small base sizing dies for 223/5.56?

[bobke]

should be in receipt of a new to me, unfired noveske spr sometime next week and trying to line up loading gear for same. i know noveske cuts a specific chamber of his design for his guns, believe they're marked 'NMm0', if memory serves. i'm not worried about the choice of components, i'll figure that out, but would like to know if, in using a mix of range brass, recovered new brass shot in gun and the usual heinz 57 mix we all use sometimes, is a small base, full length sizing die required, or would a national match/std base full length sizing die or bushing style die work just as well?

i've settled on redding, so there's no arguing the choice of manufacture, but as i haven't loaded for either a semi auto rifle or 223/5.56 before (but do for all my pistol/revolver and wide range of rifle), need to answer this one question in my mind. end use will be varied, but absolute reliability, every shot, req'd. whatever i settle on will be optimized for accuracy and function, regardless. appreciate any comments from experienced hands. thanks.

[SteadyUp]

As a rule of thumb, I don't use small base dies unless I am having issues with regularly full-length sized brass chambering normally.

I'd go with standard FL sizer dies first. Use SB only if needed.

[markm]

As a rule of thumb, I don't use small base dies unless I am having issues with regularly full-length sized brass chambering normally.

I'd go with standard FL sizer dies first. Use SB only if needed.

I agree. I've never had to use a small base die. If I did, I'd replace the gun, not the die. :confused:

[sinister]

If you have more than one AR, or one with a MILSPEC and one with a commercial or match chamber I recommend a small base die (and Redding does make them).

You may not want to shoot rounds once-fired in a MILSPEC chamber in a tight commercial or match chamber if you're only using full-length dies -- the case dimensions above the extractor groove may be fatter than your tight chamber. The result could be extraction failures and slam-fires.

Small-base dies will bring your brass closer to virgin brass dimensions and can't hurt functioning in an autoloader. Screw standard FL dies.

[bobke]

sinister-
any downside, accuracy wise, to sb dies? chamber will be noveske's version NMm0, his spec certain, but i cannot tell you exactly how that might compare to a mil spec, match or other, but it is a 5.56. anyone throw in, if other info/experience to contrary. thx.

[SteadyUp]

If you have more than one AR, or one with a MILSPEC and one with a commercial or match chamber I recommend a small base die (and Redding does make them).

You may not want to shoot rounds once-fired in a MILSPEC chamber in a tight commercial or match chamber if you're only using full-length dies -- the case dimensions above the extractor groove may be fatter than your tight chamber. The result could be extraction failures and slam-fires.

Small-base dies will bring your brass closer to virgin brass dimensions and can't hurt functioning in an autoloader. Screw standard FL dies.

I guess my point is that if you aren't having any issues with regular FL dies, why work your brass more than necessary with a SB die?

[sinister]

It's brass -- the softest and most expendable re-usable part of the entire firing chain.

Why would you not want cases as close to virgin brass dimensions to fire from an autoloader?

[Boxerglocker]

I guess my point is that if you aren't having any issues with regular FL dies, why work your brass more than necessary with a SB die?

In addition other than just "knowing" you have a match barrel. Is there a case gauge that can measure this tighter "virgin" tolerance?

[sinister]

Use your reloading calipers to determine the size of your case above the extractor rim on a fired case, a full-length sized case, a small-base sized case, and the dimensions off a virgin case/unfired round or the case dimensions in a reloading manual.

As soon as you mic your cases you'll know -- it will be pretty obvious.

Also easily determined if you drop in a sized case and push it into the chamber with your pinky or the eraser end of a pencil. If the case drops out with the muzzle elevated you're good. If it sticks and you have to punch it out with a cleaning rod from the muzzle there's a clue.

[Boxerglocker]

Use your reloading calipers to determine the size of your case above the extractor rim on a fired case, a full-length sized case, a small-base sized case, and the dimensions off a virgin case/unfired round or the case dimensions in a reloading manual.

As soon as you mic your cases you'll know -- it will be pretty obvious.

Also easily determined if you drop in a sized case and push it into the chamber with your pinky or the eraser end of a pencil. If the case drops out with the muzzle elevated you're good. If it sticks and you have to punch it out with a cleaning rod from the muzzle there's a clue.

So what is the SB range? Is there anywhere that it is documented? I just looked at two manuals and no differentiation is listed.

Edit: So a little more research and it now clear we are talking chambers outside normal SAMMI specs here. From the Redding website:
Special Small Base Body, Full Length & Type-
Now available in the following calibers for fire a rms with custom chamberings that are tighter than SAAMI specifications.

[shootist~]

So what is the SB range?

Based on my RCBS SB die, I have a feeling that there is not as much difference as some may think. My RCBS SB sizer is adjusted so my resized cases fit flush to a or little under the rim of my case gauge. It only takes my fired cases (measuring just above the web) down .002".

A 3rd time reloaded case that last went through my Daniel Defense resized to just .001" below a fired case from my Noveske. Both are 1x7 NATO chambers.)

I'll even guess that some or most of the die manufacturers, knowing most of their "standard" .223 dies are used for semi-autos, build in a little buffer.

A good test is to load some dummy rounds and hard cycle them through your chamber. If they are a little too big they will be hard to extract. (This could be due to either the shoulder or the web.)

[bobke]

shootist-
so in reading last post, the sb die doesn't heavily resize your cases, though is that because of an initially tight chamber to start with? how does a national match full length standard sizing die compare to sb? realize this may be splitting hairs, but as expensive as a good redding setup is, want to make the proper choice at front end. here's a set i'm looking at:http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=38710/Product/Redding_National_Match_Die_Set__223_Rem
includes taper crimp die, as well, though another post i'd read here or elsewhere said that if introducing the proper neck tolerance-likely with a bushing style die, neck tension should hold same in place without a taper crimp. theory sounds proper, and desirable, but i'm thinking ahead that if in loading longer/heavier bullets at near mag length, a slight crimp might not hurt to avoid nose damage. comments, thoughts?

[shootist~]

bobke,

I think Redding makes the best dies money can buy - I just happen to have RCBS (two sets) for .223. I used to load processed surplus military brass. That's probably why I initially went with the SB sizer.

Research the Redding Competition seater die if you plan to load 77 grain SMKs - I think it requires an optional seater stem.

BTW, I just bought a Forester Competition seater - the Redding is a copy of the Forester. But the Forester won't work in my Dillon 1050 loader - it hangs down to low and the loaded round won't let the machine cycle. Pisser. I guess it goes back to Midway.

I can easily oversize my brass by screwing the sizer die down a little more - it does not take much. That's why a chamber check gauge is important. Loading some dummies and hard cycling them through your rifle is also a good idea. This is also true if you are loading long heavy bullets (68-77 grain) and need to check for setback.

I've personally experienced setback issues with the longer bullets, but Only in a couple of rifles with A2 feed ramps. I've never had that issue with my newer rifles (all with M4 feed ramps). But I now look for it.

Good neck tension is much more important than a crimp. I doubt a taper crimp does much to stop setback, anyway. Having said that, I put a light taper crimp on my 77 SMK loads. For 55s I don't care one way or another.

[Snake Plissken]

As said before they're only recommended to alleviate problems with full-length sizing. Although if you're having problems with the brass that is full-length sized it's likely either you doing something incorrect or just a bad die (rather rare).

I've loaded and shot ~1300 rnds of .223 Remington from all sorts of sources (military surplus once fired, range pickups, etc). All were sized through a Redding FL sizing die. However on a side note, pick your sizing die individually. Lee dies are great too if you replace the lock ring with one of Hornady's. Hornady's lock rings are by far the best for the money and the most available. The seating die that came with my Redding FL two-die set has difficulties maintaining a consistent seating depth with Hornady 75 gr BTHP bullets. Despite what I think it is, it could very well also be the sheer unpredictability and poor construction of Hornady 'Match' bullets. I will have to try with some Sierra bullets.

[bobke]

shootist-
thanks. good information. makes me think a hybrid setup might be best, once i have gun in hand (maybe tomorrow or thursday) and can ascertain exactly what the real measurements of chamber are. maybe a full length bushing style sizing die, vernier seating depth die and a taper crimp die, for cheap insurance. hurry up and wait is not my normal m.o.

snake-
i have a hard time understanding why hornady ogives are inconsistent enough to vary seating depth significantly. you read the reviews on midway, sniper's hide and m4 on that bullet and they're pretty consistently positive, but for one guy who says fast twist is tearing thin jackets apart well before reaching targets. but the equipment used to manufacture these bullets is pretty near bullet proof, except if near the end of it's usable pc count per die. everything wears out, even hardened tool steels used for same. seems like you might hear the same complaints about hornady elsewhere, but i haven't seen same, yet. anyone else?

my only beef with redding dies is the round lock ring and it's inconsistency when locking it down during die set up. i like to use enough spacer to slightly overcam a die at it's final destination and then lock ring, but with soft brass screws, lead rings and poorly fit allen keys, it's not always a cinch it's properly snug. i like lock rings that squeeze the die's waistline, insuring a more uniform lock setting, and also insuring a consistent reset, every time you reinstall dies.

i load for a bunch of calibers on both an rcbs rockchucker and an rcbs progressive, so am changing dies frequently and like to be back in exactly the same place, each and every time i reinstall. not sure if that might have something to do with inconsistent oal for loaded rounds, but it's something i've tried to eliminate at the initial setup for all die sets.

thanks for valuable and continuing feedback. i'm taking notes.

[Snake Plissken]

I replaced the lock rings on my Redding dies as well. All I have are now using Hornady lock rings. However I use a progressive press from Hornady and do not need to use lock rings very often because of the quick change bushings.