View Full Version : M&P9c+DCAEK+IWB- Thumb Safety?
Well, I've been sitting here for over two hours now just today reading old threads, and I haven't run across a thread that covers this angle or given me a solid yay/nay yet, so....
The above combination is something I have been mulling over for around 3 months now (well, actually longer, but in the interest of not having a wall of text here...) and honestly, I'm stumped.
-I know I want an M&P C.
-I'm very sure I'll be getting the DCAEK/RAM as well.
-This will be pulling triple duty for HD/Fun/CCW.
-There is a 90% chance it will be carried IWB in a kydex holster of some sort.
I have done as much hands on research as I am able to- enough for me to fairly confidently assume the above will work for me.
The part I just cannot get around is the safety. Yeah, I know- there's already six zillion threads on this issue.... Sorry mods.
The problem is out of all the threads I've read (probably darn near every one over the last couple months), they either don't cover certain points, or they conflict each other too much. I've literally read in thread A "no need for safety" and thread B "must have or else..."
I realize this is just one of those never ending debates that will never be fully solved, but...seriously...?:confused: :suicide:
As of now I'm in the 'no safety' camp. For all of the M&Ps I have been able to grab, I've found the safety to be rather annoying, and weak when manipulated (ie, I could probably blow it on and off, and it sticks out farther than some others). And for the compact I want, I have a gut feeling it's really going to get in the way of my hands when shooting.
All the stores I've been in, 99% carry only the non-safetied version. I'd like to think S&W wouldn't sell a mojority like this without good reason.
There's also the case of the huge amount of handguns already being carried without a manual safety (glock, various revolvers, etc.)-what I've seen of some folks' CC setups seems to confirm this. It seems that for every safetied M&P, there's another being carried without it; every other brand gun with a safety, and theres two others with glocks.
However for all that, there's always the few folks that say otherwise (like DockGKR) that put that little niggle of doubt back into my head-'maybe I shouldgo with a safety even though I'll probably hate it...'.
So once and for all:
-M&P
-Apex DCAEK
-IWB carry
Safety or no safety?
I voted for no safety for you. I don't know what you are use to shooting but if you are doubting the manual safety then don't get it. You could always get one with it on and remove it if it bugs you but you cannot go the other way.
For me coming from 1911 to the M&P the manual safety was a must! I'm keeping the muscle memory there. Either way you will be happy. Good luck!
I'll agree with kar30--get one with a safety and try it for a while. If you don't like it, it's easy to remove.
However, if you get one without a safety it's very difficult to add the safety later if you change your mind.
So, for basically the same price, get the one with the safety and keep your options open. Only you know what will work for you given your modes of operation.
Oh, and there are some threads over on the M&P board on how to Dremel the safety to make it actuate more positively, if that aspect of the safety bugs you.
(Yes, my M&P has a safety since I come from a 1911 background.)
The thumb safety is not a necessary part for the function and safety of the pistol therefore it's not my choice. Parts that are not needed are useless parts that could break.
regular_guy
05-09-11, 22:42
I carry an M&P 9c without the safety, plus DCAEK and RAM in the AIWB position every day without problems if that helps you out.
If the idea of not having a safety bothers you, you might want to try carrying an unloaded weapon around the house, etc. until you are comfortable with it.
I voted for no safety for you. I don't know what you are use to shooting but if you are doubting the manual safety then don't get it. You could always get one with it on and remove it if it bugs you but you cannot go the other way.
I've owned both an XDm and Glock, as well as having shot just about every handgun I can get my hands on over the last two years every time I went to a rental range. I also shoot an AR. So I suppose I'm basically familiar with both types.
If the idea of not having a safety bothers you, you might want to try carrying an unloaded weapon around the house, etc. until you are comfortable with it.
It's not that that I'm uncomfortable with no safety, as stated above. It's just that due to the issues in my orignal post, it's gone from "do I want it" to "should I have it for this situation".
As you guys have already stated, I know I could get one with the safety to try, and still have the option to remove it. This option is definately still on the table. Aside from what I've previously stated, the potential deal breaker with that for me would be the extra pain in the ass if I wanted to change it, and I'd lose out on the RAM.
I will definately be "using" it around the house, as well as putting at least a couple hundred rounds through it before I take it anywhere. Plus I haven't got the holster yet...:p
I voted safety. Regardless of what you think about it, choice is good. Even if you take it off right away and never think of it again, its still better to have it... suddenly you have a thought later on in a year that you want one, and voila you can try it. If you take off and never use it ever, it still doesn't hurt you to have that option.
IMO it depends on what you're used to, if you're coming primarily from a platform without a safety then stick to it, if other wise get one with the safety. I went from G19 to M&P9C so no safety for me, I did accidentally get one with the magazine disconnect so be careful of that unless you want it. Makes dry firing annoying at the very least since I prefer NOT to insert a magazine for verification purposes.
I swear I posted on here from my phone yesterday....
There is no reason a safety is needed for carrying IWB - or even AIWB - even with the DCAEK (given it's a quality gun in a quality holster). Reholstering should be a slow, careful and deliberate process. I never understood why some rush to reholster (outside of an absolute emergency).
The reason you see most M&Ps without a safety is because they attract the striker fired crowd more than the SAO and DA / SA crowd. If someone is coming from Glock - they don't want to fumble with switches. Most who like the safety come from the M1911 and like a similar manual of arms. It's probably why most M&Ps with thumb safeties you see are of the .45 flavor.
You mention home defense though. I've never been comfortable keeping a gun in "condition zero" on the nightstand. This is an area where you may want to consider the safety. Or rig an old holster to the night stand so that the trigger isn't exposed to being accidently engaged. On that note - I consider the Glock trigger safer than the M&P trigger - especially when you add the DCAEK - in this situation.
My honest opinion? Get it without the safety and get the Raven Concealment Vanguard (http://www.ravenconcealmentsystems.com/product_info.php?cPath=82_97_119&products_id=1617) for use on the nightstand. Use a piece of paracord tied to the Vanguard tied to the nightstand. That way the trigger stays covered by a safe piece of kydex that will remove itself should you deploy the gun.
Hope this helps you some...
*I currently carry an M&P9 w/ DCAEK without Safety - often IWB.
I carry an M&P 9c with DCAEK installed every day and I do NOT have the thumb safety, nor have I ever seen a need for it.
You mention home defense though. I've never been comfortable keeping a gun in "condition zero" on the nightstand. This is an area where you may want to consider the safety. Or rig an old holster to the night stand so that the trigger isn't exposed to being accidently engaged. On that note - I consider the Glock trigger safer than the M&P trigger - especially when you add the DCAEK - in this situation.
My honest opinion? Get it without the safety and get the Raven Concealment Vanguard (http://www.ravenconcealmentsystems.com/product_info.php?cPath=82_97_119&products_id=1617) for use on the nightstand. Use a piece of paracord tied to the Vanguard tied to the nightstand. That way the trigger stays covered by a safe piece of kydex that will remove itself should you deploy the gun.
Hmmm-
I'm still working on a holster.
That looks like an interesting option for HD storage though.
I have not been comfortable leaving my gun lying around with a round chambered either. Especially in the spot where I usually keep it- It's out of sight and still easy to get to (and pretty darn clever too if I may say so.:D), but there's still a risk of it being found by accident, so I usually store it with a loaded mag/ empty chamber. Not exactly ideal, but that little item may just solve this....
I carry an M&P 9c with DCAEK installed every day and I do NOT have the thumb safety, nor have I ever seen a need for it.
Agreed.
Hmmm-
I'm still working on a holster.
That looks like an interesting option for HD storage though.
I have not been comfortable leaving my gun lying around with a round chambered either. Especially in the spot where I usually keep it- It's out of sight and still easy to get to (and pretty darn clever too if I may say so.:D), but there's still a risk of it being found by accident, so I usually store it with a loaded mag/ empty chamber. Not exactly ideal, but that little item may just solve this....
It seems like a great solution. I understand you can have the item in a week. I can't think of a better solution - especially if you are tucking it in a drawer with other objects or under the bed where a spring could potentially engage the trigger.
As far as keeping a round out of the chamber - have you seen the video of the jewelry store robbery in which the owner kept the weapon without a round chambered? Under stress, he was riding the slide and the gun wouldn't go into battery. After several failed attempts (and ejected rounds) - he ended up being shot and killed.
Keep your finger away from the trigger when reholstering and drawing, and pick up a Vanguard. If a badguy goes after you in the streets - you have no switches to fumble with. If a badguy busts in your bedroom - you have no switches to fumble with. If your daughter is creeping around in your bedroom for change to get an ice cream from the Ice Cream Truck - at least you know she has much less of a chance engaging the trigger.
As always, YMMV. Best of luck, brother. Just opening up a few potential scenarios.
ActiveShooter
05-10-11, 19:20
I voted "No safety". One more thing to fail / fumble with and your trigger finger should be your safety. I have several M&P's that have tens of thousands of rounds through them, none of which have a safety, nor have I ever seen the need for one.
RadioActivity
05-11-11, 16:24
I find the "No issues" posts about appendix carry + no safety amusing. The only way you would be aware of an issue is if you had an ND into your groin. Which is, something we would hear about to say the least. People carry Glocks, J frames, ect AIWB and "have no issues" (ie don't shoot themselves) everyday. No news there.
As for the safety, I'd get it with, and remove it if you like. I like having a safety for numerous reasons that have been listed before, but for me the main ones were:
-Common muscle memory with 1911 format pistols, which I also carry.
-Another layer of safety if the gun leaves your possession and someone is manipulating it (whether a hostile act like a gun grab, an EMT because you've been in a car accident, ect ect)
I could probably blow it on and off, and it sticks out farther than some others). And for the compact I want, I have a gut feeling it's really going to get in the way of my hands when shooting.
I find this statement odd. If you are holding the pistol like many advocate, I'm not sure as how it could get in the way of your hands. And indeed, the safety while admittedly weaker and not as positive feeling as some other firearms, can not move to the "SAFE" position if you're thumb is resting on it while holding the weapon. It shouldn't be in the way either.
All of that said, at the end of the day, if you don't carry 1911's, or you're coming from a pistol platform that doesn't have a safety (Glock ect) then you can always remove it. But with enough trigger time it becomes so natural (as natural as holding the pistol itself) I bet you leave it on there.
....I find this statement odd. If you are holding the pistol like many advocate, I'm not sure as how it could get in the way of your hands. And indeed, the safety while admittedly weaker and not as positive feeling as some other firearms, can not move to the "SAFE" position if you're thumb is resting on it while holding the weapon. It shouldn't be in the way either.
Wait a second- so I got it wrong...:eek: The safety flips UP to fire?
Well I THOUGHT something was fishy.....
Like I said earlier, I have not seen a safetied version in any of the gun shops near me, and ditto for the rental ranges I've been too, so I haven't been able to fire a version with the safety.
I was only able to just basically handle one with a safety at a gunshow I was at recently, and I just assumed (:rolleyes:) that it was down to fire like an AR....
Now I feel really stupid.
devilsdeeds
05-12-11, 10:01
No, the safety is on when it is up just like a 1911. He was stating that with the proper technique, shooting hand thumb over safety, your not going to put the gun on safe(up) when firing.
My vote is with thumb safety, since it gives you both options anyways.
RadioActivity
05-12-11, 21:28
Perfect for our conversation: Travis Haley explaining proper grip, using an M&P45 w/ manual safety (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm9uG5bPubw)
You are right about the DOWN to FIRE, and UP for SAFE. You just misunderstood me, hard to demonstrate technique over the internet. Notice his thumb placement during firing, as he moves it out of the way often during his monologue as to not obstruct the view of what he's trying to explain. His thumb rests on the safety, and in fact can be used to apply slight downward pressure to the pistol itself to further mitigate recoil. I highly advocate this grip and it is somewhat universally accepted as modern "proper" grip for a pistol. Train with it until it becomes as natural as having your finger off the trigger and running parallel down the side of the frame (another portion of gripping a pistol individuals often seem to find unnatural at first). When you grab the pistol you should find your hands as Travis's are, without any thought. A few hundred (proper) draw strokes will get you there....which is really only a few hours work spread over a few dry fire sessions.
Another video that is popular for demonstration, this time: Todd Jarrett using a 1911 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48)
Perfect for our conversation: Travis Haley explaining proper grip, using an M&P45 w/ manual safety (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm9uG5bPubw)
You are right about the DOWN to FIRE, and UP for SAFE. You just misunderstood me, hard to demonstrate technique over the internet. Notice his thumb placement during firing, as he moves it out of the way often during his monologue as to not obstruct the view of what he's trying to explain. His thumb rests on the safety, and in fact can be used to apply slight downward pressure to the pistol itself to further mitigate recoil. I highly advocate this grip and it is somewhat universally accepted as modern "proper" grip for a pistol. Train with it until it becomes as natural as having your finger off the trigger and running parallel down the side of the frame (another portion of gripping a pistol individuals often seem to find unnatural at first). When you grab the pistol you should find your hands as Travis's are, without any thought. A few hundred (proper) draw strokes will get you there....which is really only a few hours work spread over a few dry fire sessions.
Another video that is popular for demonstration, this time: Todd Jarrett using a 1911 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48)
Ah yes- I acutally have those dvds (Magpul Dynamics Art of- Handgun and Carbine). I've been working on fixing my grip and incorporating this style instead. I just haven't had much time to practice as I've been flip flopping between handguns the last few months. But I understand what you're saying.
When I was handling the M&Ps at the show, even though I have ape hands, it felt that with my thumb over the top of the safety it was kind of up in limbo. And obviously, trying to stick my finger under it just isn't going to work.
BUT, like I said, I haven't been able to actually fire a safety version so it might be a non issue- all I can really right now do is assume.
I'm just tired of going around in circles with handguns, and I'm really leery right now, after all the other crap I've had to deal with, about bringing an extra hoop to jump through on myself (i.e, if I end up hating the safety and have to remove it- not that it would be impossible, just another THING to deal with.:mad:).
So we'll see- there's good pro's and con's that have been brought up for both. I guess it'll just depend on which comes back in stock first...:laugh:
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