View Full Version : .40S&W/.45 acp dual use recommendations
I am out at our remote cabin in Alaska today, and saw the first Grizzly bear of the season. That means it is .44 and 870/Guide Gun time out in the bush. My question is around town, where bears and moose are less likely to be a problem, and you have a .40 or .45 that needs to fill a dual purpose niche for possible two and four legged threats.
In .40, where you would like the best compromise between performance on a softer target, but also the ability to penetrate an animal's skull, would the best choice be the 180 HST, 180 bonded Ranger, the DPX load or something else? Same question for .45, between the 230 HST, 230 or 230+P Ranger T or DPX 185 +P?
.40 180 gr or .45 230 gr +P--a bonded load like Fed Tactical, Win Ranger Bonded, or Speer Gold Dot wouldn't hurt...
Alaskapopo
05-05-11, 05:18
I am out at our remote cabin in Alaska today, and saw the first Grizzly bear of the season. That means it is .44 and 870/Guide Gun time out in the bush. My question is around town, where bears and moose are less likely to be a problem, and you have a .40 or .45 that needs to fill a dual purpose niche for possible two and four legged threats.
In .40, where you would like the best compromise between performance on a softer target, but also the ability to penetrate an animal's skull, would the best choice be the 180 HST, 180 bonded Ranger, the DPX load or something else? Same question for .45, between the 230 HST, 230 or 230+P Ranger T or DPX 185 +P?
A friend of mine in the Troopers shot some bear skulls with the 40sw and 357 sig. Only the FMJ rounds in the .40sw would penetrate the skulls he used for the tests. The 357 sig did well too. The 180 grain JHP's in the 40sw he tested did not penetrate the skulls.
Pat
.40 180 gr or .45 230 gr +P--a bonded load like Fed Tactical, Win Ranger Bonded, or Speer Gold Dot wouldn't hurt...
I'm rather surprised that the DPX didn't make the cut.
A friend of mine in the Troopers shot some bear skulls with the 40sw and 357 sig. Only the FMJ rounds in the .40sw would penetrate the skulls he used for the tests. The 357 sig did well too. The 180 grain JHP's in the 40sw he tested did not penetrate the skulls.
Pat
Did he try the 165gr Gold Dot at 1150fps? Seems like higher velocity loads tend to do better at "biting" into hard and rounded surfaces like a skull.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214
If you were stuck with a .45 ACP for large animal defense in Alaska, the Buffalo Bore 255 grain flat nose hard cast at 960 fps would be my choice. I wouldn't use any expanding bullet.
12"-13" of penetration is great for people, but on a big bear, depending on where you hit him, he might not even notice it. If I recall correctly, that 255 HCFN does 20"+ in gel. Might give you a better chance if a body shot is all you get.
As is often said, a pistol is a lousy choice for big bear defense. But I understand wanting to have it, and I always carry one in bear country as well, usually a .44 mag or .45 Colt, either with hard cast lead bullets. I've never had to use it, and I hope like hell I never do, as I realize the odds aren't in my favor.
You need mass for penetration in larger animals...
Sure, a .44 magnum with hard cast bullets like the Garrett Defender load designed for the 329 is what I carry in the field, and while I spent the day with my 329 and short 870 loaded with Brenneke slugs, my question is for town where animals are less likely but possible as a threat.
Doc, can you please elaborate on the comment about mass? An earlier post mentioned the .357 Sig doing well in tests on bear skulls, which would seem to argue for velocity. If that were the case, this may be one of the few places the .357 Sig makes sense? If so, thoughts on the 125 grain DPX load or Ranger 125 grain bonded load?
eightmillimeter
05-05-11, 23:23
A friend of mine in the Troopers shot some bear skulls with the 40sw and 357 sig. Only the FMJ rounds in the .40sw would penetrate the skulls he used for the tests. The 357 sig did well too. The 180 grain JHP's in the 40sw he tested did not penetrate the skulls.
Pat
The nice thing about 40 FMJ and critters is the flat point, flat point bullets tend to penetrate in a straight line, which helps.
Alaskapopo
05-06-11, 03:05
Sure, a .44 magnum with hard cast bullets like the Garrett Defender load designed for the 329 is what I carry in the field, and while I spent the day with my 329 and short 870 loaded with Brenneke slugs, my question is for town where animals are less likely but possible as a threat.
Doc, can you please elaborate on the comment about mass? An earlier post mentioned the .357 Sig doing well in tests on bear skulls, which would seem to argue for velocity. If that were the case, this may be one of the few places the .357 Sig makes sense? If so, thoughts on the 125 grain DPX load or Ranger 125 grain bonded load?
He was a big .357 sig fan. I sold him my last pistol in that caliber. His take on things was that all pistols were weak and ineffective against bears and that your only chance was to poke a hole in the CNS system and you needed penetration to do that. He felt that having a light weight auto that held lots of bullets gave him a better chance than a high recoiling revolver. We disagreed but his idea did have merit.
Pat
He was a big .357 sig fan. I sold him my last pistol in that caliber. His take on things was that all pistols were weak and ineffective against bears and that your only chance was to poke a hole in the CNS system and you needed penetration to do that. He felt that having a light weight auto that held lots of bullets gave him a better chance than a high recoiling revolver. We disagreed but his idea did have merit.
Pat
Perhaps, but I still think if he was going to follow that path, a .45 Auto with FMJ or hard cast flat points would be the better choice.
He was a big .357 sig fan. I sold him my last pistol in that caliber. His take on things was that all pistols were weak and ineffective against bears and that your only chance was to poke a hole in the CNS system and you needed penetration to do that. He felt that having a light weight auto that held lots of bullets gave him a better chance than a high recoiling revolver. We disagreed but his idea did have merit.
Pat
I think your friend got the first part correct, in that handguns are generally a poor choice against bears, but that poking a hole in the upper CNS is the way to go. I disagree with the second part, because a hard cast bullet out of a .44 or equivalent, has to be better for poking that hole in the CNS. Since you will have only time to fire a shot or two, high cap isn't a top priority in a woods gun.
My use is different, since I know what works in the field, but would like something around town for dual use -- and the $64 question is whether .357 Sig, .40 or .45 will poke that hole in the upper CNS of a bear or moose? It seems we have two schools of thought, mass versus velocity?
titsonritz
05-06-11, 11:25
Glock 20 + Buffalo Bore (or equal) FMJ or Hardcast = Best auto pistol/ammo combo for big critters that put you the menu.
Glock 20 plus 200 grain Buffalo Bore and 200 grain Corbon penetrator load equals malfunctions in my two Glock 20 SF's and one standard Glock 20. I would be curious how much of that you have run thru a G20, and whether it has been reliable. We tried factory and the Wolff recoil springs/guide rod, and that didn't seem to make a difference.
Just got some 200 grain penetrator ammo from Double Tap, and that is running in two G29 SF's we have, but haven't had a chance to try it in the G20's yet.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.