My First Born, Spikes, Eotech, WOA... [Archive]

VrodRay

05-03-11, 12:46

I finished my first AR a month ago, and I'm already on my 2nd box of 1000. :D I'm loving it, and am now looking to build a bigger brother Ar-10.

Spikes Lower
Spikes Upper
Spikes Chrome BCG
Spikes T-2 Buffer
Spikes Enhanced LPK
Spikes 12" BAR Handgaurd
Phase 5 Tactical Ambi bolt catch
WOA 13.7" SS Barrel
Noveske KX3 Flash Hider
Viltor E-mod Stock
Troy BUIS & VFG
Eotech 553

Here she is...

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo180/CopperAndBlack/SpikesAR.jpg

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo180/CopperAndBlack/c252bec3.jpg

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo180/CopperAndBlack/e7427aa7.jpg

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo180/CopperAndBlack/1f8b2761.jpg

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo180/CopperAndBlack/81ab87c3.jpg

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo180/CopperAndBlack/3f5cc60f.jpg

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo180/CopperAndBlack/8360e60b.jpg

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo180/CopperAndBlack/c806e13e.jpg

Leonidas24

05-03-11, 15:00

Is that KX3 pinned?

jonconsiglio

05-03-11, 16:24

A 13.7" barrel with a KX3 to make it 16" doesn't make much sense to me. I hope thats pinned. Not trying to put anyone's build down, but I just can't stand the colored markings. I also don't understand the use of KNS pins? Is there a need, do the standard pins walk?

All that aside, it is rewarding to build one up yourself, that's a good thing.

Leonidas24

05-03-11, 16:39

There's not a lot of love for Spike's here, but aside from that I think the rifle looks good. I had a 12.5" Noveske barrel with a pig that shot nice, but in the end it was too heavy. However back to my original question: is the FH pinned or is that an SBR lower? Because I didn't see any markings on it other than the manufacturer's info.

VrodRay

05-03-11, 16:53

Mr. Goodtimes

05-03-11, 16:58

Nobody is trying to be unkind. It's just that there isn't much love for Spikes around here and for good reason. Not to mention, we see about ten new "my first build" posts a day, and I've seen about a million since I first got here.

I don't doubt that your rifle shoots fine. My old Spikes gun shot just fine as well. There is no need for KNS roll pins, an enhanced fcg, a pig, a 13.7in barrel, color fill etc ... and the BAR rail is a waste of money. Yea I'm sure it works fine but what does it do that a DD lite rail doesn't do, other than make you look super cool?

What you will find here is a largely intelligent crowd of shooters, many of whom carry guns for a living. When somebody tells me that something is "enhanced" and charges a premium for it, I usually ask my self "did this part need enhancing to begin with?"

parishioner

05-03-11, 17:21

Try to relax and maybe try to show him the light by explaining why spikes isn't thought of highly here and if he doesn't accept that, then let him enjoy his rifle.

Just_Plain_T.

05-03-11, 17:22

I'm not a fan of the color fill, but to each his own.

Otherwise it doesn't look bad at all. Not exactly what I'd do (I don't personally have a need or want for that much rail real estate), but still good.

xtremesvc

05-03-11, 17:32

Nice build!

VrodRay

05-03-11, 17:34

I only payed around $1700 to build this rifle, including the eotech 553. I shopped around, gunbroker, EE, Blem upper etc. I don't think that is bad at all for the value of the end result.

Maybe being new to AR's I don't see what is so ridiculous. I wanted a short barrel so I pined a KX3 to make 16", The Spikes Bar I picked up for $150 on EE (Very light and strong), Lower for $125 after transfer, lightly used Eotech 553 for $380.

I think I did alright...

Evil Colt 6920

05-03-11, 17:44

I'm no fan of the color fill option over at Spikes but I do enjoy my Spikes AR very much. When I built my Spikes .22lr I had great customer service and received quality products. This was well over a year ago... Ive heard Spikes hasnt been up to par more recently... not sure if its just service or if there are quality issues as well. Mine shoots flawlessly and I love it! Either way, congrats on the build, enjoy!

Pax

05-03-11, 18:59

Very nice job for your first build, you should be proud. This site is full of useful information and resources. Most critical commentary here is intended to better your equipment or techniques. And so with that said, nice rifle, but get yourself an Aimpoint and your selection of a muzzle device was.... odd. Otherwise, well done.

Col_Crocs

05-03-11, 19:01

it's not so much that it's not any of the usual known good and reliable brands but more of the Level of thought put in the build. Specifcally the focus on a whole lot of unnecessary accessories (indicated in red below) and a couple of impractical choices seen on the 13.7" barrel and KX3. I dont know the reason behind the latter 2 but from a practical stand point, a 14.5 with a permed 2.1" FH or comp would have been more practical. Or better yet, a non-pinned 16" barrel esp since this is your first AR. Your preferences will definitely change as you go and a permed muzzle device severely limits your options. Not to mention your choioces of muzzle devices to perm on a barrel that short, should you later dicover the KX3 isnt working for you.
I have to point out that youre doing good actually shooting the thing. Nice to see have over a thousand rounds through it already.

I finished my first AR a month ago, and I'm already on my 2nd box of 1000. :D I'm loving it, and am now looking to build a bigger brother Ar-10.

Spikes Lower - ok
Spikes Upper - ok
Spikes Chrome BCG - unnecessary
Spikes T-2 Buffer - unnecessary
Spikes Enhanced LPK - unnecessary
KNS Pins - unnecessary
Spikes 12" BAR Handgaurd - ok/user preference
Phase 5 Tactical Ambi bolt catch - unnecessary
WOA 13.7" SS Barrel - impractical
Noveske KX3 Flash Hider - impractical
Viltor E-mod Stock - ok
Troy BUIS & VFG - ok and user preference
Eotech 553 - ok

jonconsiglio

05-03-11, 19:05

We're not saying "look at this tool and his stupid gun", it has nothing to do with the owner. My question is always this, what does a 13.7" barrel with a KX3 do for you that a 16" or 14.5" with a pinned device can't?

It's not as bad, but it's headed in the direction of an 11.5" with a pinned 5.5" flash hider.

Aside from the markings, the gun looks fine and I'm sure it'll work well for you. But, there are things about it that appear to be done for aesthetics more than function, like KNS pins. The 13.7" barrel appears from your last post to be so you can have a short barrel, but then you add the KX3 too it. So, you've lost velocity but not saved on weight or length. You've also taken away the ability, whether it matters to you or not, to use any bullet drop compensating reticles in your optics.

Besides that, unless you have a chronograph, it'll be harder to calculate bullet drop with software or standard equations. at least with standard barrels you can look it up and be close. I guess you could do the same here but it would be more work.

My thought here, and this is in no way is meant to be condescending, rude, judgmental or anything else towards the owner of the gun other than a comment on the gun alone, but it appears to be built more on looks than function to some degree. I've been down that road before and it never works out as well as we think it's going to.

J Krammes

05-03-11, 19:29

If you are happy with your build, then that is all that matters. I do like the BAR forends. You may find some things may not work as you thought or as advertised. Read alot more and you can deal with any issues you may have. Most likely it will run fine.

Jk

ryr8828

05-03-11, 20:23

If it's what you want and it shoots that's all that matters, it's your rifle. I've got spikes lowers on 2 builds and they have the colored selector markings, came that way for $79 each. I never paid much attention to it, had to go look in the safe to see if they had them.

My safety hasn't snagged on the paint yet, seems to work ok.

bubba04

05-03-11, 20:24

Nice looking blaster.

90slow50

05-03-11, 20:43

indawire

05-03-11, 21:02

Don't take offense and throw the baby out with the bath water. There's Lots of good info here, stick around. You had a good time building it, it's what you wanted, you don't care what it costs and it shoots great. Not everybody is going to pat you on the back, there's just only so many ways to make a wheel round. I can appreciate good craftsmanship, you obviously spent a lot of time on the project and it shows. Go enjoy it.

Mauser KAR98K

05-04-11, 09:03

Nice build! Thanks for posting it on the custom build. It has given me a few ideas and ways to approach things when i do my first build.

zk556x45

05-04-11, 09:40

Like some others have said: Not what I would have built. However...

I'm glad you enjoyed the process of building your first rifle and hope that you will get some good instruction, go out an run that rifle until something breaks, fix it and then run it some more.

zk

ra2bach

05-04-11, 09:49

if this is your only AR, and you intend to use it for a "serious purpose" carbine, there has been some disagreement with the reliability of some of the components you chose. if this is just a fun gun (and I have that as well) then I believe you are welcome to do just what you want as long as it makes you happy.

the only issue I have is the flashhider - on any barrel that is not SBR, I would sooner have the shortest FH with a longer barrel combination that makes the legal length and the one you have chosen works that the other way around. plus it's heavy. but if it makes you happy then I won't judge. I've seen a lot of stuff that doesn't meet the sniff standard of this site work very well in the hands of some very squared away shooters.

just understand that if/when any of those components fails, you might be better off replacing it with the tried and trusted...

JDW67

05-04-11, 12:02

VrodRay

05-04-11, 13:30

Thanks, I appreciate the civil comments from the majority.

As for my build, this was my first AR, first build, first rifle, first time even shooting a 556 round. I have a small collection of handguns, Sigs and Kahrs, and have a CWL so I know my way around a handgun. This rifle was built for fun and really to learn hand on about AR’s and how to assemble them. Which was easier then I hoped actually. I may try my hand it building a 80% Upper and lower.

My thinking before selecting certain parts was as follows...

Spikes Upper and Lower : The consensus I got elsewhere was that Spikes was fairly new but had a decent product so I went with them , and actually had a great experience with them. The “Blem” upper was only $60 and from what I could see was only lacking T #’s, and when the LPK marred up the charging handle slightly in the box they sent another one out next day, no questions asked.

Chrome BCG: Cleans up easier. I keep all my guns really clean, so I figured it would help. It is also fairly easy on the eyes, whether it is necessary or not.

LPK: Spikes so called “Enhanced” LPK came with the Ergo grip, Nickel Boron plated Trigger/ Disconnector, Billet Trigger Guard, & KNS pins (I didn’t purchase that all separately like other’s parts lists would imply). It seemed like a better option than the run of the mill kit so I went with it.

Barrel: WOA 13.7, I wanted a short barrel and I chose the 13.7 with a pinned KX3 for a couple reasons. Obviously I needed to get to 16” in length, along with the fact that I would like my girl to shoot the rifle as well. So I figured a KX3 would do a better job of keeping more of the sound and concussive force forward of the shooter, more so then your standard flash hider. Am I wrong for thinking that? Just trying to make it as pleasurable to shoot for her as possible.

Permanently pinning is not exactly permanent for me. My father and I own an industrial turbine repair shop where we machine and weld turbine parts all day long. So removing a pinned FH would be a matter of a min or two. I did my first barrel threading the other day for a local shop. (pics)

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo180/CopperAndBlack/BullBarrelThreading1.jpg

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo180/CopperAndBlack/BullBarrelThreading10.jpg

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo180/CopperAndBlack/BullBarrelThreading12.jpg

sanman96825

05-04-11, 14:43

Impressive machine work.

Alex V

05-04-11, 17:15

Vrod,

I say enjoy your rifle. Go and shoot it.

I wanted a short barrel so I pined a KX3 to make 16", T

This is the only thing that really confuses me. I know I am a noob, but this is really confusing.

If you wanted a short barrel, then why not SBR it and have your 13.7" bbl? Adding a permed muzzle device to it and making it a 16" bbl defeats the whole purpose. That's like saying I wanted a computer so I bought a Mac and only run Windows XP on it. :confused:

If you want a short barrel, get one and SBR the rifle, if you want a 16" then get a 16" or perm an extended A2 onto a 14.5" or something...

Other than that, I have no objection to your rifle and have to compliment you on a clean assembly and excellent machine/welding work.

VrodRay

05-04-11, 17:54

Thanks Alex

Well I wanted to be right at the min legal barrel length without any additional paperwork and fee, and wanting my girl to be comfortable shooting it. So it lead me to pinning a KX3 to a 13.7” barrel to be just a touch above 16” and still have the sound and concussive wave projecting as forward as possible. That was my thinking anyway; I’m still learning the game.

ryr8828

05-04-11, 18:21

That barrel threading is impressive.

I've read threads like this many times on here and it's why I think I've never posted anything here about any rifle I own.

Up until I bought my 2 Daniel Defense rifles a few weeks ago my spikes middy was the best rifle I owned and I found that it isn't liked here.
So I didn't post about it.
Or my 2 dpms .308's
Or my Bushy 14.5 pinned
Or my Bushy .450 with spikes lower
or my Rock River Predator Pursuit.

Then I got an accepted rifle, just because I wanted one, and decided not to post about it either, tired of the hate and don't want the accolades.
I just read and hardly ever post, look at the for sale sections and see what's new or read about something I might want to buy.

Kyohte

05-04-11, 22:43

It's been said before. This forum isn't for people who want affirmation that their gun is the coolest, prettiest thing they've ever seen. People here take their guns seriously, especially if they expect to have to at some point stake their life on it. Most are giving you advice that, if you ever need your rifle for one of those things where you need a rifle, it would be wise to heed. Think of it as tough love.

There is nothing inherently wrong with your rifle. You didn't take a bunch of DPMS parts and trim it out with UTG accessories. Spikes has a dubious reputation around here (for good reason), but you could do much, much worse. It was your first build, and you made some decisions that weren't the best, but you at least tried to think them through. Most people just buy whatever the newest, coolest, tacticool brand is and throw it in the safe only to take it out to swap out parts for whatever the newest flavor of the month is. You're certainly miles above those guys.

Yes, you would have been better off with a different barrel set-up. Yes, Eotech has had problems in the past. Yes, you bought into some "snake oil". But you're new, and in time you'll learn for yourself what works, what works but isn't worth the cost, and what to laugh at.

Enjoy your rifle, shoot the hell out of it, and don't look back.

Oh, and I put KNS pins on my first build, too. I was young, stupid, and didn't know better.

Ironman8

05-04-11, 23:26

Vrod,

I don't usually comment on "first time gun build threads" just because there is (usually) a whole lot of fail and the OP's usually get a tongue lashing...so I stay out of it...but I'll say that you did a pretty good job on your first rifle. Very nice machine work as well. I personally don't have rifles that you "plink" with, but instead build rifles that I would trust my life on, that I CAN plink with if I wanted, and look good in the process :cool: (I think just about any AR looks "cool" though).

Like others have said, the only confusing part was the KX3. I understand wanting to make a rifle your girl could shoot and enjoy, but you forgot the fact that it will add weight to the end of the rifle making it a gun that MAY be too heavy for a girl...maybe not. Either way, I'm glad it shoots well for you!

Ironman8

05-04-11, 23:28

Now without trying to thread-jack....what is wrong with KNS pins? Is it that it is a $30 part that MAY be unnecessary?

As far as I know, it isn't something that will decrease the reliability or practicality of a rifle, so who cares if someone wants to blow $30 on something that MAY increase the longevity of a lower receiver that they plan on keeping for a very long time and shooting tens of thousands of rounds through.....please someone shed some light on this...am I missing something?

wahoo95

05-05-11, 00:01

Nice rifle. As mentioned already the barrel/KX3 selection isn't my favorite either, but the rest makes for a nice rifle.

Also KNS pins aren't a complete waste. I run them on mine becuase I currently only have one SBR's lower but I run 3 different calibers on it to include .22lr and 9mm whose blowback actions are hard on recievers and pins.

Enjoy our rifle and go ahead and start making plans for your next because you're gonna want another.

DragonDoc

05-09-11, 20:54

I only payed around $1700 to build this rifle, including the eotech 553. I shopped around, gunbroker, EE, Blem upper etc. I don't think that is bad at all for the value of the end result.

I don't see anything wrong with your project. You got exactly what most of us got out of our first build. The satisfaction of gathering the materials, tools, time, and knowledge to create something greater than the sum of the parts. You chose what you chose based on personal desires and we have no right to criticize your decisions. All I can say is nice build and don't let them critics get to you.

I also chose a Spike's upper and lower for my first build. I based my decision on economics and time. I'm a Floridian so I will support Spike's until they develop a bad reputation (ala Roggio's Arsenal). I could have saved up and bought parts from other brands but my time is limited and my responsibilities great at the moment. I plan on doing more builds in the future (13 months from now) and I might chose another brand other than Spike's.

rob_s

05-09-11, 21:20

It's you're gun, so if you're happy with it motor on. I don't think there's much of anything there I'd choose personally, but it's yours and you're happy with it and that should be all that matters.

Biz Kizzle

05-09-11, 22:17

i think that building/assembing an AR is reward in itself to some point, especially with the first one. looks like you did some research and got a final product you're proud of. wouldn't trust your life with it, but that's not what its for. hope you're girly likes it and enjoys shooting it. whatever gets people out and shooting is good eh.

docsherm

05-10-11, 09:16

That is a nice build, especially for a first build. I am not a fan of Spikes but who cares. If it works then good for you. The 13.7/ KX3 is a good combo. I have built one for a friend. With a carbine length gas system it work very well and that is a very reliable combo. That was also some very nice milling on that barrel.

As for the KNS pins, every one of my rifles has a set on them. If people say they are not needed then they need to go shoot more. Three of my seven lowers are over 10 years old and have seen several thousand rounds in their time. So they are needed. Why not plan for the future instead of just sitting back and doing what the masses say?

Overall that is a very good build. I would like to hear about a range report. Thanks for sharing.

rob_s

05-10-11, 09:30

As for the KNS pins, every one of my rifles has a set on them. If people say they are not needed then they need to go shoot more. Three of my seven lowers are over 10 years old and have seen several thousand rounds in their time. So they are needed. Why not plan for the future instead of just sitting back and doing what the masses say?

There is an argument to be made that they are actually worse for the carbine. It's probably not germane to this discussion, but the information is out there if you look.

Are your three lowers worn out to the point that they need the KNS to hold the pins in? Were the KNS in there from the beginning or did you change to them after losing pins? I'd be interested to hear the brand of the lowers as well.

ozy

05-11-11, 20:51

i'm new to the forum, but certainly not to weapons in general and the m4carbine (used the colt commando mk.1 and the galil 5.56mm during my 3.5 years in the israeli sf, including two long tours in lebanon 1982-83).

i'm a bit puzzled as to the anti-spikes tactical sentiments here. why is this? are their manufacturing flawed?do they produce overpriced, under- par weapons?

please elaborate.

ozy

05-11-11, 20:53

part 2-- on a budget of say $1500- $2000, would you guys recommend to put together based on todays offerings and technoloies? please be detailed and specific.

thank you in advance.

Super Mall Ninja

05-11-11, 21:02

What's wrong with KNS pins? It's not like they reduce the rifle's reliability.

rob_s

05-11-11, 21:31

part 2-- on a budget of say $1500- $2000, would you guys recommend to put together based on todays offerings and technoloies? please be detailed and specific.

thank you in advance.

Colt 6720
Aimpoint PRO
Surefire X300
MI FSB mount

Last two could be substituted with IWC Mount-n-slot light mount and Surefire G2.

Or just buy the 6720, have Clyde substitute a carryhandle for the Matech and use the $400-$900 savings on ammo, mags, and training.

az doug

05-11-11, 23:14

Nice build.

As to the 13.7 inch barrel, it would not be my choice of barrel length but it was yours and if it works for you fine. I have never understood the 14.5 inch barrel with or without perm flash hider/muzzle brake unless you need to attach a bayonet, but if that is what people want it is their choice and fine with me.

TROPICS

05-12-11, 16:57

Mehh i got a spikes lower on one of mine (not colored lol) I dont like the spider...it makes my rifle look like a toy, but i live in a small town and thats all my local gun shop had in stock for stripped lowers....i wanted to order something but i felt like i needed to purchase what he had in stock.

C4IGrant

05-12-11, 18:52

Thanks, I appreciate the civil comments from the majority.

I know some of the people that made "negative" comments to you and they would say it to your face just as they did here. You are right though, the errornet allows some people to get away with things that they would never attempt in person.

I have a small collection of handguns, Sigs and Kahrs, and have a CWL so I know my way around a handgun.

Having your CWL doesn't mean that you know a SINGLE thing about handguns.

I don't know if you realized it or not, but M4C is not like the majority of the other gun forums out there. The majority of the members here prefer quality AR's, train with said AR and spend money on professional shooting schools to better themselves. Most here either carry said weapon for their job or plan on using one to defend their lives. Because of this, they tend to look negatively at colored spiders, chrome parts or just anything that is not of real value.

My first gun was a RRA Varmint AR. My second AR was a BM M17. Then I found Noveske Rifleworks. So you are doing better than me, but then again I did not have the options you have available today.

You could have bought a BCM for under $1k and spent the rest of they money on ammo and training and would have been better off (in the long run). So when folks are being hard on you, they are looking at the many things that are a waste of money or money better spent on more important things (like how to use said weapon properly). Forgive them for their bluntness, but try and appreciate that they have most likely been where you are and have learned some valuable lessons.

Enjoy your new build and try to find a carbine class to run it in.

C4

txpatriot

05-16-11, 18:07

Congrats on your new build.
Have fun with it and keep on building what you like.
i think it looks great.
If you like it and it works thats all that matters.

tgace

05-16-11, 19:43

Is there any reason to believe that this thing wont go "BANG" 99.999% of the time and put the bullet where it's aimed?

Dump1567

05-17-11, 11:34

To the OP. Nice build. Looks like you do some good machining work.

In shooting with the Noveske KX3 Flash Hider, did you get the desired results you were after?

I've wondered how loud the KX3 would sound to the shooter if used indoors (home defense role) without ear pro vs. compared to a 14.5 w/FH in the same environment?

TheCracker

05-18-11, 21:45

Wow! I'm not new to forums or guns but am a AR noob and new to this forum. I'm getting ready to start acquiring parts for a AR build but want to study quite a bit before buying anything.

I'm going to stick around and try to get educated.

ChetPunisher

05-22-11, 07:30

Hey VrodRay,
Have you had a chance to get it out on the range? How is the accuracy? Great build. Have you run into or noticed any problems?

What ammo are you gonna be running?

Nytcrawler93

05-22-11, 10:28

Hey OP, I built my first AR as a 20 inch Rock River. I learned I didn't like 20 inch Rock Rivers. My second build is a Spikes. Regardless, you posted correctly in the correct section and most importantly, you built what you wanted. I wouldn't mind having the rifle you built with a SAR, CTR, and 16 inch mid.

polymorpheous

05-22-11, 19:51

OP: Your boomstick isn't really my style, but it makes you happy...

I am, however, jealous of your shop and machining skills.

usmcvet

05-22-11, 19:59

OP

Is that a mill you have your gun in? That thing has some serious weight it!

I don't care for some of what you chose but it is YOUR build. There is a ton of good info here. Give it some time and you'll see it for yourself.

Oh and don't wait get/build an SBR. It will be nice and light for your daughter!

devinsdad

05-22-11, 20:22

OK, I'll shoot one more time. Why does Spikes have such low points here? Is it just because it's not BCM, Noveske, Larue or KAC? I realize theres a lot of hardcore brand fans here, this thread is proof of that, just curious to the drama with Spikes?

usmcvet

05-22-11, 20:28

I'd try running a search here or on Google.

ChetPunisher

05-22-11, 20:30

Google is great...

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2117-Spike-s-Tactical-16-quot-M4-LE-upper-thread

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2728-New-here-Spike-s-Tactical-question&highlight=spikes

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=282&t=194245

And one more from the original review... Lots of insight from Stickman:

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2115

usmcvet

05-22-11, 20:59

Google is great...

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum...E-upper-thread

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum...ghlight=spikes

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=282&t=194245

I tried the links the only one I got to work was to TOS.

ChetPunisher

05-22-11, 21:08

Try again. I fixed them. Don't know why they didn't work. They previewed fine. If you want them PM me.

usmcvet

05-22-11, 21:30

Thanks for fixing the links.

I have respect for Stick and what he has to say holds water with me.

Army Chief

05-23-11, 06:32

Gentlemen,

After languishing in lockdown for most of the day, this thread has now been cleaned up and readied for a return to prime time.

Due to the nature of the previous thread progression, it required a considerable amount of editing, deleting and truncating to reach this point. Many posts were excised, not because they failed to conform to site standards, but simply because they did not directly deal with the build in question, and the farther afield we allowed the conversation to go, the more problematic it became.

Please do not infer that some specific judgment was being made against you personally if your remarks are missing or modified, as edits were made for both readability and content, and this included posts from new members, senior members and even site staffers -- to include a previous post of my own.

Kindly advance the discussion in as constructive a manner as possible. Agreement is by no means essential, but understanding and civility are. Should you wish to address something that you view as a potential shortcoming, remember that reinforcement and education are always in good taste, but sharpshooting and ridicule have no place here, regardless of how right or wrong the point in question might be.

Thread reopened.

AC