View Full Version : Time for a change?
I've become increasingly frustrated with my ability to print decent groups using my G19 and G17. My definition of "decent" is better than 3" groups at 10 yards (yes, apparently I suck). Before I go further, I don't want this thread to be perceived as an attempt to bash the Glock brand as I fully recognize that the shooter appears to be the problem. In fact, I've let others shoot these firearms only to be schooled on how badly I suck. This includes "lessons" from my wife :eek:
I don't claim to be anything other than a novice pistol shooter and could always use more practice, but I think after several classes and over 4K rounds in these the past year, I feel that should have gotten the hang of it. I should mention that the sole purpose of these firearms is defense and recreation. Do I feel that I can shoot these accurate enough in a typical self-defense situation, i.e., < 5 yds? Probably, but my eroding confidence could be a mitigating factor that I'd like to eliminate. I firmly believe in the concept of the warrior mindset and this is not a variable that I'd like to keep in the equation, if you will.
Further, I'm not keen on ditching the Glocks just yet as I've quite a bit invested in accessories and mags and they're both extremely reliable, but this platform just doesn't seem to be working out as well as I had hoped and has led me to strongly consider other options. I've left both Glock mostly stock having only changed sights and added some stippling. I've refrained from trigger and other upgrades having seen others shoot these so well.
Other pistols I've had experience with have managed far better accuracy compared to the two 9mms. Examples include HKs, Sigs (regularly shoot my wife's P229 with very good accuracy), M&Ps, and many others using various calibers.
Therefore, I'd like some suggestions among the experts as a proper course of action. That is, should I quit my bitching and shoot another 4K+ rounds through these this year while getting more training (and, perhaps more importantly, confidence), or get something else that I can shoot better now and continue practicing and training with that platform. Seems like a no brainer and perhaps I'm over analyzing the obvious, but I'd rather ask you all rather than someone who's more interested in selling me one or more new firearms.
Thanks!
Sounds like you need some "one on one" time doing a lot of ball and dummy drills to get your trigger control ironed out.
Here is a drill I ran with a buddy to expose trigger control issues. If the gun moves, 10 perfect dry-fires.
This is the slow-fire portion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTUv8-O8NrM
This is the accelerated version, once you have the slow fire stuff down: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJEs1YdAgF0
It's not your gun, and ditching it something easier to shoot will only push your trigger control issues under the rug for a short period of time. Save your money and put it towards lessons, and time on the range.
You can do a lot of trigger control work with minimal ammo.
Doc Safari
05-06-11, 16:21
Is your problem trigger control?
I'm a Glock fan, but I hate the trigger. I find I am way more accurate if I'm already pulling the trigger through the first "stage" as the striker tensions the spring while I finish aligning the sights on target, then fire the gun through the second "stage" as soon as the sights are on target.
(I know it's not a two-stage trigger but I'm trying to describe the trigger feel).
Yes, you have to do this slowly for a while, but muscle memory will take over and you will develop speed.
Bottom line is I agree with practice you will learn to shoot that Glock accurately.
CoolBreeze & Doc:
I'm almost certain it is trigger control as the other firearms I mentioned that I shoot better seem, to me at least, to have more predictable triggers. That is, other than the M&P which I seem to shoot quite well.
I do a lot of dry firing/dummy round practice with my rifles to good effect. I should no doubt do more of this with my pistols.
I appreciate the advice.
Doc Safari
05-06-11, 16:39
There is some controversy as to whether a lot of dry firing with a Glock can potentiall cause the breech face to crack. It's aruguable that there are other causes such as poor metallurgy/heat treating, or hot primers/ammo that affect the heat treating of the slide. But whatever the cause the latest sage advice seems to be that if you dry fire a Glock extensively (more than just occasionally), then use snap caps.
jmlshooter
05-06-11, 16:53
I just purchased Paul Howe's "Tac Pistol Operator" DVD.
He puts 5 hits on steel at 80 yards with a Glock 32. They were in about a 7-inch group.
Just practice.
Doc Safari
05-06-11, 16:57
It's also good to remember that Glock is combat accurate, but not necessarily target accurate. I can shoot one hole groups with a single action handgun like a 1911, then I go shoot my Glock in order to feel humble again.
The Glock is as predictable as they get, just have to get used to it.
Lots of dryfire. Close your eyes, focus on the feeling. Take a 3-day weekend to pull it at first. Then speed up only after you are shooting like a pro.
It's also good to remember that Glock is combat accurate, but not necessarily target accurate. I can shoot one hole groups with a single action handgun like a 1911, then I go shoot my Glock in order to feel humble again.
I've shot numerous 3" groups at 25yards with mine. Shot a 6-8" group at 50 yards this weekend. Glocks have a lot more potential for accuracy than some think.
Rosco Benson
05-06-11, 17:31
The Glock trigger is not and will never be a "glass rod breaking" trigger, like is attainable on a 1911. It may be that the OP is a bit sensitive to less-than-ideal triggers. A factory or aftermarket 3.5 pound connector might be a cheap, easy, and reversable potential solution.
Rosco
Doc Safari
05-06-11, 17:37
I've shot numerous 3" groups at 25yards with mine. Shot a 6-8" group at 50 yards this weekend. Glocks have a lot more potential for accuracy than some think.
I've been a believer that the trigger pull hampers the gun's accuracy potential, (not that the gun is inherently mechanically inaccurate). Maybe I just don't practice enough either!
Yes, that was my point. I can shoot my wife's Sig with very good accuracy. However, as CoolBreeze pointed out, that trigger is probably masking my trigger control issues that I'm experiencing with the Glock. Perhaps the bad habit(s) I've developed over the past couple of years is something that I don't fall into when I try other firearms.
Again, ain't nothin' wrong with my Glocks. My finger needs an upgrade, apparently. :)
Lastly, I realize that it's not a 1911 and don't expect that kind of accuracy. I do not think that 3" groups at 25yds is unreasonable though.
I've been a believer that the trigger pull hampers the gun's accuracy potential, (not that the gun is inherently mechanically inaccurate). I know it's anecdotal, but I don't know anyone including myself that shoots a Glock as accurately as a handgun with a better trigger. Maybe I just don't practice enough either!
Just out of curiosity what sights are you using?
Just out of curiosity what sights are you using?
AmeriGlo Hack's on both. Good for my aging eyes, I think, but it has made little difference in my shooting ability.
Have you had any professional training?
I find a 1911 trigger (or other single action triggers) can make up for poor trigger technique. The SA stage on a DA/SA can do the same. I actually found my Glock 17 as accurate as my SA 1911 with match barrel and EGW bushing. In fact a buddy and I just had a range session with his new SA Loaded Gov't model and my box stock G17. He's a real shooter and the Glock was right there just as accurate at all ranges we shot out to 25 yds.
Proper trigger control makes up for the "mushy" trigger. Are you slapping the trigger or feeling for the reset?
I'd get some instruction before I modified the pistol (if you don't already have it).
I've had basic handgun training and general defensive 1 & 2. Looking to repeat the latter in the near future. No 1:1 at this time, but I really want to do some of that this year.
I'm not looking to modify these. I don't think there is anything that needs to be addressed other than the shooter.
As far as slapping goes: maybe not full slapping, but probably squeezing too hard with not enough finesse. It seems the more I shoot my ARs away from bench the less accurate my pistol shooting gets and the more I shoot my rifles from the bench the better the pistol accuracy. That in and of itself leads me to believe it is a trigger control issue.
If you do want to stick with the Glock platform, one thing I might suggest is to shoot at 25 yards with the Glock. It will magnify whatever errors you have and based on where the groups are at, you can diagnose and correct yourself.
While I've developed better accuracy with my Glocks, when I first switched to the platform, I would shoot around 6" groups at 10 yards. I did take a professional class and they taught me the following. I make it a point to shoot at least 10 rounds every session at 25 yards (I'd go farther, but 25yrds is the furthest my range goes to) and concentrate on just perfect sight picture, trigger control, and follow-through. I'm easily capable of 2" groups at 10 yrds now and 3" groups at 25 yrds. I'm by no means an expert with the weapon, but I have definitely improved alot!
Hope that helps!
Coolbreeze's vid of the timer is an invaluable training tool as it pushes you to fine tune your focus on the task at hand. I've personally found the timer my best aid to shoot faster and accurate.
As others have mentioned, the trigger on the Glock will never be a well tuned 1911 or x brand pistol. What I've found is that the experimentation with different trigger spring set up may be conducive to better trigger control. I've personally settled on the 3.5 connector and NY1 spring. Not the lightest, but most consistent for my shooting.
Seek trainers/instructors that will help you push both accuracy and speed. And always, always have a training COF / plan when you shoot. Don't randomly send rounds down range without practicing a particular skill. YMMV.
Guns-up.50
05-06-11, 23:31
i do a drill i saw LAV do it helps with trigger control. Put an empty case on your f/s slowly press the trigger the idea is to not drop the empty case. It really helps with slowing you down and focusing on the trigger. It also helps to have a partner to set the case and re-rack your slide for you. I do this drill with all my pistols, i know its not the same as rounds down range but it is cost effective and a good drill. hope this helps
EzGoingKev
05-07-11, 13:28
I'm a Glock fan, but I hate the trigger.
I never hated my Glock trigger until I installed a Geissele trigger on my AR.
Yes, that was my point. I can shoot my wife's Sig with very good accuracy.
Maybe you and Glock just don't work together?
Slow deliberate fire from the bench tends to involve concentration on the trigger. I think when we stand and start shooting and moving our focus tends to sight more to sight picture.
I agree 100%. When I shoot from a bench rest it feels like I concentrate mostly on trigger pull, breathing, etc. Sometimes it feels like an eternity has gone by to pull the trigger.
When I am standing I spend most of my energy on keeping on target, especially if shooting any type of rapid fire drills.
As others have mentioned...25 yard bullseye work is an good way to track and improve your mastery of the fundamentals.
I would shoot the 200 points from this (ONLY the slow fire stages) and write down your scores. Track them over time in an excel spreadsheet.
http://www.firearmstrainingandtactics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267
If you need to reduce the range at first, reduce it to something like 15 yards until you're getting 90% of your points on each stage, then push it back out to 25 yards and start a new score sheet.
Lots of ball and dummy, lots of hard focus on the fundamentals, just do everything as perfect as possible, as slow as necessary. Fire one shot at a time, then rest....just get used to firing 1 perfect shot before you try to build onto that.
Lots of good replies. I don't have much to add other than the 1:1 training and to say, it is not just you. There are a lot of shooters who struggle with accurcay and handgun shooting. We just don't say much.
I've also found that with anything it is not so much a gradual improvement as eventually one day something "clicks" and you can make big leaps, espeically at the beginning.
One observation---the penny on the front sights or slide is impossible (unless its a flat top glock). Maybe that's the point....
The only thing I would add is that you've been working at this for almost a year now and you don't see any improvement. That has to be frustrating and I think that might be part of your problem. Besides the aforementioned trigger control problem, I think you need to step back and take a breath. Frustration can drive anyone into a rut. Let it go and start fresh with some good instruction and work forward from there. Go back and look at your basics and see if something has faltered along the way. It's just a tool. If you can shoot an M&P or a Sig, you can shoot a Glock.
The only thing I would add is that you've been working at this for almost a year now and you don't see any improvement. That has to be frustrating and I think that might be part of your problem. Besides the aforementioned trigger control problem, I think you need to step back and take a breath. Frustration can drive anyone into a rut. Let it go and start fresh with some good instruction and work forward from there. Go back and look at your basics and see if something has faltered along the way. It's just a tool. If you can shoot an M&P or a Sig, you can shoot a Glock.
Bingo- like many of you, I can be obsessive at times and indeed this is pissing me off. Heck, I woke up sufficently pissed that I was going to shoot 1K rounds downrange today, but the weather was so nice I decided instead to get in a 50 mi bike ride/workout. I really appreciate everyone's suggestions and will try to go back to square one with the basics.
1st make sure that your grip is good, and it gives you a neutral trigger pull, in other words you aren't pushing/pulling the front sight off target as you break the shot. Just do dry fire every day for 20 min or so, or longer. Don't even use live ammo until you can keep that front sight dead steady while you are braking the dry fire "shot". Look up the "wall drill", it is a dry fire drill and when you get good at that and your front sight doesn't move AT ALL, then go to the range and shoot live ammo. With live ammo, keep focus on the front sight and follow through, don't look at the target until the gun is dry. Once you can get that down, then it is time to leave bullseye shooting and start rapid fire which is a different proposition, but bullseye will have taught you sight and trigger control which is absolutely fundamental.
Good Luck!
http://pistol-training.com/archives/118
Bingo- like many of you, I can be obsessive at times and indeed this is pissing me off. Heck, I woke up sufficently pissed that I was going to shoot 1K rounds downrange today, but the weather was so nice I decided instead to get in a 50 mi bike ride/workout. I really appreciate everyone's suggestions and will try to go back to square one with the basics.
I don't know ANYONE that can burn 1k in a day and keep their fundamentals solid.
I was burnt out and flinchy after about 275 rounds of .45ACP 230gr ball through a 5" steel 1911, and ~450-500 of 9mm through a G19 (in 1 day).
When you get tired and start flinching, it's time to pack it in and come back later. Every round you fire after that point is just reinforcing a flinch, and wiping away the good habits you're building.
I have nothing but praise for guys who pack up at the range with ammo left in the box. They know their limits, aren't there to "prove something" and are on the right path to getting better as a shooter.
It's all about QUALITY, not quantity.
I've learned more about trigger control from 9am to 12am on day 1 of an LAV class (where we maybe fired 100 rounds...and 300+ dry fires) than I have any other time.
The fundamentals aren't always as sexy as magazine dumps and screaming at each other on the range...but they're the most important thing a shooter can learn (other than safe gun-handling).
Yes, that was my point. I can shoot my wife's Sig with very good accuracy. However, as CoolBreeze pointed out, that trigger is probably masking my trigger control issues that I'm experiencing with the Glock. Perhaps the bad habit(s) I've developed over the past couple of years is something that I don't fall into when I try other firearms.
Again, ain't nothin' wrong with my Glocks. My finger needs an upgrade, apparently. :)
.
gfelber,
I have been in the same boat. I use Glocks, esp the G19 for over 10 years and for me, I just don't know if I have my own trigger issues. Instead of being more patient and trying these great suggestions from this thread, i took the cowards way and just bought an HK P30 since I loved the feel and the SA/DA. Once I tried the SA/DA on an one I was sold cause my shooting improved. However, Glock is still to me, so far, the most reliable, combat handgun ever...but hoping the HK will be my new everything gun. It was the SA mode on the guns that I shot lately that helped me improve..just my personal experience...
gfelber,
I have been in the same boat. I use Glocks, esp the G19 for over 10 years and for me, I just don't know if I have my own trigger issues. Instead of being more patient and trying these great suggestions from this thread, i took the cowards way and just bought an HK P30 since I loved the feel and the SA/DA. Once I tried the SA/DA on an one I was sold cause my shooting improved. However, Glock is still to me, so far, the most reliable, combat handgun ever...but hoping the HK will be my new everything gun. It was the SA mode on the guns that I shot lately that helped me improve..just my personal experience...
HK makes really nice weapons. Go to pistol training and read Todd G's test of the P30. His gun has over 100,000 rounds shot through it and it's still reliable.
Glock is not the end all be all of handguns. A good one will run like wild dogs in heat for sure, but so will a good Sig P226 or HK P30 or a well tuned 1911 etc.
HK makes really nice weapons. Go to pistol training and read Todd G's test of the P30. His gun has over 100,000 rounds shot through it and it's still reliable.
Glock is not the end all be all of handguns. A good one will run like wild dogs in heat for sure, but so will a good Sig P226 or HK P30 or a well tuned 1911 etc.
I will def go check that out. I heard the HK P30 is a work horse, so I can't wait to take it to the range soon...and yes, the Sig rocks too...i had a 229
Regarding trigger control, I was looking at some targets from the past several trips to the range and noticed an appreciably consistent pattern. When I'm not on target, I am consitently shooting either to the left and low, say 7 o'clock or to the right at 3 o'clock. Would I be correct in assuming that I am either: a. slapping the trigger or b. squeezing too tightly?
I shoot right handed, BTW.
I don't know ANYONE that can burn 1k in a day and keep their fundamentals solid.
I was burnt out and flinchy after about 275 rounds of .45ACP 230gr ball through a 5" steel 1911, and ~450-500 of 9mm through a G19 (in 1 day).
When you get tired and start flinching, it's time to pack it in and come back later. Every round you fire after that point is just reinforcing a flinch, and wiping away the good habits you're building.
I have nothing but praise for guys who pack up at the range with ammo left in the box. They know their limits, aren't there to "prove something" and are on the right path to getting better as a shooter.
It's all about QUALITY, not quantity.
I've learned more about trigger control from 9am to 12am on day 1 of an LAV class (where we maybe fired 100 rounds...and 300+ dry fires) than I have any other time.
The fundamentals aren't always as sexy as magazine dumps and screaming at each other on the range...but they're the most important thing a shooter can learn (other than safe gun-handling).
I know, the 1K a day thing is simply me getting pissed off. :mad:
I fully appreciate your point. In fact, I think I'm going to go to the range today and practice lots of dry firing with minimal live ammo. I'm only bringing four loaded mags, lots of snap caps and my G17. Yes, I'll have someone reload these "randomly" with the caps while I'm not looking.
Regarding trigger control, I was looking at some targets from the past several trips to the range and noticed an appreciably consistent pattern. When I'm not on target, I am consitently shooting either to the left and low, say 7 o'clock or to the right at 3 o'clock. Would I be correct in assuming that I am either: a. slapping the trigger or b. squeezing too tightly?
I shoot right handed, BTW.
On a right handed shooter, 7 o'clock hits can be jerking the trigger, milking the grip (squeezing the hand instead of just the trigger finger), or even having finger bicep issues. Finger bicep is where your trigger finger rests on the frame and puts pressure on the frame as you press the trigger. That pushes shots to the left for a right handed shooter.
3 o'clock hits can be using too little finger (just the tip) on the trigger.
Where exactly do you put your finger on the trigger. The tip? Middle of the pad? First joint?
Do the dry fire quarter drill. Do the ball and dummy live fire drill. Make sure that you are getting good follow though, ie. final sight picture. All these things will help you learn the Glock trigger and how to manage it.
Gringop
Beat Trash
05-08-11, 14:15
Regarding trigger control, I was looking at some targets from the past several trips to the range and noticed an appreciably consistent pattern. When I'm not on target, I am consitently shooting either to the left and low, say 7 o'clock or to the right at 3 o'clock. Would I be correct in assuming that I am either: a. slapping the trigger or b. squeezing too tightly?
I shoot right handed, BTW.
You have a trigger control issue. Right handed shooters jerking, tend to go low and left.
Unload your gun and start to dry fire. Humor me and move all ammunition to another room. Double check to ensure the gun is unloaded. Use a target, and go through all the motions as if you were using live ammunition.
Pay attention to the movement of your trigger finger. It needs to go straight back. If you bend your finger at the joint that connects the finger to the hand, notice how the tip of your finger goes to the left? Make sure you don't bend there.
Pay attention to where your finger touches the trigger. Too much finger on the trigger will push the front of your gun left. Too little can push it to the right. The ideal position is with the pad of the finger, between the tip and the first joint.
You don't pull the trigger, you press it. Slow and steady increase of trigger press until the sear trips. You should be surprised when your hear your gun go "Click".
Practice dry firing at a specific target, working on the basics. Focus on your front sight, your breathing, your trigger press. Dry fire until the front sight doesn't move once the sear trips.
Go to the range at that time and work with some live ammunition. Keep up the dry firing practice though. I think you'll start to see some improvement.
FYI, a 9mm Glock is more than capable of 3" groups at 25 yds.
You have a trigger control issue. Right handed shooters jerking, tend to go low and left.
Unload your gun and start to dry fire. Humor me and move all ammunition to another room. Double check to ensure the gun is unloaded. Use a target, and go through all the motions as if you were using live ammunition.
Pay attention to the movement of your trigger finger. It needs to go straight back. If you bend your finger at the joint that connects the finger to the hand, notice how the tip of your finger goes to the left? Make sure you don't bend there.
Pay attention to where your finger touches the trigger. Too much finger on the trigger will push the front of your gun left. Too little can push it to the right. The ideal position is with the pad of the finger, between the tip and the first joint.
You don't pull the trigger, you press it. Slow and steady increase of trigger press until the sear trips. You should be surprised when your hear your gun go "Click".
Practice dry firing at a specific target, working on the basics. Focus on your front sight, your breathing, your trigger press. Dry fire until the front sight doesn't move once the sear trips.
Go to the range at that time and work with some live ammunition. Keep up the dry firing practice though. I think you'll start to see some improvement.
FYI, a 9mm Glock is more than capable of 3" groups at 25 yds.
The bolded is a bit of a misnomer.
This weekend Kyle Defoor encouraged the class to use the joint, rather than the pad. A buddy at a Paul Howe instructor class had Paul encourage the class to go past the first pad on their AR's. Larry Vickers looked at my hands and told me to keep using the joint and not the pad, etc.
All that matters is that the trigger gets to the rear without being pushed to one side or the other.
As for all of this "milking, squeezing with your hand, too much finger, not enough finger, heeling, etc"...NONE of that is conscious action.
Before you can "fix" you problems, you need to observe what's happening, IE:read your sights!
If you notice the front sight going one way or another...then experiment with your grip and trigger finger (movement and placement) until your sights stay motionless through the break.
If you walked up to a shooter who was heeling the gun, and said "stop heeling the gun" they'd probably say "I'm not". Most people will need to see how they're doing it wrong before they can go about correcting it.
HK makes really nice weapons. Go to pistol training and read Todd G's test of the P30. His gun has over 100,000 rounds shot through it and it's still reliable.
Glock is not the end all be all of handguns. A good one will run like wild dogs in heat for sure, but so will a good Sig P226 or HK P30 or a well tuned 1911 etc.
They do! Don't want to derail my thread, but here's my play time toy in 45 ACP:
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/Dr_Wolfenstein/Handguns/DSCN0605_3.jpg
The bolded is a bit of a misnomer.
This weekend Kyle Defoor encouraged the class to use the joint, rather than the pad. A buddy at a Paul Howe instructor class had Paul encourage the class to go past the first pad on their AR's. Larry Vickers looked at my hands and told me to keep using the joint and not the pad, etc.
All that matters is that the trigger gets to the rear without being pushed to one side or the other.
As for all of this "milking, squeezing with your hand, too much finger, not enough finger, heeling, etc"...NONE of that is conscious action.
Before you can "fix" you problems, you need to observe what's happening, IE:read your sights!
If you notice the front sight going one way or another...then experiment with your grip and trigger finger (movement and placement) until your sights stay motionless through the break.
If you walked up to a shooter who was heeling the gun, and said "stop heeling the gun" they'd probably say "I'm not". Most people will need to see how they're doing it wrong before they can go about correcting it.
I typically use the pad of my finger with pistols. The angle varies depending on what I'm shooting, of course. On my AR's with stock triggers, I tend to use the first joint, but the pad, or even the tip on the Geiselles and my bolt actions for precision work. Probably not the best way, but it seems to work for me among the long guns.
I was just doing some dry firing with the Glocks, Sig and HK. For whatever reason the front sights on the Glocks seems to be movng more- even compared to pulls on the DA pistols. So it's more dry firing for me, I guess. :)
The bolded is a bit of a misnomer.
This weekend Kyle Defoor encouraged the class to use the joint, rather than the pad. A buddy at a Paul Howe instructor class had Paul encourage the class to go past the first pad on their AR's. Larry Vickers looked at my hands and told me to keep using the joint and not the pad, etc.
WOW!!!
2 years ago when I found my "zone" with a Glock, I was shooting with the joint on the trigger. I had always been taught to "place the center of the distal pad on the trigger".
I was frustrated with the Glock trigger and grabbed the damn thing and shot it like I hated it. With the joint of my finger on the trigger. It shot like a lazer.
Glocks are just hard to shoot. They have a 6lb trigger slappin up against a sub 2lb gun.
I was just doing some dry firing with the Glocks...the front sights on the Glocks seems to be movng more... So it's more dry firing for me, I guess. :)
I do the same thing. I'll sit around and dry fire a Glock and watch it shake until it pisses me off. Then I'll go grab a 1911 and think "this is how it's supposed to be".
But in practical accuracy, I'm just as good with a Glock and faster for sure.
TO the OP,
Hey Man - noticed from the names of the courses that you've taken and the location in your profile that you may be in the Seattle area. If so, I'm happy to meet up with you and give you an extra set of eyes. I've been instructing for a lot of years and have been pretty successful helping people solve their issues. PM me on the board and lets discuss.
Damien
I do the same thing. I'll sit around and dry fire a Glock and watch it shake until it pisses me off. Then I'll go grab a 1911 and think "this is how it's supposed to be".
When I slowly press a Glock trigger hoping for a surprise break like I would with a 1911 or a DA revolver, I group about 5" at 15 yards. Using a quicker compressed trigger stroke will have all shots nearly touching.
Okie John
Thanks for the offer! PM'd ya!
TO the OP,
Hey Man - noticed from the names of the courses that you've taken and the location in your profile that you may be in the Seattle area. If so, I'm happy to meet up with you and give you an extra set of eyes. I've been instructing for a lot of years and have been pretty successful helping people solve their issues. PM me on the board and lets discuss.
Damien
I've had basic handgun training and general defensive 1 & 2. Looking to repeat the latter in the near future. No 1:1 at this time, but I really want to do some of that this year.
Very few instructors actually teach accuracy. Take a class from one of the two masters (Vickers and Hackathorn). This will help your accuracy greatly.
C4
lifebreath
05-10-11, 13:10
I like centering the pad of the finger when using light crisp triggers with short pull SA, like a 1911 or a revolver on SA. I like positioning the trigger past the pad closer to or at the first joint when shooting DA. I think this also works better with a Glock, since the trigger feels more like a DA.
Very few instructors actually teach accuracy. Take a class from one of the two masters (Vickers and Hackathorn). This will help your accuracy greatly.
C4
Thanks Grant. I plan to do so when time permits.
Based on my limited experience, I agree. It seems that, with the basic and mid-level courses, instructors are too busy trying to get their students to understnad how their setup works, clearing jams, drawing from holsters, etc. rather than focusing on where the lead is going.
Thanks Grant. I plan to do so when time permits.
Based on my limited experience, I agree. It seems that, with the basic and mid-level courses, instructors are too busy trying to get their students to understnad how their setup works, clearing jams, drawing from holsters, etc. rather than focusing on where the lead is going.
IMHO, too many instructors are teaching "man camp." It is great to shoot under cars and all other kinds of HSLD chit, but at the end of the day it is WORTHLESS teaching tactics if the students cannot hit what they are aiming at.
C4
IMHO, too many instructors are teaching "man camp." It is great to shoot under cars and all other kinds of HSLD chit, but at the end of the day it is WORTHLESS teaching tactics if the students cannot hit what they are aiming at.
C4
That's what killing me--I'm really reluctant to pull the trigger (no pun intended) on a training class with an unknown instructor and the recommended instructors are a long distance away or their classes nearby are full almost immediately. Can't figure out why no one wants to come to TX/OK/AR/LA but 1 time per year if that. I know I'm waitlisted for a 1911 class with Vickers, not that the 1911 would be my choice, but its better than nothing.
If you want a huge short circuit in your training and you want to curb your frustration, find a Larry Vickers Basic pistol class and sign up. Hackathorn also, but as i understand, he does not offer a basic class, starting with intermediate. If LAV is not close to you and there is any way you can do it, drive or fly. You will be glad you did. It doesn't matter what level of shooter you think you are, you even will find advanced shooters in these classes just of what they get from reworking the basics. You will learn about trigger control that you would likely never learn by yourself. You will learn about sight wobble and why it's OK, why it's a mental thing to accommodate not a physical one to overcome. You will be able to come away with the ability to practice and improve on your own. You will know why you are shooting off center and what to do about it - it won't make you perfect right off, but it will take you instantly to a higher level and give you confidence that it can be done. You will learn to "own" every bullet that leaves the muzzle. You will learn that accuracy always trumps speed. You will learn.
PrivateCitizen
05-11-11, 12:06
You mentioned 'aging eyes'
Are you confident your prescription is current? It may seem trivial but if you are using correctives that are not dialed-in your target perception may suffer.
My actual vision is OK but my astigmatism wrecks havoc. I just got a new set of contacts that address it directly (new type of lens).
The 25yd shooting might magnify this … among the other things mentioned.
My vision isn't 20/20 any longer and wear 1X glasses for reading only (farsighted). I also have some limitations in lower-light situations and the Hackathorn setup does appear to work better than the stock Glock sights. However, I don't think my eyesight is the problem given the accuracy I can acheive with other firearms.
That's what killing me--I'm really reluctant to pull the trigger (no pun intended) on a training class with an unknown instructor and the recommended instructors are a long distance away or their classes nearby are full almost immediately. Can't figure out why no one wants to come to TX/OK/AR/LA but 1 time per year if that. I know I'm waitlisted for a 1911 class with Vickers, not that the 1911 would be my choice, but its better than nothing.
Understand. Sometimes you can find cheap flights to where they are teaching.
Hackathorn has an advanced pistol class and HD coming up in Ohio. You could fly into Canton/Akron Airport and I might be convinced to pick you up and drive you to the class. ;)
The Vickers VSM instructors are out there and some will come out your way (if you get enough students together). I will be in MT in July if that helps. :)
C4
1)Hackathorn has an advanced pistol class and HD coming up in Ohio. You could fly into Canton/Akron Airport and I might be convinced to pick you up and drive you to the class. ;)
2)The Vickers VSM instructors are out there and some will come out your way (if you get enough students together).
3)I will be in MT in July if that helps. :)
C4
You should do one of these. Great suggestions and what an opportunity from C4IGrant (#1 above) for a serious student! #2 above is a good way to go also. Go for it! :)
Understand. Sometimes you can find cheap flights to where they are teaching.
Hackathorn has an advanced pistol class and HD coming up in Ohio. You could fly into Canton/Akron Airport and I might be convinced to pick you up and drive you to the class. ;)
The Vickers VSM instructors are out there and some will come out your way (if you get enough students together). I will be in MT in July if that helps. :)
C4
Not sure if this was intended for me or TXBob. At any rate, I travel extensively for work, typically 2-3 days per week, and have difficulty finding time to attend these courses. For example, I'll be in Las Vegas the entire week of June 13th. Summers are a "bit" better. Who is going to be in MT in July? I've only one trip on the books (Germany) to date that month.
GLOCKMASTER
05-11-11, 18:48
IMHO, too many instructors are teaching "man camp." It is great to shoot under cars and all other kinds of HSLD chit, but at the end of the day it is WORTHLESS teaching tactics if the students cannot hit what they are aiming at.
C4
That's why the best of those instructors that teach the HSLD chit have strict prerequisites for their HSLD classes. Also the best of those that teach it work up to the HSLD with marksmanship drills to see what the students can handle.
GLOCKMASTER
05-11-11, 19:05
I've become increasingly frustrated with my ability to print decent groups using my G19 and G17. My definition of "decent" is better than 3" groups at 10 yards (yes, apparently I suck). Before I go further, I don't want this thread to be perceived as an attempt to bash the Glock brand as I fully recognize that the shooter appears to be the problem. In fact, I've let others shoot these firearms only to be schooled on how badly I suck. This includes "lessons" from my wife :eek:
I don't claim to be anything other than a novice pistol shooter and could always use more practice, but I think after several classes and over 4K rounds in these the past year, I feel that should have gotten the hang of it. I should mention that the sole purpose of these firearms is defense and recreation. Do I feel that I can shoot these accurate enough in a typical self-defense situation, i.e., < 5 yds? Probably, but my eroding confidence could be a mitigating factor that I'd like to eliminate. I firmly believe in the concept of the warrior mindset and this is not a variable that I'd like to keep in the equation, if you will.
Further, I'm not keen on ditching the Glocks just yet as I've quite a bit invested in accessories and mags and they're both extremely reliable, but this platform just doesn't seem to be working out as well as I had hoped and has led me to strongly consider other options. I've left both Glock mostly stock having only changed sights and added some stippling. I've refrained from trigger and other upgrades having seen others shoot these so well.
Other pistols I've had experience with have managed far better accuracy compared to the two 9mms. Examples include HKs, Sigs (regularly shoot my wife's P229 with very good accuracy), M&Ps, and many others using various calibers.
Therefore, I'd like some suggestions among the experts as a proper course of action. That is, should I quit my bitching and shoot another 4K+ rounds through these this year while getting more training (and, perhaps more importantly, confidence), or get something else that I can shoot better now and continue practicing and training with that platform. Seems like a no brainer and perhaps I'm over analyzing the obvious, but I'd rather ask you all rather than someone who's more interested in selling me one or more new firearms.
Thanks!
Take a look at TigerSwan.They also offer some of the best handgun marksmanship training on the market.
TigerSwan Classes (https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=190)
Hogsgunwild
05-11-11, 22:39
Take a look at TigerSwan.They also offer some of the best handgun marksmanship training on the market.
TigerSwan Classes (https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=190)
+1. What a great value. These dudes are the real deal.
The response to this thread has been overwhelming - Thanks all!
I might have to use some vacation time for training. This is probably not a bad idea as I can totally immerse myself in the subject matter and completely forget about work. That's what vacations are for, right?
Thanks to Damien as well for willing to offer some 1:1 training. I'll certainly take you up on your offer.
If, rather, when I sort the Glocks out I'll provide an update.
Regards,
Gene
PS- One of my Glocks is now resting next to my computer when I'm working at home so I can practice dry firing during breaks.
Not sure if this was intended for me or TXBob. At any rate, I travel extensively for work, typically 2-3 days per week, and have difficulty finding time to attend these courses. For example, I'll be in Las Vegas the entire week of June 13th. Summers are a "bit" better. Who is going to be in MT in July? I've only one trip on the books (Germany) to date that month.
I am going to be in MT in July.
C4
That's why the best of those instructors that teach the HSLD chit have strict prerequisites for their HSLD classes. Also the best of those that teach it work up to the HSLD with marksmanship drills to see what the students can handle.
Agree. Many do not though.
C4
The response to this thread has been overwhelming - Thanks all!
I might have to use some vacation time for training. This is probably not a bad idea as I can totally immerse myself in the subject matter and completely forget about work. That's what vacations are for, right?
Thanks to Damien as well for willing to offer some 1:1 training. I'll certainly take you up on your offer.
If, rather, when I sort the Glocks out I'll provide an update.
Regards,
Gene
PS- One of my Glocks is now resting next to my computer when I'm working at home so I can practice dry firing during breaks.
When I first got into training, I used ALL of my 3 weeks of vacation a year to attend training schools. ;)
C4
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