View Full Version : Too bad to compete
Is there such a thing as too bad to compete?
I've been scaling up my competitive shooting and while I can handle my gun safely (been complimented on my trigger discipline), I can't shoot consistently for crap. There was one point the other night where I whiffed 4 times on a steel target at 10 yds. There are flashes where I can shoot a stage clean, but then I'll pull an 0 for 5 on paper plates at 25 yards with my AR. That's embarassing just to type.
Is it even with it to go? I get the sense that I'm ' that guy' who everyone would just rather not have around.
Even the instructor they recommended blew me off for a lesson, and the guy I ended up with had some gems like fingering the trigger while drawing.
My gear is flawless, other than me not slapping a mag in hard enough to load.
My feeling is though until I gain more competence I just stay at the practice range.
If your fundamentals are there, and you're just having problems because of jitters, or difficulty with walking and chewing gum at the same time, then I say you'll never get better if you don't keep going.
However, and take this from someone whose been there, if your fundamentals are shaky there is no better way to solidify bad habits than to try to execute them rapidly under the stress of watching eyes and a timer.
Is there such a thing as too bad to compete?
I've been scaling up my competitive shooting and while I can handle my gun safely (been complimented on my trigger discipline), I can't shoot consistently for crap. There was one point the other night where I whiffed 4 times on a steel target at 10 yds. There are flashes where I can shoot a stage clean, but then I'll pull an 0 for 5 on paper plates at 25 yards with my AR. That's embarassing just to type.
Is it even with it to go? I get the sense that I'm ' that guy' who everyone would just rather not have around.
Even the instructor they recommended blew me off for a lesson, and the guy I ended up with had some gems like fingering the trigger while drawing.
My gear is flawless, other than me not slapping a mag in hard enough to load.
My feeling is though until I gain more competence I just stay at the practice range.
Are you literally coming in last at every match?
Sounds like you need to ground your fundamentals. The best way to do that is getting a good coach who can break down the basics, then dry fire daily while focusing on the thingts you don't do well.
I've seen a lot of fast shooters blow a stage here and there. This usually results from a poor grip on the draw, failure to focus on the sights, or overgripping/flinching as the shot breaks. Work on those three basics between matches and you'll likely see some improvement.
Lastly, stay in the fight. If you walk away, you loose.
Lastly, stay in the fight. If you walk away, you loose.
So true. Virtually everyone who poopoos competition either is too scared to test themselves or tried it once and failed he test and fabricated reasons for it post facto. Don't be that guy, and don't LE it beat you.
Hey Bob
Are you able hit in a casual setting the shots you miss in comp? If so, then it may be the jitters like Rob mentioned. If so, stick with it, the feeling will subside as you progress. Also be aware that when I find myself missing it is almost always a trigger control problem. Hope this helps.
Yes I have very much improved in a casual practice setting. My accuracy isn't great but I can A zone at 15 yards 20/20 times at a moderate pace (handgun) and at 50 yards with carbine I do about a 4" group
--
Well I often do get last, but not always. Last carbine match is a good example:
Stage 1 (short last):
33/46 0 pts down
Stage 2 (the infamous missed all 5 plates close range--shot 1st)
46/46 55 seconds in points: 9 FTN
Stage 3 (shot second)
44/46 1 FTN pen (only hit target once).
Overall 17/17 in my division and 44/46 overall. people behind me had serious equip failures and a DNF.
So I would be ok with stage 3 (50% of shooters had 1+ FTN and I was really slow with a required mag change--raw time was slow) and happy with stage 1 (it was almost dark--low light was interesting). Its pulling a stage 2 that is absolutely embarrassing.
So I can do ok (even if I am going relatively slow)--its those horrible streaks that I really am concerned with.
its a very humbling experience because i don't see a lot of other shooters at my level, but it sounds like its not an unfixable issue. Maybe I just shoot with the wrong people (recommending an instructor who blew me off probably was a hint).
Used to see something similar at SASS events with newer shooters. If they shot the stage first, they had a hard time, if they shot it after a few other shooters, they had a little time to process the stage in their mind (aka gaming it a bit).
Best thing I found even when shooting it first was to visualize the stage in my mind a couple of times. It doesn't do much for your "reactive" skill, but it does a whole lot for your confidence, and with confidence in your back pocket, you can focus more on raw skills without the worry of those eyes burning a hole in the back of your neck.
As far as tuning your skills for the "first out the gate" kind of moments, get some of those numbered/colored box targets and have someone call out a number. It'll train you to move your eyes and mind to the correct target without necessarily knowing which target will be called every time. I look at it like this... it puts a small pause in before the trigger and in competitions, a good clean hit, even if it's slower is a hell of a lot better than a sloppy fast miss.
I would slow down, make your hits, take the time penalty.
Once you can consistently make those hits, then start to speed up.
Get into a comfort zone, and once in for a while, step out of it and make a new one.
Takes some time, but in the end you'll be fast and accurate.
its a very humbling experience because i don't see a lot of other shooters at my level, but it sounds like its not an unfixable issue. Maybe I just shoot with the wrong people (recommending an instructor who blew me off probably was a hint).
This is the #1 thing I miss about running our drills: willing shooters like yourself with an interest in improving and learning. It's a shame that a so-called professional instructor would blow off someone like you with a willingness to learn.
Reagans Rascals
05-05-11, 18:56
trial by fire... the only way to truly prepare for a specific event, is to experience that specific event over and over again and learn from your mistakes, and learn shortcuts, thats why Tier 1 guys live fire train... to become desensitized to the effects of it and get to the point where when it actually happens... they aren't surprised... no mental fog...
So I say, if it makes you happy, keep doing, screw anyone else... it doesn't matter if you are the worst guy they've ever seen, and screw the sh#tbag instructor for blowing you off... that would just motivate me to go back and whoop some ass throughly next time..
Well it sounds like I should just keep plugging away, as I do enjoy the heck outta it (save for the embarassment part). I always feel pretty relaxed afterwards and my wife can't get me to shut up.
Just be sure to work on the fundamentals in between. If you go to a match and you're having trouble with your 25 yard off-hand shots, get out to the range and work on that in the weeks that follow.
Not sure what sort of range limitations you have in your area. For me I have to try to approximate the issues I have at the matches with static-range practice in between. This was the point of the drills sessions I was running which was to work on some challenges that we identified in the matches because there really isn't an easy way in our area to practice dynamic shooting.
If I may make one more suggestion, that is to pick something to focus on at each match. Accuracy (meaning zero down) is always a good such goal.
Alaskapopo
05-05-11, 21:21
I would slow down, make your hits, take the time penalty.
Once you can consistently make those hits, then start to speed up.
Get into a comfort zone, and once in for a while, step out of it and make a new one.
Takes some time, but in the end you'll be fast and accurate.
I agree accuracy and safety first then as you get your accuracy work on pushing your speed. I push my speed when I practice until I start to miss and then I tone it down a notch. At the matches I tend to shoot just a touch more conservative than in practice.
Pat
Even the instructor they recommended blew me off for a lesson, and the guy I ended up with had some gems like fingering the trigger while drawing.
Just out of curiosity, what events are you competing at in Dallas? IDPA, USPSA, or TX Combat? Also, where did the instructor come from (e.g. DFW Gun, Tiger Valley, etc)?
Sounds like I need to show up to the next event you are at so I can take last place. We all have to start somewhere.
eightmillimeter
05-05-11, 23:26
There is never such a thing as too bad to compete. You won't find another venue where your competition will try to help you if you ask. Shooters like to see other shooters be successful. Go for it, competition is some of the best practice.
Alaskapopo
05-06-11, 03:09
So true. Virtually everyone who poopoos competition either is too scared to test themselves or tried it once and failed he test and fabricated reasons for it post facto. Don't be that guy, and don't LE it beat you.
I agree 100%. Most people I have seen that knock competition shooting simply don't like losing. I have seen all the excuses. Like its not combat shooting. So what it still a measure of your gun skills (accuracy and speed as well as weapon manipulation).
For the OP competition is great and I would also suggest some formal training to help you get a good foundation. Competition is a test of your skills it does not really teach you what you need to know. So I would say get some training and estabilish some fundamentals and then use those skills at the match to measure your improvement.
Pat
Jesse Tischauser
05-06-11, 06:54
I find out hard to believe that you are too bad to compete. I've seen some very inexperienced and almost dangerous shooters shoot a match and be safe and have fun. They also got better with time. If you want to get better the best thing you can do is take a class with a known academy/school. Wh
I see you're In Dallas. We can find you a place to go to get your fundamentals grounded. TacPro is a good school out near Stephenville just off the top of my head. Jump over on the TexasGunTalk.com forum or dfwshooters.org or join me on our Oklahoma based forum BoometShooter and we will get you up here to one of out 4-5 great training facilities. PM me if you want more info.
If I were you id go shoot a match. If you have trouble hitting steel or whatever don't worry about it. Tale three shots per target and move on. You will master the gun manipulation skills like draws, reloads, transitions, etc while you work on accuracy and trigger manipulation. Don't hesitate to ask the better shooters for help at a match. There is a bunch of free advice to be had while pasting and resetting. Furthermore ask the hood shooters at the match if you can come shoot with them sometime.
From my experience with shooting matches whether it be IDPA, IPSC, 3-gun, multi-gun, steel, or what ever most of the shooters there will be very helpful and non judgmental with the slower shooters. The experienced shooters most of them will have great advice and you can learn from them. Good basic fundamentals is key and once you have that go shoot and have fun.
Be safe
Thanks guys, I've got some good responses via PMs about some local instructors.
Mostly I do IDPA on the North Side of Town--weeknights or Sundays (kids kinda sap saturdays).
Like you guys said, my thought was that most shooters would be fairly helpful--I don't know if it is me (I'm not exactly Mr. Personality) but I was not getting a good feeling from a lot of the folks.--just kinda shaking their head like "Wow how did this guy get here" and I've asked questions about help with non-dominant eye open, sight picture, and a few other things and I get a lot of dumb looks (and to be fair some helpful advice). I've tried to pick up on every tip I can--I'm an information whore. And most of it has been very helpful-- its the comfort level with the group (those dumb looks again)--maybe its just "new guy syndrome"
Keep going and take your time. Safety is the number one issue, and if you're handling your gun safely and listening to the RO's then you are good to go.
I've tried some new matches this year and have had a great time despite being humbled. I did about what I expected on my first multigun match... However my the LR precision match totally kicked my ass. Self induced gear failures and mental fails as well. I can't wait to try it again!
We're often our own worst critic, so others perceptions may not be what you think.
jmlshooter
05-06-11, 17:19
I sent TxBob a PM, but I shot the same match Wednesday.
That's a really cliquey group they've got going over there. It's "Let me show you how good I am" and then try to trick-f*** the new shooters by putting one target 3 inches in front of another target.
"You got one procedural! Didn't shoot the closer target first!"
It's just a really negative group of about the 5-6 best guys who keep it from being fun.
Thanks guys, I've got some good responses via PMs about some local instructors.
Mostly I do IDPA on the North Side of Town--weeknights or Sundays (kids kinda sap saturdays).
Like you guys said, my thought was that most shooters would be fairly helpful--I don't know if it is me (I'm not exactly Mr. Personality) but I was not getting a good feeling from a lot of the folks.--just kinda shaking their head like "Wow how did this guy get here" and I've asked questions about help with non-dominant eye open, sight picture, and a few other things and I get a lot of dumb looks (and to be fair some helpful advice). I've tried to pick up on every tip I can--I'm an information whore. And most of it has been very helpful-- its the comfort level with the group (those dumb looks again)--maybe its just "new guy syndrome"
If that is the case, find another group to shoot with. I have yet to shoot a USPSA match were experience shooters weren't stumbling over each other to help a new shooter
jmlshooter
05-06-11, 17:47
Definitely not the case here.
Definitely not the case here.
Someone should let them know they are being jackasses and driving away new shooters
Its sounds like the learners needs to ban together and go bowling.
I think I'm gonna spread out and see some of the other local groups to see if there is a better setting. We do have the advantage of having a large local population of competetive shooters
threeheadeddog
05-08-11, 08:47
I shoot with a 50-something year old who started competition shooting(and likely shooting in general) a couple of years ago. He was very new(read not profeccient). He had equipment/trainging issues(kept wraping both thumbs on 1911, and it hurt to watch all the pain). It was unlikely that he went a single stage without missing a target completely.
Fast forward to now and honestly I get a little down when he is not out there(real character, I look forward to talking with him). He is consistantly one of the most accurate shooters and places in the middle of the pack.
There are 2 types of people.
1. ones with the inherent ability to succed if they listen,practice , and push themselves
2. ones with the ability to get better and profecient if they listen, practie, and push themselves
Those that fail are one of the above that gave up.
If you find that you are having trouble progressing then you really need to watch and listen as much as anything else. Hopefully someone will be willing to give you some pointers. I know that after matches I generally have my practice time. Alot of the time someone new will talk to me and shoot along side me. Most people dont see it as an inconvience, just dont be pushy.
As always dry fire. Trigger control is key and you shouldnt be thinking about trigger control when you shoot. It should just happen.
As the other posters have already mentioned:
slow down
focus on breath control.
Shoot accurately (and safely) first. Speed will come later.
And you may have to force your self to slow down toward the end of stages. Starting off slow is easy, but you may be rushing yourself as the confidence, the tick tock of the clock, or your own momentum gets a hold of you.
Now if I only took my own advice....I pretty much guarantee I could improve by at least 25%
I always start off slow and very accurate and then as the red mist gets a hold of me I rush and my aim suffers.
oh yeah and go to an appleseed:
http://www.appleseedinfo.org/search-states.html
That's a really cliquey group they've got going over there. It's "Let me show you how good I am" and then try to trick-f*** the new shooters by putting one target 3 inches in front of another target.
This is the kind of shit that I want to get away from when I go shooting. Politics, Attitudes, Bureacracy, Schedules, Rules, etc.
When we hit the range, we leave all that shit behind and enjoy ourselves.
I sent TxBob a PM, but I shot the same match Wednesday.
That's a really cliquey group they've got going over there. It's "Let me show you how good I am" and then try to trick-f*** the new shooters by putting one target 3 inches in front of another target.
"You got one procedural! Didn't shoot the closer target first!"
It's just a really negative group of about the 5-6 best guys who keep it from being fun.
Someone should show them this thread, maybe they will get "a clue" about how new shooters feel about their club as it currently stands.
People at our clubs in GA go out of their way to help new shooters ( we really are spoiled here in GA, I realize this the more I read about other clubs in other states). Leave the attitudes at the door, help new shooters, bring your friends and encourage people to come back for a second match, its the only way to grow the sport.
HK_Shooter_03
05-08-11, 17:07
It took me about 10 years before I was any good. (And I'm still working on it)
In a few weeks, I'm going to release a video with a few helpful drills that I use to this day during range practice sessions.
Until then, I'd suggest you go and buy a pack of paper plates (the ones that are about 8" in diameter) and practice shooting offhand slowly until you can reliably keep all of those shots on the plate at about 10 yards. The fundamentals are:
1. Point gun at target
2. Depress trigger
3. Keep gun pointed at target during #2.
"Locate the target (visually, or with the force).
Aim or point the gun at the target.
Hold the gun there until the gun fires and the bullet has left the barrel. "
Also, buy Brian Enos' book. I had to read it twice before it made any sense and a third time to actually learn something from it:
http://www.brianenos.com/index.html
Also, spend time dry firing and learning when your gun will fire.
Also, learn not to anticipate recoil which can be trained by dry firing your pistol and keeping it pointed at a target throughout the trigger pull and release.
After you get desensitized to the explosion in front of your face, your bullets will hit where your gun is pointing and at that point, it just becomes a matter of seeing what you can get away with as far as speed and accuracy goes.
threeheadeddog
05-08-11, 18:48
That reminds me. There is absolutely no reason why someone who really desires to become a better shooter should not be a member of the brian enos forums.
'nuff said. Go, join, search, learn. Maby find some locals to shoot with.
Not taking anything away from this site, but honestly for people who are serious about the technique of shooting and the growth of shooters that site is king.
Not taking anything away from this site, but honestly for people who are serious about the technique of shooting USPSA and the growth of shooters in USPSA that site is king.
As much as I'm a fan of incorporating competition shooting into one's training, it is still important to draw distinctions.
Personally I would simply slow down and really focus on your fundamentals. Forget the clock and work on making solid hits, reloads and presentation. Remember the old saying... There's no such thing as advance shooting, only a perfect execution of the fundamentals...
Without proper fundamentals you will only continue to digress. Forget the times and focus on solid fundamentals and I think you will see that your times improve by focusing on the basics (grip, stance, sight pic and trigger control). Working on fundamentals isn't a lot of fun sometimes but its what's needed to elevate your level of skill. After you have spent some time working through your fundamentals start to work with yourself on the clock so that YOU can measure your performance instead of a scoring system. It will also gradually reintroduce you to some stress. Focus on hits. The more hits you make the more your confidence will grow and the faster your times will become.
As far as quitting that shouldn't even be an option. Continue to fight through your training and you will be rewarded in the end because of it.
Personally I would simply slow down and really focus on your fundamentals. Forget the clock and work on making solid hits, reloads and presentation. Remember the old saying... There's no such thing as advance shooting, only a perfect execution of the fundamentals...
Without proper fundamentals you will only continue to digress. Forget the times and focus on solid fundamentals and I think you will see that your times improve by focusing on the basics (grip, stance, sight pic and trigger control). Working on fundamentals isn't a lot of fun sometimes but its what's needed to elevate your level of skill. After you have spent some time working through your fundamentals start to work with yourself on the clock so that YOU can measure your performance instead of a scoring system. It will also gradually reintroduce you to some stress. Focus on hits. The more hits you make the more your confidence will grow and the faster your times will become.
I agree with this. Get a perfect hit every time, regardless of the timer. Execute a perfect reload every time, regardless of the timer. Once you're nailing the hole like John Holmes in slow-motion you'll have the basis to be banging the mags in like a pro as you speed up.
"Slow is fast and safe is best"
Likje the others have said, its best to slow down and make sure you're doing things right. Then when you see that you are shooting the stages clean with no misses you can pick up the pace. You will eventually realize exactly what pace you can be at to maintain a balance between speed and accuracy....while also remaining safe.
Have fun!
As much as I'm a fan of incorporating competition shooting into one's training, it is still important to draw distinctions.
That site has given me the greatest info in the shooting community as a whole no doubt about it. I read more on Brianenos.com daily than I do elsewhere now, and for good reason, the quality of info there is by most accounts very very good.
That site is not just for USPSA competitor talk, while true that sport has a very strong presence there (and why wouldnt it, USPSA is a large shooting community/along with IPSC shooters from all over the WORLD who post there...), its not the only game discussed.
This is the competition discussion subforum on M4C. Lets not get into "where to draw the line between training and competition". If your posting in this forum its about competition (hence the name of the forum).
If you want to start the "competition or training" discussion, by all means, have fun with that disaster, but lets keep it out of here.
That site has given me the greatest info in the shooting community as a whole no doubt about it. I read more on Brianenos.com daily than I do elsewhere now, and for good reason, the quality of info there is by most accounts very very good.
That site is not just for USPSA competitor talk, while true that sport has a very strong presence there (and why wouldnt it, USPSA is a large shooting community/along with IPSC shooters from all over the WORLD who post there...), its not the only game discussed.
This is the competition discussion subforum on M4C. Lets not get into "where to draw the line between training and competition". If your posting in this forum its about competition (hence the name of the forum).
If you want to start the "competition or training" discussion, by all means, have fun with that disaster, but lets keep it out of here.
That was not my intention. You seem to be looking for slights against competition where there are none intended.
That was not my intention. You seem to be looking for slights against competition where there are none intended.
Not at all, however if you frequent the ARF3gun section, this topic comes up and threads go down the tube. So much so that there is now a tacted thread stating what I just did. For reference, see here
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=9&f=13&t=230214
For the sake of it all it states
"This forum is for the discussion of technical matters regarding three gun competition, such as practicing skills, necessary equipment and for discussing three gun matches. It is not the place to discuss whether three gun competition is useful training for real world purposes or whether three gun competitions are not realistic. Those threads belong in General Discussion or General Firearms.
Thanks"
Just trying to stave off the "training vs competition" debate which, tends to come up when its brought up even in passing, thats all.
Since you brought up the matter (and from my reading in here, you seem to make mention of training in this competition forum often, maybe a coincidence, maybe not) I thought it best to make the competition forum side of things crystal, thats all.
So lets help the OP improve his game, thats the nature of this question, nothing more, nothing less.
Thanks.
As far as dry fire goes, I like the stuff Matt Burkett has posted on his site, some good interactive stuff if you get bored with doing it in front of a paper target in your room.
http://www.predatortactical.com/cart.php?m=knowledgebase_detail&id=5
I like the variable speed swinger myself, found here:
http://www.predatortactical.com/uploads/media/Flashfiles/swinger_varible_rate_070704.swf
You can adjust the speed to suit your level at the time and can move the barricade around. Really cool little link.
Alaskapopo
05-09-11, 17:39
I will say this competition has made me a better shooter than just training alone did. Party because its more fun. When something is fun you want to do it more often.
Pat
I will say this competition has made me a better shooter than just training alone did. Party because its more fun. When something is fun you want to do it more often.
Pat
Did you read what I wrote above?
Not the place for this discussion, at all.
Alaskapopo
05-10-11, 01:06
Did you read what I wrote above?
Not the place for this discussion, at all.
Sorry about that I thought my comment was positive towards both. Moving on. I agree that the shooters in the OP's area should tell the match director that a few are ruining it for everyone. I want people coming back to my matches and if some people were ruining it for others I would not invite them back.
Pat
Kuro Ookami
05-16-11, 11:07
Like others have stated, generally the best way to improve would be getting perfect hits disregarding time, and getting consistent. No point in being fast if you can only be fast sometimes. Speeding up gradually until you're inconsistent, then letting the throttle off gradually until your capabilities improve. How fast you improve is generally up to a mixture of fundamental mastery (good classes), talent (inherent conceptual understanding), and diligent practice.
My reading comprehension and understanding of the situation at your social behavior indicates that this is either a lack of self confidence, or lack of social skills. Not anything against you, just sayin'. If you show a willingness to learn, and I guess potential for improvement, peopleshould be willing to teach you.
no offense taken. It is probably extreme cases of both--but more than anything self confidence.
Bob,
I used to be terrible shooting steel. It's like I had this mental block that I couldn't shoot steel and would miss like crazy. A miss on steel is a miss but a miss on paper is -1. Our range has a plate rack with 8" plates and I started shooting them slowly at first. I learned where to aim and started to see the hits. I then worked on draws with hits and improving on speed. It really helped with my hits on steel and I don't sweat it any more.
Another tip on accuracy and trigger press. An instructor had us shoot 3 shots into the same hole in the target from 3 yds. It was easy to have touching holes or a larger hole. I eventually was able to shoot into a single hole. He really had us focus on breathing and trigger control. It was the first time I pressed the trigger, held it after breaking the shot, and slowly released it to reset. I do this exercise prior to shooting groups.
Stick with it and be safe.
Eric
Nephrology
05-16-11, 22:38
I am quite new to organized competition shooting myself and my only advice is to keep shooting. I shot a hilariously embarassing match recently but it was a very good reminder that slow is smooth, smooth is fast. take your time, be deliberate with each shot, and have fun!
TXBob, competition is exactly what you need if you don't have a good NCO or instructor constantly on your ass to improve.
If you train alone the tendency is to do drills you already do well. Pressure can help us improve. Any day you can drop a hammer on a live cap is a good day of training.
What have you got to be embarrassed about? You've got a gun, too.
Competition should give you an indicator of where you are. It should also help you set goals and milestones.
See if you can buy or borrow a copy of Pat McNamara's book, Tactical Application of Practical Shooting. Competition itself isn't going to make you better, but it can be a good training vehicle. Like anything it can teach and reinforce both good and bad habits.
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