View Full Version : 1-4 variable optic use in combat?
In my own comparisons of different sighting options, I settled on a variable 1-4 illuminated optic. For my level of skill, I found for close targets, on 1X it is as fast as an aimpoint or EOTech. Cranking it up as desired assists in the harder, longer range shots. I chose the Burris XTR 1-4 and I find durable and reliable. Only complaint is weight - it add over 1.5 pounds including the mount. 1-4 variable optics are pretty popular with the the 3-gun crowd.
I haven't seen much evidence of 1-4 variable optics being used by our troops in combat. For those of you in the know, are they gaining popularity? If their relative low use is true, is it because they are lagging behind in adoption, or is it something else like durability in combat, the weight, the cost, the bulkiness or what?
For a place like Afghanistan, it feels like a 1-4 would be ideal. One day you might be in CQB and the next, exchanging rounds at 400 meters. Whats the word out there for 1-4 variable optics in combat scenarios?
For a place like Afghanistan, it feels like a 1-4 would be ideal. One day you might be in CQB and the next, exchanging rounds at 400 meters. Whats the word out there for 1-4 variable optics in combat scenarios?
I would think 1-8x would be better? :confused:
I would think 1-8x would be better? :confused:
More weight, size, complexity and less light transmission for relatively little gain.
These are the numbers for the Schmidt Bender Short Dots:
------------1.1-4 -------------1-8-----------difference
weight:----18.7 oz -----------23oz --------4.3 oz
length:-----10.6" -------------12.1"--------1.5"
I don't know how you conclude luminosity and complexity are different, but overall, I don't think you are giving up much. yet, you gain the magnification so that our boys out there can ID the mofos.
More weight, size, complexity and less light transmission for relatively little gain.
What brand are you talking about? As post above S&B is about the same and have the same light transmission.
Nightvisionary
05-08-11, 03:56
The Leupold MK 4 1.5x5 has an NSN and I have seen it once or twice in pics mounted on rifles in combat use. Haven't heard any feedback.
More weight, size, complexity and less light transmission for relatively little gain.
Have you looked through a S&B?
To the OP, I would gather that a good number of the units using Short Dots and other such optics aren't in many posistions to have their pictures taken.
The Marines used the NF 1-4x back in 2004. They also just procured the Leupold 1.1-8x (designated the M521 HDO) for their M2's and Mk19's (not exactly rifles, but still...).
From what I've learned, most of the 1-4's in theatre, aside from Nightforces, are personally-purchased optics that end-users were allowed to use. Big military prefers KISS stuff like ACOGs and Aimpoints and their optic inventory reflects that. You typically only see variable-power scopes on DMR/SPR rifles or special-role weaponry.
A note: just because something has an NSN number does not mean it's issued, it just means it has an NSN number and the manufacturer is hoping to sell to the military.
Whootsinator
05-08-11, 11:25
The Elcan SPECTER comes to mind.
http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv201/JSK_2009/mk18mod1.jpg
http://www.knesekguns.com/commercial/images/sf-elcan.jpg
http://www.knesekguns.com/commercial/images/Elcan-SpecterDR-2-Afghanist.jpg
The Elcan SPECTER comes to mind.
http://www.knesekguns.com/commercial/images/sf-elcan.jpg
http://www.knesekguns.com/commercial/images/Elcan-SpecterDR-2-Afghanist.jpg
The Elcan isn't a variable scope in the traditional sense, it's a flip-lever with 2 available magnifications.
5th group uses Nightforce 1x4's
Whootsinator
05-08-11, 11:46
The Elcan isn't a variable scope in the traditional sense, it's a flip-lever with 2 available magnifications.
True, but I consider it close enough to at least be included in the discussion.
Ive seen numerous TR21's in pic's mostly from Iraq(early pics-04'-07').....
google image:
http://i2.tinypic.com/qq8v91.jpg
What brand are you talking about? As post above S&B is about the same and have the same light transmission.
I just remember looking at a bunch of different scopes and I felt 1-4 was as big as I was willing to go. And even that I am questioning. I just saw someone with an aimpoint shoot and quickly hit flashers up to 375 yards faster then almost everyone magnification or not. So, for most practical applications, I am wondering if any magnification is worth it. For me, I am shooting better with a 1-4, but maybe I just needed to train more. I guess that is why I am asking about their use in the real world. Do the experts find them useful for general use?
As for my statement about light transmission and complexity - that is from my dated knowledge of camera lenses and may be inaccurate. I always understood that the greater the zoom, the greater the need for mechanical precision to prevent distortion and the greater the magnification, the less light transmission to be compensated for by larger objective lens. The bigger the lens the more precisely it needs to be ground to prevent distortion. Keep the same objective lens and you get less light. I am getting the feeling I spoke without doing the proper research.
I never saw the S&B and just looked them up now. I am intrigued, and would like to see one. So if we are saying that 1-4 is equal to 1-8 in light transmission, durability complexity. distortion, etc. then I apologize for my improperly researched response.
I you want the versatility of having a dedicated CQB magnification and a medium-range magnification, the Spectre is an excellent choice.
In my experience, the ACOG is the best "all around" optic for a place like Afghanistan. We teach and practice the B.A.C. to everyone when I was in Bn Scouts, so the illuminated reticle is more than ample for the 10-20 meter "CQB" engagements you're likely to face. Having the 4x was great in the mountains and made PID much easier at ranges like 200-300m. We run the TA31-F, for what it's worth.
From my unit's experience, most of our TIC's were anywhere from 300 to 450 meters with only one occassion we took direct fire from beyond 550m which was outside range of the M4 anyway. There were only four instances we took contact within 100m.
Although it's a recent purchase, I picked up a TR24G for a personal rifle and find its application rather slim. I can use an ACOG for everything from 25m to 400m just fine, so the benefit of having that adjustability between 1-4x doesn't seem very useful to me.
I think that most guys going to Afghanistan would be well served with an ACOG and could call it a day. I'm not a HSLD guy, but for what we do, a fixed 4x is perfect for the M4.
YMMV and all that happy shit.
Failure2Stop
05-09-11, 10:27
The limited evidence of "better" equipment is mostly due to unit restrictions. While those restrictions prevent some from taking a great piece of gear into theatre, it also prevents far more from taking substandard and inferior gear.
I used my old S&B Short Dot for the 1st 3 months of OEF before switching to a TA11 ACOG. I typically kept the S&B at 4x anyway and found that most times when I was entering a room I would rather rely on the VIS/IR laser on my PEQ-15. I now run an ELCAN as even when I did use the S&B the only to settings I utilized was 1 or 4 power. The whole adjustable knob on a 1x4 doesnt thrill me. I can see how on a 1-8 or higher it would be needed, but I find the flip switch of the DR a much better thought out and usable design.
Rick
Rick,
I've always found your posts here and on Lightfighter very objective. As such, what are your thoughts and experiences with the quality problems with the Elcan? Namely zero shifts between 1-4 power and loss of zero due to the mount? There is a lot of hate for the Elcan on LF, and it's hard to sort out what may be older versions of the Elcan, issued optic abuse and repeated information.
From what I can tell there are atleast three distinct Elcan version, one with the ARMS levers on the left, modified to levers on the right, lock added to the power throw lever, and various exterior mods. There also seems to be more incremental changes in there too.
I keep loolong at the Elcan, but the wandering zero stuff makes me hesitate. I can see what you talking about in regards to power. On my vari scopes, it was either all the way down or all the way up.
The field of view through the Elcan is amazingly high. One of the few things I liked about the TA31s.
Also, Elcan's website lists the Specter DR of having a "coaxial alignment" of less than 1.5moa. I take this to mean a shift between 1 and 4 power.
Obviously up close it's not very significant, but slightly bothersome for a $1800-1900 optic.
SeriousStudent
05-09-11, 20:11
There was a thread similar to this a while back, but I could not find it with a search. If I recall correctly, one of the SME's mentioned they had used a S&B Short Dot in combat.
Maybe it was Dano5326? I can't promise it was him, but I thought he pointed out the advantages related to target discrimination and speed of acquisition.
And I remember KevinB had lots of photos of his carbine equipped with a Short Dot in Iraq. He's working for KAC now, but you might check out some of Mr. Boland's posts as well.
I've got a TR-24G mounted on a BCM middy, based on that thread.
I have seen all three different types of Elcan. I believe there are technically 2 Generations with two seperate iterations of the second Gen. The one I currently use is the latest model with right side ARMS mounts and rounded exterior housing.
I have had no problems at all with ARMS mounts losing zero as of yet. I have removed the sight at least 10 times and havent had the slightest indication of a wandering zero. That said, I would much rather it use a Larue or Bobro mount as I have had terrible experiences with ARMS in the past.
As to the "wandering zero" I havent experinced that on any of the models. The earlier ones had a decidedly different zero from 1-4 power but it was repeatable. I have noticed what appears to be a 1-2 MOA shift on some days with my current model. However, being that the sight is zeroed in 4x, the shift only occurs when using the 1x setting. A 1-2 MOA shift with a 6 MOA dot isnt something I concern myself with. I am able to make groups small enough to notice the shift, but in a combat optic as long as the bullets are hitting within the dot that is all that I require of it.
As discussed previously in reference to ACOGs, it is a combat sight, made to kill people, not shoot groups. Using the BDC is just as simple(read: FAST) as an ACOGs. The BDC cams on a S&B are incredibly precise, but the lack of a BDC reticle required shooters to either dial in the range before engaging (and after ranging the target) or shoot enough to learn their holdovers, which many military shooters are not alloted the range time or ammuntion to develop.
I also am running a MRDS on top of the ELCAN, mainly because I had one laying around and wanted to experiement with the set up in training, and so far I really like it.
Rick
I was thinking the MRDS on top would be good for use with a gas mask. Not that you .mil guys gas many houses. ;)
As discussed previously in reference to ACOGs, it is a combat sight, made to kill people, not shoot groups. Using the BDC is just as simple(read: FAST) as an ACOGs. The BDC cams on a S&B are incredibly precise, but the lack of a BDC reticle required shooters to either dial in the range before engaging (and after ranging the target) or shoot enough to learn their holdovers, which many military shooters are not alloted the range time or ammuntion to develop.
I'm realistic about what I'm doing. I'll be training some, shooting groups, and if agency policies change, throwing it in my trunk. To some degree, I know that I won't be happy with an optic I couldn't punch a ragged hole with.
As to the latter half of your point, that why I like reticles with mil stadia. I end up using the ammo I can buy/get, which may or may not match any BDC.
Maybe i'll just buy a T-1 and a magnifier and round out the rest of my AR want list with a Gemtech Halo...I need a second job.
After being spoiled w/ the clarity of my ACOG, Elcan, and S&B I cant stand the fuzzy mess that is a T1 and magnifier. I dont like either EOtechs or Aimpoints with magnifiers behind them, but I havent put the time behind them to get used to the sight picture either. There are quite a few guys who are much better shooters than I that love the combination.
I found with a 14.5 inch barrel and with anything from 55-77 gr the BDC worked close enough that with a few minutes at a KD range I felt comfortable with any ammo choice. And if all else fails, God invented tracers ;)
Honestly, its hard to go wrong with any of the choices in quality optic, as you can train to use any of them extremely well and trust them to work when your life is on the line. For general purpose optics I do tend to reccomend 3 or 3.5x ACOGs as you can train around the magnification at closer ranges, but as of yet there is no way to train your eye to zoom in with a Aimpoint.
If mil reticles are your thing (I admit I have next to no training in their use) I REALLY like the 2.5-10 NF w/ MRDS. If I truly had to have one rifle/optic combination to do everything there isnt anything that comes close.
Rick
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