View Full Version : Getting an FFL
- Not sure where to post this, figured this was the place, if not, let me know please. -
So my local FFL has decided to up his fees to $50 for transfers from other FFL's and $100 for transfers from Private Individuals.... Crock of shit if you ask me.
I've been toying with the idea of possible getting my own FFL for about a year or so now. But I've got some questions.
- Should I use my home address as my place of business?
- Been told that any firearms in the building, even personal ones have to be cataloged/registered? (Cataloged, possibly, but registered? Really?)
- I know the ATF can do an "inspection" anytime it wishes, but the likely hood of that is slim unless something shady happens or a gun you sold is used in a crime.
- Anything else I need to know?
I believe the ATF also requires FFL holders to own a safe that holds all firearms in their possesion.
I've looked into this briefly aswell, and i'm still intrested in the idea....
good luck.
State laws will trip you up more than ATF depending on area. Also local zoning ordinances etc.
Start by ordering the FFL Application Packet from ATF.
Most of what you read on the Internet is wrong.
Robb Jensen
05-07-11, 08:45
To obtain an FFL you'll have to be sure that wherever you plan to have it addressed is zoned properly. Meaning 'business', 'agriculture' etc. Many times if it's 'residential only' (per state/local laws) ATF will not approve of the FFL. Hours of business have to be posted etc.
Personally I would never obtain a business FFL in my place of residence. ATF can do surprise compliance inspections whenever they want I prefer to keep my residence and business seperate. Having an FFL is about 100x more work than most people can think of. 4473's must be maintained as long as you have an FFL. If a customer buys/transfers more than one handgun per business week you have to send in a Form 3310 on that customer. Quarterly you have to send in to ATF records of all used guns which have come through your FFL. You'll get 'trace' requests that have to be completed within 24hrs. I highly recommend the ARS point-of-sale software system which keeps the 'bound book' electronic and must easier to use than flipping through pages of the bound book for purposes of trace requests etc. Firearms do have to be logged in the bound book if they are going to be there beyond the end of the business day in which they are received.
I'd highly suggest just finding another FFL to do transfers for you if you don't like paying your dealers transfer fees.
We stopped taking transfers from individuals because about 40% of the time people would send us firearms that were HIGHLY misrepresented to their buyers, some people were sending illegal firearms (unregistered SBRs, SBSs) including firearms which weren't 922r compliant and these were all forfeited to ATF.
Totally agree with Robb's opinion.
The ATF really dislikes home based FFL's and is denying a lot of them and or making your life a pain in the ass. You will also have to make sure that you are selling enough guns so that it does not appear that you have your FFL for personal reasons.
Just find a pawn shop in your area that has their FFL and do transfers through them. They tend to be cheap and want your business.
C4
Totally agree with Robb's opinion.
The ATF really dislikes home based FFL's and is denying a lot of them and or making your life a pain in the ass. You will also have to make sure that you are selling enough guns so that it does not appear that you have your FFL for personal reasons.
Just find a pawn shop in your area that has their FFL and do transfers through them. They tend to be cheap and want your business.
C4
I disagree. The FFL is a SHALL-ISSUE license, BATFE cannot deny you if you meet the criteria which is pretty easy to do. If folks are getting denied, it is most likely for reason, and the #1 reason is zoning issues.
The majority of FFLs in Texas are home-based. I can think of 25+ within 1 hours drive of my home. It is a non-issue here.
Also, to correct some errors from above, there is no requirement to have a safe (though obviously it is a good idea), and they cannot do surprise compliance inspections whenever they want, it must be during business hours (All my compliance inspections I was given a days notice). Also, 922r only applies to manufacture, not possession or transfer. I also never heard of a quarterly report for used guns, maybe that is a VA thing. Please cite CFR on this as I would like to know for sure.
ETA:
§ 478.47 Issuance of license.
(a) Upon receipt of a properly executed application for a license on ATF Form 7, ATF Form 7CR, or ATF Form 8 Part II, the Chief, Federal Firearms Licensing Center, shall, upon finding through further inquiry or investigation, or otherwise, that the applicant is qualified, issue the appropriate license
Meet the requirements, you are GTG.
montanadave
05-07-11, 09:53
Just find a pawn shop in your area that has their FFL and do transfers through them. They tend to be cheap and want your business.
C4
I use a local pawn shop. Charge is $25. Never had a hassle.
I disagree. The FFL is a SHALL-ISSUE license, BATFE cannot deny you if you meet the criteria which is pretty easy to do.
They have been denying home based FFL's more and more OR they pull them and do not renew the license after the third year (according to an ATF agent I have talked to).
There are many home based FFL's out there. This doesn't mean that the ATF likes them and doesn't do what they can to pull or deny them.
Also, to correct some errors from above, there is no requirement to have a safe (though obviously it is a good idea), and they cannot do surprise compliance inspections whenever they want, it must be during business hours (All my compliance inspections I was given a days notice). Also, 922r only applies to manufacture, not possession or transfer. I also never heard of a quarterly report for used guns, maybe that is a VA thing. Please cite CFR on this as I would like to know for sure.
Correct. No safe is needed, but is a good idea.
I have never been given a "notice" before they have done a compliance inspection (FYI). They just show up and start looking.
C4
I use a local pawn shop. Charge is $25. Never had a hassle.
Pawn shops are great. THEY WANT YOU in their store. It is pretty common for them to charge under $20 dollars for a transfer as well.
Most FFL's do NOT like to do transfers. So instead of saying NO, they make up some large fee (which they hope discourages people from wanting to do it).
C4
They have been denying home based FFL's more and more OR they pull them and do not renew the license after the third year (according to an ATF agent I have talked to).
There are many home based FFL's out there. This doesn't mean that the ATF likes them and doesn't do what they can to pull or deny them.
I think it may be a regional issue. So many of them here in Texas (especially rural areas) it is the norm, on the other hand I can see how it might not go over well in high-density housing or city areas.
I have never been given a "notice" before they have done a compliance inspection (FYI). They just show up and start looking.
C4
Again, I think that is a regional thing. When I was called, he wanted to make sure I was going to be there before he drove 2 hours out of the city.
Robb Jensen
05-07-11, 10:12
True on the ATF inspections during business hours (one of the main reasons for the business hours). However sometimes special agents come in without warning for fast firearm trace request info. Believe me if they pulled a gun off a guy who took a shot at or shot a Federal agent you'll be getting a live person requesting the trace info vs. a fax from the Tracing center.
The used gun quarterly thing is Federal I believe I'll check with my boss (the FFL holder I work for). We sell/transfer A LOT of firearms, we may be required per ATF to report these used guns. See #12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Tracing_Center
The Firearm Tracing System provides manual & automated data retrieval from:
All previous firearms traces from all sources,
Dealer, Importer, and Manufacturer computer, paper or microfilm “Bound Book” Out-of-Business records (including digital files required by ATF Ruling 2008-2),
Dealer “Bound Book” records (computer and/or paper) copied by ATF during annual inspections.
ATF Form 4473 copied from dealers during annual inspections and in Out-of-Business records.
Multiple Firearm Sales reports (ATF F 3310.4)
Traditional phone calls to the manufacturer, distributor and final selling dealer, and
Additional data sources, such as some state firearms sales records.
Dealer “Bound Books” over 20 years old voluntarily sent in to ATF.
Includes some antique firearms allowed to be entered in “Bound Books”.
Stolen firearms reported to ATF.
System 2000 automated retrieval system from manufacturers, importers and distributors (48 companies as of 2009)
Certain firearms dealers are required by ATF to report certain used firearms transaction to ATF for entry into the Firearms Tracing System
True on the ATF inspections during business hours (one of the main reasons for the business hours).
Yes, I knew YOU knew that, but wanted to clarify for the non-FFL asking questions. Apologize if it did not come out right.
However sometimes special agents come in without warning for fast firearm trace request info. Believe me if they pulled a gun off a guy who took a shot at or shot a Federal agent you'll be getting a live person requesting the trace info vs. a fax from the Tracing center.
Haven't had that problem, but I do know of folks getting calls at home during off-hours for an emergency trace and asking them to go to shop to look it up.
Robb Jensen
05-07-11, 10:27
Haven't had that problem, but I do know of folks getting calls at home during off-hours for an emergency trace and asking them to go to shop to look it up.
It doesn't happen often at all around here either but we're close to D.C. and have lots of different Federal Agencies and local LE agencies that are mingled together in anti-gang, anti-drug, anti-terrorism etc Task Forces where the local LE officers have dual creds (both local and Federal).
I wasn't yet in the gun industry when we had the infamous 'beltway sniper' John Mohammed and Malvo thing in 2002. I never got a visit from Federal agents then but I know a few people that did. It was amazing the amount of gun data that they had on people who were not criminals.
I do co-own a Tool and Die shop with my Dad, which is in town away from my home. Which would be good for having business hours as our lobby is open 8-3 M-Th 8-Noon Fri.
I'll go over it with him. I'm mostly wanting to do this as the local FFL is THE ONLY FFL within 45min.....
Thanks for the info guys.
Robb Jensen
05-07-11, 10:34
I do co-own a Tool and Die shop with my Dad, which is in town away from my home. Which would be good for having business hours as our lobby is open 8-3 M-Th 8-Noon Fri.
I'll go over it with him. I'm mostly wanting to do this as the local FFL is THE ONLY FFL within 45min.....
Thanks for the info guys.
Since it's already an existing business it should be fairly easy for you to get an FFL.
- Should I use my home address as my place of business?
- Been told that any firearms in the building, even personal ones have to be cataloged/registered? (Cataloged, possibly, but registered? Really?)
- I know the ATF can do an "inspection" anytime it wishes, but the likely hood of that is slim unless something shady happens or a gun you sold is used in a crime.
- Anything else I need to know?
1. Probably won't be able to. Getting a FFL requires compliance with code and zoning and it is unlikely you will be able to get zoned for a firearm business in a residential area. This is how they were able to get rid of most home based FFLs in the 90s.
2. Personal firearms must be marked "not for sale."
3. Compliance inspections can only be done during business hours but they are done for any reason.
4. Once you satisfy code & zoning, occupational permits, county licensing fees and all the other expenses associated with being a FFL you will discover you are probably still paying more than $50 per gun.
And finally you probably won't get it anyway as you seem to be doing this to build a personal collection rather than start a business and ATF doesn't approve hobby dealers.
I do co-own a Tool and Die shop with my Dad, which is in town away from my home. Which would be good for having business hours as our lobby is open 8-3 M-Th 8-Noon Fri.
I'll go over it with him. I'm mostly wanting to do this as the local FFL is THE ONLY FFL within 45min.....
Thanks for the info guys.
In that case you are in a much better position to actually get a FFL. Having a commercially zoned property will give you a much better chance. Now the big part is convincing ATF that you will in fact be running a firearm business and not just a Hobby FFL to hook up you and your buddies.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.