View Full Version : Why would you get 4MOA vs. 2 on an Aimpoint?
ComeAndTakeIt
04-30-11, 23:25
I see them priced the same. CompM3's with 2 and 4 MOA. They're priced the same, and I'm wondering why would someone choose 4?
I'm asking out of lack of knowledge. I'm not judging, because I seriously don't know.
My guess is: 4 is easier to pick see in a hurry for CQB? I've looked through both at the store, and it appears they both "pop" equally, and for precision shooting, 2MOA makes more sense, so I'm not sure why someone would elect for the 4MOA.
Thanks in advance for the info.
I'm getting a 4 moa dot for my SBR for fast acquisition of target at short distances. I'd get a 2 moa dot if I was planning on shooting farther out with it consistently.
ComeAndTakeIt
04-30-11, 23:44
Ok... so my guess was right. It's for close quarters and easier acquisition of the dot.
Thanks.
SeriousStudent
05-01-11, 00:02
If you turn up the intensity on an Aimpoint 2 MOA model, you can get it very close to 4 MOA in size. If I recall one of LtCol Blish's posts correctly, the published size of the dot is measured on either setting number 7 or 8.
I prefer a 2 MOA model, as I can "crank up" the dot size for close range, or turn it back down to 2 MOA for further distances.
You may want to dig up some of his posts, his screen name is "FJB". He's a rep for Aimpoint, and quite knowledgeable.
Hope that helps.
Failure2Stop
05-01-11, 02:55
Some people find that the 4 MOA dot blooms less at higher intensities. It also stands out a bit better against bright backgrounds.
Many have also found out that dot size doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot considering that at the distances that dot soze matters the shooter has to hold over the target anyway.
Still, I no longer own any 4 MOA Aimpoints.
They are slightly easier to see at close distance shooting and therefore potentially faster to acquire when transitioning from target to target.
With my astigmatism already causing dots to bloom the 2 MOA has been a godsend to me.
I use 2 MOA aimpoints and love them. I turn the brightness down to get a very crisp dot while zeroing, then turn it up a bit for normal carbine work. The dot is big and bright enough for quick acquisition, yet smaller than a 4 MOA so it is a bit easier to make precise shots when necessary.
Cagemonkey
05-01-11, 08:39
Because thats what my dealer had in stock and I was making a trade. For most applications the 4 MOA dot should be adequate. I think the 2 MOA dot came out to be paired with a magnifier. I'd personally prefer the 2 MOA dot.
variablebinary
05-01-11, 09:04
I've used both and own both, and the difference isn't big enough to lose sleep over under 200 meters
Still, I no longer own any 4 MOA Aimpoints.What about your T-1?
Are they making the T1s in 2 moa? I hear their current 4 moa dot is more like 3 moa anyways (and can vary with how bright you set it), but I thought I heard something about them making a 2 moa option as well...
I don't think you're going to see a 2 MOA T-1 anytime soon. As I understand it the projector in the current T-1 is actually the 2 MOA projector from the big sights and it appears 3-4 MOA because of the shorter tube. I'm paraphrasing here as I'm no expert and I can't find the post from Aimpoint that talked about this.
So with that size moa dot accuracy would be acceptable with the T1 out to 100-200 yds?
I am coming from experience only with EOTech...I have been toying with the idea of switching over to Aimpoint for a while now...partly because I'm in the process of building a 10.5" SBR that will be set up for HD/CQB and I like the idea of always keeping the optic on.
I know this horse has been beat to death but I don't have any experience with the Aimpoint like you guys do...
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-01-11, 12:20
This reason is why I went back to the EOtech I like the 1 MOA dot but I have very good eye sight. After I got the H1 for my wifes rifle however the weight savings has me thinking of picking up a T1.
I love the precision of irons and run them exclusively. So when faced with the aggrivation of shooting a guy's gun who has a dot sight.... the 2 MOA dot is much less annoying.
The Aimpoint PRO being 2MOA has me very tempted to snag one for one of my range toy guns.
Failure2Stop
05-01-11, 12:23
What about your T-1?
Eh, its more like "something less than 4 MOA" :p
So with that size moa dot accuracy would be acceptable with the T1 out to 100-200 yds?
I won't say that a 4 MOA (or 2 MOA or 1 MOA) dot won't cover up what you are trying to hit, but on a target as big as a human head a 4 MOA dot will still easily center at 200 meters, and the shot will still fall inside the dot out to about 225 (with a 100 yard zero), after which you will be holding over the target anyway, making dot size irrelevant.
As long as what you are trying to hit is larger than your dot, you will have no problem.
I had no problem hitting an 8" steel plate at 200 yards with a pencil barrel SBR shooting XM193 with a 4MOA dot zeroed at that distance.
Inhink this is largely he problem with those that obsess about the 1MOA dot of the Eotech: target shooting. When shooting round targets with graduated colored rings having a 1 MOA dot may help. When shooting humans, or human-form targets, or other large amorphous shapes, the difference in 1MOA to 4MOA really doesn't matter much.
Having shot 1, 2, and 4 MOA dot sights at targets like the IDPA and USPSA at distances from 2' to 300 yards from my muzzle, I never once thought of he dot size as an advantage or a hinderance.
So with that size moa dot accuracy would be acceptable with the T1 out to 100-200 yds?
I am coming from experience only with EOTech...I have been toying with the idea of switching over to Aimpoint for a while now...partly because I'm in the process of building a 10.5" SBR that will be set up for HD/CQB and I like the idea of always keeping the optic on.
I know this horse has been beat to death but I don't have any experience with the Aimpoint like you guys do...
Is this accurate enough? (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34995)
I shot my BCM SBR with H-1 a couple weeks ago from mag-pod prone using a leftover magazine containing random 55 gr fmj training fodder. I wasn't shooting for high precision mind you, but with a sustained rate of fire I was able to achieve 3-4 MOA over 15 rounds. I'm not saying that's great precision shooting, but it is the maximum that ammo is capable of. I was shocked at the ammo and optic combination to be honest, not to mention I've never cleaned my barrel. I may have to use some good ammo and test it more thoroughly, as Molon clearly makes a strong case for accurate shooting with an aimpoint.
Depends on your eyes. I've had no issues with the 3-4moa dot on my T-1. Took the Trace Armory Carbine class at the Nat'l Guard Training Center in Butner NC last week where we did a considerable amout of shooting out to 300yds and had no problems keeping shots from my 11.5" BCM on target.
We zero'd at 25yd then made final adjustments at the 300yd line. Fired 4 shots each at 300/200/150/100/50/25yd and kept all but 2 shots in the 8 ring of a silouette target using a consistant high COM hold. They also had us shoot the US Army qualifier on the 300yd pop up range and I had no problem shooting 38 of 40 targets using the 3-4moa dot.
Good to know F2S...thanks.
My theory on the whole Aimpoint/EOTech debate is this...I would rather have the EOTech reticle for the 1 MOA dot for precision shooting and I actually like the 65 MOA ring to just center a target up in and be at least close to hitting center mass. I would think that my eyes would pick up that ring quicker as well.
Obviously, I would rather have the battery life of the Aimpoint, but my theory was that if I ever needed to respond to a "bump in the night" and forgot to turn the EOTech on or if it happened to die right in the middle of that situation, then I could just "shoot through the tube" so to speak and make decent hits in a CQB environment (as long as I keep a good cheek weld of course)...thus negating the battery life issue...
Now what has me looking towards the Aimpoint now is because of the SBR build I'm doing and really liking the idea of the T1 on that build.
If I go the T1 route then I wouldn't want to leave my XPS on my 14.5" due to wanting to keep things consistent (same reticle)....still on the fence deciding... :blink:
I'll ETA: that the 1 MOA dot is down the list of priorities when it comes to the features of each site. Its really the 65 MOA ring that (I would think) would be easier to pick up than just one dot...as simple as that one dot is....
RogerinTPA
05-01-11, 13:17
I've used both and own both, and the difference isn't big enough to lose sleep over under 200 meters
Agreed...same here.
To the OP: I had some reservations on the 4 MOA dot until using one in a carbine course. I had no issues with it at all, but I do prefer my M4S with the 2 dot MOA. The 1 dot MOA on my 553 even better.
snackgunner
05-01-11, 13:30
They are slightly easier to see at close distance shooting and therefore potentially faster to acquire when transitioning from target to target.
With my astigmatism already causing dots to bloom the 2 MOA has been a godsend to me.
I was thinking of getting my wife a t1, but she has an astigmatism. You would recommend a 2 MOA aimpoint for someone with an astigmatism?
Neither I or my wife have ever looked at or used an aimpoint optic so I really have no idea with what would be best.
Im thinking of putting an t1 w/ LaRue Micro M4 QD Mount on my wifes future Kino SBR...which has a FSB. Im also wondering if that FSB will effect her astigmatism when looking through the aimpoint.
Where there's an option, I prefer the 2 MOA for the reasons already posted. That being said, I prefer the T1 overall, and have no problem with its larger dot.
I was thinking of getting my wife a t1, but she has an astigmatism. You would recommend a 2 MOA aimpoint for someone with an astigmatism?
Neither I or my wife have ever looked at or used an aimpoint optic so I really have no idea with what would be best.
Im thinking of putting an t1 w/ LaRue Micro M4 QD Mount on my wifes future Kino SBR...which has a FSB. Im also wondering if that FSB will effect her astigmatism when looking through the aimpoint.
Try it out first if you can. My wife has the same vision issues and told me that my T-1's looked like a bunch of grapes. We ended up getting her a TA44 Acog and she has become a credible AR shooter with it. It's also just a really neat, lightweight package that I even like to play with on occasion.
kindred_spirits
05-01-11, 14:49
I've been really happy with the 4 moa dot on the T-1, great balance between quick acquisition and accuracy. No problems hitting a 12" steel plate at 200 yards. And surprisingly works well with a magnifier behind it.
I have both and the 4moa makes my rifle a 200m rifle and the 2moa gets me past 400m. This of course has alot to do with your eyes. I have astigmatism and the 2moa helps me considerably. Your mileage may vary;)
Eh, its more like "something less than 4 MOA" :p
I won't say that a 4 MOA (or 2 MOA or 1 MOA) dot won't cover up what you are trying to hit, but on a target as big as a human head a 4 MOA dot will still easily center at 200 meters, and the shot will still fall inside the dot out to about 225 (with a 100 yard zero), after which you will be holding over the target anyway, making dot size irrelevant.
As long as what you are trying to hit is larger than your dot, you will have no problem.
F2S
Do you use a 100 zero for all your RDS?
I have an astigmatism and my vision in 20/70 and 20/100 I believe (not real sure, its not horrendous) and attached is how I see my T-1 without glasses/contacts.
I like the T-1. Initially I was worried about the 4moa dot, but after the recommendations by many members here as well as LF, I went with the T-1. Couldn't be happier. Dot size is perfect.
I went with the T-1 because of the size and weight of it.
The dot size was a negligible factor.
I have used a T-1 and a M4 together, side by side, and I do not notice much difference between the two dots.
I have an astigmatism and my vision in 20/70 and 20/100 I believe (not real sure, its not horrendous) and attached is how I see my T-1 without glasses/contacts.
I like the T-1. Initially I was worried about the 4moa dot, but after the recommendations by many members here as well as LF, I went with the T-1. Couldn't be happier. Dot size is perfect.
Looks like an Eotech:D
ComeAndTakeIt
05-01-11, 19:34
Thanks for the great info.
I will likely lean 2 MOA, but I now get why 4 MOA is acceptable or even preferable for some.
I'm leaning CompM3, but have to admit, the T1 is appealing. Man... decisions.
The good news is I'm still working on mastering my BUIS, so I'm not in a hurry.
Quick Stick
05-01-11, 21:33
You can't go wrong with either choice. I have several M3's with 2moa dot. I ended up picking up a used M2 with a 4moa dot. I don't shoot either one any better that the other and find not much if any difference between use. To me, dot size doesn't matter, as long as it's Aimpoint!
Failure2Stop
05-02-11, 07:17
Good to know F2S...thanks.
My theory on the whole Aimpoint/EOTech debate is this...I would rather have the EOTech reticle for the 1 MOA dot for precision shooting and I actually like the 65 MOA ring to just center a target up in and be at least close to hitting center mass. I would think that my eyes would pick up that ring quicker as well. . .[snip]
I'll ETA: that the 1 MOA dot is down the list of priorities when it comes to the features of each site. Its really the 65 MOA ring that (I would think) would be easier to pick up than just one dot...as simple as that one dot is....
There are other advantages to the Eo reticle than just the 1 MOA dot. The ring does help in rapid pick-up if the center dot is slightly out of the tube, but the really nice thing is that the shooter can "cheat" with the bottom of the ring for a dead-hold at very close range. It reduces the need to hold-over, which means that you don't have to think about it, which means you can be faster.
The problem is that if the weapon is needed immediately you will probably have to work with a sub-optimal brightness level or possibly no reticle at all.
The ability of the Aimpoint optics to be left on a usable level for years means that the probability of having to employ the weapon without a highly visible dot is greatly reduced. For my "grab and fight" application I am willing to sacrifice the reticle for simplicity.
Along with that, I believe that any weapon that needs to be able to be brought into action immediately should be equipped with irons in the "up" position at all times. That way, should the dot fail, you still retain the ability to place precision shots. Using the dead optic as a big ghost ring is viable (with dedicated practice) at residental interior distances, but precision placement will be easier with even an 0-2 sized aperture (and faster in many instances since the shooter won't be fighting sight alignment.
So in my experience the actual choice is this:
The best reticle for 0-300 that you probably won't be able to use and will have to default to irons
-or-
A highly visible dot that will most likely be there, and if it isn't you just drop into your irons.
Whatever you choose, be sure to include irons, and dedicate at least as much training with them as you do the optic.
F2S
Do you use a 100 zero for all your RDS?
Yes.
I have a t-1 and I like the 4ish MOA dot size just fine as long as it is not turned up past 10, at that point the bloom is too glaring for me. I can see the dot even in bright light at less then 10 so it does not bother me.
A 4 MOA dot keeps the strike of the round within the dot from about 35 yds out to about 315 yds. For the vast majority of shooting needs, this is perfectly adequate.
-Jenrick
El Pistolero
05-03-11, 04:29
Today I shot a brand-new USAF-issue M4 with the new Aimpoint M4s (well new to me, not sure when it came out). This sight has the 2 MOA dot and after qualifying with it today I have to say I really like the 2 MOA dot over other offerings. I previously only had experience with the EOTech and the Aimpoint M2 and their respective 1 and 4 MOA dots. The 4 MOA works fine but I like the 2 MOA dot much better, I feel I can be more precise with it than I can the 4. I am for sure getting the PRO for the 2 MOA dot, the M4s is nice but too much $$$ for me.
http://m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8330&stc=1&d=1304414443
http://m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8331&stc=1&d=1304414571
A 4 MOA dot keeps the strike of the round within the dot from about 35 yds out to about 315 yds. For the vast majority of shooting needs, this is perfectly adequate.
-Jenrick
at what range are you zeroed?
Failure2Stop
05-03-11, 10:39
at what range are you zeroed?
It's what a ballistic calculator will give for an approx 200 meter zero with most ammo. What most people forget about and fail to consider is that their weapon and ammo combination is rarely sub-MOA and the dot isn't terribly sharp, so half of those shots at long range will fall outside the dot. For some people, this isn't a big deal, mostly with the justification that they will never shoot that far at an actual threat, which makes me question the purpose and application of their zero.
ra2bach: Sorry thought I had put that in there. 50 yd zero.
-Jenrick
I use the 4moa dot Aimpoint, sighted-in at 100yds.
I'm only interested in minute-of-chest accuracy, so our needs may be different.
Truth be told, if I'm moving and shooting, it's difficult if not impossible for me to see the difference between a 2moa dot and a 4moa dot.
About the only time I can see a difference is if I'm proned out with the rifle supported, very stable, etc.
A friend has the magnifier and the 2moa dot. After looking through his gun, then putting the magnifier on my gun, I could see the difference and benefit. If I was gonna use the magnifier, I'd get the 2moa dot.
We were shooting 200yd movers at Tiger Valley, and I was getting as many hits as my fellow classmates, so I have no problem with the 4moa (no magnifier) at that distance.
I just dialed down the intensity, which makes the dot appear a bit smaller; less/no blooming.
It was one windy mofo that day, and Kentucky windage was on sale at the five and dime.
From Aimpoint's site:
http://www.aimpoint.com/nc/us/support/faq/
How big is the dot at 100 meters?
AimpointŪ series sights feature either a 4 MOA dot or a 2 MOA dot.
MOA stands for "minutes of angle" and 1 MOA = 1"at 100 yards = 3 cm at 100 meters
If you have a 4 MOA, this means that the dot is about 12 cm at 100 m (4" at 100 yards), 6 cm at 50 m and 3 cm at 25m.
If you have a 2 MOA dot, this means that the dot is about 6 cm at 100m (2" at 100 yards), 3 cm at 50m and 1.5 cm at 25m
ComeAndTakeIt
05-03-11, 17:48
I just ordered the Aimpoint Comp C3 - 2MOA.
Only $369! I couldn't pass it up.
They had 2 and 4 MOA, so I picked two after this thread. :laugh:
I just ordered the Aimpoint Comp C3 - 2MOA.
Only $369! I couldn't pass it up.
They had 2 and 4 MOA, so I picked two after this thread. :laugh:
Where do you get one for $369?
ComeAndTakeIt
08-07-11, 13:22
Where do you get one for $369?
Primary Arms.
I just ordered the Aimpoint Comp C3 - 2MOA.
Only $369! I couldn't pass it up.
They had 2 and 4 MOA, so I picked two after this thread. :laugh:
I bought one of those from primary arms and put it on my ddv1. I'm very pleased, I shoot it better than the rifles I have micro's on.
I bought one of those from primary arms and put it on my ddv1. I'm very pleased, I shoot it better than the rifles I have micro's on.
What would you say the advantages are over the micros?
I seem to see it better and the extra weight doesn't bother me. I shoot the V1 with c3 better than the V5 with micro or spikes middy with micro.
Could be the rifles too but it's probably just me.
My general rule I've set up for myself after years of messing with these things:
SBR (10.3" to 11.5") gets a T-1 with 4 moa dot.
General carbine (14.5" to 16") gets a M3 with a 2 moa dot.
I don't like the M4 as I think it is too bulky.
This allows me to have a large dot for close work on the shorty.
I prefer the larger field of view with the M3 combined with the smaller dot for longer range work.
The T-1 dot is actually more like a 3moa......which I find to be perfect.
FWIW, when looking through a 2 MOA dot, it blooms and looks like a 4 star lug wrench. When looking through the M2 (and only the M2 4 MOA dot), it is a well formed circle. The M3 (and newer ACET diods) seem to bloom a lot, even the 4 MOA dots. Maybe I am just weird like that.
My general rule I've set up for myself after years of messing with these things:
SBR (10.3" to 11.5") gets a T-1 with 4 moa dot.
General carbine (14.5" to 16") gets a M3 with a 2 moa dot.
I don't like the M4 as I think it is too bulky.
This allows me to have a large dot for close work on the shorty.
I prefer the larger field of view with the M3 combined with the smaller dot for longer range work.
I'm pretty much the same, although I like the C3, and am going to try the PRO, instead of the M3. I see the M4 on people's guns all the time and can't for the life of me figure out why they are shelling out that much for an RDS.
I see the M4 on people's guns all the time and can't for the life of me figure out why they are shelling out that much for an RDS.
Cause you dont have to replace the Battery for 8 years. I had to change a Battery once...it was terrible. It took like....3 mintues!:help:
Cause you dont have to replace the Battery for 8 years. I had to change a Battery once...it was terrible. It took like....3 mintues!:help:
And that's worth $300+? :confused:
Poor attempt at humor I guess lol. I was tryin to joke.
I dont own an M4 nor would I ever, Its too big, WAY too expensive and I prefer the M2/M3.
I dont know what the hype is about either. I would rather change my battery every 5 years than every 8 years.
And that's worth $300+? :confused:
I'm with you on this one Rob.....it ain't worth that much to me. Some folks like to buy stuff because it cost more though :D Seriously....I know people like that who will buy the most expensive stuff because they feel that makes it better.
I would say that the main appeal of the M4 is that it takes a AA battery. Why Aimpoint dosen't use AA's more often is beyond me.
It is really nice to be able to buy batteries for your opitic just about anywhere, but whether or not that is worth an extra $300 is up to the buyer.
For my uses its not.
And since it uses the same ACET tech as several other models why does it cost so much more?
loganp0916
08-30-11, 15:32
What battery does the PRO use?
I think its the same as the Comp series batteries. "N" type
I think its the same as the Comp series batteries. "N" type
1/3 N
1/3 N
I didnt know for sure, I thought they took the same one. On the side of the optic, it looks like the same housing as the Comps
I didnt know for sure, I thought they took the same one. On the side of the optic, it looks like the same housing as the Comps
It is the same one, it's called a 1/3N.
N battery
http://www.gigaweb.com/files/productsimages/BL/mn-9100b2.jpg
1/3N battery
http://cdn.nexternal.com/medtech/images/CR13N.jpg
Oh got it...I knew that too. Had a brain fart. lol I just bought and replaced BOTH of those the other day.:D
They say that the M4 is the best Aimpoint yet. I just dont understand why they didnt use the body of the Comp series, instead they went BIGGER with it.
If I was gonna spend $600+, it would be on the T-1. An 8 year battery life is cool but just not appealing to me.
I know its the new M68CCO, why did they skip the M3 and go to the M4?
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