View Full Version : Trigger, FF Rail, or Optic?
I am looking for some advice. I purchased my first modern "fighting rifle" (an LE6920) a few months ago and have about 600 rounds through it. My background in firearms had been primarily competition pistols, clay shooting, and historic and black powder rifles.
Right now my rifle holds 1.5 MOA with M855 which impressed me. However making that happen with the stock trigger takes quite a bit of concentration. I hate the trigger and know what a good trigger feels like. My 1911 triggers feel like hair triggers compared to my AR.
I also had some initial zeroing issues until I started shooting using the mag as a rest point. Resting on the hand guards causes the groups to open up or shift considerably.
I temporarily slapped a JPoint MRD sight that I had on their AR mount to the rifle. I wanted to see if I like the red dot before I considered an Aimpoint. I have an astigmatism and realized I probably wont like a red dot past 50 yards (it would have to be 2MOA). I was considering a 1-4 optic instead.
So that my wife doesn't complain I would like to spread these purchases over the next few months....so what should I get first-a FF rail, trigger (looking at a Geissele), or optic?
Disclaimer: I am enrolled for Carbine I and II over the next 2 months and I'm sitting on 1500 rounds of ammo. So I'm not looking for the "buy more ammo and get some training" answer here.
I know this is not target rifle but accuracy adds a considerable amount to the fun factor for me. Plus I like the confidence accurate rifles bring.
I would definitely get a good optic first. The stock trigger is fine, learn to like it :)
CarlosLehder
05-01-11, 12:49
if you want both you will probably get them down the road, I would purchase the one with a more immediate need
SomeOtherGuy
05-01-11, 12:58
Based on your exact situation, I would get either the trigger or free-float first, and probably the trigger, just because you apparently have the skill to shoot well already, but have identified the trigger as making it more difficult for you than it should be. I have to say that 1.5 MOA seems pretty good for M855 in an LE6920.
I like 1-4x optics but you may not like how it works on an LE6920 with the standard FSB right in the way. Either you'll see a lot of blurry FSB at 1x (and some at higher power), or you'll have to mount the scope so high that cheekweld is poor. You could swap out the FSB for something low profile when you do a FF rail, but you're starting to get into major changes to the rifle at that point and may want to consider whether building a different configuration from scratch would be better and more economical than putting $100's of modifications into the 6920.
Unless you feel that you have mastered your irons such that you can reliably perform with them under stress and in spite of exhaustion, I would not recommend graduating to an optic yet. I made the mistake of graduating too soon like far too many other shooters and regardless of your trust in your optic, it simply doesnt make sense to rely on something so complex and inherently unreliable.
Like others have said, you wont notice the difference in trigger feel unless you're benchrested and I presume you wont be benrested at a carbine class. It is not essential right now.
Therefore, out of the options you've suggested, I'd recommend a rail. It will open up a "whole nother" world of options, (read as: expenses), to you and increase accuracy. If you need rail suggestions, dont hesitate to ask here.
If options were opened up, I'd make sure you have proper load bearing, cleaning and safety equipment for your classes and that you have a good stockpile of mags.
I'd pick up a M.O.E. handguard and an Aimpoint micro (you can still find good deals on R1's).
I woudl also check to see if that class your going to take requires a weapon mounted light. If so, get one and mount it to your MOE.
A free float tube isn't needed for a carbine class and it sounds like you haven't made up your mind what optic you want. I nthat case, get the trigger.
Life is too short to suffer with poor triggers. I realize several folks advise sucking it up and learning to use the stock trigger with all it's disadvantages, but it makes no sense to me.
It takes time and practice to learn to live with a trigger that has too much creep and a gritty pull (if it didn't, why the advice to learn to live with it?). Doesn't that makes it a more advanced technique? Indeed, for as long as I can remember, it's been said by some very knowledgeable people that a good rifleman has learned to shoot well even with poor triggers. It's impossible to avoid all bad triggers, especially when shooting a wide selection of firearms and a shooter will need to learn to deal with them.
If it's an AR issued by your unit or department, ok. Buckle down and learn to put up with it. Perhaps an issue trigger will smooth out with several thousand rounds of use. Then again, it may not. If it's a personal weapon, why not get a smooth reliable trigger right from the start?
A trigger doesn't have to have a light pull to be a good trigger. Indeed, a trigger with a clean, consistent 12 lbs break is much better than a gritty, creepy, inconsistent pull of 3 lbs. Matter of fact, the gritty, creepy, inconsistent pull of 3 lbs can be downright scary! Any trigger that's too light is scary, good or bad.
A good trigger gives the shooter positive control and greater confidence with the firearm. It may not be necessary, but I have never heard of anyone, after installing a good reliable trigger with proper pull weight, wishing they had their gritty, creepy trigger back
I am not advocating never upgrading his trigger. I am simply saying that it is reasonable to become proficient with your common, OEM triggers before advancing.
I would analogize upgrading your trigger right out of the gate and then having to adapt back to a regular-weight, gritty, nasty, peasant-level trigger at some point down the road, (possibly when SHTF), to training for any martial art with competition-weight gloves and then actually fighting with training-weight gloves.
Assuming you're proficient with irons, OP, I actually see no issue with a cheap Aimpoint (R1, H1 or PRO). So either an optic or rail IMO. Just my two cents though.
I can't for the life of me understand people that feel the need to run out and replace the stock AR trigger. It's more than serviceable for a carbine, it's much better than most other triggers in various combat weapons. It's not a precision gun, so having a super nice trigger isn't needed, although it is nice to add one down the road AFTER you get the rest of your gear figured out. I would much rather spend the money on glass, then a rail, then a trigger last if you really feel your trigger is limiting you. If you think the stock trigger is affecting your ability than YOU are the problem honestly.
It sounds like you have a good grasp on using your iron sights and the stock trigger if you are truly holding 1.5" groups @ 100yds with surplus ammo. I would recommend getting the optic first as you will likely get the most benefit from an optic vs the other options on your list. A free float handguard will give you minimal benefits, if any in-terms of your accuracy.
A new trigger may help a bit with accuracy, but an optic will give you a measurable improvement in speed and target aquisition. I would recommend either an Aimpoint C3 (2 moa dot) or a Eotech EXPS 2-0 (1 moa dot).
If you are looking at 1-4x variable power scopes, i really like my trijicon TR24G. For 0-300yds it is in my opinion ideal for the 16" AR platform carbine. Beyond 300yds things get a little sketchy as it does not have a ranging reticle, just a big 'ol green triangle. But again, from 0-300yds you dont need a ranging eeticle if you know your zero and your hold-overs.
Since you want to buy all 3 eventually, I'm not going to tell you to master your irons first or to learn to master the stock single stage trigger first or learn to fundamentally shoot a slick rifle first;)
I would go
Optic which will make you appreciate your 2nd purchase more (1st)
Geissele SSA which will "help" extend your LR shots (2nd)
Centurion Arms Rail (3rd)
I can't for the life of me understand people that feel the need to run out and replace the stock AR trigger. It's more than serviceable for a carbine, it's much better than most other triggers in various combat weapons. It's not a precision gun, so having a super nice trigger isn't needed, although it is nice to add one down the road AFTER you get the rest of your gear figured out. I would much rather spend the money on glass, then a rail, then a trigger last if you really feel your trigger is limiting you. If you think the stock trigger is affecting your ability than YOU are the problem honestly.
A good trigger isn't necessary on an AR, but using the issue trigger is like wearing itchy underwear when you have more comfortable options
Mr. Goodtimes
05-01-11, 14:53
I go with a trigger. I have a Gieselle SSA-E and love it. It's perfect. The S3G may be worth looking at too.
If you are already used to good triggers, the stock AR trigger sucks. Get the better trigger at some point. Whether now of after the optic is debatable.
A good 1-4 optic (or 1-6 if you can afford it) is very usable with a standard FSB so long as it's mounted in a standard high mount (~1.6" above the rail). For that reason I would suggest the free float rail, and possible shaving of the FSB, be last.
Mr. Goodtimes
05-01-11, 17:34
I temporarily slapped a JPoint MRD sight that I had on their AR mount to the rifle. I wanted to see if I like the red dot before I considered an Aimpoint. I have an astigmatism and realized I probably wont like a red dot past 50 yards (it would have to be 2MOA). I was considering a 1-4 optic instead.
I have an astigmatism and use a T1. Inside or where light is dim it gets a little stary but when outside in good light it's a nice clean dot. Even with the dot being jacked up due to my astigmatism, I still prefer it to a 1-4 because of it's compact size, light weight and ease of use from awkward shooting positions.
If I had to go with a variable 1-4 under 3k; it would be the TR24 with triangle reticle. If I had gobs of money to blow it would be a Short Dot. I have a TR24G and love it. It's very fast to acquire, almost as fast as a red dot. The only downsides are weight, reticle washout under weird lighting conditions (you still have a black reticle, just not lit) and it's more difficult to pick up under weird shooting positions than a red dot.
If going with a 1-4, I would do it in conjunction with a nice stock, trigger, and rail system.
It sounds like you have a good grasp on using your iron sights and the stock trigger if you are truly holding 1.5" groups @ 100yds with surplus ammo. I would recommend getting the optic first as you will likely get the most benefit from an optic vs the other options on your list. A free float handguard will give you minimal benefits, if any in-terms of your accuracy.
A new trigger may help a bit with accuracy, but an optic will give you a measurable improvement in speed and target aquisition. I would recommend either an Aimpoint C3 (2 moa dot) or a Eotech EXPS 2-0 (1 moa dot).
If you are looking at 1-4x variable power scopes, i really like my trijicon TR24G. For 0-300yds it is in my opinion ideal for the 16" AR platform carbine. Beyond 300yds things get a little sketchy as it does not have a ranging reticle, just a big 'ol green triangle. But again, from 0-300yds you dont need a ranging eeticle if you know your zero and your hold-overs.
This is the answer.
lethal dose
05-01-11, 18:34
Personally, I would mount a good white light on that carbine before putting any of the items you listed on it. Second, I'd go optic, third I'd go handguard, and I would never even dream of putting a drop in trigger in a fighting weapon.
SomeOtherGuy
05-01-11, 18:51
and I would never even dream of putting a drop in trigger in a fighting weapon.
The nonadjustable Geissele triggers, like the SSA and SDC, are probably less likely to break than the stock GI trigger. Was breakage your concern?
Thanks for the responses so far.
I posted this and then went over to the range to test out some cheap Brown Bear I bought for the carbine class. It worked but it is not accurate stuff!
In any event, I noticed that the JPoint (actually and old Optima 2000) that works fine on a 1911 slide for 11 years and thousands of rounds keeps moving out of zero. Frustrating.
But maybe not as frustrating as the damn trigger. It is horrible. At about 200 rounds the creep almost disappeared but now it back worse than before somehow:blink:
I agree with MistWolf that a good trigger inspires confidence and IMHO safer. Kinda like how a sharp knife is safer than a dull knife when your dicing onions, etc.
So I was thinking of going with the trigger first....but the red dot would be fun if it could stay zeroed. Just to clarify, I have been able, on several occasions, to shoot 1.5 MOA but I need to use a target large enough to allow me to easily center the 3.5 MOA dot in the black. I mentioned that more to show the accuracy of the rifle rather than the shooter. I think i got a good barrel. I shoot about 3 MOA with irons off a rest. If I go with an Aimpoint I'm thinking the a 2 MOA dot will be the best option. Maybe that new PRO?
As far as a rail I have considered FSP cutout models (DD 12" and 9.5" FSP or JPoint VTAC with carbine extender)as well as going the LP gas block and Troy TRX route. If I go with a 1-4 scope I will probably do that. I would like a 1-4 with a BDC reticle but the wife will not be happy if I spend more than $700. I had looked at the Burris TAC 30.
I know the rifle is set up fine already for a "fighting rifle" but fighting rifles get boring if that is all they can do.
A nice match trigger, especially a two stage may feel nicer but will do very little to improve your shooting unless we are talking about a extreme accuracy shot at extended distances. An optic will benefit you far more in terms of general shooting for what a 16" carbine is intended for (0-300yds).
In my opinion a two stage trigger inhibits most shooters ability to shoot drills which require multiple rapid shots on target.
A nice match trigger, especially a two stage may feel nicer but will do very little to improve your shooting unless we are talking about a extreme accuracy shot at extended distances. An optic will benefit you far more in terms of general shooting for what a 16" carbine is intended for (0-300yds).
In my opinion a two stage trigger inhibits most shooters ability to shoot drills which require multiple rapid shots on target.
again agree 100%. when you get running and gunning, you will forget about the trigger, and with a good red dot you will forget about trying to line up rear and front sights, and just improve moving and shooting.
I can't for the life of me understand people that feel the need to run out and replace the stock AR trigger. It's more than serviceable for a carbine, it's much better than most other triggers in various combat weapons. It's not a precision gun, so having a super nice trigger isn't needed, although it is nice to add one down the road AFTER you get the rest of your gear figured out. I would much rather spend the money on glass, then a rail, then a trigger last if you really feel your trigger is limiting you. If you think the stock trigger is affecting your ability than YOU are the problem honestly.
I can't speak from much AR 15 experience, but from my experience with other firearms I would have to disagree.
Years ago, my friend came to the range with me with the Glock his department issued him. He he couldn't put 10 shots inside the black of a 25 yard slow fire target set at 50 feet. I asked to try and what I experienced was one of the heaviest and worst triggers I ever felt. I gave him my carry 4" 1911 with a super crisp 4 lb trigger to try and he instantly improved.
He looked at me and said "I though I just sucked at shooting". Then I let him shoot my Bullseye gun and he could hold the 6-7 ring at 25 yards. I said "See you don't suck as much as you thought :)"
He went back to the barracks and asked the armorer to drop the trigger weight down to 5 or 6 (it turned out to have been 10lbs!) and clean it up, which he did.
He could have said "Get used to it".
The secret to killing a man-sized target to 300 Meters with an issued rifle or carbine is to align your sights with the target and send the round without disturbing that alignment.
Trigger, better ammo, then the sight, then rail.
The secret to killing a man-sized target to 300 Meters with an issued rifle or carbine is to align your sights with the target and send the round without disturbing that alignment.
Trigger, better ammo, then the sight, then rail.
If that was the sole requirement for the role the OP has slated for his AR then I would agree with you. But even then a stock MilSpec trigger will get the job done @ 300yds/m with a skilled shooter pulling it.
I feel a match trigger has a practical role on a precision based AR such as an SPR or a .308 AR in-conjunction with a match barrel and match ammo. On a fighting AR with a 16" barrel it does not offer many advantages if any.
On a "Fighting Rifle" as the OP stated, I feel the optic would offer more advantages than a trigger or a free-float handguard.
I wouldn't call the Geisselle SSA a match trigger.
A good trigger, yes. Match trigger, no
lethal dose
05-02-11, 03:54
My vote is still for a white light. I feel it's one of the most important pieces of kit when it comes to "weapons."
If your intention is to sit at a bench and do nothing but focus on the trigger, then get the trigger. Beyond that they are a waste of money IMO. I have used several examples of fancy triggers and while I have noticed them at the zero range for a brief second, it's never even crossed my mind after that until I have a bobble because I'm not used to the two-stage when trying to shoot fast.
These triggers are great for benchrest guns, DMRs, sniper rifles, etc. But for general purpose carbines they are a transfer device being foisted on us by those that never leave the bench.
Oh, and I'd go take the class with what you have now. You may find that it's less of an issue than you think. I recently took a carbine class with an iron-sighted BCM Dissipator, to include a night shoot as well as shooting from 3 yards to 200. Other than a few drills here and there I had no issue that gear would resolve. Oh, and I put an SSA trigger in it thinking I needed that crutch, and it helped me not a whit and bobbled when I was shooting fast at close rang.e
To throw in an unsolicited opinion about triggers. If you have a place where you can do something like this (I used to do this as a kid with a .303 enfield): try sprinting 25 yds - 3 shots on target offhand, repeat 10 times. The last thing on your mind will be trigger feeling.
Of course if you want to shoot from a bench or prone without any time limit you will notice it more.
SWATcop556
05-02-11, 05:46
As was suggested I would run the class with what you have and see if you even need some of this gear you want.
For me the necessary upgrades for my rifles are in this order:
1) white light and quality sling (two point for general use and single point for specific applications ie. CQB)
2) quality RDS and mount (I prefer the H1/T1)
3) rail system on certain rifles (not every rifle needs rails)
For my intended roles I have no use for after market triggers. I only really notice a difference in triggers when I'm shooting to zero.
If your intention is to sit at a bench and do nothing but focus on the trigger, then get the trigger. Beyond that they are a waste of money IMO. I have used several examples of fancy triggers and while I have noticed them at the zero range for a brief second, it's never even crossed my mind after that until I have a bobble because I'm not used to the two-stage when trying to shoot fast.
These triggers are great for benchrest guns, DMRs, sniper rifles, etc. But for general purpose carbines they are a transfer device being foisted on us by those that never leave the bench.
Oh, and I'd go take the class with what you have now. You may find that it's less of an issue than you think. I recently took a carbine class with an iron-sighted BCM Dissipator, to include a night shoot as well as shooting from 3 yards to 200. Other than a few drills here and there I had no issue that gear would resolve. Oh, and I put an SSA trigger in it thinking I needed that crutch, and it helped me not a whit and bobbled when I was shooting fast at close rang.e
Were the shots bobbled because the carbine had a good trigger? Or were those shots bobbled because the trigger was a two stage with a reset that doesn't work with the shooting style? (I'm not going to suggest training with a two stage trigger until "getting it". That would be a ridiculous and disrespectful thing to say.) When a two stage doesn't mesh with the shooter's style, especially a good shooter, it's not a good trigger for the job.
The SSA isn't a good trigger because it's a two stage. It's a good trigger because it has a consistent, predictable break. It would be a good trigger if it were a single stage or if it had a shorter reset. If there is one thing I don't like about the SSA-E I got, it's the long reset.
A good trigger isn't a magic pill. It's not going to make anyone a better shooter. But but good trigger control is easier with a good trigger. If one gets a trigger as a crutch, of course it's not going to work.
A good trigger can be an aid to fast shooting. It certainly won't slow you down. Gathering my thoughts for this post does lead me to the conclusion that if a gritty, inconsistent trigger is good enough for rapid shots for CQB, it's good enough. Still, a trigger with a clean consistent break (does NOT have to be two stage) would be better
Failure2Stop
05-02-11, 14:26
If you want to set your carbine up for optimal use in home defense:
Light
RDS (if you already shoot one on a pistol it won't be a problem on a rifle)
If you want to shoot smaller groups with irons:
Trigger
Barrel
Rail
If you want to shoot simply for group size:
Optic
Trigger
Barrel
Rail
Were the shots bobbled because the carbine had a good trigger? Or were those shots bobbled because the trigger was a two stage with a reset that doesn't work with the shooting style? (I'm not going to suggest training with a two stage trigger until "getting it". That would be a ridiculous and disrespectful thing to say.) When a two stage doesn't mesh with the shooter's style, especially a good shooter, it's not a good trigger for the job.
The SSA isn't a good trigger because it's a two stage. It's a good trigger because it has a consistent, predictable break. It would be a good trigger if it were a single stage or if it had a shorter reset. If there is one thing I don't like about the SSA-E I got, it's the long reset.
A good trigger isn't a magic pill. It's not going to make anyone a better shooter. But but good trigger control is easier with a good trigger. If one gets a trigger as a crutch, of course it's not going to work.
A good trigger can be an aid to fast shooting. It certainly won't slow you down. Gathering my thoughts for this post does lead me to the conclusion that if a gritty, inconsistent trigger is good enough for rapid shots for CQB, it's good enough. Still, a trigger with a clean consistent break (does NOT have to be two stage) would be better
A "good trigger" is a misnomer, and it implies that something is wrong with the stock part, which is a dishonest implication.
The issue I encountered was due to it being two-stage, but that's beside the point. I'll take the money for a good trigger and put it into ammo and breaking in the "bad" stock trigger all day, every day. Because in addition to the breakin of the trigger you're buying something you can't get any other way: skill.
Suggesting a trigger replacement, a $160-$250+ trigger replacement no less, to a new shooter is asinine for anything other than napping at the bench.
GO SHOOT THE GUN!
A "good trigger" is a misnomer, and it implies that something is wrong with the stock part, which is a dishonest implication.
Just to play Devils' advocate couldn't you theoretically apply that thinking to every aspect of a tier 1 rifle with the implication that having anything but a bone stock rifle is pointless? Why put on an optic at all. Wouldn't that imply that there is something wrong with iron sights?
Being that this is my only AR right now I would like it to do several things well as I don't have the opportunity to shoot carbine courses ever weekend.
Just to play Devils' advocate couldn't you theoretically apply that thinking to every aspect of a tier 1 rifle with the implication that having anything but a bone stock rifle is pointless? Why put on an optic at all. Wouldn't that imply that there is something wrong with iron sights?
Being that this is my only AR right now I would like it to do several things well as I don't have the opportunity to shoot carbine courses ever weekend.
An optic will give you a measurable benefit in speed on-target and in low light shooting over iron sights.
The man already knows how a good trigger should break:
Right now my rifle holds 1.5 MOA with M855 which impressed me. However making that happen with the stock trigger takes quite a bit of concentration. I hate the trigger and know what a good trigger feels like. My 1911 triggers feel like hair triggers compared to my AR.
He said he didn't want just the "Buy more ammo and training" answer (he's got the ammo he needs and has training scheduled).
Mechanically (since he already knows how to shoot) and since he has a Colt as a baseline his options are (A) get the factory single stage trigger cleaned up, polished, or tuned, or (B) get an after-market trigger that breaks cleanly and at less than the average 5-8 pounds of a factory 6920. That could be either a single stage (like a JP or an Accuracy Speaks) or a two-stage.
He doesn't NEED any of the gadgets, per se, but the trigger will help the most, the optic (with astigmatism) may or may not help, and a free-float is not absolutely required.
The M4gery with a stock trigger is a fine weapon. Most shooters will never shoot one to its potential. The majority who train fast will shoot close (inside of 50 Meters). OP wants to shoot to at least 300 -- you can do it with a stock gun, but he is at a level where he can tell the difference.
OP could try an Aimpoint coupled with an iron sight using the large aperture. The focal effect (penumbra) can help sharpen up the shape of the dot.
As was suggested I would run the class with what you have and see if you even need some of this gear you want.
For me the necessary upgrades for my rifles are in this order:
1) white light and quality sling (two point for general use and single point for specific applications ie. CQB)
2) quality RDS and mount (I prefer the H1/T1)
3) rail system on certain rifles (not every rifle needs rails)
For my intended roles I have no use for after market triggers. I only really notice a difference in triggers when I'm shooting to zero.
This all the way^^.
Although based on my personal preference, I'm going to switch it up a little:
If I were you (OP) first I'd get a good sling. Because having to carry the rifle around when you need your hands is annoying. And trying to pull off a transition to your handgun will be impossible.
Then a rail system. Here's why: IMHO, from what I've seen of the curent crop of AR accessories, as well as countless people's personal rifles, I feel that having a rail makes mounting any other accessories much easier, and it also provides you with more options for mounting your sling.
Of course, a good light is a must if you have any inkling of using this as a defensive weapon- can't shoot what you can't see.... If you can't swing a light purchase and rail install at the same time, get the light first- there's other options to mount it without a rail.
Finally an RDS- Definately makes fast target aquisition easier. And all the issues with your sight not holding zero will go away with a quality optic like an Aimpoint or Eotech. However, I just sold mine, partly because I felt that I needed to just suck it up and get used to using the irons, instead of wimping out with a red dot.:laugh:
Of course if you're already proficient, then this is a moot point.
But what do I know. Just my few pennies.
Seems like it's all on the table for the OP...but I sure think this is one of those watershed threads for different philosophies on set up.
On the sling, I figured he already has that covered.
On the light, sure that's great for home defense. Why not a tritium front post to go with it. Hmmm, get a suppressor, too!
But I've gone the "have the stock trigger professionally tuned" way, as have many here, and I would NEVER do that again. Especially for hard use, carbine class, home defense, etc. So 1911 owner, beware.
And others much more than I, who have only shot competitively a few times, will affirm the above, that the GI trigger will do fine except for tiny groups at distance (umm, that's not the modus operandi of a carbine!) and will get better with use.
And to re-iterate, the red dot WILL make you faster AND better. Maybe just a tiny bit, if you're good already...but take away the aiming challenge and you can learn to get better at the REST. And of course perform better when tested.
Being that this is my only AR right now I would like it to do several things well...
I recommend you get the trigger before your class. It sounds like you want the trigger for reasons other than having determined the standard trigger isn't up to the modern fighting rifle job. (and that's OK) If you get it now you get to train with it in your class.
I do not care for a two stage trigger on a fighting rifle. Like rob_s, I'm used to the reset of the standard trigger and will have an issue when I try to run a two stage fast. I think it is mainly a training issue but I don't need one to shoot a carbine well so I stick with the GI trigger.
OP could try an Aimpoint coupled with an iron sight using the large aperture. The focal effect (penumbra) can help sharpen up the shape of the dot.
Yes. I noticed that the dot looks better sometimes with the rear sight up. I just didn't know there was a word for it.
I do already have a Vicker's 2 point sling.
I didn't get a light yet because my home defense gun is a 1911.
I was considering a Geissele for all the obvious reason plus their shop is 3 miles from my house.
I am starting to think that a trigger that mimics a crisp 4lb 1911 trigger would be a good option....if I decide to change that first. That is what I have the most experience with and what I'm accustomed too.
For rails I really wanted to run something slick and if I had to get rid of the FSP I would do it. However the DD 12" Omega X FSP can be had for $200 which is tempting....though heavy.
I had read in previous posts that the FSP is not a big deal with a 1-4 optic but some here are saying it is. I have never looked through such a setup.
Does anyone know of a picture posted looking through a scope at 1 power with a FSP?
Well you said it yourself, that it was your "fighting rifle".
if that's the case...
imho:
1)LED weaponlight to ID your targets
2)Back up iron sight (many prefer fixed. u can just chop ur CarryHandle) and train with them too
3)Eotech/aimpoint.
i wouldn't worry about a rail right away. you can mount a weapon light and slings on many different ways. shooting both a MOE railed carbine and DD Lite rail, for me personally, i didn't notice it increasing my rifle's accuracy
nothing wrong with the milspec trigger. it'll probably be more reliable.
You won't see guys like Travis Haley running any fancy triggers.
2 pages of users here are giving you very honest advice, but if you're so set on getting the trigger than go ahead and get one, you don't need justify for it
and yeah. i know my 9.5" FSP is relatively heavy, but if you wanted a lightweight option. reading tells me that the VTAC rail is very nice.
warlord260
05-03-11, 02:59
I am not advocating never upgrading his trigger. I am simply saying that it is reasonable to become proficient with your common, OEM triggers before advancing.
I would analogize upgrading your trigger right out of the gate and then having to adapt back to a regular-weight, gritty, nasty, peasant-level trigger at some point down the road, (possibly when SHTF), to training for any martial art with competition-weight gloves and then actually fighting with training-weight gloves.
Assuming you're proficient with irons, OP, I actually see no issue with a cheap Aimpoint (R1, H1 or PRO). So either an optic or rail IMO. Just my two cents though.
Never really heard of any true martial arts that train with boxing style gloves. MMA is not a true martial arts.
wetidlerjr
05-03-11, 06:28
Originally Posted by Pax
I am not advocating never upgrading his trigger. I am simply saying that it is reasonable to become proficient with your common, OEM triggers before advancing.
I would analogize upgrading your trigger right out of the gate and then having to adapt back to a regular-weight, gritty, nasty, peasant-level trigger at some point down the road, (possibly when SHTF), to training for any martial art with competition-weight gloves and then actually fighting with training-weight gloves.
Assuming you're proficient with irons, OP, I actually see no issue with a cheap Aimpoint (R1, H1 or PRO). So either an optic or rail IMO. Just my two cents though.
Never really heard of any true martial arts that train with boxing style gloves. MMA is not a true martial arts.
I agree with Pax although I would substitute "inexpensive" for "cheap" to get back ON TOPIC. :D
2 pages of users here are giving you very honest advice, but if you're so set on getting the trigger than go ahead and get one, you don't need justify for it
I understand and appreciate that and the responses - plus I haven't decided to go for a trigger first. I should have said it was a fighting rifle not my fighting rifle...its not a target grade rifle despite being pretty accurate.
My goal is to make a gun that will be useful, practical, and fun to shoot. Travis Haley uses his rifle in a tactical fashion everyday. If I had the opportunity to do that I may go about this differently.
The reality is that I have 1 AR right now. Setting it up solely for "fighting" or carbine courses when the odds of me fighting with it are very small and there are limited amount of courses for me to take seem wasteful to me. I would imagine the large majority of the members here are in similar situations.
My primary "fighting" weapon right now is a 4" .45 cal 1911 which has been tuned and is as accurate as reliability will allow. It is actually very accurate (with match ammo groups 1 1/2" from a rest at 25 yards), very reliable, and hence fun for me to shoot. The trigger breaks clean at 4 lbs. With this pistol, if a shot goes outside the 7 ring (on a NRA 50ft pistol target) at 50 feet I know it was me and I work to improve. Also, because of all this I feel much more confident when I carry it.
So I want to build this rifle in the same fashion. I don't see why I can't have it both ways.
I had already committed to getting a new trigger, rail, and optic prior to my OP. I was asking advice on what to get first.
The responses have been interesting, helpful, and insightful.
The_War_Wagon
05-03-11, 08:35
....so what should I get first-a FF rail, trigger (looking at a Geissele), or optic?
Optic. Handle some other manufacturers AR's with FACTORY TRIGGERS some time; there are plenty WORSE out there than Colt's! Railed handguards are nice too - primarily to hang lights off of - but in & of themselves, they don't help you acquire the target any better.
Optic, ammo, mags - there's your next priorities.
If you are 3 miles from Geissele Automatics visit Bill and try them for yourself. If you don't like any of them you've not invested anything but a nice walk.
You've put some thought into it, now prioritize wants and desires from absolute NEED.
If it doesn't keep you interested, isn't fun, or help you shoot better and faster you need to figure out what will.
Don't waste money on something you can't enjoy nor exploit to develop and make you better.
Trying to do the Vulcan mind-meld thing...
Yeah, I think I see where you're coming from now. Nice kit so far. If I were you I'd walk over there and check out the 3G flat trigger. I was "that" close to getting one with the Midway special last month.
But then I'd get back to saving for the optic.
And do the rail later. maybe Omega DD.
http://www.aimpoint.com/us/products/get-the-most-out-of-your-sight/how-to-improve-your-shooting-how-to-shoot-with-a-red-dot-sight
There's little to gain from an "upgraded" trigger. I'd spend my money on a quality RDS (I like the T1). Then I'd worry about getting a light.
I agree totally with Mistwolf and once again Sinister in regards to triggers.
If you want to handicap yourself with a shitty 8-10lb colt type gi trigger...than fine, just don't pass it out as definitive advice as many believe it's counterproductive. Same folks that rag on using high quality triggers I sure stick BAD levers and KNS pins on their guns...go figure.
I agree totally with Mistwolf and once again Sinister in regards to triggers.
If you want to handicap yourself with a shitty 8-10lb colt type gi trigger...than fine, just don't pass it out as definitive advice as many believe it's counterproductive. Same folks that rag on using high quality triggers I sure stick BAD levers and KNS pins on their guns...go figure.
oh dear lord.
You guys dole out this nonsense like nobody could ever hope to hit a 2' sheet of plywood at 10' without some fancy-ass trigger.
You guys dole out this nonsense like nobody could ever hope to hit a 2' sheet of plywood at 10' without some fancy-ass trigger.
If a nice trigger was just as reliable what would be the benefit of not having it besides saving the money? Wouldn't said trigger add to the versatility of any rifle?
If your only shooting 2' targets at 10' why would you even bother with an optic? Or a rifle for that mater?
oh dear lord.
You guys dole out this nonsense like nobody could ever hope to hit a 2' sheet of plywood at 10' without some fancy-ass trigger.
Oh dear Lord? Seriously?
Some people have a different view on the importance marksmanship.
I am sure you will get used to the AR trigger. in all honesty unless you plan on scoping, bi-pod, and the works, the stock trigger should be fine. it is not intended to feel like your (insert custom made) 1911. Nor is a glock, XD, USP, etc...
That being said, I think you should get in this order: optic (easier on the eyes), trigger, then FF.
Since your taking a carbine class, here is what I would recommend.
1st- optic- reason being is that I would assume you have mastered irons and with worsening eyesight and optic would be better for that purpose.
2nd- trigger- while the factory trigger might be not be as tacticool as the match triggers, it can be mastered just as is.
3rd- everything else (light, rail, etc)- since your carbine classes will be shooting 50yds and under (most classes are geared this way) they will just add weight. Unless of course your taking low light classes...
My choice would be an optic. ACOG if you've got the green, or an aimpoint or EOTECH.
justin_247
05-06-11, 06:53
Optic! The stock Colt trigger is fine and you can shoot plenty accurate with it - an optic will serve you better in your upcoming classes.
I have an Aimpoint ML2 that I love and a Trijicon TR24G, which is especially handy, on order.
Get an Aimpoint PRO or an Aimpoint Micro and be done with it.
Good trigger control will get you much further along than a good trigger will. Granted I'm fairly new to AR's, but the principles hold true for all rifle and handgun disciplines. Nothing in this world will teach you trigger control like a shitty trigger.
I would go with an optic. That paid the most dividends for me, I'm sure it will with you as well.
TC
- while the factory trigger might be not be as tacticool as the match triggers, it can be mastered just as is.
From some of the responses I read on this forum it seems that some feel only a STOCK trigger is "tacticool".
From some of the responses I read on this forum it seems that some feel only a STOCK trigger is "tacticool".
Stock triggers are practical and reliable...and standardized. For use with a carbine, little accuracy can be gained from a fancy-pants match trigger.
How far do you shoot a carbine? 200 yards and less? How large are the targets? 36"x24"? If you can hold 6 MOA (assuming the carbine shoots 2 MOA for a total of 12 MOA) with the "shitty" stock trigger, you're still going to make hits. If the stock trigger is holding you from shooting to that standard, you need to practice. All putting match triggers in carbines accomplishes is reducing reliability, hurting the logistics, and lightening your wallet.
ETA:
I fell for the "match" trigger crap quite a few years ago. I had a match trigger installed in my first carbine. It failed on me at a very inopportune time that I'd rather not get into here. The adjustments constantly wandered around causing all sorts of issues. I went back to the stock trigger quickly. I've got a couple of Geissele SSAs now, but that's as far as I venture. It helps with my SPR's accuracy shooting beyond 200 yards, but at under 100 yards installed in the carbine, my groups are not much if any better than with a stock trigger. I'm somebody that does most of my shooting with precision rifles and varmint rifles.
A Geissele trigger would be what I would consider unless someone proves to me they are a liability compared to what I have. As long as reliability is not compromised I personally don't buy in to the "its accurate enough" argument.
This is my first AR but not my first gun. I am sound in the fundamentals of shooting and I believe they are the same for any weapon. My introduction to shooting (16 years ago) was Bulls-eye pistol. I had some excellent coaching at the very beginning so I never had a chance to learn bad habits. I competed for 8 years and shot "Expert" but scored above 95% (master) on several occasions. If I miss I like to know that it was me who missed.
The rifle and the shooter are capable of hitting 36"x24" at 200 yards but I would prefer to be able to hit 12" targets at the same distance. I believe that my barrel is more than capable of this. I have seen nothing that would suggest that I can't have a "fighting" rifle that does this.
And if hitting big targets at short distances was all I wanted to do, I don't think I really need a rifle at all. For me, that would get boring.
As I've said before, I have committed to getting a FF rail, trigger, and optic but am trying to prioritize between the 3.
SomeOtherGuy
05-06-11, 10:23
Regarding reliability and durability of the Geissele triggers, you may find this thread interesting:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6345
I have never heard of any issues of reliability or durability when comparing the Geissele to a USGI trigger or any other trigger. I'll note that I'm not in the industry and I don't run my personal ARs nearly hard enough to speak from personal experience. Of course, I have read about reliability and durability issues with many other aftermarket triggers (again, not personal experience.)
A Geissele trigger would be what I would consider unless someone proves to me they are a liability compared to what I have. As long as reliability is not compromised I personally don't buy in to the "its accurate enough" argument.
This is my first AR but not my first gun. I am sound in the fundamentals of shooting and I believe they are the same for any weapon. My introduction to shooting (16 years ago) was Bulls-eye pistol. I had some excellent coaching at the very beginning so I never had a chance to learn bad habits. I competed for 8 years. If I miss I like to know that it was me who missed.
The rifle and the shooter are capable of hitting 36"x24" at 200 yards but I would prefer to be able to hit 12" targets at the same distance. I believe that my barrel is more than capable of this. I have seen nothing that would suggest that I can't have a "fighting" rifle that does this.
And if hitting big targets at short distances was all I wanted to do, I don't think I really need a rifle at all. For me, that would get boring.
As I've said before, I have committed to getting a FF rail, trigger, and optic but am trying to prioritize between the 3.
The liability is the limited logistics. The Geissel is a fine trigger, but its of limited benefit. The point is the carbine with stock trigger is fully capable of making hits to beyond the range of the user. The trigger is going to improvement bench shooting and varmint hunting, but not combat accuracy--I shoot marginally better with mine than I do with a stock 6920 trigger and I'm sure I have no magical trigger manipulation skills beyond the average shooter. If you want it to be as accurate as possible, you bought the wrong gun and are looking into the wrong discipline. The carbine's practical accuracy is already better than 99.9% of shooters, and I'll be you're included. You'll be much more suited with an optic than a trigger. Is shooting 1/2" smaller groups from the bench at 100 yards really worth $180? By the way, your carbine is perfectly capable of hitting a 12" target at 200 yards without an upgraded trigger.
If you want it to be as accurate as possible, you bought the wrong gun.
I want THIS and all my guns to be as accurate as possible regardless of their style or purpose.
I don't differentiate between "combat accuracy", "practical accuracy", or what ever. Accuracy is accuracy. The average gun owner is a horrible shot and works little to improve on it.
I understand that I come from a different reference point and shooting background from most people on this forum, but I know plenty of people that can out shoot a stock carbine.
I'm sure a 1/12 barrel with 55 gr bullets is "combat accurate"...no?
I want THIS and all my guns to be as accurate as possible regardless of their style or purpose.
So install a 2 oz benchrest trigger, a plain FF-tube, a 24" straight taper barrel with no flash hider, a Magpul PRS stock, a Nightforce 8-32x benchrest scope, etc.
Fighting guns are supposed to be practical. Shoot the crap out of it in stock form and figure out what is limiting the effectiveness for yourself. Take a carbine class or two. Run some drills. After you've put thousands of rounds from through it, you'll know where your ability and the effectiveness of the carbine ends. Then you'll know what will give you the most benefit rather than taking the advice of stranger on the internet. You'll find most people that have used their carbines extensively will get a RDS, a good sling, and a light before they worry about match-triggers.
So install a 2 oz benchrest trigger, a plain FF-tube, a 24" straight taper barrel with no flash hider, a Magpul PRS stock, a Nightforce 8-32x benchrest scope, etc.
That would no longer qualify as a "fighting" rifle but I get your point.
I've put about 600 rounds through it now.
I'm not trying to belittle your experience, but 600 is pretty miniscule, honestly. Have you done any drills? Or have you been mostly standing popping off rounds at a single target? Many of those rounds from the bench? A two-day carbine course is going to be 500+ rounds.
Unless you feel that you have mastered your irons such that you can reliably perform with them under stress and in spite of exhaustion, I would not recommend graduating to an optic yet. I made the mistake of graduating too soon like far too many other shooters and regardless of your trust in your optic, it simply doesnt make sense to rely on something so complex and inherently unreliable.
Like others have said, you wont notice the difference in trigger feel unless you're benchrested and I presume you wont be benrested at a carbine class. It is not essential right now.
Therefore, out of the options you've suggested, I'd recommend a rail. It will open up a "whole nother" world of options, (read as: expenses), to you and increase accuracy. If you need rail suggestions, dont hesitate to ask here.
If options were opened up, I'd make sure you have proper load bearing, cleaning and safety equipment for your classes and that you have a good stockpile of mags.
All good advice to which I'll add my US$0.02:
If you don't need a rail (i.e. to mount "accessories" that can't be mounted on something like a MOE) I wouldn't get a rail...you won't pick up much if anything in "practical" accuracy and you'll pay a weight penalty for it.
Most of my carbines run standard delta rings/handguards.
Sounds like you have navigated past the propensity of advice to decide, but I'll try one last time. Think of running that class with 500+ fast rounds and a carbine pulled against your shoulder...to be effective you will NOT be worried about the particular trigger control vis a vis your 1911 and instead about the target. You have heard it from plenty of guys who know and don't care a whit about tacticool. Many people would make the same decision as you based on the vast price difference, and to them I'd say, "keeping saving."
oh dear lord.
You guys dole out this nonsense like nobody could ever hope to hit a 2' sheet of plywood at 10' without some fancy-ass trigger.
So would NGA and KAC be served better by dropping the GA trigger in the X7 and the KAC 2 stage match trigger in the SR15 IWS's, or perhaps LMT dropping the option of having the Defender lowers w. the LMT 2 stage trigger....?
I sure as hell hope not, those three companies seem to understand that the shooter never has to be "ordained" on some shitty gi trigger in order to benefit from the huge advantages a GA or KAC trigger bring to the table.
I'm not trying to belittle your experience, but 600 is pretty miniscule, honestly. Have you done any drills? Or have you been mostly standing popping off rounds at a single target? Many of those rounds from the bench? A two-day carbine course is going to be 500+ rounds.
I appreciate your advice and everyone else's. However part of the equation is that I won't be attending carbine classes every week. I would like the gun to be enjoyable to shoot when I'm not in a class prepping for events that will most likely never happen.
I wasn't implying 600 rounds was a lot but it has been enough for me to realize (while zeroing from a BENCH) that shooting tite groups with that trigger is QUITE an effort. Also, the point of impact shifts and/or the groups open when resting the rifle on the forearm. This was the biggest surprise to me hence the desire to FF the barrel. And yes, I'm proficient enough to notice the difference.
I totally get that these things don't mater when your shooting big targets at close distances. But I want the rifle to be as versatile as reliability will allow. I also get that true marksmanship especially outside pistol range is not a big deal to many on this forum.
For actual HD scenarios I'm still not convinced my pistols or shotguns are not the logical choice. Maybe these courses will change my mind.
Not many here interested in true marksmanship? Whoa...
ETA: by the way, you are currently in general discussion. Precision is here: https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=-1&f=172
Not many here interested in true marksmanship? Whoa, guess you post more than you read. Fella, you asked about getting good with your carbine, and you got the answer. Good luck.
Well I guess it wasn't the best choice of words but if you read many of the responses in this thread or similar ones a very popular response to anything regarding accuracy is something on the lines of "why?" or "you don't need to hit anything smaller than 2' x3' at 20 yards". I've never really considered that marksmanship. If you can't hit targets like that I would say there is a safety issue. No insult was intended.
And I have been reading this board everyday for several months.
Also, I never asked about getting good with my carbine in this thread.
Well I guess it wasn't the best choice of words but if you read many of the responses in this thread or similar ones a very popular response to anything regarding accuracy is something on the lines of "why?" or "you don't need to hit anything smaller than 2' x3' at 20 yards". I've never really considered that marksmanship. If you can't hit targets like that I would say there is a safety issue. No insult was intended.
And I have been reading this board everyday for several months.
Also, I never asked about getting good with my carbine in this thread.
I understand exactly what your talking about and you just have to understand that you are holding the bar much higher in terms of accuracy and performance than most are....I often sum it up as many here adhere to the policy of...why use a filet mignon, when a sloppy joe gets the job done.
KIA VS. BMW....both certainly get you from point A to point B, one just does it a helluva lot more differently than the other.
I purchased my first modern "fighting rifle" (an LE6920) ...Right now my rifle holds 1.5 MOA with M855 which impressed me. ... I wanted to see if I like the red dot before I considered an Aimpoint... I am enrolled for Carbine I and II over the next 2 months and I'm sitting on 1500 rounds of ammo...I know this is not target rifle...
I know, very selective...anyhow, I recommend you look at the precision-semi auto forum.
Due to one very rough mil trigger, I was impressed to get 1/2" with irons at 50 yards, while concentrating at the bench. But when "fighting" skills--moving, odd positions--all that sub-MOA goes away.
Oh, and OP couldn't afford 2 BMWs at once...so if he wants something that shoots "like his 1911," sure the trigger is more important than a red dot, which we assume does not ride on the 1911. I believe he has since started another post to that effect...
I believe he has since started another post to that effect...
Yes and there were over a dozen posts with about 4 actually answering the question. The rest were "why", "this is nonsense", etc.
One dope even stated that such questions relegated you to the short bus. All I could think of was "Comic Book Guy" from the Simpson's.
I guess I am holding the bar at a different level.
http://lundberg.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/comic-book-guy.jpg
That's unfortunate, however think about 2 things: most people who initially visit AR-GD are barf.com converts and need to know that yes, they can get a quality AR for $900. Requiring a $200 trigger to shoot well would discourage them unnecessarily. 2nd, there ARE more carbine class/fighting guys here than LR/bench. So gauge the responses likewise and ask questions in the precision forum, and you'll get a different mix of responses.
ETA: Put another way, few here would dispute you can shoot more precisely at longer ranges with a Bushnell 10x40 and a Geissele, versus the same money into an Aimpoint using the mil trigger...you just need to ask the right question.
ETA: and to quote from markm at the current 50 yard Aimpoint thread:
"Anyone who knows how to use them and has reasonable vision should shoot better with irons....That group is fine for an RDS. They're not meant for shooting groups. Discount that flyer to the left and you're doing pretty good."
So you're going to insult people for giving you good, practical advice? Geez, man, you are in the wrong place. Get whatever the hell you want to spend your money on, but don't get your panties in a wad when you ask people their opinion and they give it to you.
UGH...come on dude. I already clarified what I meant but if you want to take an insult from it than so be it. Sounds like you do but absolutely no insult was meant or implied.
AGAIN....what I meant is that in regards to marksmanship/weapon accuracy people set the bar at different levels. I don't buy into "Combat Accuracy". Accuracy is accuracy IMO. I'm not an "its good enough" guy with anything I own so why would this be different. Show me that a Geissele trigger is a liability and I will reconsider.
I started in shooting with competition grade weapons not tactical weapons so I have acquired a taste for nice triggers and accurate weapons. Read the posts...I realize this is a "fighting weapon" but options like a trigger and a rail do not negatively affect that.
Look at the OP. I was not asking for opinion on whether I NEEDED this stuff but rather advice on how to priorities what I ALREADY DECIDED ON.
I would never have asked for opinions on IF I should get a new trigger because its quite obvious with a quick search what many people here think.
As I posted to you before, you've decided on something you've never tried and you've never run a course with your gun. You've put a meager 600 rounds down the pipe. The 6920 isn't a match gun. You don't need the match trigger and people are telling you go for a red-dot sight and light first.
And quit this bullshit about "holding the bar to a different level". I'm going to go as far to say that people around here will runs circles around you with an AR with stock triggers. Your AR15 is already more accurate than you are.
As I posted to you before, you've decided on something you've never tried and you've never run a course with your gun. You've put a meager 600 rounds down the pipe. The 6920 isn't a match gun. You don't need the match trigger and people are telling you go for a red-dot sight and light first.
And quit this bullshit about "holding the bar to a different level". I'm going to go as far to say that people around here will runs circles around you with an AR with stock triggers. Your AR15 is already more accurate than you are.
How do you know what I've tried and what I haven't? How do you know how accurate I am? OH the 6920 isn't a match gun?? Thanks for the heads up, I was planning on taking it to Camp Perry with me this year:rolleyes:
I don't NEED to go out for a steak tonight but I am. Why? Because I can afford to and it beats the hell out of a ham sandwich. And yes, I realize my body doesn't require steak to function.
justin_247
05-09-11, 11:38
To the OP:
You ask 500 people on their opinions regarding priorities, you're going to get different answers from everybody. Very few people have the same sets of priorities and preferences, especially when it comes to things like optics, triggers, and rail systems where there are a thousand choices available for dozens of different uses that all those people are using their rifles for.
With this in mind, it is a complete waste of your time for you to argue with people about their priorities and opinions. This thread could go on for decades as it currently stands.
I say that you go shoot other people's rifles and after you've done this for a good amount of time, select what clicks for you time and time again.
You said earlier you need to try the SSA...
You've only put 600 rounds down the tube........
As I've told mentioned as well as others in the thread, shoot the damn gun and figure out where the limitations are and decide for yourself. If your vast experience of 600 rounds has proven to you that a trigger is a MUST-HAVE and hindering your ability to progress, then purchase one.
Further, triggers will NOT make a gun more accurate. Of the things you've asked about, the only item that will improve the accuracy of your 6920 is a free-floating rail.
A red dot sight will help the user acquire targets faster and in low light.
A trigger reduces the effort and concentration of the shooter, to keep the sights aligned throughout the trigger pull.
Enjoy your new trigger.
If your vast experience of 600 rounds has proven to you that a trigger is a MUST-HAVE and hindering your ability to progress, then purchase one.
Further, triggers will NOT make a gun more accurate. Of the things you've asked about, the only item that will improve the accuracy of your 6920 is a free-floating rail.
My 20 years of shooting and 10's of thousands of rounds fired through pistols, shotguns, and rifles (mostly in a competitive -read accuracy is important- application) have convinced me of it. The time clock on that trigger started with the first dry fire when I thought "With the exception of a few Glocks and some cheap .22 rifles, that's one of the worst triggers I have ever felt."
And yes, I fully understand what role a trigger plays in accuracy.
That being said I will probably go with the optic first because I have some classes coming up where the benefits of a nice trigger mean less. If you can't hit center mass on a man sized target at 50 yards you are a safety hazard IMHO. Plus my temporary MRD isn't holding zero.
Geissele is literally down the road from me I will try to compare their triggers side by side if possible.
The rail may be last because I cant decide if I want to get rid of the FSP yet. The type of optic may help me decide that.
RAM Engineer
05-09-11, 15:54
This thread was worthwhile because it gave me a chance to learn about the penumbra (sp) effect from Sinister. My eyesight is always the weak link in the shooting chain.
Old State,
Brother, visit Bill. He probably has at least half a dozen real guns set up with triggers in them. He may even walk out back and let you shoot the damn things.
You won't be sorry.
If I lived w/in 500miles of the GA facility I would request a tour and visit. There is a thread on here somewhere that shows the inside of the facility and such...basically looks like Disney World for Men:cool:
SWATcop556
05-09-11, 17:14
Gentlemen can't we have a civil thread without the bickering and bullshit?
Old State,
Brother, visit Bill. He probably has at least half a dozen real guns set up with triggers in them. He may even walk out back and let you shoot the damn things.
You won't be sorry.
That would be cool but the shop is in what looks like an old school building and is attached to a daycare facility. I actually drove past it 3x before I found it. Its in on the edge of a questionable neighborhood and down the street from an elementary school. So the sound of gun fire would most likely result in a 911 call and maybe a visit from the SWAT team;). It is cool to have such a manufacturer within 5 miles of my house.
If I lived w/in 500miles of the GA facility I would request a tour and visit. There is a thread on here somewhere that shows the inside of the facility and such...basically looks like Disney World for Men:cool:
I didn't realize they had another location. That would make sense as location near me and on his website doesn't look very big.
OK, I completed my first carbine course. It was titled "Carbine I" so it was a moderate course and was fairly basic; proper maintenance of an AR, safety, malfunction types and clearing drills, tactical reloads and drills, etc. Shooting distances were form 7 yards to 50 and a final "test" involved shooting at every distance practiced. They stressed accuracy over speed for Carbine I.
I ran my LE6920 with a J Point MRD and Troy di-optic BUIS and a VLTOR IMOD. Otherwise the gun is still stock
Some observations:
JPoint is a 3.5 MOA. I didn't mind the FSP and my astigmatism didn't bother me. So it looks like a 2 MOA Aimpoint is in my future.
Also I decided I am keeping the FSP but felt that I still wanted to grab the fore arm further out. Oddly, I felt like I wanted to either hold the mag well OR hold further out but not in the middle:rolleyes:
So.... I just ordered a DD FSP 12" Omega X. I went with the rail first solely because they are on sale and Midway has $20 off $200 to boot. Rail cost me $200 with the wrench and shipping. I really wanted a Troy TRX (for weight) but didn't want to deal with pinning a LP GB and getting a front sight right now.
As for the trigger. I was fine with it and didn't even notice the stock gritty-ass 8lb-er 15 yards and in. Further out and I couldn't forget about it. At 50 yards I was fighting it. Maybe if my point of reference were other weapons with heavy gritty triggers I wouldn't care so much but it seems 10s of thousands of rounds with 3-4lb super crisp triggers has had quite an effect on my muscle memory. When my brain expects the rifle to go bang it doesn't...still more tugging and grinding to do...then finally "bang"
Verdict is ... the trigger will absolutely be going. Just not sure when.
I put tape on the LED of the red dot and ran the BUIS for a while. I was fine with it but not a big fan of the Troy Di-optic.
Despite the trigger, I still shot 4rd out of 18 people on the qualifier. Had I remembered immediately to adjust for the mechanical offset when we moved in, I would have probably done better. The final "qualifier test" was not timed (done in stages with decreasing distance) so I was able to deal with the trigger a 50 yards. If it was timed it would have probably cost me as they required a few head shots.
Carbine II is in a month. I am looking at the Aimpoint PRO right now.
The rifle ran flawlessly.
See Bill. It'll make a difference.
Congrats on your performance and thanks for the feedback.
lifebreath
05-23-11, 10:49
I like nice triggers in general ...
I've got an SSA in one gun, an SSA-E in another and the KAC two-stage in my SR-15. Any of the three is far better than the stock trigger. I probably like the SSA-E and Knight's about equally well with the SSA a close second. I do like the fact that both the SSA and SSA-E have no set screws or adjustments.
The SSA and SSA-E have virtually no creep in the second stage and very crisp breaks. The KAC has a very small amount of creep in the second stage, but it's smooth and predictable with a nice sudden break. I prefer the SSA-E to the SSA for my purposes of primarily sport shooting, because of the lighter second stage. I think I'd prefer the SSA if I were LE or military for the slightly heavier second stage.
All three of these have a relatively long first stage and reset, so if you are looking for super fast trigger, you might want something like the S3G. I prefer 2-stage triggers.
Good luck with your project. At 50 yards I am SHOCKED that the trigger was what was keeping you from getting the accuracy you needed. Like, fall on the floor shocked. When this all started I at least assumed you were talking about 100-200+ yards. What kind of ammo were you using in this class?
Bear in mind, there is a distinct difference between "notice" and "affect".
But it's your gun, so good luck. I frankly think you wanted the trigger all along, but I'm glad you arrived at the place you wanted to be.
I'm not surprised at your desired hand placement. Most people find all the way out easier to "drive the gun", and closer in easier to support. Also you will see a lot of guys wind up with a magwell hold after a speed reload because it's faster than pushing the hand back out. Drop empty, jam fresh mag in, and drop bolt as your support hand grabs the magwell to stabilize the gun as needed.
lifebreath
05-23-11, 11:22
At 50 yards I am SHOCKED that the trigger was what was keeping you from getting the accuracy you needed. Like, fall on the floor shocked. When this all started I at least assumed you were talking about 100-200+ yards.
This. I'm no expert, but I don't notice the effect of the trigger much except when firing for accuracy where the shot needs to be set up or supported: long shots or from the bench. Then I notice a lot. 50 yards should go BANG BANG unless you're trying to hit a dime!
.....
As for the trigger. I was fine with it and didn't even notice the stock gritty-ass 8lb-er 15 yards and in. Further out and I couldn't forget about it. At 50 yards I was fighting it. Maybe if my point of reference were other weapons with heavy gritty triggers I wouldn't care so much but it seems 10s of thousands of rounds with 3-4lb super crisp triggers has had quite an effect on my muscle memory. When my brain expects the rifle to go bang it doesn't...still more tugging and grinding to do...then finally "bang"
Verdict is ... the trigger will absolutely be going. Just not sure when.
This is exactly what I expected (and see myself). Even 50 Yd head shots (assumed to be unsupported or from a difficult shooting position) require enough precision that the better trigger is well worth it for me.
Good luck with your project. At 50 yards I am SHOCKED that the trigger was what was keeping you from getting the accuracy you needed. Like, fall on the floor shocked. When this all started I at least assumed you were talking about 100-200+ yards. What kind of ammo were you using in this class?
Bear in mind, there is a distinct difference between "notice" and "affect".
Based on your recommendation in another post, I ran Brown Bear rather than leaving good LC brass on the ground. Its not accurate stuff but way better than I was expecting when I sighted in the rifle. It ran without a hitch. I had a case of Federal AE223 and a camber brush if I needed it. There were way more malfunctions in the class than I expected but luckily I wasn't one of them. A lot of that has to do with advise from many of you on both rifle selection and maintenance.
BTW, I also ran Ready Tac mag pouches per your recommendation. I dressed light and only used a trainers belt and cargo/tactical type pants (per C4IGrant's recommendation). I had no issues at all. Thanks.
As to the "notice" vs "affect" thing ... I noticed it way more than affected me and I was still able to shoot near the top of the class. It just caused me to be less instinctive.
What you have to understand is that EVERY gun I own has an excellent trigger and none are over 4lbs. So when I shoot the AR it feels super heavy (and gritty) and if when I go back to ,say, my 1911, that feels like a hair trigger. Consistency is also part of it.
I really wanted to be fine with the trigger and I hope you believe me when I say I went into this with an open mind. I just find it really annoying and distracting. Once you have tasted prime rib its hard to eat Spam.;)
I will be giving Geissele a call this week to see if they have a setup to test their triggers.
This is exactly what I expected (and see myself). Even 50 Yd head shots (assumed to be unsupported or from a difficult shooting position) require enough precision that the better trigger is well worth it for me.
Yes. 50 yard head shot is where I was hating it the most.
I'm used to "sight on target bang" not "sight on target.......uuughhh......grind grind scrape...keep sight on target....grind...tug.........bang";)
Old State,
Brother, visit Bill. He probably has at least half a dozen real guns set up with triggers in them. He may even walk out back and let you shoot the damn things.
You won't be sorry.
No such luck. They do not have a showroom or anything set up to try the triggers. They suggested one of the near by gun shops because they have a jig set up with a couple of their triggers. However, that gun shop actually doesn't have this.
There is a gun show in a few weeks and last time a guy there had some jigs set up with a few Giselle triggers.
I'm very interested in the new 3G as it may be the closest to my pistols.
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