View Full Version : Rifles that eat cheap
soapboxpreacherman
05-06-11, 04:45
Ok so a discussion sprung up on wolf, golden tiger, tula, Silver bear..etc. We all love to shoot, but it is getting expensive...really has been for the past 3 years now. Not to mention most of us shoot far more then 100 rounds during a visit to the range or a course. But the conversation was also about what rifles actually shoot this garbage without short stroking, getting stuck, FTF, FTE, etc. Not one person said they had zero issues, from RRA - to - LWRC. No one was surprised but we all were wondering is there any rifles that do alright with this stuff?
The department does brass reloads...but many of us dont have that luxury of ammo on someone elses dime, let alone brass. So sound off if you have found a rifle that can chew threw a cheap diet. No one likes to shoot it other then the fact that it is cheap. And yes we know it isnt as accurate but the point is those that shoot alot at one point or another we have reached for the cheap stuff. 2k rounds doesnt last very long anymore and when you consider 2k is around 650-700 the wallet gets a little hurt.
snakedoctor
05-06-11, 05:09
I've put alot of Wolf and Silver Bear through my LMT and haven't had one issue. :cool:
You're going to find that for every single make/model that one person claims is "flawless", someone else will report that it doesn't work in their same make/model.
You're going to find that for every single make/model that one person claims is "flawless", someone else will report that it doesn't work in their same make/model.
This. I have a Franken AR that doesn't like Wolf but will eat Tula and Brown Bear, however my Daniel Defense M4V1 will eat whatever I put in it.
I would think that if you have a high quality, properly constructed weapon (AR or otherwise), you will have the highest success. There are entirely too many variables (temperature, fouling, ammo condition, load, etc.) to state that a simple pairing of weapon/ammo will be 100% effective. The effects of those variables can be diminished as the quality of the weapon and/or ammo increases, but I don't see it eliminated.
It is probably true that 100 RRA's firing 10k rounds of Wolf will have more issues than 100 Noveske's firing the same 10k rounds. But I'll bet you have no problem finding a bunch of RRA shooters that have had no issues with high volumes of crap .223.
I just fired the last 1200 rounds of wolf I had laying around through my Noveske Afgan. No malfunctions. There's my share of anecdotal evidence:cool:
bsmith_shoot
05-06-11, 08:18
I got 2 rifles that love the stuff. I got one made from a Spikes stripped lower(SBR'd) with a DD lpk, that runs a full BCM 11.5 upper, that eats it like crazy. I just put round number 6000 through it, and its mostly been cheap wolf, silver bear, and brown bear. All of that has been since christmas of 2010.
The other rifle that eats the crap is a complete spikes lower, with a complete BCM 16" carbine length M4-type upper.
The 11.5 has a BCM auto bcg, standard carbine action spring, and an H2 buffer.
The 16 has a BCM auto bcg, standard spring, and a H buffer.
I got 2 other rifles that will shoot it, but start having FTE's when things get kinda hot and dirty. One is a 16' RRA that has a BCM bcg and an H buffer. The other is a Bushy lower with a BCM 14.5 mid-length that has a BCM bcg, standard spring, and an H buffer.
Both these rifles run fine till you get a few hundred rounds through them. They both start sticking cases, but the mid-length has short-stroked a couple times. All I have to do is drench the bcg with clp, and its good for a few hundred more rounds.
Just to be clear, all 4 run brass ammo flawlessly.
I also wanna point out that I use Mobil 1 full synthetic as a lube, but take a can of clp with me to the range and classes, for mid-excercise touch-ups.
Running a rifle buffer system can't hurt. I have a whopping example of ONE. But... I ran some of that trash ammo through an 11.5 Colt upper. And it ran great with the rifle buffer system.
Some ape gave me the ammo since it wouldn't run in his gun.
Most any AR will shoot crap ammo. The thing to realize is that if your gun has a CORRECT Gas Port and you have the buffer spring and buffer up for mil-spec ammo then you will most likely have short stroking when you switch to the under pressured ammo.
C4
Most any AR will shoot crap ammo. The thing to realize is that if your gun has a CORRECT Gas Port and you have the buffer spring and buffer up for mil-spec ammo then you will most likely have short stroking when you switch to the under pressured ammo.
For sure. Seeking a gun to run junk ammo is a little on the backwards thinking side.
bsmith_shoot
05-06-11, 08:46
Most any AR will shoot crap ammo. The thing to realize is that if your gun has a CORRECT Gas Port and you have the buffer spring and buffer up for mil-spec ammo then you will most likely have short stroking when you switch to the under pressured ammo.
C4
Grant, why does my mid-length short-stroke on accasion then? Its a 14.5 BCM with an auto bcg, standard action spring, and an H buffer. It only does it after around 250 rounds, and I can soak the bcg with clp, and it runs great for a few hundred more. Any ideas?
Sorry to rob the thread. :/
That's just the nature of a 14.5 middy. What ammo?
For sure. Seeking a gun to run junk ammo is a little on the backwards thinking side.
Agree. This means that someone would buy an AR with a large (out of spec) gas port in an effort to cycle weak ammo. What they fail to realize is that they are robbing Peter to pay Paul. Ya the gun will shoot the crappy ammo better, but the gun (as a whole) is junk.
C4
Grant, why does my mid-length short-stroke on accasion then? Its a 14.5 BCM with an auto bcg, standard action spring, and an H buffer. It only does it after around 250 rounds, and I can soak the bcg with clp, and it runs great for a few hundred more. Any ideas?
Sorry to rob the thread. :/
If you are shooting Wolf ammo, that is your problem and your answer.
Remember that 14.5" middy's are the SOFTEST shooting AR around.
So if you are going to continue to shoot under pressured ammo, drop the H buffer.
C4
bsmith_shoot
05-06-11, 08:59
That's just the nature of a 14.5 middy. What ammo?
Its done it mostly with brown bear and old wolf. The new WPA has been impressing me. Ive had around 7 or 8 SS's in around 2500 rounds of cheap stuff with this rifle. In over 2000 rounds of brass, 0 malfs.
bsmith_shoot
05-06-11, 09:01
If you are shooting Wolf ammo, that is your problem and your answer.
Remember that 14.5" middy's are the SOFTEST shooting AR around.
So if you are going to continue to shoot under pressured ammo, drop the H buffer.
C4
So for my range trips using cheaper ammo, I might wanna take a carbine buffer. I will give it a try this weekend. Thanks guys.
QuietShootr
05-06-11, 09:05
I've kind of been looking at the Silver Bear for short range training ammo. Provided my guns will shoot it, I don't see any reason not to use it. I don't want any polymer or lacquer-coated cases in my guns, so Silver Bear seems like the only cheap-ass alternative.
If it doesn't run, I won't use it...but for 100 yards and under training use, if it DOES run to my satisfaction, I'm not going to be an ammo snob about it when I can shoot twice as much for the same amount of money.
I shot some Brown Bear through my SCAR-H a few weeks ago, and it worked fine too...but I didn't let it get really hot and sit with a round in the chamber.
Its done it mostly with brown bear and old wolf. The new WPA has been impressing me. Ive had around 7 or 8 SS's in around 2500 rounds of cheap stuff with this rifle. In over 2000 rounds of brass, 0 malfs.
Shouldn't be a surprise with that stuff. I wouldn't worry about that ammo shorting on you. Run a mag of full power .223 or some 5.56 when that starts, and the gun will come back to life.
So for my range trips using cheaper ammo, I might wanna take a carbine buffer. I will give it a try this weekend. Thanks guys.
Yes.
C4
Grant, why does my mid-length short-stroke on accasion then? Its a 14.5 BCM with an auto bcg, standard action spring, and an H buffer. It only does it after around 250 rounds, and I can soak the bcg with clp, and it runs great for a few hundred more. Any ideas?
Sorry to rob the thread. :/
Thank you for making my case for me.
I have over 1100 rounds of almost entirely "crap ammo" through two different 14.5" mid-length BCM uppers (one a complete rifle, one on a BCM lower) with an H buffer and GI spring and have had zero short-stroking.
This thread is pointless, and has already gone the way I expected it to, with not only different people reporting different results with identical setups but also with the ammo snobs trickling out of the woodwork to proclaim the superiority of their pet loads and trash talk the steel cased stuff that they'd "NEVER shoot".
Try steel cased ammo in your gun. I have yet to see a gun that can't be made to work with it, even with these mythological "milspec gas ports" and other inconsequential minutia. Even the current production KAC SR15 owners are reporting an ability to run those guns with the "shit ammo". If running steel cased ammo is important enough to you for you to try making some small tweaks then have at it. If not, then don't.
ForTehNguyen
05-06-11, 09:47
My BCM upper ARs and even my ACR eat up steel case all day
I guess I don't see the point of buying cheap ammo when, if you look for it, better ammo can be had for not that much more. Especially if you buy in bulk (+5k at a time).
I bought a metric shit load of that Hornady Training ammo for around .38/rd and it runs like a champ. Seems to be a little more stout than the wolf stuff and the wolf stuff is only around .10/rd cheaper. Prvi can be had for around .40/rd at times. (I'm sure this is going to get worse before it gets better for sure in regards to price)
With as much as people on here shoot and with what gear they are shooting with, $500.00 is kind of a drop in the bucket don't ya think?
Hell, I work a second job just to support my ammo habit, 4 days a month. I'd rather work a little more and buy better ammo than have to worry if the cheap stuff has enough poop to it to cycle my weapon.
My BCM upper ARs and even my ACR eat up steel case all day
Any of those 14.5 middies? That seems to be the most intollerant config for junk ammo.
I guess I don't see the point of buying cheap ammo when, if you look for it, better ammo can be had for not that much more. Especially if you buy in bulk (+5k at a time).
I bought a metric shit load of that Hornady Training ammo for around .38/rd and it runs like a champ. Seems to be a little more stout than the wolf stuff and the wolf stuff is only around .10/rd cheaper. Prvi can be had for around .40/rd at times. (I'm sure this is going to get worse before it gets better for sure in regards to price)
With as much as people on here shoot and with what gear they are shooting with, $500.00 is kind of a drop in the bucket don't ya think?
Hell, I work a second job just to support my ammo habit, 4 days a month. I'd rather work a little more and buy better ammo than have to worry if the cheap stuff has enough poop to it to cycle my weapon.
I agree. I'd rather shoot less than run shit ammo. :confused:
Doc Safari
05-06-11, 10:02
It amazes me that people will spend over a thousand dollars on a quality rifle then proceed to try to put the cheapest, crappiest ammo known to Man through it.
That's like having a Porsche and trying to use regular unleaded in it.
It amazes me that people will spend over a thousand dollars on a quality rifle then proceed to try to put the cheapest, crappiest ammo known to Man through it.
That's like having a Porsche and trying to use regular unleaded in it.
I had an Escalade that Cadillac told me I needed to put 93 octane through. I ran 87 octane for over 70k miles without an issue.
Your presumption is a fallacy. Unless you wake up in the morning and shit money everyone is on a budget. If you can buy, and shoot, 5k rounds for the price of 4k, then you'd be smart to choose the cheaper ammo and get the training.
However, if your training limitation is not money for ammo but time to train, then I'd be inclined more to agree with you. If you have the budget for it, and the only reason you're shooting 4k rounds/year is because you don't have the time to shoot 5k, then you should shoot the "better" ammo.
Which brings up a whole 'nother problem with the ammo snobs, which is now even loads like PMC, SM193, Sellier & Bellot, etc. aren't "good enough" for these guys, which means you're not looking at 4k rounds a year instead of 5k but more like 3k instead of 5k. Although few of them ever volunteer what this "better" ammo they are shooting is, except for the basement dwellers who reload.
and if the difference in the price of ammo is enough for a guy to get to a training class vs. not, then you'd be a fool to sit home shooting fairy-dust ammo on your own and missing out on training with cheap ammo.
With as much as people on here shoot and with what gear they are shooting with, $500.00 is kind of a drop in the bucket don't ya think?
not when that $500 is another 2k rounds of ammo, no I don't.
Hell, I work a second job just to support my ammo habit, 4 days a month. I'd rather work a little more and buy better ammo than have to worry if the cheap stuff has enough poop to it to cycle my weapon.
I'd rather spend time with my family, get to the gym, etc. and simply change a buffer in a gun (often even that isn't required) and have enough left over to buy 20-25% more ammo for the same price.
Doc Safari
05-06-11, 10:16
I had an Escalade that Cadillac told me I needed to put 93 octane through. I ran 87 octane for over 70k miles without an issue.
Your presumption is a fallacy. Unless you wake up in the morning and shit money everyone is on a budget. If you can buy, and shoot, 5k rounds for the price of 4k, then you'd be smart to choose the cheaper ammo and get the training.
However, if your training limitation is not money for ammo but time to train, then I'd be inclined more to agree with you. If you have the budget for it, and the only reason you're shooting 4k rounds/year is because you don't have the time to shoot 5k, then you should shoot the "better" ammo.
Which brings up a whole 'nother problem with the ammo snobs, which is now even loads like PMC, SM193, Sellier & Bellot, etc. aren't "good enough" for these guys, which means you're not looking at 4k rounds a year instead of 5k but more like 3k instead of 5k. Although few of them ever volunteer what this "better" ammo they are shooting is, except for the basement dwellers who reload.
and if the difference in the price of ammo is enough for a guy to get to a training class vs. not, then you'd be a fool to sit home shooting fairy-dust ammo on your own and missing out on training with cheap ammo.
I get your points, but it seems like the same people who want to shoot crappy ammo are the same ones who cry the loudest when it causes their gun to malfunction, or corrodes this or that component, what have you.
That was my only point.
Yes, we are all on a budget, but to my mind that speaks even greater reason to stick to quality that you know you can rely on. If all of your ammo is GTG then you don't have to worry that you wasted money on a case of ammo that doesn't work in your gun.
I think you and I agree more than it appears on the surface; we are just looking at this issue from different angles. :)
EDITED TO ADD: The brands you listed, PMC, S&B, XM193, I don't consider "shit" ammo. Although I avoid S&B because it has etched the bolt face on more than one rifle for me.
There is just so much misinformation that goes around about this ammo, often propagated by those who have never tried it and who lack the emotional confidence to simply shoot what they shoot and shut up about things they know nothing about. It would be helpful if those that trash-talk the steel-cased ammo would share their direct experience with it and the failures they've encountered.
Yes, cheaper ammo may have a higher incidence of malfunctions. I typically encountered 2-5 failures to eject in 1k rounds of Wolf prior to 2009. This is nothing more than a chance to practice "push/pull, rack & roll" and for training ammo is a good training opportunity at best and a mild annoyance at worse. And I ALWAYS have a second gun and enough brass-cased ammo with me at classes to get me through if I encounter a total failure issue. Up to December 2009 I was toting the same two boxes of XM193 with me to classes over and over again without ever opening it. Better to have it and not need it...
2009-2010 I encountered an increase in the frequency of stuck cases, seriously stuck cases, which leads me to believe that something changed in the ammo. Even with this change, I could easily run this ammo for <300 rounds on a clean chamber, so for some applications (such as our local matches) it was still GTG. Interestingly this occurred with one of the BCM 14.5 mids I have. Interesting because a simple change from Wolf to Brown Bear completely eliminated the issue going forward. I had three failures to extract in the first 100 rounds, all Wolf, and fired another 340 rounds of Brown Bear under the same schedule without further issue.
I bought a metric shit load of that Hornady Training ammo for around .38/rd and it runs like a champ. Seems to be a little more stout than the wolf stuff and the wolf stuff is only around .10/rd cheaper
My last two purchases of wolf/tulammo were about $.20/rnd shipped, so I could do almost twice the training.
Regarding rifles eating it, I've had absolutely no issues across 5-6 rifles ranging from 16" Noveske LoPro, 10.5" LMT MRP, and now a 12.5" Noveske Crusader upper. All of the shorty uppers have been fired on the same LMT Defender lower that came
with my MRP.
My 10.5 has seen the most with about 2k rounds, and just one quick cleaning (only done to show a buddy how to clean).
Accuracy is fine with it. I was able to hold about 2moa with a 14.5" SS Noveske Afghan using a cheap scope.
If it works for you, use it. Even with high end ammo, different rifles prefer slightly different loads. What's important is that you find what's reliable for your specific situation.
EDITED TO ADD: The brands you listed, PMC, S&B, XM193, I don't consider "shit" ammo.
But some people do. And they'll be along shortly to tell you that, while you may be a star-bellied Sneetch, your star isn't as shiny as theirs so you're a second-class citizen too.
:sarcastic:
Doc Safari
05-06-11, 10:32
Yes, cheaper ammo may have a higher incidence of malfunctions. I typically encountered 2-5 failures to eject in 1k rounds of Wolf prior to 2009. This is nothing more than a chance to practice "push/pull, rack & roll" and for training ammo is a good training opportunity at best and a mild annoyance at worse. And I ALWAYS have a second gun and enough brass-cased ammo with me at classes to get me through if I encounter a total failure issue. Up to December 2009 I was toting the same two boxes of XM193 with me to classes over and over again without ever opening it. Better to have it and not need it...
2009-2010 I encountered an increase in the frequency of stuck cases, seriously stuck cases, which leads me to believe that something changed in the ammo. Even with this change, I could easily run this ammo for <300 rounds on a clean chamber, so for some applications (such as our local matches) it was still GTG. Interestingly this occurred with one of the BCM 14.5 mids I have. Interesting because a simple change from Wolf to Brown Bear completely eliminated the issue going forward. I had three failures to extract in the first 100 rounds, all Wolf, and fired another 340 rounds of Brown Bear under the same schedule without further issue.
Now you're helping me make my point...LOL. :D
I love PMC in my BCM carbine. It loves the round. Never have had a malfunction in what is going on a thousand rounds or so since I bought my carbine last October.
I take your points about cheaper ammo leading to more practice and/or training, and I also sympathize with the fact that none of us have a money tree in our yards.
But you can compensate for budget constraints by giving up other things. How many people who bitch about not being able to afford good ammo also have a boat, ATV, and the 'gold' package of cable TV they never watch?
For me personally, if I have to I buy a couple-three boxes of ammo out of every paycheck if it gets that bad. Or I cook at home instead of eating at Texas Roadhouse.
I'm just of the stripe that you should shoot for the best ammo (pun intended) and your worries are fewer.
Each person has to do what he thinks is best. :)
EDITED TO ADD: I'm not an ammo snob (really), and I admit to being a chart snob. I just shake my head at people who run to buy a case of Wolf off Sportsman's Guide, then complain when every other round gets stuck or something.
It amazes me that people will spend over a thousand dollars on a quality rifle then proceed to try to put the cheapest, crappiest ammo known to Man through it.
That's like having a Porsche and trying to use regular unleaded in it.
To me.... if you want to shoot cheap, steel cased ammo. Buy an AK. :confused:
Good ammo is the life blood of the AR. Shit! I don't even like the idea of shooting half of the BRASS CASED crap that's out there now. Let alone the total crap import steel.
Doc Safari
05-06-11, 10:56
To me.... if you want to shoot cheap, steel cased ammo. Buy an AK. :confused:
Not that I'm a big AK fan, but I've shot mine often enough to know that steel cased ammo is potentially hard on the gun even if it's an AK. In years past I've watched neat little rings get etched around the firing pin holes because the steel cases don't expand and seal the primer pocket as tightly as with brass cased ammo. I've even seen brass S&B ammo do this.
I also am suspicious that Russian steel cased ammo is mildly corrosive no matter what the box says. How come my gas block and muzzle brake have a fine red film on them weeks after cleaning and protecting with CLP? I suppose it could be fine iron particles from the steel cases having been cooked onto the rifle's components, but who knows? It looks like rust to me.
So I would qualify your statement by saying that if you want to shoot cheap steel cased ammo, buy a cheap AK. :D
not when that $500 is another 2k rounds of ammo, no I don't.
I'd rather spend time with my family, get to the gym, etc. and simply change a buffer in a gun (often even that isn't required) and have enough left over to buy 20-25% more ammo for the same price.
Ohh, I hear ya loud and clear Rob. I'm no ammo snob and have shot Wolf from time to time, but when I have the extra coin, I'll buy the so called "better stuff". Biggest thing is keeping an eye out for a good deal and jumping on it asap.
I totally understand the budget thing, but my wife and I are childless, thus time is not an issue... oh and she shoots too, so double benefit. I do understand though, but I'm not trying to be snobby. :D
Now you're helping me make my point...LOL. :D
I love PMC in my BCM carbine. It loves the round. Never have had a malfunction in what is going on a thousand rounds or so since I bought my carbine last October.
I take your points about cheaper ammo leading to more practice and/or training, and I also sympathize with the fact that none of us have a money tree in our yards.
But you can compensate for budget constraints by giving up other things. How many people who bitch about not being able to afford good ammo also have a boat, ATV, and the 'gold' package of cable TV they never watch?
For me personally, if I have to I buy a couple-three boxes of ammo out of every paycheck if it gets that bad. Or I cook at home instead of eating at Texas Roadhouse.
I'm just of the stripe that you should shoot for the best ammo (pun intended) and your worries are fewer.
Each person has to do what he thinks is best. :)
EDITED TO ADD: I'm not an ammo snob (really), and I admit to being a chart snob. I just shake my head at people who run to buy a case of Wolf off Sportsman's Guide, then complain when every other round gets stuck or something.
This is just nonsense to me now. It perpetuates all these silly internut persona whereby we're all running around tossing grappling hooks onto rooftops to surveill the neighbors, we're all carrying two pistols, a light, a multitool, and spare ammo for it all, and we're all just 24/7 Tactical Ted.
Boats, RVs, vacation homes, etc. are realities of life. It would be a completely pathetic existence to go without all luxuries in life just to pursue training for war with a carbine. it's such an asinine example it doesn't even bear spending this much time discussing it.
If that IS the existance anyone is leading, I feel truly, truly sorry for them. You are so missing out on the joy of being an American, and enjoying the luxuries of life that we are able to enjoy. This isn't the West Bank. You're not a Somali farmer trying to resist the mooslimb gangs, you're not a Mexican peasant trying to fight off the drug cartels, etc. You're an accountant from Muskogee, or a lawyer from Topeka, or a mechanic from Salem, or an IT guy from Dallas...
"You should skip taking your kids out on the boat this weekend so you can afford better ammo to train with for a fantasyland encounter".
Do people listen to themselves, or read what they write before then hit "submit"?
Doc Safari
05-06-11, 11:13
This is just nonsense to me now. It perpetuates all these silly internut persona whereby we're all running around tossing grappling hooks onto rooftops to surveill the neighbors, we're all carrying two pistols, a light, a multitool, and spare ammo for it all, and we're all just 24/7 Tactical Ted.
Boats, RVs, vacation homes, etc. are realities of life. It would be a completely pathetic existence to go without all luxuries in life just to pursue training for war with a carbine. it's such an asinine example it doesn't even bear spending this much time discussing it.
If that IS the existance anyone is leading, I feel truly, truly sorry for them. You are so missing out on the joy of being an American, and enjoying the luxuries of life that we are able to enjoy. This isn't the West Bank. You're not a Somali farmer trying to resist the mooslimb gangs, you're not a Mexican peasant trying to fight off the drug cartels, etc. You're an accountant from Muskogee, or a lawyer from Topeka, or a mechanic from Salem, or an IT guy from Dallas...
"You should skip taking your kids out on the boat this weekend so you can afford better ammo to train with for a fantasyland encounter".
Do people listen to themselves, or read what they write before then hit "submit"?
Oh, brother. I didn't intend for this to turn into an argument. You took my comments to the looney bin extreme and I'm sorry for that.
All I was trying to convey is that none of us can afford everything, and if you enjoy one activity then you may have to give something else up.
Any militia crap you envisioned is in your mind, not mine. :)
Sorry if you took offense at anything; that was not my intent.
EDITED TO ADD: This has been an interesting argument. I'm sorry it seems to be getting heated and I believe we can agree to disagree but please don't put words in my mouth. :)
EDITED (AGAIN) TO ADD: Even though I know "you ain't talkin' to me", you are correct that some people get a little fanatical about all this. :)
TonyTacoma
05-06-11, 11:16
I agree with most of what your saying, however, from a mechanics point of view, I would recommend using the octane rated gas that is specified in your owners manual. I promise you it's not to trick you into spending more money, it's an important piece of how your motor runs. Sorry about little off topic.
I had an Escalade that Cadillac told me I needed to put 93 octane through. I ran 87 octane for over 70k miles without an issue.
Your presumption is a fallacy. Unless you wake up in the morning and shit money everyone is on a budget. If you can buy, and shoot, 5k rounds for the price of 4k, then you'd be smart to choose the cheaper ammo and get the training.
However, if your training limitation is not money for ammo but time to train, then I'd be inclined more to agree with you. If you have the budget for it, and the only reason you're shooting 4k rounds/year is because you don't have the time to shoot 5k, then you should shoot the "better" ammo.
Which brings up a whole 'nother problem with the ammo snobs, which is now even loads like PMC, SM193, Sellier & Bellot, etc. aren't "good enough" for these guys, which means you're not looking at 4k rounds a year instead of 5k but more like 3k instead of 5k. Although few of them ever volunteer what this "better" ammo they are shooting is, except for the basement dwellers who reload.
and if the difference in the price of ammo is enough for a guy to get to a training class vs. not, then you'd be a fool to sit home shooting fairy-dust ammo on your own and missing out on training with cheap ammo.
I agree with most of what your saying, however, from a mechanics point of view, I would recommend using the octane rated gas that is specified in your owners manual. I promise you it's not to trick you into spending more money, it's an important piece of how your motor runs. Sorry about little off topic.
Indeed... Although off topic... the mental block is still the same.
I bet those valves and spark plugs didn't look so good.
I remember an idiot I went to high school with. He ran his Honda CRX for like 40 or 50k without changing the oil. :blink: The engine sill ran.. but that doesn't mean it was acceptable.
bsmith_shoot
05-06-11, 11:39
I got a few hundred rounds of 75gr TAP, but if I shoot, its the cheap stuff. If I could afford it, I would shoot nothing but Lake City M855, but I got 2 kids and an ex-wife. I buys cheap, so I can shoot more.
I agree with most of what your saying, however, from a mechanics point of view, I would recommend using the octane rated gas that is specified in your owners manual. I promise you it's not to trick you into spending more money, it's an important piece of how your motor runs. Sorry about little off topic.
Totally agree.
My son is a Nissan master mechanic and says for just about everyone of their models, high octane is the recommended fuel. Their regular cars, not the Z or the GTR, will "run" on regular, and the average driver won't have clue that their car isn't running to full potential. Eventually different things will begin to plug up, resulting in less performance and eventually running poorly over time. It happened to my daughter in law who wasn't going to pay extra for gas in her mini-van.
Creepinbeetle
05-06-11, 12:02
First post:
I've inherited an AR15 from my father inlaw two years ago. Also was left with 15k+ of a mix of .223, and 5.56Nato. About 4k of it was steel cased. I've since shot all 4k of the steel and haven't had too many issues with it at all.
Did the gun get dirty? Sure. Few bad rounds? Yep. I've noticed no corrosion, premature exctractor wear, or any other hardware issue running the "cheap stuff" like I've read/seen. And this is out of a rifle many see as a peice of shit.
After shooting all that steel up I don't hesitate buy more of it. In fact, I sit on most the ammo I was left with (since it's packed real nice) and just buy steel cased and shoot the hell out of my rifle, I'm passively trying to break it so I can replace certain parts. When I do get a malfunction it's good practice, and it's not hard to clear/resolve.
I have no issue with steel cased ammo. It's cheap, challenging, and when you get a funky round...like I said, it's good practice.
To me.... if you want to shoot cheap, steel cased ammo. Buy an AK. :confused:
Good ammo is the life blood of the AR. Shit! I don't even like the idea of shooting half of the BRASS CASED crap that's out there now. Let alone the total crap import steel.
I agree with this totally! Call me an ammo snob...I could careless, my guns always shoot straight and cycle when I run good shit through them.
I agree with most of what your saying, however, from a mechanics point of view, I would recommend using the octane rated gas that is specified in your owners manual. I promise you it's not to trick you into spending more money, it's an important piece of how your motor runs. Sorry about little off topic.
QFT.....I wouldn't have bought M engines if I was too cheap to give them the proper Octane level.
I agree. I'd rather shoot less than run shit ammo. :confused:
This brings up a valid point. I don't shoot crap ammo in my guns. I (like most people) live on a budget. I have an expensive/accurate weapon so why put the worlds worst/least accurate ammo through it???
I think the difference for some of us is when we shoot, we have a intended purpose and are not just dumping rounds into the dirt as fast as we can. I personally run set drills with a desired result. Not a single round is wasted.
Training/practicing in this manner is not expensive and you can afford to shoot better ammo.
YMMV.
C4
My last two purchases of wolf/tulammo were about $.20/rnd shipped, so I could do almost twice the training.
The brass shooter can also be reloaded and or sell the brass. So the difference in cost is not that great.
C4
The brass shooter can also be reloaded and or sell the brass. So the difference in cost is not that great.
At one time people were paying $0.10 per piece of once fire LC 5.56 brass. You could factor that out of the cost of your retail price of ammo.
When it comes to shooting, I'm on a pretty huge budget. So affordable ammo is a must. I would love to be able to spend $450-$500 for a case of top quality brass cased ammo, but thats just not in the cards.
So for me to be able to shoot to any extent, Russian steel cased "junk" is where it's at. I just burned through 1k rounds of silver bear, and am about 300 rounds deep into a case of brown bear. Both are 62gr HP's. My rifle is a RRA with enough upgrades to put it somewhere in the middle of "The Chart".
I'd love to brag about not having any malfunctions, but thats not the case, and I expected it. I've been experiencing a FTE every 4 or 5 hundred rounds or so. It's slightly annoying, but also a training opportunity. And training is what this ammo is for, so all in all it works pretty damn good for what I do.
The brass shooter can also be reloaded and or sell the brass. So the difference in cost is not that great.
C4
Time is money, reloading makes sense if you like doing
it and have the time. I'm betting most people don't even pick up their brass to sell let alone reload themselves.
Sure you can bring your price down to about the same
after reloading a case 5+ times, but it would take the same amount of money and considerable amounts of time to get there. I'd rather use that time training or doing the other things in my life that afford me the ability to do training to begin with.
The overall message people should take from this thread is 'do what works for you.'
Creepinbeetle
05-06-11, 14:07
Accuracy? I really don't see that much of a difference when it comes to running drills from 80yards in. Between brass, steel, and the projectiles in those cases all seem to have the same type of combat accuracy within the ranges mentioned.
Now if one tends to train/practice at range I can see how one can get passionate about ammo.
But for a being a humble civi. I don't run "drills" much past 50yards.
Groupings, either with quality or cheap steel cased stuff pretty much are the same at shorter ranges....inside 6inch diameter on avg.
Doesn't/wont hurt the gun....especially the ones most own here.
Creepinbeetle
05-06-11, 14:09
The overall message people should take from this thread is 'do what works for you.'
Absolutely! BUT it makes for good discussion of pros and cons if it can be explained without the butt hurtness.
Time is money, reloading makes sense if you like doing
it and have the time. I'm betting most people don't even pick up their brass to sell let alone reload themselves.
Sure you can bring your price down to about the same
after reloading a case 5+ times, but it would take the same amount of money and considerable amounts of time to get there. I'd rather use that time training or doing the other things in my life that afford me the ability to do training to begin with.
The overall message people should take from this thread is 'do what works for you.'
Kind of a lot of excuses in here. Time is money, but if you cannot afford to shoot brass ammo (and like to shoot a lot), then you should really embrace reloading.
Remember that you can ALSO sell the brass. No time needed.
C4
Accuracy? I really don't see that much of a difference when it comes to running drills from 80yards in. Between brass, steel, and the projectiles in those cases all seem to have the same type of combat accuracy within the ranges mentioned.
Now if one tends to train/practice at range I can see how one can get passionate about ammo.
But for a being a humble civi. I don't run "drills" much past 50yards.
Groupings, either with quality or cheap steel cased stuff pretty much are the same at shorter ranges....inside 6inch diameter on avg.
Doesn't/wont hurt the gun....especially the ones most own here.
50yds (or 80yds) you are not going to see big shifts. Start doing walk back drills at 200yds and you will. ;)
Everyone should practice at distance. Why? One you never know the distance of the shot you will have to take and helps refine breathing, trigger control, etc, etc.
C4
Absolutely! BUT it makes for good discussion of pros and cons if it can be explained without the butt hurtness.
Agreed. Shit... I shoot with guys who often run steel cased ammo.
It's like having a gay friend.... it doesn't make you crave sausage.
Creepinbeetle
05-06-11, 14:43
Yep I agree. Since I don't practice all that much at that range...when I do, you bet it's a better quality round...mostly with the ones I'd actually use in a real deal situation. Thats more of a slower precision pace.
Though on my land I really only have my range out to 150 but can go out to 200-225max.... by then I'm really close to the house....wife gets pissy when I'm poppin off that close.
I'd have a really hard time justifying a SD shoot out at those ranges, hence why I work on closer ranges.
For the guys that say not to run steel cased ammo: is Hornady practice ammo lumped into this category or is it an exception? As far as cheaper brass cased ammo: how does Fiocchi rank? Fiocchi can be had at good prices as compared to Prvi or Lake City.
For the guys that say not to run steel cased ammo: is Hornady practice ammo lumped into this category or is it an exception? As far as cheaper brass cased ammo: how does Fiocchi rank? Fiocchi can be had at good prices as compared to Prvi or Lake City.
No exceptions for me. Fiochi is pretty good, but the brass flash holes are often was off center.
If I was buying ammo that I wanted to use the brass for reloading... I'd pass on Fiochi. I generally toss "GFH" brass into the recycler without loading it once.
Yep I agree. Since I don't practice all that much at that range...when I do, you bet it's a better quality round...mostly with the ones I'd actually use in a real deal situation. Thats more of a slower precision pace.
Though on my land I really only have my range out to 150 but can go out to 200-225max.... by then I'm really close to the house....wife gets pissy when I'm poppin off that close.
I'd have a really hard time justifying a SD shoot out at those ranges, hence why I work on closer ranges.
While most Civy involved encounters are close (room distances), it is always good to know what your weapon will do at distance.
If someone is on your land firing rounds at you, you are justified in shooting them (no matter the distance).
C4
For the guys that say not to run steel cased ammo: is Hornady practice ammo lumped into this category or is it an exception? As far as cheaper brass cased ammo: how does Fiocchi rank? Fiocchi can be had at good prices as compared to Prvi or Lake City.
I shoot a lot of the TAP Practice. Love the ammo. I also shoot UMC (brass) as I get it for free.
C4
Not looking to reload. If not, is it fine?
Creepinbeetle
05-06-11, 15:18
If someone is on your land firing rounds at you, you are justified in shooting them (no matter the distance).
C4
Yep...and while at it, it's best to use a better "practice round" than steel cased. That's when I dig into a can of the M855 stuff.
ilikeguns111
05-06-11, 15:35
my bcm hates steel:blink: my spikes loves it:D
Not looking to reload. If not, is it fine?
Yeah. Pretty good stuff. I've never read of any bad experiences with it. And their match ammo shoots pretty good too.
Creepinbeetle
05-06-11, 15:54
For the guys that say not to run steel cased ammo: is Hornady practice ammo lumped into this category or is it an exception? As far as cheaper brass cased ammo: how does Fiocchi rank? Fiocchi can be had at good prices as compared to Prvi or Lake City.
No it's not lumped with the Russian/Turkey/Ukrain/Czech/Korean etc. stuff.
Somtimes I get that bulk brick of 55gr. Federal from WM.
For the guys that say not to run steel cased ammo: is Hornady practice ammo lumped into this category or is it an exception? As far as cheaper brass cased ammo: how does Fiocchi rank? Fiocchi can be had at good prices as compared to Prvi or Lake City.
While it shares the same primed case as Brown Bear (Hornady buy the cases from Barnaul), the powder and bullets are loaded by Hornady and in usage it bears no resemblance to the Russian stuff - its cleaner burning, hotter loaded and the projectile is high quality. Heck, it even bears no resemblance to the usual bulk run of the mill brass ammo that everyone raves about - it is much more accurate, well capable of 1 MOA.
Short of reloading the Hornady Training ammo is the best bang for the $$ accuracy secret out there (although people must be cottoning on, as it's gone from $259/k to $320/k in the last 6-8 months). Still, I would take it over XM193 any day of the week. The new "Hornady Steel Match" line is basically an expansion of the same.
Regarding the discussion on the Russian ammo - what I can't understand is why those bloody Russians just can't put a couple of extra grains of powder in each cartridge....it would clear up 99% of the problems overnight. I'd be more than happy to pay an extra cent a round for a slightly hotter load; and it would increase functionality across the board....and by doing that it also might stop some of the manufacturers out there to hogging out gas ports to ensure their rifles run with the stuff.
Kind of a lot of excuses in here. Time is money, but if you cannot afford to shoot brass ammo (and like to shoot a lot), then you should really embrace reloading.
Remember that you can ALSO sell the brass. No time needed.
C4
It's not an excuse, it's a decision, and I certainly don't give two flips whether you make the same decision.
It's comments like that that tend to drag conversations into pointless arguments on the big ole internet (where no one wins).
what I can't understand is why those bloody Russians just can't put a couple of extra grains of powder in each cartridge...
I can't say without pressure testing and neither should you. Just because it does not cycle robustly in your rifle does not mean chamber pressure is low. If they use a powder with a burn rate that is faster than ideal, chamber pressure may be high while pressure drops off more at the gas port.
Cheap ammo is made to meet a price point not a quality point, I don't want it loaded to max.
Fair enough Todd....I'm not a reloader, there's obviously more to it. I just figured that as it's considered notoriously weak, if they just somehow improved it to match even budget Western specs but still used the steel case it'd be good. But it sounds like its not that simple then.
It might be that the chamber pressure is low, it could also be the powder burn rate, or the need to leave more room for inconsistent powder charges to not be dangerous.
It could be improved but I would expect the price would need to go up.
bsmith_shoot
05-06-11, 18:51
I can say this for an example of weapon reliability using steel case ammo, but its just an example in one rifle. Not too long ago, I attended a 2 day fighting rifle class, immediatelly followed by a 5 day High Risk Civilian Contractor course, at a little place called Tactical Response down in Camden, TN. I ran my BCM 11.5 sbr, and a Glock 19(gen 3).
For the total 7 days of course, I shot 3300 rounds of rifle, and 450 rounds of pistol. I had 1 malfunction in my rifle, it was due to mud in the chamber that was put there cause the p-mag I crammed home was completely full of it. The bolt didnt go into battery. I smacked the mag, ran the CH 2 or 3 times, then went back to the drill. Didnt have another malf.
Of the 3500 rounds I took to the class, 2000 were WPA 55gr, 1000 were Wolf 62gr, and 500 were XM193.
I came home with XM193.
This is just one rifle, and I know I have 2 that would have had dozens of malfs, but my point is, if you know your rifle will run it, without doing some kind of drastic change, then why not do it? This rifle has an auto bcg, standard action spring, and an H2 buffer. I am on a very strict budget, sometimes doing without some things so my boys dont have to, but I try to scrape up enough cash, as often as I can, so I can train. Its my obligation to my friends, family, and my boys, to be capable, equipped, and properly trained if I ever need to defend them. Steel cased ammo makes that possible for me.
IDK, I hate having to use the stuff, but I will. $200 a thousand is a lot better than $300, when that extra $100 will buy groceries for my kids.
Just my .02 cents, and my situation. :)
QuietShootr
05-06-11, 20:44
I just got a case of the latest version of Silver Bear in tonight(sealed primer, no sealant at the neck) and I'm going to take it out and run 500 of it full auto through my 14.5" MRP tomorrow. I'll see how it does. If it runs, and has 3 MOA accuracy to 300, I'm going to call it good for $200 a case.
If that makes me gay, etc, I guess ...
You could never be ghey shooting a MRP full auto rest assured....;)
I know I'm going to get flamed but my Bushmaster M-4 eats cheap ammo up. Steel lacquer I just keep the bolt lubed .Then I could go all day shooting .Make sure you keep it lubed because when it cools the lacquer will harden up and the bolt will stick and get a bolt up grade spring ,insert and O-ring from Bravo company it works for me :thank_you2:
Yep...and while at it, it's best to use a better "practice round" than steel cased. That's when I dig into a can of the M855 stuff.
M855 is actually a poor choice as a defensive round. Read Doc GKR's ballistics forum for much better choices.
C4
It's not an excuse, it's a decision, and I certainly don't give two flips whether you make the same decision.
It's comments like that that tend to drag conversations into pointless arguments on the big ole internet (where no one wins).
Yes choices, but if someone is complaining about the cost of shooting brass and doesn't reload then they need to stop complaining.
C4
I dont reload, dont plan on it. Maybe thats another discussion but its not in the works for me.
I do belive , and practice, cheap ammo in nice guns so I can shoot more.
Ive heard guys poo-poo the cheap ammo, show up for a class or a competition , and get smoked with a dude shooting cheap crap ammo. (like the dude next to me at the first class I attended who made open comments about my XD (long time ago) and Wolf with his AE and Hk, but couldnt keep them on a plate while I literally shot one hole groups )
If I can put twice the rounds down range for near the same cost Im willing to give up an inch off a group size at 100.
Ive run Wolf ammo 62 grain in a RRA, Colt, and a DD with no ammo problems, and Ive shot CMP COF at club matches with dudes printing 2 inch groups at 100 with Wolf running irons.
If I reloaded, or cared to, it would be another story.
Creepinbeetle
05-07-11, 10:52
M855 is actually a poor choice as a defensive round. Read Doc GKR's ballistics forum for much better choices.
C4
Again I agree, but it's whats stockpiled here. Look, the most prefered round I'd use against a real threat would be my TAP 75gr. I try to keep about 300rounds on hand all the time.
I have tons of the mil-surp that was stockpiled back when the Y2K scare was going on. This is all from my pop-inlaw whom is now deceased.
I do use it (TAP) time to time for my "drills" to make sure I/it performs as expected.
Also shooting all these types of ammo and weights have really helped me learn my iron sights and the way a projectile flies at different ranges. Sometimes I think it's too much and should stick to a single bullet type. But I've only been shooting the AR for two years so I'm still working out my do's and dont's....which at times can get frustrating.
Yes, I do shoot it out of a 1/9 twist button heavy match barrel. It doesn't keyhole and is surprisingly very accurate....as long as I do my part...which is the challenging part.
It may not add much to the discussion but here is my experience with "eating on the cheap." For the past five years, I've been feeding my rifles almost exclusively with Bear ammo (Silver and Brown), some dept. supplied Hornady steel case is also in the mix. When zeroing my rifles I usually use 55 grain FMJ brass cased ammo, and then verify with the Bear. At 50 yards, there is basically no difference with both types grouping nearly the same. Now if you go back to 200, the Bear will open up some compared to regular FMJs.
I have around 20,000 rounds of Bear down range using 2 LMTs, 2 Daniel Defenses, and most recently 2 BCM 14.5 middys. I can honestly say I've never had an ammo related malfunction using any of these rifles. The only issue I've run into was failure to lock back on an empty magazine with the 14.5 mid and an H2 buffer with an XP spring. I've since learned my lesson and chucked the XP spring for a mil spec and gone back to the H buffer. I even had a dept. issue RRA that was shot with issue Hornady steel case for training. I did not run this gun as hard as my personal guns, but dept. wide I don't recall any issues.
If you don't want to shoot steel cased ammo, I don't care and neither should anyone else. I however will continue to purchase twice as many rounds for the same money, and continue to plug away malfunction free.
The only rifle that I won't shoot steel cased ammo in is my Centurion Mk 12, it only gets match 75-77 grain ammo for obvious reasons. But I believe it will shoot the steel cased stuff in a pinch.
This is my sample of seven.
SeriousBRD
05-07-11, 12:53
My interwebz knowledge tells me that every rifle is different. You will not know if you can run the cheap stuff until you try.
I have put together the best rifle my budget will allow, a 14.5' BCM carbine. It eats Brown Bear just fine.
I am constantly fighting the urge to buy and try different equipment. I've come to the realization that my limited AR budget is best spent on ammo and actually shooting that ammo. I live in the city so my rifle is set up for CQB. I care about center of mass not MOA.
I realize the cheap stuff should not be used when a life is at stake but for practice/training/plinking it's just fine for me. I don't notice an accuracy issue inside 100 yards and I am of the opinion that during these times an occasional ftf/fte is a good thing. That's why it's called training/practice.
For me, a case of the cheap stuff is 1/2 the price of brass (I don't reload). I don't believe that shooting it damages my rifle and if it does after a few cases I can replace the entire upper with the money I save. I'll spend my $$ on the steel stuff you spend your $$ however you wish.
Creepinbeetle
05-07-11, 13:00
I care about center of mass not MOA.
I realize the cheap stuff should not be used when a life is at stake but for practice/training/plinking it's just fine for me. I don't notice an accuracy issue inside 100 yards and I am of the opinion that during these times an occasional ftf/fte is a good thing. That's why it's called training/practice.
For me, a case of the cheap stuff is 1/2 the price of brass (I don't reload). I don't believe that shooting it damages my rifle and if it does after a few cases I can replace the entire upper with the money I save. I'll spend my $$ on the steel stuff you spend your $$ however you wish.
+1 especially the bolded text.
If I reloaded, or cared to, it would be another story.
A good point is that reloading for the sole purpose of saving money isn't necessarily a good choice. If you don't like doing it, the money savings won't matter.
For me it's cheaper to shoot, I like doing it, and I like controlling the quality of my ammo. Quality ammo is not negotiable to me.. Steel cased ammo is so far off the right side of the chart it makes Olympic Arms look mil spec. ;)
Creepinbeetle
05-07-11, 13:29
Steel cased ammo is so far off the right side of the chart it makes Olympic Arms look mil spec. ;)
LOL.....:blink:
bsmith_shoot
05-07-11, 13:32
Steel cased ammo is so far off the right side of the chart it makes Olympic Arms look mil spec. ;)
I agree with this. I will still use steel case, but you are correct.
bsmith_shoot
05-07-11, 13:45
I will tell you something I dont agree with though. I cant stand for people to judge the quality of their rifles based on whether or not they shoot wolf, brown bear, tula, etc......
I have 4 really good quality rifles, each having at least 3500 rounds through them. 2 will shoot steel case as long as you feed it to em, the other 2 will have a problem every few hundred rounds. Whether or not my rifle will function with wolf doesnt make it a poor quality weapon. My 14.5 mid-length wants to short-stroke sometimes after it gets dirty with the stuff. Feed it anything brass, it will run forever.
Didn't know there was ammo chart. Seems like if guys are using steel cased for practice successfully because they're on a budget, its a good thing. Are you avoiding it for the sake of keeping to the chart or because it won't run and/or damages your guns? If using it for 50 yds or less, it seems ok. I don't use it but its getting to the point where I will be to shoot more because money is tight.
soapboxpreacherman
05-07-11, 13:56
Ok I think this thread has gone far off point. It is about what rifles not about whether someone should reload or not, or your stupid for shooting cheap...it is about what rifles have success and with what cheap ammo. No one needs a lecture and certainly not start an argument. This is not a pointless thread either for the overwhelming majority of us have and will continue to shoot this stuff whether other like it or not. My thread is simple. But since many have failed to miss why many of us shoot the cheap stuff let me just put some numbers to it so some of you can understand why. It isnt as if we want to but economics makes substantial sense here. Lets look at the cost of 10k round of cheap stuff and xm193 as an example.
Average cheap stuff cost is around 225-240 per 1000 (Able 247)
Average XM193 is 400 per 1000 (Able 406.5)...I'm sure you might have some stuff cheaper I am only sampling one place.
If I were to buy 10k it would look like this:
Cheap: $2470
XM193: $4065
Now it gets better if I were to take the $4065 I would spend on XM193 and buy the cheap stuff for the same price I get 10K of XM193 I can get 16,457 rounds of the cheap stuff....hmmm. Make sense now? 60% more ammo for the same cost! This isnt any Al gore fuzzy math either. I used actually numbers for Ableammo. Now back to my original post.
I for one have had zero success with my SR-556C shooting Poly Wolf, every casing has gotten stuck or jammed entirely. Wolf will not cycle in my Ruger even with the 3 setting on the regulator. I put a good amount of brass through my Ruger prior with no issues. So the Ruger doesnt like wolf. I have not shoot Tula or Bear yet but sounds like bear seems to work better then Wolf and I believe tula has a reputation of being worse then wolf.
I have read on numerous post that the SR15 doesnt like the cheap stuff either. I am wondering how BCM 16" Mid-length and carbine length do with the cheap stuff. I would assume the carbine length would work better. Oh and how bout DD? Anyone have a mid-length or carbine with any success? Would love to know. Just my finding seems like the carbine length Gas block handle the weaker ammo better. This makes sense to me because of the location of the gas block on the barrel. Now...what about but pistons rifles...hmmmmm???? Anyone with a PWS114, LWRC, etc shot gobs of wolf or like with any success?
I agree with your point on economics. I've been assembling a rifle since the very end of December. I finished it up a couple of weeks ago (minus some accessories) and have yet to shoot it. I was planning to run several hundred rounds of brass through it before trying any steel ammo. The idea was to see how the rifle shoots and for steel ammo not to be a variable in case any issues should present themselves. However, there were a couple of unexpected expenses that put a damper on that idea. So now here I am with a brand new rifle in the safe that I haven't been able to put a single round through yet. Granted, I could have saved a couple hundred $$$ on parts used in the build and bought ammo with it, but that's an entirely different discussion. I finally decided that I would not hold out for brass any longer and ordered 500 rounds of WPA for $100 just so I can go shoot my new rifle. Hopefully I'll be giving a positive range report from it later this week.
bsmith_shoot
05-07-11, 14:27
I agree with your point on economics. I've been assembling a rifle since the very end of December. I finished it up a couple of weeks ago (minus some accessories) and have yet to shoot it. I was planning to run several hundred rounds of brass through it before trying any steel ammo. The idea was to see how the rifle shoots and for steel ammo not to be a variable in case any issues should present themselves. However, there were a couple of unexpected expenses that put a damper on that idea. So now here I am with a brand new rifle in the safe that I haven't been able to put a single round through yet. Granted, I could have saved a couple hundred $$$ on parts used in the build and bought ammo with it, but that's an entirely different discussion. I finally decided that I would not hold out for brass any longer and ordered 500 rounds of WPA for $100 just so I can go shoot my new rifle. Hopefully I'll be giving a positive range report from it later this week.
You mind to share the specs on the rifle. Congrats on the new "baby" too. :)
You mind to share the specs on the rifle. Congrats on the new "baby" too. :)
Not at all. Details are here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=79511
And thank you.
soapboxpreacherman
05-07-11, 14:46
Nice rifle stevel!! Let us know how shes runs on the cheap diet
Steel lacquer I just keep the bolt lubed .Then I could go all day shooting .Make sure you keep it lubed because when it cools the lacquer will harden up and the bolt will stick
As we now seem to be discussing all aspects of "steel" in this thread, I'd like to put this one to bed - the "lacquer" just does not melt, period. A while ago I hit up a spent lacquered case with a blow torch. If you play the torch over the cartridge and keep it moving, not a lot happens, and you can heat the case quite considerably with nothing happening. If you hold the torch with the hottest part of the flame stationary on the cartridge, after 15-20 seconds or, the case starts to smoke and the green color turns to a charcoal grey. At no point in time is anything remotely sticky produced; the process as it breaks down is that it just dry-burns down to carbon. When you have the charred grey look to it, you can easily scrape it off the cartridge down to the metal, and it comes off as a powder (as it is effectively just carbon at that point).
If you could get your chamber so smoking hot as to have this effect going on in there (and you'd almost certainly be having greater problems than a bit of smoking lacquer, you'd certainly be having cook-offs), I guess the additional loose carbon could contribute to the overall higher buildup of carbon caused in the chamber with steel cased ammo which indirectly may cause some "sticking", but physically sticky - just doesn't happen.
ETA - it is a good idea to keep well lubed when shooting high volumes of steel due to the general dirtiness and carbon buildup....but the "lacquer" doesn't directly have anything to do with it.
Nice rifle stevel!! Let us know how shes runs on the cheap diet
Thank you, and I'll definitely be posting up how it runs. I know that with the DD upper and barrel that I shouldn't have any trouble with the chamber being out of spec or anything like that. What I'm mainly curious to see is if I'll need to swap a tungsten weight for a steel one in the buffer to get the bolt to lock back on an empty magazine, especially when shooting cheap steel ammo. I've read where some here have done this with the A5 buffer with great success while others didn't need to do anything at all. I guess I'll find out soon enough.
QuietShootr
05-07-11, 15:12
am about the last person who would shoot Russian ammo out of an AR, so this may be the sign of the apocalypse. *But, i can't shoot nearly as much as I need to with 5.56 at $450 a case. *I do reload, too, but I have figured out that once the ammo gets down to around 20 cents per, it's no longer worth my time to reload it. *
I don't like the normal Russian lacquered or plastic-coated rounds, because they leave a lot of crap in the chamber, especially when the gun gets very hot. I ran across some ammunition called Silver Bear that is neither plastic nor lacquered, but zinc plated steel cases. * At $200/k, I thought it would be worth a try, so I ordered a case of the 55gr FMJBT.
I took 500 rounds out today and brought my 10.5" LMT and 14.5" LMT MRP midlength, which are both guns that are designed for, and work best with, hot ammo. *I used a friend's Colt registered select fire lower with both uppers, just to add a further challenge to the ammo. I moved my buffer/spring assemblies to the auto lower when I switched uppers. * The 10.5" uses an H2 buffer and the MRP an H buffer, both with Brownells chrome silicon standard weight buffer springs.
Long story short: no drama, no malfunctions, and I beat the hell out of a 12" steel gong offhand at 250 with the 10.5". *I dumped three mags consecutively on auto with each upper, then let a chambered round sit for 10 minutes in the gun. *This is usually where Wolf and the other rounds start screwing up. *No problems at all. *No gas leakage around the primer, either, which is also a known problem with steel case ammo.
If the rest of the case shoots like this, i'm going to order a skid of this shit for training.
bsmith_shoot
05-07-11, 15:19
Thank you, and I'll definitely be posting up how it runs. I know that with the DD upper and barrel that I shouldn't have any trouble with the chamber being out of spec or anything like that. What I'm mainly curious to see is if I'll need to swap a tungsten weight for a steel one in the buffer to get the bolt to lock back on an empty magazine, especially when shooting cheap steel ammo. I've read where some here have done this with the A5 buffer with great success while others didn't need to do anything at all. I guess I'll find out soon enough.
She'll run like a chmp!!! Very sweet rifle. Im not a fan of Spikes, but I absolutely love their lowers and their rails. I got 2 Spikes lowers SBR'd. I bet your new stick will be awesome!!!!
She'll run like a chmp!!! Very sweet rifle. Im not a fan of Spikes, but I absolutely love their lowers and their rails. I got 2 Spikes lowers SBR'd. I bet your new stick will be awesome!!!!
Thank you very much. I don't have any previous experience with Spikes, but I was able to get the stripped lower locally for $100. Not a super great price, but not bad either. I checked around and my other choices were mostly RRA or DPMS. I opted for the spider.
To anyone interested, I didn't intend to pull this thread off topic when I mentioned my rifle. I look forward to reading any comments/constructive criticism/questions in my thread in the custom build forum so we can remain on topic here.
loudsixstring
05-07-11, 15:40
I've got a Stag with stock internals that over it's lifetime has had around 2500 rounds of regular Wolf and Military Classic through it without any problems other than the filth. Now that I've said this I know I'm gonna have nothing but problems.
Both my BCM and Noveske will chew thru cheap ammo no prob.
Does Silver Bear make 62 gr bullet?
Does Silver Bear make 62 gr bullet?
Yes.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM276-5.html
My 14.5" middy works perfectly fine with the Hornady TAP practice (55 gr). However, now it is more expensive than PMC. Hopefully it goes back down to at least $280/1k.
I have no choice but to shoot brass cased ammo since the gun range I belong too doesn't allow steel cased. Aim Surplus has PMC ammo for .30 a round. I'm thinking about buying a few cases the next time I get paid.
bsmith_shoot
05-07-11, 20:32
I have no choice but to shoot brass cased ammo since the gun range I belong too doesn't allow steel cased. Aim Surplus has PMC ammo for .30 a round. I'm thinking about buying a few cases the next time I get paid.
They got Federal xm193 for only 10 bucks more a case of 1k. Might be worth it to do that.
Creepinbeetle
05-07-11, 20:52
but the "lacquer" doesn't directly have anything to do with it.
Never was a problem with most of the 4k rounds of steel I've shot.
That's also with a several mag dumps.
Nothin sticky in my rifle....unless one took it into he closet with themselves.......:eek:
As we now seem to be discussing all aspects of "steel" in this thread, I'd like to put this one to bed - the "lacquer" just does not melt, period. A while ago I hit up a spent lacquered case with a blow torch. If you play the torch over the cartridge and keep it moving, not a lot happens, and you can heat the case quite considerably with nothing happening. If you hold the torch with the hottest part of the flame stationary on the cartridge, after 15-20 seconds or, the case starts to smoke and the green color turns to a charcoal grey. At no point in time is anything remotely sticky produced; the process as it breaks down is that it just dry-burns down to carbon. When you have the charred grey look to it, you can easily scrape it off the cartridge down to the metal, and it comes off as a powder (as it is effectively just carbon at that point).
If you could get your chamber so smoking hot as to have this effect going on in there (and you'd almost certainly be having greater problems than a bit of smoking lacquer, you'd certainly be having cook-offs), I guess the additional loose carbon could contribute to the overall higher buildup of carbon caused in the chamber with steel cased ammo which indirectly may cause some "sticking", but physically sticky - just doesn't happen.
ETA - it is a good idea to keep well lubed when shooting high volumes of steel due to the general dirtiness and carbon buildup....but the "lacquer" doesn't directly have anything to do with it.
I had a firing pin locked up frozen one time on my Mas49/56 using lacquer steel the weapon went full auto on me I had to use carb-cleaner to un-freeze it after that insident I clean after words if it sat there for some time or like on my Bushy M-4 I lube the bolt after the course is finishd so if I had to wait some time before the next course so I would not have to clean the weapon .I had a friend who was shooting steel case lacquer he cleaned his weapon latter on it started short stroking on brass ammo so we shot carb-cleaner down to gas tube and nothing but pink-red came out the other end .what I'm trying to say is it does not melt it flakes off and gummes up every thing .So keep it lubed if you go through 1000 of rounds like I do of this stuff on courses using cheap steel lacquer ammo like I do than you will understand :thank_you2:
Steel-cased "cheap" ammo is one of the most divisive issues in shooting. I wish I had a nickel for every gun dealer I heard say "I don't shoot Wolf, that shit tears up the chamber/barrel/bolt/etc."
I've never had a rifle that didn't shoot steel cased ammo. I've owned Del-Tons, DPMS and Bushmaster before I knew better, and before I heard that Wolf ammo wasn't supposed to work.
My 11.5" BCM and my 7.5" no-name M&A Parts SBR upper chew through it like it's going out of style.
The fact of the matter is, steel ammo is cheap, cheap = more ammo purchased, more ammo = more shooting/training.
I simply cannot afford to shoot XM193 exclusively. It's just not economically possible. Therefore I shoot the cheapest ammo I can find that works well in my guns. The only self-imposed restriction I have is that I won't shoot corrosive ammo but that's just me being lazy.
QuietShootr
05-07-11, 22:20
I'll be getting more Silver Bear as soon as I can, in both 5.56 and 7.62x51.
I'll bench some of it in a known accurate gun just to see what it's doing.
Steel-cased "cheap" ammo is one of the most divisive issues in shooting. I wish I had a nickel for every gun dealer I heard say "I don't shoot Wolf, that shit tears up the chamber/barrel/bolt/etc."
I've never had a rifle that didn't shoot steel cased ammo. I've owned Del-Tons, DPMS and Bushmaster before I knew better, and before I heard that Wolf ammo wasn't supposed to work.
My 11.5" BCM and my 7.5" no-name M&A Parts SBR upper chew through it like it's going out of style.
The fact of the matter is, steel ammo is cheap, cheap = more ammo purchased, more ammo = more shooting/training.
I simply cannot afford to shoot XM193 exclusively. It's just not economically possible. Therefore I shoot the cheapest ammo I can find that works well in my guns. The only self-imposed restriction I have is that I won't shoot corrosive ammo but that's just me being lazy.
Well said
I simply cannot afford to shoot XM193 exclusively. It's just not economically possible.
I won't shoot that junk either. :mad: That crap was blowing primers out on Pappabears LMT a few weeks back. Iraqgunz guaged the chamber and it checked out.
To me it's not a Brass vs. Steel cased issue. It's a GOOD AMMO vs. BAD AMMO issue.
I agree that any of the commercially available ammos out there now that are decent are going to be in the high price range. The rest of that stuff, I wouldn't buy for $3.99 per box.
To me it's not a Brass vs. Steel cased issue. It's a GOOD AMMO vs. BAD AMMO issue.
Totally agree.
On that point, I wonder why more of the Western manufacturers don't follow Hornady's lead and do a steel case "training" line? Given the prices going up (or about to), I think there would be a market for that.
What DO you shoot?
Not sure if that question is for me... but... I shoot pretty much handloads exclusively. I'm at a point in my shooting where shit ammo is just completely unacceptable.
If I were to buy ammo, I'd probably pick between Q3131a1 and Federal AE. Both are somewhat pricey in my area, but are decent loads in my experience.
You're going to find that for every single make/model that one person claims is "flawless", someone else will report that it doesn't work in their same make/model.
This.
You're going to have that with lower end ammunition...a lack of consistency. We just ran a rifle school and the ONLY person that had any trouble was a shooter that had some Golden Tiger (which we took to calling "Golden Skidmark") among other assorted ammunition. That stuff would NOT run his 6920 at all...but it would run in every other gun there, including a couple of RRAs and the Superior that i mentioned in another thread.
I built my bushmaster upper/plumcrazy lower gun for under $450 as a range toy so of course I only buy the cheapest ammo for it :D It hasen't had a single problem yet [didn't see that coming]
I built my bushmaster upper/plumcrazy lower gun for under $450 as a range toy so of course I only buy the cheapest ammo for it :D It hasen't had a single problem yet [didn't see that coming]
I've thought about building a beater/turd gun in the past, but the possible outcomes are...
1. I runs good and you end up liking it, but now you wish you'd have put decent components into it... or
2. It's a piece of shit and you wish you didn't waste the money.
Either way, you lose! :D
I just have to ask: where does one sell their spent brass?
I just have to ask: where does one sell their spent brass?
Well around here it's worth more quite a bit per pound so recycling yard.
I save all my good (uncrushed) spent brass even though I dont reload. If I ever get around to buying the equipment I have multiple 5 gallon buckets full.
Most any AR will shoot crap ammo. The thing to realize is that if your gun has a CORRECT Gas Port and you have the buffer spring and buffer up for mil-spec ammo then you will most likely have short stroking when you switch to the under pressured ammo.
C4
Exactly. Mine will run Wolf but will have the occasional short stroke and will sometimes not lock back on an empty mag. Ejected rounds nearly drop at my feet. Brass cased full power ammo- no issues.
I just have to ask: where does one sell their spent brass?
I sell mine at Metal Management. There national I think.
I didn't get as much as I have in the past last week ($2.10 per lb) as I did a few months earlier ($2.24 per lb) You can watch the copper spot price to see when to sell.
Two five gallons of mixed brass is usually over 100 lbs for me, and that's the minimum I'll take in to thunder dome. :p
Funny... I never would have thought to take them to a recycling yard. Thanks for the info.
I shoot Wolf. Alot of it. And I have to say that Wolf is pretty decent ammo for the price. I get decent groups off of it and it's reliable. To me, it's simply an intelligent choice to get Wolf which is a decent grade of ammo at that price. It's a no brainer even though certain factors. I don't have a top of the line AR (until tomorrow when I pick up my SR-15) and yes, I get FTE every trip to the range. I have a RRA Carbine with none of the mods talked about the gas port blah blah blah. Wolf gives me FTE with my AR 2x a trip when I shoot 200-300 rounds. You know what? WHO CARES? It takes me 10 secs to push out the empty casing and start shooting again. Will I take Wolf to war? No. But I would have to be stupid to waste money on training ammo. It takes me 10 secs to push out the FTE casing. I prob could get something done with the gas port but if my only inconvenience is 10-20 secs a week, why bother? I love Wolf.
I built my bushmaster upper/plumcrazy lower gun for under $450 as a range toy so of course I only buy the cheapest ammo for it :D It hasen't had a single problem yet [didn't see that coming]
Our D.P.S troopers here in TEXAS uses Bushmaster M-4's to protect the border .They put there lives on them and when they train they use Wolf or what ever is cheap a lot of L.E.O's and S.W.A.T do the same .A lot of Dept. do not have the funds to train on high dollar ammo or by high dollar guns .My opinion and mine only not to start a sh@t storm but if your weapon can not eat what you feed it than find one that will and my Bushy M-4 does just that :thank_you2:
My opinion and mine only not to start a sh@t storm but if your weapon can not eat what you feed it than find one that will and my Bushy M-4 does just that :thank_you2:
So running a Bushmaster that cycles Wolf or Tula is a better choice than a Colt 6920 or something that doesn't run well on Wolf?? :confused:
I doubt you'll find too many takers on that notion here, Jethro.
soapboxpreacherman
05-10-11, 09:05
The more I think of this the more I realize that the gas port size, the mid-length vs carbine length gas block location effect the lower pressure ammo like wolf and other 223 stuff. Mid-length doesnt seem to cycle the cheap stuff as well...more short stroke issues. Where the carbine length seems to work better. But as many already know carbine lengths arent as smooth as mid. This link explains it better:
http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/carbine-vs-mid-length-gas-system
So running a Bushmaster that cycles Wolf or Tula is a better choice than a Colt 6920 or something that doesn't run well on Wolf?? :confused:
I doubt you'll find too many takers on that notion here, Jethro.
No takers here.
The simple fact is that your "cheaper" AR's (BM, RRA, Oly, DPMS, etc) are ALL OVER GASSED. This means that they will do better with the under pressured ammo (as they allow more gas through). This also means that the guns are not built to spec and also means that if you shoot mil-spec pressured ammo, you will wear out the gun faster.
There is no free lunch...
C4
John_Burns
05-10-11, 19:25
A few observations.
1. The cheap steel cased ammo will have a few rounds in a 1000rnd case that simply do not have enough powder to cycle anything but the most grossly over gassed ARs. There will also be a few more that will not lock the bolt back on the last shot but will cycle enough to work on any but the last shot in the mag.
2. This is the problem, under loaded rounds, not anything to do with the steel case or the lacquer or polymer coating.
3. One can sort the ammo by weight and get most of the under loaded rounds out but this is not fool proof as there is also rather large variation in the weight of the other components, such as the bullet and the case. It helps but is not foolproof.
4. The absolutely fool proof way to sort the ammo is to shoot it and if it causes a short stroke or the bolt does not lock on the last round then you have found an under loaded cartridge.
5. I would worry about any gun that could not cycle the majority of the steel cased ammo with no problem under favorable (warm weather and low altitude) environmental conditions. Such a gun, in my opinion, is a little under gassed if used in cold weather or other (dirty) unfavorable conditions. It could also be a rough chamber or other mechanical fault with the gun.
6. 16” barrels with the carbine gas system (7 Inch) and an 0.062 port should run fine with the steel cased ammo, barring the occasional grossly under loaded round.
7. It is pretty easy to save yourself over $100 per 1000 rnds when buying the steel cased ammo.
8. If you are not going to shoot a lot of ammo then using higher quality ammo is most likely the right choice.
9. High volume close range practice is expensive.
10. High volume close range practice is fun.
11. High volume close range practice is the only way to get to a high level of skill shooting close range targets.
I buy the Wolf ammo to get more shooting in on my budget. I just bought another case of Wolf and 500 rnds of 193. I use the Wolf inside of 100yds and the 193 to 200yds and handloads for group shooting and anything serious.
No takers here.
The simple fact is that your "cheaper" AR's (BM, RRA, Oly, DPMS, etc) are ALL OVER GASSED. This means that they will do better with the under pressured ammo (as they allow more gas through). This also means that the guns are not built to spec and also means that if you shoot mil-spec pressured ammo, you will wear out the gun faster.
There is no free lunch...
C4
Do what ?????????
A few observations.
1. The cheap steel cased ammo will have a few rounds in a 1000rnd case that simply do not have enough powder to cycle anything but the most grossly over gassed ARs. There will also be a few more that will not lock the bolt back on the last shot but will cycle enough to work on any but the last shot in the mag.
This has not been my experience. I only use Bear, no experience with Wolf, so this may not apply to your situation. I've yet to have a single round of Bear (out of 10-12,000)that has not cycled in 2 BCM 14.5 middys, 3 Daniel Defense carbines, and 2 LMT carbines. I don't think anyone would consider those rifles "overgassed."
I think this cheap vs. expensive, good vs. bad ammo is starting to head the way of the old piston debates, i.e.: I've used item X for thousands of rounds without issue. Countered by: I don't care if you like it and it works for you, I won't ever put item X in, around or near my beloved carbine, and your mother is a whore.
I'm at the point where I really don't care if I'm the only person in the tri-state area that dares to shoot steel cased ammo through my rifles. I will continue to buy more rounds with the same money, and still have the same end result as if I were shooting more expensive stuff- a .22 caliber hole in a piece of paper.
Do what ?????????
People think that the lower quality (non Mil-Spec) AR's (RRA, BM, Oly, DPMS, etc) are a better choice because they typically shoot the crappy ammo better.
In the big picture, this is an incorrect conclusion to come to.
C4
Yeah.... going back to the automotive metaphor..
A Yugo might run on shitty mexican gas, but the Ferrari chokes on it.
So the Yugo is the BETTER car?
That's basically the logic these guys are using.
It seems like whats important is how much practice you get for your money. Someone who shoots crappy ammo will have more trigger time and probably more experience clearing malf's.
Someone who shoots crappy ammo will have more trigger time and probably more experience clearing malf's.
This is a strange justification to me. One can practice all the malf drills he wants by setting them up.
And I've never ran out of good ammo and felt like... DAMN!! Had I only bought that import crap, I'd have another 50 rounds to finish my range session. ;)
This is a strange justification to me. One can practice all the malf drills he wants by setting them up.
And I've never ran out of good ammo and felt like... DAMN!! Had I only bought that import crap, I'd have another 50 rounds to finish my range session. ;)
:agree::suicide:
militarymoron
05-11-11, 21:24
Yeah.... going back to the automotive metaphor..
A Yugo might run on shitty mexican gas, but the Ferrari chokes on it.
So the Yugo is the BETTER car?
That's basically the logic these guys are using.
i think that a ferrari is more like a racegun for competition only, that may be finely tuned with handloads etc.
no one buys a ferrari for its reliability. but when buying an AR, that's usually first on my mind - will it function more often than not, with most types of ammo?
IMHO, we're talking about something that can be used as a 'daily driver' that can take 87 or 91 octane and get from point A to B reliably. the yugo and ferrari are extreme examples; i'm thinking more along the honda/acura/toyota/audi etc lines.
Creepinbeetle
05-11-11, 21:52
i'm thinking more along the honda/acura/toyota/audi etc lines.
Subaru? Standard AWD for decades.
Anyways.....I'm confused with how people buy rifles for the "real deal" all mil-spec'd out, then get skimpy on what ammo to use in it...kind of a contradiction to me.
If it's truely is "fighting rifle" it should run with any ammo you'd either have to, or want to run through it.
If/when I get a AR inwhich is made for fighting....I'm going to shoot any ammo I can get my hands on. It be steel, brass, full blown NATO loads, or the soft steel crap. To REALLY prove to me it's truely reliable no matter what I'm shooting ammo wise.
With a "fighting rifle" and all that goes into it. Don't you want it to be dynamic and flexible? Or rigid and finicky tuned to a certain type of ammo of what you're comfortable with.
Like the whole "High Speed" ( shoots quick and reliable) "Low Drag" (any ammo no matter what kind) slogin some like to use.
Honest food for thought....I'm not trying to piss further than anyone else.
bsmith_shoot
05-11-11, 22:11
Really folks, this issue is a lot more than just cheap vs. expensive, bad vs. good, coke vs. pepsi, and yugo vs. ferrari. No matter how much trigger time you have, your particular weapon will either run it, or it wont.
I think it all boils down to 2 things.
1. Financial situation.
2. Personal prefferance.
If those 2 things dont work together, then you are forced to settle for what you can live with.
I dont think that any new shooter, on any type of budget, should start out with either a 12.5 or shorter SBR, or a 14.5 mid-length. Both systems require some kind of "tweaking", whether its BCG, action spring, and buffer weight trial and error, or an issue with underpowered ammo causing short-strokes, weve all seen it happen way to many times.
A new shooter would be better served by going with a 14.5'' or 16" carbine system, or maybe a 16" mid-length. As long as they are from a reputable company, they will run.
I would preffer to train with nothing but Lake City M855, but I cant afford it. I use it when I can, but usually run steel case.
Just my thoughts on the never-ending struggle between "good vs. bad"
i think that a ferrari is more like a racegun for competition only, that may be finely tuned with handloads etc.
no one buys a ferrari for its reliability. but when buying an AR, that's usually first on my mind - will it function more often than not, with most types of ammo?
IMHO, we're talking about something that can be used as a 'daily driver' that can take 87 or 91 octane and get from point A to B reliably. the yugo and ferrari are extreme examples; i'm thinking more along the honda/acura/toyota/audi etc lines.
Well I wouldn't run Shit mexican gas in my Tacoma either.... I was picking abusurd extremes to point out the flawed logic. ;)
I dont think that any new shooter, on any type of budget, should start out with either a 12.5 or shorter SBR, or a 14.5 mid-length. Both systems require some kind of "tweaking", whether its BCG, action spring, and buffer weight trial and error, or an issue with underpowered ammo causing short-strokes, weve all seen it happen way to many times.
I think new shooters should buy a complete quality rifle. Too many are talked into building one, and buy the cheapest "CAR buffer" or best "someones favorite buffer and XP action spring" for their lower.
How many unmolested 6933's have you seen go down?
bsmith_shoot
05-12-11, 15:17
I think new shooters should buy a complete quality rifle. Too many are talked into building one, and buy the cheapest "CAR buffer" or best "someones favorite buffer and XP action spring" for their lower.
How many unmolested 6933's have you seen go down?
Exactly. Its really when we start swaying from the original design of the weapon system, that we find the issues with short strokes or BCG lock-back failures.
Exactly. Its really when we start swaying from the original design of the weapon system, that we find the issues with short strokes or BCG lock-back failures.
The 6933 is pretty far from the original design of the weapon system. ;)
christcorp
05-12-11, 15:23
People think that the lower quality (non Mil-Spec) AR's (RRA, BM, Oly, DPMS, etc) are a better choice because they typically shoot the crappy ammo better.
In the big picture, this is an incorrect conclusion to come to.
C4
But if a person never, or rarely, shoots 5.56 ammo, then the big picture for "That Shooter", would be that it is a better choice. Shooting 5.56 mil-spec ammo in an overgassed AR is similar to shooting +P pistol ammo. It can do it, and is rated to do it, but isn't intended to have a full diet of it. As you mentioned, it can wear some parts faster. But considering that a very large percentage of AR shooters shoot .223 ammo and not mil-spec 5.56 ammo, the lower pressure .223 ammo will function quite fine.
So I guess the "Good vs Bad" is relative to what ammo you are going to be shooting. If you're hell bent on only shooting 5.56 mil surplus ammo, or reloading to those pressures, then you are correct about the rifle. However; if you shoot primarily .223 ammo; whether it's brass PMC or steel case wolf; the negative opinion on the overgassed rifles doesn't apply.
But if a person never, or rarely, shoots 5.56 ammo, then the big picture for "That Shooter", would be that it is a better choice. Shooting 5.56 mil-spec ammo in an overgassed AR is similar to shooting +P pistol ammo. It can do it, and is rated to do it, but isn't intended to have a full diet of it. As you mentioned, it can wear some parts faster. But considering that a very large percentage of AR shooters shoot .223 ammo and not mil-spec 5.56 ammo, the lower pressure .223 ammo will function quite fine.
Never said 5.56. Just quality ammo that is to the correct pressure for .223. I personally do not shoot much to any 5.56 ammo (FYI).
So I guess the "Good vs Bad" is relative to what ammo you are going to be shooting. If you're hell bent on only shooting 5.56 mil surplus ammo, or reloading to those pressures, then you are correct about the rifle. However; if you shoot primarily .223 ammo; whether it's brass PMC or steel case wolf; the negative opinion on the overgassed rifles doesn't apply.
I do not think most people find M193 or M855 all that desirable (tends to be 4MOA ammo). What they do find attractive is consistency and reliability.
C4
theblackknight
05-12-11, 18:54
I must say Silver Bear is the shit. Good price, isnt too dirty, dosent need any extra lube like wolf or brownb. The smell is strange tho. I dont buy anything else. I never really shoot past 100m.
christcorp
05-12-11, 20:02
Never said 5.56. Just quality ammo that is to the correct pressure for .223. I personally do not shoot much to any 5.56 ammo (FYI).
I do not think most people find M193 or M855 all that desirable (tends to be 4MOA ammo). What they do find attractive is consistency and reliability.
C4
Now I'm really confused by what you said previously. First of all, NONE of the .223 ammo is "MIL-SPEC". Mil-Spec is 5.56. Second: .223 ammo is not at the same pressure as 5.56 generally. So I could see if you were saying that shooting 5.56 mil-spec ammo in an overgassed AR would cause excessive and premature wear and tear.... But with .223 being lower pressure to begin with, there's no way that it's going to cause excessive wear and tear on the AR that is overgassed, when the AR in question was designed around shooting the higher pressure 5.56.
So while I agree when you said that shooting an overgassed AR with Mil-Spec pressured ammo, that you will wear out parts sooner..... I don't agree that shooting ANY .223 in an overgassed AR is going to wear out parts sooner. Please let me know which .223 ammo is spec'd at higher pressure than mil-spec 5.56.
Now I'm really confused by what you said previously. First of all, NONE of the .223 ammo is "MIL-SPEC". Mil-Spec is 5.56. Second: .223 ammo is not at the same pressure as 5.56 generally. So I could see if you were saying that shooting 5.56 mil-spec ammo in an overgassed AR would cause excessive and premature wear and tear.... But with .223 being lower pressure to begin with, there's no way that it's going to cause excessive wear and tear on the AR that is overgassed, when the AR in question was designed around shooting the higher pressure 5.56.
Correct and yes, I know .223 is not 5.56 (I actually do this for a living). :)
So while I agree when you said that shooting an overgassed AR with Mil-Spec pressured ammo, that you will wear out parts sooner..... I don't agree that shooting ANY .223 in an overgassed AR is going to wear out parts sooner. Please let me know which .223 ammo is spec'd at higher pressure than mil-spec 5.56.
Shooting normal .223 pressured ammo in an over gassed AR is hard on it as well, but not as hard on it as shooting 5.56 ammo.
C4
bsmith_shoot
05-12-11, 20:38
The 6933 is pretty far from the original design of the weapon system. ;)
I do agree, it is a far stretch from Stoners original blueprint, but what I mean is this. Colt spent much money, time, and brainpower to bring all their rifles to fruition. The average "shade-tree" gunsmith just goes off of what bsmith_shoot, or what markm, says to do to their guns. Im not saying that you, or I, cant build a weapon that wont run 99.9% of the time, but a new guy cant, by and large.
I am firm in my belief that any new, and potential, buyer of an AR weapon system, should just go with a proven, but KISS, design. It just makes good sence to me.
christcorp
05-12-11, 21:40
Shooting normal .223 pressured ammo in an over gassed AR is hard on it as well, but not as hard on it as shooting 5.56 ammo.
C4
I would say then, that shooting .223 through an overgassed AR, is about on Par with shooting 5.56 through an AR that is properly gassed. So; for the person shooting mainly .223, that it really shouldn't even be an issue.
I do agree, it is a far stretch from Stoners original blueprint, but what I mean is this. Colt spent much money, time, and brainpower to bring all their rifles to fruition. The average "shade-tree" gunsmith just goes off of what bsmith_shoot, or what markm, says to do to their guns. Im not saying that you, or I, cant build a weapon that wont run 99.9% of the time, but a new guy cant, by and large.
I am firm in my belief that any new, and potential, buyer of an AR weapon system, should just go with a proven, but KISS, design. It just makes good sence to me.
I am sure you guys are getting tired of my stupid questions. But i am saving money to buy a new ar and want to make good choice this time. so that being said what do you mean by a KISS rifle design. i am assuming that is a basic rifle from the manufacture. if i am wrong i am sure someone will let me know.
I am sure you guys are getting tired of my stupid questions. But i am saving money to buy a new ar and want to make good choice this time. so that being said what do you mean by a KISS rifle design. i am assuming that is a basic rifle from the manufacture. if i am wrong i am sure someone will let me know.
KISS = Keep it simple stupid.
bsmith_shoot
05-12-11, 23:51
I am sure you guys are getting tired of my stupid questions. But i am saving money to buy a new ar and want to make good choice this time. so that being said what do you mean by a KISS rifle design. i am assuming that is a basic rifle from the manufacture. if i am wrong i am sure someone will let me know.
Not a problem man.
Here are a few examples.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M4-Carbine-AR15-Bravo-Company-s/141.htm
and
http://www.lmtstore.com/complete-weapon-systems-firearms-guns/defender-standard-patrol-model-16.html
and
http://www.colt.com/law/lecarbine.asp
There you go. :D
Not a problem man.
Here are a few examples.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M4-Carbine-AR15-Bravo-Company-s/141.htm
and
http://www.lmtstore.com/complete-weapon-systems-firearms-guns/defender-standard-patrol-model-16.html
and
http://www.colt.com/law/lecarbine.asp
There you go. :D
Do you know any way I can find prices for those BCM rifles on that link. I have tired calling the last couple of days and have been unable get threw to anybody.
...223 ammo is not at the same pressure as 5.56 generally... But with .223 being lower pressure to begin with (compared to the) higher pressure 5.56...
The 223 isn't necessarily loaded to lower pressures than the 5.56. 223 ammunition, when fired in a 223 chamber, achieves similar velocities as the 5.56. To do this, as it has the same case capacity, it must achieve similar pressures.
It's difficult to compare pressures between the SAAMI specs for the 223 and the NATO specs for the 5.56. Pressures measurements are taken from different locations (If I recall, SAAMI takes their PSI measurements at the web of the case and NATO takes theirs at the neck). Also, SAAMI & NATO use different inducers.
The biggest difference between the 223 and the 5.56 chambers is the leade. Due to the shorter leade of the 223 chamber, the overall length of the 223 ammunition is shorter than that of the 5.56. When ammunition is fired in a chamber with a longer leade, or if the bullet is seated deeper in the case, pressures and velocities drop. This is why the 223 has lower pressures & velocities when fired in a 5.56 chamber.
5.56 ammunition is unsafe to fire in a 223 chamber because of the shorter leade of that chamber. Pressures reach a higher peak before the bullet gets moving.
If the OAL of 223 ammunition was increased to match the leade of the 5.56 chamber, it would have pressures & velocities similar to that of the 5.56.
Until 223 and 5.56 ammunition is tested in their proper chambers using the same test methods, it cannot be known for certain how the pressures of each compare to one another
bsmith_shoot
05-13-11, 07:10
Do you know any way I can find prices for those BCM rifles on that link. I have tired calling the last couple of days and have been unable get threw to anybody.
Yep, call Grant ( C4IGrant on the forum) at G&R Tactical. He will either have one for you, or can build you a rifle of equal, or higher, quality.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?display=home
Do you know any way I can find prices for those BCM rifles on that link. I have tired calling the last couple of days and have been unable get threw to anybody.
We have the prices and stock several models (including our own version).
C4
just to add that i have run A LOT of silverbear 62gr in a sabre middy and the only problem is that red nail polish-sealant-whatever would collect in the boltface(and everywhere.) this was quikly solved with a wire brush on site, and electric contact cleaner when home.
i have always liked this more than other steel plinking ammo.
Evil1969SS>LS6
05-16-11, 17:35
I had an Escalade that Cadillac told me I needed to put 93 octane through. I ran 87 octane for over 70k miles without an issue.
Utter ignorance, there's actually reason not to run low octane in a high compression engine. Man, you just saved americans thousands and thousands of dollars on premiun gas, society owes you a atta-boy....those company's who sell octane booster are gonna be pissed at you! :p
Utter ignorance, there's actually reason not to run low octane in a high compression engine. Man, you just saved americans thousands and thousands of dollars on premiun gas, society owes you a atta-boy....those company's who sell octane booster are gonna be pissed at you! :p
that is a good analogy. what your management system did was pull timing and run rich. this stopped your motor from knocking and pre-detention. in turn you did not get what you payed for, because of lower HP and less MPG(FWIW i do this in my range rover also). now if i tried this in my tuned turbo cars they may break and always run in limp mode.
so i run the crap in my beater because its good enough. when i spring for the good stuff the fun gun gets to eat it.
IndianaBoy
05-17-11, 12:45
Not one person said they had zero issues, from RRA - to - LWRC. No one was surprised but we all were wondering is there any rifles that do alright with this stuff?
.
I built a rifle around an A1 upper and a 1:9 chrome lined pencil weight barrel from J&T Distributing. It has eaten 2k of wolf without a single stoppage. Carbine length gas system, car buffer, non-M16 carrier.
My only complaint about Wolf is that it is underpowered and at 200 yards, it doesn't group. It patterns.
I haven't shot any wolf for a few years because I stocked up on a bunch of cheap reloading components and I have been shooting brass cased stuff that is accurate and harder hitting for less money than wolf. But I am thinking of picking up a case or two for hoser stages at three gun shoots so I won't have to leave so much brass behind.
I have no complaints with wolf for practicing drills and shooting position practice behind vehicles/walls/barricades.
I have a custom built m4. It HATES steel ammo. Unfortunately, I bought a decent amount thinking I would save some money several months back. Turns out it causes malfunctions of all kinds. I traded a good chunk of it off but now I use it to train.
Since it causes malfunctions about 40% of the time I shoot a steel round, I throw a couple steel rounds (mixed with my brass stuff) in my practice mags. Its a pretty good way to practice malfunction clearing drills.
Steel has its place. ;)
I built a rifle around an A1 upper and a 1:9 chrome lined pencil weight barrel from J&T Distributing. It has eaten 2k of wolf without a single stoppage. Carbine length gas system, car buffer, non-M16 carrier.
My only complaint about Wolf is that it is underpowered and at 200 yards, it doesn't group. It patterns.
I haven't shot any wolf for a few years because I stocked up on a bunch of cheap reloading components and I have been shooting brass cased stuff that is accurate and harder hitting for less money than wolf. But I am thinking of picking up a case or two for hoser stages at three gun shoots so I won't have to leave so much brass behind.
I have no complaints with wolf for practicing drills and shooting position practice behind vehicles/walls/barricades.
I guess that's makes two people. I don't know if people don't read my posts, don't believe me, or just don't care. I am a sample of 6 different rifles that have never- never ever- had a malfunction with steel ammo. Not a stuck case, not a short stroke, no issues at all over thousands of rounds over several years. So I am one person that can say steel works for me. Who knows, maybe I have a magical power over the feed/extraction cycle of a gun and my mere presence causes 100% reliability. Or maybe I've just been really lucky, and selected the six rifles and 15,000 rounds of bear ammo that were specially produced for reliability.
I don't know why we're making such a big deal over this. If you want to shoot steel, and it works for you, blast away. If you despise the very existence of steel cased ammo, and are somehow personally insulted by its presence, don't buy or shoot it. Now can we get back to discussing more important matters like which lube should I use?:D
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