View Full Version : I'm boycotting Premier Reticles
Read the full story here:
http://www.primalrights.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2947
Scott at Liberty Optics has been a solid individual in this industry for many years. He takes care of people. Premier is price fixing, and calling it MAP. Well, now people can see it for what it is.
I own three premiers, and today I'm ashamed to admit it.
Reagans Rascals
05-07-11, 05:48
I am confused... why would ATI even care what another company sells it for, the dealer is given a wholesale price and then sells it on their end to make profit... so if ATI was already paid by the dealer... the price they were selling them to customers is irrelevant.
Its essentially the same as if I went and bought one myself, and then sold it to my friend... I can sell it for whatever I like... if the dealer so chooses to sell it for less than they paid, or for less of a profit margin then so be it... that sounds like a sh#tbag company
Racketeering
Littlelebowski
05-07-11, 06:09
Scott Berish is a good man and I will spread this.
Isn't that essentially what companies like aimpoint have also done? "Price fixing" or MAP is the reason why some dealers have gone around it by offering a QD mount with it instead of the stock mount for very little above retail of the optic alone. It sounds like Premier when beyond that though and back-stabbed a solid dealer without warning.
eternal24k
05-07-11, 07:21
wow, that is really unfortunate
Read the full story here:
http://www.primalrights.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2947
Scott at Liberty Optics has been a solid individual in this industry for many years. He takes care of people. Premier is price fixing, and calling it MAP. Well, now people can see it for what it is.
I own three premiers, and today I'm ashamed to admit it.
A LOT of companies in the firearms business have MAP pricing. The idea behind it is to allow smaller "mom and pop" stores to be able to compete with the larger retailers like Midway, Brownells, Cabela's, etc that have much larger buying power and get better dealer prices than smaller business by capping how low they can go.
Wow... That's Price Fixing.
I would never deal with a company that does business like that.
SeriousStudent
05-07-11, 10:09
Sounds like it's time to buy a Schmidt & Bender from Scott.
Robb Jensen
05-07-11, 10:50
For clarification for those that don't understand MAP.
MAP = Minimum ADVERTISED Price.
This doesn't mean a dealer can't sell it for less only that the dealer can't ADVERTISE it for less.
I'm no business expert, and maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see much pricing variance on Surefire and other brands. Maybe this is somewhat common on many higher end brands?
It not so much the MAP in the case...but how they went about enforcing their particular MAP in Scott's particular case which was SHITTY as hell and low rent imho.
lifebreath
05-07-11, 11:32
Google it It's called vertical price maintenance. It's designed to do two things: maintain established profit margins and to maintain a level playing field for all the distributors. It's written into the distribution contract and if terms of the contract are breached the distributorship gets yanked. Rolex has historically been a prime example of very strict enforcement of such agreements.
The courts' view of the practice has swung back and forth through the years. Currently the courts have ruled favorably toward the practice.
Regarding this case, If I were Liberty Optics, I'd be very cautious about airing dirty laundry on Internet forums. It could easily be construed as legally libelous and damaging in favor of ATI. Given ATI's aggressive approach, I would guess they might be quick to litigate.
MAP = Minimum ADVERTISED Price.
This doesn't mean a dealer can't sell it for less only that the dealer can't ADVERTISE it for less.
If only more understood this very simple concept. I will no longer support ANY brand that is using these bullshit practices to artificially increase the price of their products. Whether it be premier or anyone else.
Lifebreath, people understand all too well what the practice is. Doesn't mean its in tune with what most of us think American values represent. The only thing it does is ensure that us, the customers, pay more for something that should and WOULD cost less. If you want to champion that argument, go ahead. I'm in Scott's corner 100%. Premier shit the bed with this one, and I'm going to make sure every single shooter I encounter knows about it.
... and Scott can't be sued for sharing the FACTS. Libel is if something isn't true. This is a documented instance of ACTUAL events backed up by evidence. So they can TRY to sue all they want, it's baseless on its face.
Alaskapopo
05-07-11, 15:21
Read the full story here:
http://www.primalrights.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2947
Scott at Liberty Optics has been a solid individual in this industry for many years. He takes care of people. Premier is price fixing, and calling it MAP. Well, now people can see it for what it is.
I own three premiers, and today I'm ashamed to admit it.
Ok I read your link. So a company has a MAP pricing policy and they sent out someone to make sure their dealers were following the agreement by doing a sting operation. The dealer got caught and his ability to sell for that company was pulled because he violated the agreement. I don't see a problem. I have no dog in this race just posting what I observed.
Pat
Alaskapopo, Do you understand what MAP stands for?
Do you understand that no where in his agreements he had with ATI did it say he must sell at or above MAP?
Even if what you are saying were the case, it would seem a moot point to most Americans. Artificially inflated prices due to companies riding roughshot over dealer networks is NOT good ethics in my opinion. Scott's ethics have been proven sound over many years. Premier, on the other hand, has been the center of much confusion and drama regarding their business practices. This, would be the straw that broke the camels back.
I respect your opinion, but I do take comfort in knowing that mine is in the majority.
Ok I read your link. So a company has a MAP pricing policy and they sent out someone to make sure their dealers were following the agreement by doing a sting operation. The dealer got caught and his ability to sell for that company was pulled because he violated the agreement. I don't see a problem. I have no dog in this race just posting what I observed.
Pat
For clarification for those that don't understand MAP.
MAP = Minimum ADVERTISED Price.
This doesn't mean a dealer can't sell it for less only that the dealer can't ADVERTISE it for less.
.....
ChetPunisher
05-07-11, 16:16
From what I understand about the story is that the sting guy called Scott and asked for a discount. He did not see a lower than MAP price displayed. He actually called the dealer and asked for a discount. Then turned around and contacted Premier and reported him as selling below MAP... Read the whole story.
Alaskapopo
05-07-11, 16:21
From what I understand about the story is that the sting guy called Scott and asked for a discount. He did not see a lower than MAP price displayed. He actually called the dealer and asked for a discount. Then turned around and contacted Premier and reported him as selling below MAP... Read the whole story.
I did read the whole story. My point is any company can chose who they allow to be their distrubuters and retailers. It may not seem fair but it is what it is. If Premier did not like what a distrubuter does they have every right to not do buisness with them. If I am selling widgits and I don't like the fact you took the widgits I sold you and sold them for less than what I want them priced at I can stop selling you any more widgits if I so chose. Just as the OP can boycott Premier its his choice and in the end of the day its just buisness.
Pat
ChetPunisher
05-07-11, 16:22
and he has every right to make it public.
end of the day its just buisness.
Pat
That's right, it's just business, and this thread is to shine light on what I (and most others) view to be bad business. No ethical person or company where money was not the soul motivation would do what premier and ati have done.
I've read countless threads about this on other forums and it makes me feel proud that 99% of the people are with Scott on this. It gives me a little bit of hope for our country that some people still know what ethics mean.
Not sure if it's the same "MAP" program, but Nightforce does the same thing. And I understand it to be the actual selling price, not the "advertised" price. A contract is a contract. Otherwise I guess the Wallymarts and Amazons would put all the smaller, service orientated dealers out of business.
Alaskapopo, Do you understand what MAP stands for?
Do you understand that no where in his agreements he had with ATI did it say he must sell at or above MAP?
Even if what you are saying were the case, it would seem a moot point to most Americans. Artificially inflated prices due to companies riding roughshot over dealer networks is NOT good ethics in my opinion. Scott's ethics have been proven sound over many years. Premier, on the other hand, has been the center of much confusion and drama regarding their business practices. This, would be the straw that broke the camels back.
I respect your opinion, but I do take comfort in knowing that mine is in the majority.
Seriously? So as long as you get product X at the price YOU want, everyone else in the retail chain can just **** off? Why don't you strike out and run successful a business for a few years then come back and lecture the world on economics. I am certain you are one of those types, when in the market for a product, comes to this forum among many, and posts a thread that starts like this...
Who has X for the cheapest?
As for majorities, its is possible to a have majority of idiots...
If only more understood this very simple concept. I will no longer support ANY brand that is using these bullshit practices to artificially increase the price of their products. Whether it be premier or anyone else.
Lifebreath, people understand all too well what the practice is. Doesn't mean its in tune with what most of us think American values represent. The only thing it does is ensure that us, the customers, pay more for something that should and WOULD cost less. If you want to champion that argument, go ahead. I'm in Scott's corner 100%. Premier shit the bed with this one, and I'm going to make sure every single shooter I encounter knows about it.
... and Scott can't be sued for sharing the FACTS. Libel is if something isn't true. This is a documented instance of ACTUAL events backed up by evidence. So they can TRY to sue all they want, it's baseless on its face.
As someone who has worked in corporate arenas for a while, it's not about who is right or who is wrong, it's about who can make the other backdown with the threat of massive legal fees. Scott is an individual, and unless he's very wealthy, he could be in a lot of trouble.
Seriously? So as long as you get product X at the price YOU want, everyone else in the retail chain can just **** off? Why don't you strike out and run successful a business for a few years then come back and lecture the world on economics. I am certain you are one of those types, when in the market for a product, comes to this forum among many, and posts a thread that starts like this...
Who has X for the cheapest?
As for majorities, its is possible to a have majority of idiots...
1) I own, and have run 2 successful businesses for the last 7 years. (think I can afford 3 premier's on a mcdonalds salary?)
2) I'm loyal to people that show integrity in bad circumstances. Scott has repeatably displayed this characteristic as long as I've known him.
3) For you to make personal attacks on me, is laughable.
Care to comment about anything regarding the topic at hand?
Can a mod come in here and delete the posts of everyone who doesn't understand MAP? Seriously. This is ridiculous. We've got morons who writing walls of text because they think that companies can enforce whatever they want without understanding that the legalities of doing so in the first place.
MAP ONLY applies to advertised price. Applying it to the actual sales price is absolutely, 100% illegal - it's called "price fixing."
1) I own, and have run 2 successful businesses for the last 7 years. (think I can afford 3 premier's on a mcdonalds salary?)
2) I'm loyal to people that show integrity in bad circumstances. Scott has repeatably displayed this characteristic as long as I've known him.
3) For you to make personal attacks on me, is laughable.
Care to comment about anything regarding the topic at hand?
Certainly...
I do not know Scott and I certainly hope his business is successful. I do know he should have been charging full retail for the optics and he wouldn't be in the position he is in. The fact that he wasn't charging full retail proves he might not understand the first law of retail economics, price elasticity of demand. If he had a firm understanding of PED, he would have know that discount retailing leads nowhere fast (and he proved it). Please do not confuse discount retailing with competitive pricing.
At a given time, there is a finite number of people interested in a given product. Reducing the price of the product will NOT increase the number of units sold. It will decrease profit margin on that unit because he has only made it more attractive to someone who would have bought it anyway.
PED is an indisputable fact. Demand is inelastic, period. A full retail business model will ALWAYS be more successful than its discount brother...
Can a mod come in here and delete the posts of everyone who doesn't understand MAP? Seriously. This is ridiculous. We've got morons who writing walls of text because they think that companies can enforce whatever they want without understanding that the legalities of doing so in the first place.
MAP ONLY applies to advertised price. Applying it to the actual sales price is absolutely, 100% illegal - it's called "price fixing."
You are wrong. Price fixing can ONLY occur between participants in the same market. A manufacturer/importer/distributor can't price fix against itself.
ChetPunisher
05-07-11, 19:58
You better call WalMart, Amazon, and all the other chains that sell things at a lower then MSRP. Seriously, sell them at list price??? Are you actually serious? What company do you work for? You mean you don't cut the cost of your product to make sales? I work in the printing industry and our profit margin is like 1-1 1/2 %.
Robb Jensen
05-07-11, 20:05
CLOSED because the vast majority haven't even looked up what MAP is.
Hell we could be arguing that H20 is dangerous and some asshats would be posting hating H20!
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