View Full Version : Information Needed Regarding Night Vision
DeltaSierra
05-03-11, 18:23
I have no experience whatsoever with NODS, so I am looking for advice from those that have in-the-field experience.
I do not like to buy cheap gear. If I buy something, I buy high quality, but in my efforts to research NV, I usually find that company ______ is advertising their product as Military Grade, when it is not actually up to spec.
I want a good quality optic, that I can mount on my rifle (which happens to be a Daniel Defense), and if possible, I would also like to be able to mount that same optic on a helmet. If I cannot get one optic that will do both, that is alright, but I would prefer having the two options for mounting the NOD.
Next up is deciding which type of optic to put in front of the NV...
I hate batteries, so if there is an option that does not use batteries, all the better (Mepro-Light 21 is advertised as being NV compatible, but I would like to hear from someone that has actually used one in this role.)
Also, if you have any advice as to a good place to buy NV from, that would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance for the help.
DeltaSierra
PVS-14 is most common NV device that moves from gun to helmet. You will not be able to get state-of-the-art Tubr though, they are only available under military contract. You can still get a really good tube though.
Of course it is going to need batteries. NV compatible means it has a very low light setting and will not burn out the NV tube.
I use a CompM4 in front of mine. i tried an EOTech, but did not like it.
Pick up a PVS-14. Either someone that has contract overrun AN/PVS-14's or the ITT Night Enforcer models. They're essentially the same thing but the NE models haven't been through the mil-spec tests. Behind an Aimpoint they're awesome. Head mounted with a PEQ they're even more awesomer. If you're going with a precision rig, a PVS-22 is the tits, although not as utilitarian as a PVS-14. As far as weapon mounting a -14, look for a tube with a halo value higher than 1.0 and it will be better equipped to deal with recoil.
I have no experience whatsoever with NODS, so I am looking for advice from those that have in-the-field experience.
I do not like to buy cheap gear. If I buy something, I buy high quality, but in my efforts to research NV, I usually find that company ______ is advertising their product as Military Grade, when it is not actually up to spec.
I want a good quality optic, that I can mount on my rifle (which happens to be a Daniel Defense), and if possible, I would also like to be able to mount that same optic on a helmet. If I cannot get one optic that will do both, that is alright, but I would prefer having the two options for mounting the NOD.
Next up is deciding which type of optic to put in front of the NV...
I hate batteries, so if there is an option that does not use batteries, all the better (Mepro-Light 21 is advertised as being NV compatible, but I would like to hear from someone that has actually used one in this role.)
Also, if you have any advice as to a good place to buy NV from, that would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance for the help.
DeltaSierra
Give us a call if we can be of assistance. We've outfitted many around here. We also carry a Mil Spec AN/PVS-14 as well as the Night Enforcer 14's, both from ITT.
The PVS-14 as you're probably aware is the most versatile system out there for head, weapon and hand holding. We recommend and so does ITT no more that a 5.56 for weapon mounting a PVS.
Using a IR laser on your weapon while the 14 mounted on ones melon is the most effective way to shoot with the 14 in most cases. Shooting with your head up while letting your laser do all the talking is a very effective way to get effective and very accurate fire on target. The new Laser Devices Class 1 IR line of Lasers are also now available for full civilian sales which has really been a big hit vs. all the years of IR laser restrictions. Granted these are short range 125 yards systems vs. their restricted counterparts of 400+. http://www.tnvc.com/shop/category/laser-systems/
We also make a nifty PVS-14 weapons mount called the TM-14 that uses the Aimpoint twist base that allows well under 10 second transition time from head to weapon/weapon to head. http://www.tnvc.com/shop/tnvc-tm14-pvs-14-weapon-mount/
Be happy to talk you through what your specific requirements may be.
Vic
Not trying to thread jack, but I have been thinking about PMing one of the TNVC guys about this as well.
My number one priority is to have a NOD with the ability to switch from gun to head mount...I like the looks of that TM-14
2) Size/weight...something reasonable, but the smaller the better
3) Ability to see about 100 yds...I don't really NEED the ability to see further, although it would def be a plus.
4) Durability
Everything else falls behind these top 4.
My question is, is there a cheaper alternative to the PVS-14 that will fill the top 4 requirements? Maybe a Gen 2 optic? Or would it be more beneficial to me to just save up X amount more and go with the PVS-14?
Also, I believe I heard something about TNVC offering a cheaper PVS-14 with a 2nd grade tube (don't know if that's the right term) during certain times of the year. Is this a viable alternative?
I don't mind spending the money if the PVS-14 is really the only one that will fit the bill, but I would just like to know if there's another, cheaper option that will do the job just fine.
Thanks!
I'd take Vic up on that offer. You might pay a tiny bit more, but TNVC will point you to the correct thing to buy, and get you top end stuff, instead of going through the usual process of very expensive learning (buying the wrong thing). Give them a call, learn a LOT, and see what their recommendation is.
I should add, I've been very happy with TNVC and have been able to take the easy road with all of this because of their fantastic CS. In fact, I just ordered a new INVG and dovetail mount from Vic tonight. You may save a buck here and there, but knowing that I can call them with any questions or any concerns (often outside of normal business hours) is definitely worthwhile. I can work my way around an AR, but when it comes to night vision I might as well be in kindergarten. They've always been straight shooters with me and I appreciate the candid nature of our discussions. It's worth it to me to go with the best service. I'm no expert by any means, but the education I've gotten has definitely been worth it.
Failure2Stop
05-04-11, 00:51
One quick note:
There are very few NV devices that are fit to be placed in front of an optic, and they are very expensive.
14s and the like should be placed behind the optic to eliminate/ minimize zero-shift.
IR lasers are great, if the threat doesn't have NV capability, though as long as you practice laser discipline it isn't any more damning than a visible laser.
++++ on TNVC. If you are serious about buying Vic will set up on the right path for your wants and budget.
You can also check out TNVC articals page for info
http://www.tnvc.com/reviews/
This artical was very helpful for me
http://www.tnvc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/PVS14_Buyer_Guide.pdf
DeltaSierra
05-04-11, 08:26
Thanks for the information.
I think I'll go with TNVC...
The provided links have been very helpful.
DeltaSierra
One quick note:
There are very few NV devices that are fit to be placed in front of an optic, and they are very expensive.
14s and the like should be placed behind the optic to eliminate/ minimize zero-shift.
IR lasers are great, if the threat doesn't have NV capability, though as long as you practice laser discipline it isn't any more damning than a visible laser.
Thanks Brother, I forgot to mention this about PVS-14's or any monocular are not designed to go out in front of your day optics. Plenty of POA/POI issues with doing this setup. These kinds of setups are reserved for the true clip-on style of optics such at the PVS-22 line ups.
Thanks for the kind words all.
Vic
Give us a call if we can be of assistance. We've outfitted many around here. We also carry a Mil Spec AN/PVS-14 as well as the Night Enforcer 14's, both from ITT.
The PVS-14 as you're probably aware is the most versatile system out there for head, weapon and hand holding. We recommend and so does ITT no more that a 5.56 for weapon mounting a PVS.
Using a IR laser on your weapon while the 14 mounted on ones melon is the most effective way to shoot with the 14 in most cases. Shooting with your head up while letting your laser do all the talking is a very effective way to get effective and very accurate fire on target. The new Laser Devices Class 1 IR line of Lasers are also now available for full civilian sales which has really been a big hit vs. all the years of IR laser restrictions. Granted these are short range 125 yards systems vs. their restricted counterparts of 400+. http://www.tnvc.com/shop/category/laser-systems/
We also make a nifty PVS-14 weapons mount called the TM-14 that uses the Aimpoint twist base that allows well under 10 second transition time from head to weapon/weapon to head. http://www.tnvc.com/shop/tnvc-tm14-pvs-14-weapon-mount/
Be happy to talk you through what your specific requirements may be.
Vic
Several of the gent's I respect the most on AR kit and NOD's all recommended TNVC :)
After an upcoming SDN-6 suppressor I look forward to coming over to the dark side and letting you guys set me up with a pvs 14.
Magic_Salad0892
05-06-11, 03:11
Forward mounted NVG or Thermal devices (PVS-22, or Knight Vision hardware) are better off for a static weapon such as a precision gun, or something.
It wouldn't make sense on a DD gun.
I've decided to forego the NVGs, and stick with my OTAL-A, and I'm going to save up for a FLIR Handheld Thermal Camera. (I've seen them for a similar price to NVGs.)
Buy once, cry once. Def go PVS 14 and def buy from TNVC. I have a Gen2 D300MS and it's adequete but I wish I would have did it right the first time :o Minimum I would go is the GT 14 gen 2+
Still, I was able to throw it behind my TA33 and get hits on 8" steel at 100 and 200 yards, no moon, no illumination, just ambient light which is about nill at my range, using Wolf, LMT 16", Gripod from the bench.
DeltaSierra
05-06-11, 19:36
Still, I was able to throw it behind my TA33 and get hits on 8" steel at 100 and 200 yards, no moon, no illumination, just ambient light which is about nill at my range, using Wolf, LMT 16", Gripod from the bench.
How is the TA33 in front of the NV unit?
Is the tritium-lit reticle a bit on the bright side?
Very bright as it's a new optic. I just tried it for shits and giggles. And as you can imagine with Wolf at 200 yards my hit ratio was probably 50-60% where as at 100 was closer to 99%. I suppose you could pick an older Acog that has a dim reticle due to old tritium cheap on ebay............ A TA33 wouldn't my pick for this application, the optic is very narrow and gave kind of a fisheye effect. TA 31 or 11 would be better but that's still far from ideal.
DeltaSierra
05-06-11, 20:02
Very bright as it's a new optic. I just tried it for shits and giggles. And as you can imagine with Wolf at 200 yards my hit ratio was probably 50-60% where as at 100 was closer to 99%.
Thanks for the info...
DON'T put an ACOG in front of a PVS-14. It'll burn your tube. If you can see the dot, it's too bright. Get an NV compatible Aimpoint or EoTech and run that. If you notice, the NV settings are MAYBE barely visible on the highest NV setting.
DeltaSierra
05-07-11, 00:14
DON'T put an ACOG in front of a PVS-14. It'll burn your tube. If you can see the dot, it's too bright. Get an NV compatible Aimpoint or EoTech and run that. If you notice, the NV settings are MAYBE barely visible on the highest NV setting.
Thanks for the clarification.
Logicalpath
07-29-11, 23:58
Any recommendations for someone on a budget? I don't think I can afford 3,000.00 for a pair of NVGs. Someone recommended Yukon but I'm unsure of the quality. Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks.
http://www.amazon.com/Yukon-Tracker-Goggle-1X24-Binocular/dp/B000H1I7M0/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1312001920&sr=8-6
Whootsinator
07-30-11, 01:11
Any recommendations for someone on a budget? I don't think I can afford 3,000.00 for a pair of NVGs. Someone recommended Yukon but I'm unsure of the quality. Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks.
http://www.amazon.com/Yukon-Tracker-Goggle-1X24-Binocular/dp/B000H1I7M0/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1312001920&sr=8-6
Let's get real here... Do you have $2,000 - $3,000 for night vision OR are you concerned about quality? There isn't much room for both.
Logicalpath
07-30-11, 01:17
Let's get real here... Do you have $2,000 - $3,000 for night vision OR are you concerned about quality? There isn't much room for both.
I'm fairly certain I'm being "real here", my question is a legitimate one. Unless of course your response is that NV models that go for less than 2,000.00 are absent any traits that could be described as "quality".
My question still stands, I can't imagine that everyone on these forums that has hands-on experience with NVG has only used the PVS models. I'm not looking for mil-spec on this piece of equipment because the prices on those models are too high for me. Again, the Yukon line was suggested to me and I'm curious if anyone has any feedback on that particular manufacturer or something comparable.
Logical, see post #9 by Motoduck in this thread and check out those links.
I had the same thought process as you that they were too expensive, and would like to have a cheaper brand, but as you will see from the links, there really is no substitute. Even more so if you wish to be able to go from weapon mount to head mount. My suggestion is to save your pennies and get something that is better quality.
I'm not looking for mil-spec on this piece of equipment because the prices on those models are too high for me. Again, the Yukon line was suggested to me and I'm curious if anyone has any feedback on that particular manufacturer or something comparable.
There is a good thread by Vic of TNVC on that other site where he describes the Gen 2 D300 as the minimum he would recommend for a NV set up. I bought the D300 and it was a great set up. It is less expensive than the PVS-14. It was about $1500 back then (3 years maybe) and it looks like it's almost $1900 now. Vic is very helpful and knowledgable and makes a good case that spending less than the D300 costs will not get you a NV rig that meets his minimum standard. Keep in mind you will need a mount for the weapon and / or helmet, a helmet, and an illuminator.
Here is the set-up I got from Victor.
EDIT: Here is a link that compares The PVS-14, the D-300 Gen 2, and I think a Gen 1 unit like you are considering. take note that the D-300 has an internal illiminator that provides a usable image. The external SF illuminator provides a very good image. I had the SF which I liked for indoors and The "Torch" that Vic sells for outdoors. I sold the D-300 set-up a while ago, but I can absolutely recommend it.
Link:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/329958_.html
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/DWood13/DSC_1370.jpg
Logicalpath
07-30-11, 08:59
Logical, see post #9 by Motoduck in this thread and check out those links.
I had the same thought process as you that they were too expensive, and would like to have a cheaper brand, but as you will see from the links, there really is no substitute. Even more so if you wish to be able to go from weapon mount to head mount. My suggestion is to save your pennies and get something that is better quality.
I just finished reading it, thanks for pointing it out(I skipped over that link when reading the thread originally). He definitely makes the case for purchasing "the good stuff", my issue from strictly consumer perspective is whether or not the money involved does not outweigh it's practical use for me.
In the meantime I'm going to save my pennies as you suggested and I'll continue doing research in the meantime. Maybe I can buy one of those holiday units he discusses in the article.
Logicalpath
07-30-11, 08:59
There is a good thread by Vic of TNVC on that other site where he describes the Gen 2 D300 as the minimum he would recommend for a NV set up. I bought the D300 and it was a great set up. It is less expensive than the PVS-14. It was about $1500 back then (3 years maybe) and it looks like it's almost $1900 now. Vic is very helpful and knowledgable and makes a good case that spending less than the D300 costs will not get you a NV rig that meets his minimum standard. Keep in mind you will need a mount for the weapon and / or helmet, a helmet, and an illuminator.
Here is the set-up I got from Victor.
EDIT: Here is a link that compares The PVS-14, the D-300 Gen 2, and I think a Gen 1 unit like you are considering. take note that the D-300 has an internal illiminator that provides a usable image. The external SF illuminator provides a very good image. I had the SF which I liked for indoors and The "Torch" that Vic sells for outdoors. I sold the D-300 set-up a while ago, but I can absolutely recommend it.
Link:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/329958_.html
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/DWood13/DSC_1370.jpg
Was that unit able to get mounted on to a helmet for monocular use?
Was that unit able to get mounted on to a helmet for monocular use?
Yes, Vic also sells the mounts. I mounted it on a PT helmet:
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/DWood13/IMG_0779.jpg
Here is the post that Victor made about the D300. It has some good info.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_209/151987_New_NIGHT_VISION_Gen_2__Monocular__the_D_300__UPDATED__with_new_review_and_PICS_.html
Logicalpath
07-31-11, 07:33
Here is the post that Victor made about the D300. It has some good info.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_209/151987_New_NIGHT_VISION_Gen_2__Monocular__the_D_300__UPDATED__with_new_review_and_PICS_.html
Thanks, some good information there. That's a price point I can deal with, I'm going to give them a call next week and see what I can begin working out. Did you sell yours?
Did you sell yours?
Yes, I needed to redistribute the money in my firearm fund and the NV was sold to fund other purchases. The buyer (forgot who, either here or snipers hide) was very happy with it too.
That post is 5 years old and the price now is $1899. TNVC ran a group buy way back that gave a discount on the D300 and illuminator. Talk to Victor. He is great to work with.
Yes, I needed to redistribute the money in my firearm fund and the NV was sold to fund other purchases. The buyer (forgot who, either here or snipers hide) was very happy with it too.
That post is 5 years old and the price now is $1899. TNVC ran a group buy way back that gave a discount on the D300 and illuminator. Talk to Victor. He is great to work with.
I bought it.
You may want to look at the mini-14.
The D-300 was nice, but the mini-14 was better.
I bought it.
Still have it Caesar? How is it worked for you?
Logicalpath
07-31-11, 11:30
You may want to look at the mini-14.
The D-300 was nice, but the mini-14 was better.
Are you referring to this one = http://www.tnvc.com/shop/mum-mini-14-gen3-pinnacle-night-vision-monocular/ ?
If so there is a significant price difference between the two, do you know of a place where I can purchase them for close to the same price point?
...... do you know of a place where I can purchase them for close to the same price point?
The MUM is a step up and costs more.
Something that might be similar in price to the D-300 would be sourcing an MX10160 tube and a housing like the AB Nightvision or Micro from some place like nv depot. Depending on where you get it, you could score a pretty sweet Gen3 ANVIS tube for not a whole lot of money, and pick up the housing kit for sub-$700. You can put it together at home yourself in about 15 minutes. You would get better performance than the D-300 THEORETICALLY depending on tube spec. The hardest part of the whole deal would be finding the right tube for the right price.
That all being said, again, you won't find a better retailer with better customer service than Vic at TNVC. If you don't want to spend the time or effort to source your own tube and build up an NV optic yourself, absolutely give TNVC your business.
Logicalpath
07-31-11, 19:40
Something that might be similar in price to the D-300 would be sourcing an MX10160 tube and a housing like the AB Nightvision or Micro from some place like nv depot. Depending on where you get it, you could score a pretty sweet Gen3 ANVIS tube for not a whole lot of money, and pick up the housing kit for sub-$700. You can put it together at home yourself in about 15 minutes. You would get better performance than the D-300 THEORETICALLY depending on tube spec. The hardest part of the whole deal would be finding the right tube for the right price.
That all being said, again, you won't find a better retailer with better customer service than Vic at TNVC. If you don't want to spend the time or effort to source your own tube and build up an NV optic yourself, absolutely give TNVC your business.
But isn't that what Vic was speaking against in the article he wrote?
How difficult is it to sourcing a good tube & what does that normally run? Finally assuming I was to go this route would I need any technical background to put the two together?
Still have it Caesar? How is it worked for you?
I still have it and plan to keep it until I can save for Gen3 but I'm def happy for the price. I haven't got to do much shooting with it b/c my range is only open until 9:00pm so that limits me from pretty much fall through spring. I def need a better headmount than the standard norotos setup.
I have used it to walk into my blind last fall and spot a nice buck that I otherwise wouldn't have been able to see until daylight. This was pitch black in the woods and about 125 yards. I spooked it trying to set up a shot for first light.
I'd really like to see a twist mount for it, hint, hint, wink, wink.
I have no experience whatsoever with NODS, so I am looking for advice from those that have in-the-field experience.
I do not like to buy cheap gear. If I buy something, I buy high quality, but in my efforts to research NV, I usually find that company ______ is advertising their product as Military Grade, when it is not actually up to spec.
I want a good quality optic, that I can mount on my rifle (which happens to be a Daniel Defense), and if possible, I would also like to be able to mount that same optic on a helmet. If I cannot get one optic that will do both, that is alright, but I would prefer having the two options for mounting the NOD.
Next up is deciding which type of optic to put in front of the NV...
I hate batteries, so if there is an option that does not use batteries, all the better (Mepro-Light 21 is advertised as being NV compatible, but I would like to hear from someone that has actually used one in this role.)
Also, if you have any advice as to a good place to buy NV from, that would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance for the help.
DeltaSierraPVS 14's if you have the coin
But isn't that what Vic was speaking against in the article he wrote?
How difficult is it to sourcing a good tube & what does that normally run? Finally assuming I was to go this route would I need any technical background to put the two together?
If you're talking about the "NV Buyers Guide" that Chip (works for Vic) wrote, not necessarily. There are a lot of dishonest people taking advantage of customers by telling them they're getting some super whiz-bang PVS-14 when they're not. There's an inherent risk purchasing from a non-vetted seller. They will provide crappy tubes, but if a consumer doesn't know any better, they're none the wiser. They'll sell repots as new, sub catalog spec tubes as perfect, etc. and you won't know the difference until you look through it and you have a huge blemish right in the center, or you have emission points all over, or any number of other problems.
However, sourcing a tube does not have to be as scary. Many honest resellers will give you a data sheet if it's available. These are the guys that will give you a tube based on specs you provide, or based on info you give them about your use. Some guys get really hung up on specs looking for a super tube. Most people just want something that looks good and is a solid performer. Someone wanting it for astronomy will have totally different needs than someone popping ground hogs. Guys like Vic, and others will shoot straight with you and give you an honest assessment of a tubes capability, and can help you decide on a tube that best fits your needs.
As far as putting a tube and housing together, if you have enough mechanical aptitude to change a tire, you can put an AB housing or a Micro housing together. Purging is another story but I don't have to deal with that here in 0% humidity AZ. It really is incredibly simple, and unless you're completely ham fisted it's pretty hard to screw up.
If you go this way, do yourself a favor and give Victor a call. He'll work to get you what you need, and will definitely help you make up your mind.
Logicalpath
08-01-11, 07:40
If you go this way, do yourself a favor and give Victor a call. He'll work to get you what you need, and will definitely help you make up your mind.
On that today, thanks.
I see I am a little late to this party. I recently put together my first NV set up as well. I went with a PVS-14 behind an EOTech. I chose the EOTech for the largest FOV possible when the PVS-14 is weapon mounted. I am also running the TM-14 mount from TNVC.
So far, I've been very happy.
Here is a link to a thread I posted about this set up:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=85595
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/3369/dsc04560ep.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/828/dsc04560ep.jpg/)
Logicalpath
08-04-11, 00:32
I see I am a little late to this party. I recently put together my first NV set up as well. I went with a PVS-14 behind an EOTech. I chose the EOTech for the largest FOV possible when the PVS-14 is weapon mounted. I am also running the TM-14 mount from TNVC.
So far, I've been very happy.
Here is a link to a thread I posted about this set up:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=85595
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/3369/dsc04560ep.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/828/dsc04560ep.jpg/)
I'm curious if you wouldn't mind posting a detailed explanation on how you put together the NV? I would like to learn from the process/steps you took so I can gauge whether or not it is a viable route for me.
I'm curious if you wouldn't mind posting a detailed explanation on how you put together the NV? I would like to learn from the process/steps you took so I can gauge whether or not it is a viable route for me.
From his link it looks like he just bought the PVS-14 and a weapon mount.
Not sure if you are asking about a DIY project but here is a link on assembling a PVS-14. I don't believe it's as simple as this video makes it seem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTwvNjY8210
TNVC parts kit minus tube:
http://www.tnvc.com/shop/category/night-vision-parts/
Some good DIY info starting with the second post:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/194640_.html&page=20
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