if that helps, which I think it will.
My goal in training is fist size groups, or slightly larger at 25 yards, and hopefully be able to do this with a DA revolver, 1911, and a 9mm platform. I do realize this is going to involve significant time and a healthy expenditure or ammo, and I have no problem with that.
Again, thank you all for the suggestions. I joined this forum to learn, not to stubbornly cling to my own ideas and I've learned a great deal here already. The search function here has answered so many questions for me that I seldom post, the answers I seek are usually on here and I very much appreciate that.
Dude, before you give up, go take a class with a good instructor. It doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg either. Even if you ultimately decide to stick with the revolver, those fundamentals will still transfer over for the most part so it's still relevant. At least with a professional watching and diagnosing you, you may end up finding out you actually like semi-autos.
I remember years ago when I hit a brick wall shooting handguns in general, and it sucked. To be honest, I'm just a damn masochist and just kept learning the hard way, and literally wasted tens of thousands of rounds of ammo to get where I would have been taking one good professional class. Once I finally did take the first professional class, it took so much effort to keep from pistol whipping myself for not getting out to a class sooner. Now that I have the heroin-like addiction for training, I just wish I had the damn money I used to have to be able to take all the classes I'd like to. Get a class under your belt and then make an educated decision.
I know grip has been mentioned concerning height but look fully into a semi-auto pistol grip. Seems much easier to me to fully wrap the hands around a revolver where it took some practice to do it well (to where I am now, not exactly perfect by any stretch) with a semi, revolver is thumbs down where semi is thumbs forward, go higher up on a semi and let the hand nestle in the grip, etc.
Six oh Nine
05-02-11, 13:42
I'll tow the line and say use whatever you're most comfortable with.
I agree here, Its all about what feels better to you,
How significant is "significant"
For instance--can you shoot 2" groups at 7 yards with one and 6" groups with the other? or is it 2 vs 2.5? Both are significant. Bottom line is can you hit what you aim at in self defense?
There are handguns we all prefer, and sometimes there are bigger hurdles to climb with some guns than others.
I can blast away with big ol revolvers all day--like you I am reeally good and really comfortable. If push came to shove having 6 or 7 rounds is fairly close to a lot of guys with 7-9 rounds in various 1911s. It's just really tough for me to justify those 7-9 rounds when I could have 15+ in a XD/M&P/Glock even with the drop in performance. Plus reloads. I'm not Jerry Micheluek(probably murdered that spelling apologies), and semi-autos are A LOT easier to reload.
Don't get me wrong--I strap on a snubbie .357 for lightweight 100+ degree weather quick runs. But on a day to day basis if its a choice between a revolver I am really good with, versus a semi-auto--I'm taking the semi-auto.
If I could carry my 44 magnum daily I would (or one of my 45Auto revolvers--I love my big fram revolvers). its just not practical and 18 rounds of 9mm (or 14 of 45 auto) trump 6 rounds of 44 mag.
Well, significant as in if I do a double tap to the head of a standard B-27 target with my revolvers, I get two hits close together. Try that with a semi and I get one in the head, and one, well in the neck or off to the side. This is at 15-20 yards.
Been doing a lot of dry fire since the original post, and the problem seems to be mostly trigger control, so I'm gonna continue to do dry fire practice until the trigger control on my 1911 and my Beretta 92 is second nature. Raining too damn much to shoot last 2 days anyway.
Second, the next time I go to the range I'm taking one pistol (My Colt Rail Gun) and practicing grip, stance, breathing, trigger control, all the very basic fundamentals, and slowly, until I run out of time or ammo.
Third, I will seek out professional instruction ASAP. But my next six months of practice will be with the 1911 and the Beretta, and probably the Marvel conversion on the 1911, since 22LR is still the best Breathe, Aim, Squeeze practice round out there. Thank you all again for the help and advice. The revolver is in the nightstand for now, and I do not want to lose my hard earned skills with it, but I am not giving up on my goal of competence with more.
that might be an issue right there. A beretta 92 and a 1911 are different triggers. One thing I really had to work on was the gentle squeeze after those big DA pulls. That's a hard habit to break. Id pick just one semi auto and master it, rather than 2 totally different ones.
El Vaquero
05-02-11, 23:02
I forgot to mention the importance of keeping the same or similar grip. I do not shoot my semi autos with the thumbs forward grip. My left thumb (I'm right handed) over laps my right thumb. Pretty much the same grip used for revolvers.
don't fight it stick with what works for you. The revolver has been and will continue to win fights and shooting matches for a long time. consider an 8 shot smith 627 n-frame with moon clips and you'll give up little to an auto. I regard the smith wheel guns as the most inherently accurate production guns ever- in a ransom rest several run of the mill 4 inch skinny barrel model 10's would give sub 3 inch groups at 50 YARDS. no PRODUCTION auto can come close.
don't fight it stick with what works for you. The revolver has been and will continue to win fights and shooting matches for a long time. consider an 8 shot smith 627 n-frame with moon clips and you'll give up little to an auto. I regard the smith wheel guns as the most inherently accurate production guns ever- in a ransom rest several run of the mill 4 inch skinny barrel model 10's would give sub 3 inch groups at 50 YARDS. no PRODUCTION auto can come close.
I would disagree just a bit. While your statement that the 627 gives up little to say a 1911 or a small compact semi-auto is very correct, as well as the fact that revolvers are proven technology--There is something to be gained by mastering a semi-auto. But by no means is a revolver deficient--the real mastery is the shooter not the tool.
I think a summary of my opinion is a revolver is not a bad tool, it is just not the best tool in most situations. It can do 97-99% of what the best tool can do. But reloads and conceal-ability all favor semi-autos. In a potential gunfight I want all the advantages i can get.
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