View Full Version : failure to extract
hi,
I AM NEW TO THE FORUM AND STILL LEARNING ABOUT ARS. I WAS LOOKING FOR SOME HELP TO FIGURE OUT A FAILURE I HAD AT THE RANGE TODAY. I DONT KNOW IF IT WOULD BE A FAILURE TO EXTRACT BECAUSE THE ROUND DID NOT FIRE. I TRIED TO PULL THE CHARGING HANDLE BACK BUT IT WAS STUCK. I ASLO ATTEMPTED TO USE THE BOLT AISSIT. TO SEAT THE ROUND AND FIRE. THIS WAS STILL DID NOT WORK. THIS IS WHY I THINK IT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN A FAILURE TO EXTRACT BECAUSE THE BOLT WAS STUCK FORWARD.
TO REMOVE THE STILL LIVE ROUND FROM CHAMBER I HAD THE BEAT ON THE CHARGING HANDLE WHILE THE WEAPON WAS IN TWO PIECES AND POINTED DOWN RANGE. THIS CASUED THE BOLT TO COME BACK EJECTING THE STILL LIVE ROUND. IT SEEMED AS THE ROUND DID NOT SEAT PROPERLY. BUT NOT SURE. I THOUGHT THE AMMO MAY HAVE HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THIS IT BEING WOLF 55 GRAIN. JUST LOOKING FOR SOME FEED BACK OR SOMEONE TO TELL ME I AM A DUMB ASS.
An Undocumented Worker
05-10-11, 22:19
Woah there, no need to yell.
I have seen that happen with Wolf before. I had to motar the rifle to get the round out.
I agree, its probably the ammo. Also, was your BCG lubricated properly? If it was starting to get dry (and the gun was not very clean), then I can see where that could cause problems as well combined with the fact that it is Wolf ammo.
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A few questions:
What brand rifle do you have?
Have you been switching back and forth between steel and brass cased ammo?
How many rounds have you had through your gun since its last cleaning?
How many times has this happened?
.
sorry i just type in caps most of the time.
i have a cheap cmmg bargin bin rifle i got a year ago. it says DPMS on the lower but i have no idea what is really inside it. i shot the day before about 100 rounds. I think it was lubed pretty good. Yesterday i did however fire brass umc 55 grain along with some wolf 55 grain. Did not clean until i got home today after getting the kids down for afternoon naps.
At the risk of sounding stupid what do mean motar the rifle to get the round out?
At the risk of sounding stupid what do mean motar the rifle to get the round out?
It's where you collapse the stock completely and basically slam the butt into the ground while pulling the charging handle to unstick it.
well that would make sense why you would call it motaring the rifle.
i know i don't have the best rifle but i did not want to think that was the problem.
i know i don't have the best rifle but i did not want to think that was the problem.
Unfortunately, it could be, especially since these rifles are known for having tighter, out of spec chambers that can cause issues with running steel case rounds.
You can try having the chamber reamed if you can find somebody with a 5.56 reamer (or send it off to have it done), buy the reamer yourself (ain't cheap and not a path I recommend), or upgrade to a better brand if you have the money and can flip your current rifle.
Try giving the gun a real good cleaning and shooting only 1 type of ammo next range trip and see if that works for you. You may be able to alleviate your problem if you intend to shoot steel case (or you could stick with brass case).
If you intend to use your rifle for home defense, I strongly urge you to upgrade. If your rifle is a range gun only, then you don't have such a pressing need to upgrade.
I had a buddy who brought a DPMS rifle and it was 100% fail with all types of ammo, and it would not work for anything. At least you have a working rifle, take heart, for a bit of money it can be somewhat improved and you are learning. Stick with this site and you'll learn a lot and be able to make an informed decision next time.
I would like to upgrade but i have not decided on weather i want to build one or piece two together or just buy one completed. i have just recently realized how many different options there are out there. And with money being short i am going to do a shit ton of research first.
I would like to upgrade but i have not decided on weather i want to build one or piece two together or just buy one completed. i have just recently realized how many different options there are out there. And with money being short i am going to do a shit ton of research first.
I personally would just go with a complete rifle from one of the top tiers: Colt, Daniel Defense, BCM, etc. I actually own a Spikes, but if I had to do it over again, I'd totally go for the top tier. I like my Spikes (about 2000 rounds through it, but not driven hard), but you can get a tried and true rifle for damn near the same price knowing it is the highest quality.
i was looking at the BCMs but i was thinking a 1:8 twist instead of a 1:7. the only 1:8 twist BCMs seems to offer is the SS0410 model. i dont know if the steal would be as good as the 1:7 chrome.
i was looking at the BCMs but i was thinking a 1:8 twist instead of a 1:7. the only 1:8 twist BCMs seems to offer is the SS0410 model. i dont know if the steal would be as good as the 1:7 chrome.
Any particular reason for 1:8 twist? Also chrome moly will last a bit longer than stainless steel (if I remember correctly) if you plan on running it fairly hard. If I am wrong, then please someone correct me.
i was looking at the BCMs but i was thinking a 1:8 twist instead of a 1:7. the only 1:8 twist BCMs seems to offer is the SS0410 model. i dont know if the steal would be as good as the 1:7 chrome.
Honestly, just stick with the 1-7 chrome lined models. Simply no reason on a general purpose/HD gun to go with anything different IMHO.
And buy the upper and lower separate. It'll save you on the excise tax.
Any particular reason for 1:8 twist? Also chrome moly will last a bit longer than stainless steel (if I remember correctly) if you plan on running it fairly hard. If I am wrong, then please someone correct me.
Im sure you meant chrome lined 4150, and yes it will last longer than stainless SS410 in general. Barrel life is always dependent on heat.
1:7 is the standard because it will shoot any weight 5.56 bullet, and it's the official spec. No real reason to look for 1:8, it works a little better for some people doing hand loads but eh...
The only reason why i wanted a 1:8 twist was i was under the impression that it stabilized a 55 grain round better than a 1:7. And 55 grain seems to be easier to come by than most other rounds(and a little cheaper).And me not having shot a 1:7 twist was unsure if it was a huge difference or just something you notice at 300 plus yards or at all.
The only reason why i wanted a 1:8 twist was i was under the impression that it stabilized a 55 grain round better than a 1:7. And 55 grain seems to be easier to come by than most other rounds(and a little cheaper).And me not having shot a 1:7 twist was unsure if it was a huge difference or just something you notice at 300 plus yards or at all.
I don't have any problem with 55 grn rounds in a 1/7 twist barrel, and I've heard of others shooting lower weight rounds without issue (but never done it myself, for the lower weight rounds around here are generally varmint loads that cost more than 55-62grn rounds)
The only reason why i wanted a 1:8 twist was i was under the impression that it stabilized a 55 grain round better than a 1:7. And 55 grain seems to be easier to come by than most other rounds(and a little cheaper).And me not having shot a 1:7 twist was unsure if it was a huge difference or just something you notice at 300 plus yards or at all.
55 grain will work in anything from 1:7 to 1:12.
1:7 or 1:8, won't matter much in a fighting carbine. Both should stabilize bullets up to about the 77-80 gr range.
As for barrel life between a SS barrel & unlined chrome moly, it depends. Chrome moly will erode evenly over time and groups will slowly open up. Stainless will hold it's accuracy longer, but instead of eroding slowly, it will suddenly have pieces of the rifling give way. Not big pieces, but SS barrels tend to lose accuracy suddenly. By the time either barrel looses accuracy enough to matter, congratulations! You've put several thousand rounds through it and it's time for a new barrel.
Chrome lining the chamber & bore of a chrome moly barrel will extend it's life. Maybe the chrome lining will hurt accuracy some, but it's likely to only be a half MOA or maybe a full MOA on a good barrel, if that much. That means your groups might be as much as a half inch larger at 50 yards.
You can spend a lot of time agonizing over barrel choices, but a 1:7 or 1:8 twist will work fine for just about any bullet that can be loaded in the case and still fit in the magazine.
As for material, 4140 Chrome moly is ok, 4150 Chrome moly Vanadium is better and what is specified by the military and chrome lining either will increase barrel life.
For stainless steel barrels, 416 SS is the most common with a few being made from 410 which is supposed to be better. Lothar-Walther lists their SS as LW50 which I suspect (but have no hard evidence to support this) is a Lothar-Walther designation for the 410 alloy.
Any barrel made from any of the above materials will serve you well. Just choose one cut to the right length & profile for the job. (A bull barrel profile will not make for a light, fast handling carbine, for example)
as for the barrel length i am not sure yet. I was think 18" because it is right in the middle with 16" and the 20". Kind of like having best of both worlds. Or would the 18" not improve accuracy that much.
as for the barrel length i am not sure yet. I was think 18" because it is right in the middle with 16" and the 20". Kind of like having best of both worlds. Or would the 18" not improve accuracy that much.
18" is a compromise of a compromise. It's slightly too short to have the full advantage of a 20" and slightly too long to actually be a carbine. You really aren't losing much by going to a 16". There also aren't quite as many choices in profiles in the 18" range.
ETA: This is in regard to ballistics.
as for the barrel length i am not sure yet. I was think 18" because it is right in the middle with 16" and the 20". Kind of like having best of both worlds. Or would the 18" not improve accuracy that much.
Barrel length doesn't determine accuracy. It's the quality of the barrel, short or long
Im sure you meant chrome lined 4150, and yes it will last longer than stainless SS410 in general. Barrel life is always dependent on heat.
1:7 is the standard because it will shoot any weight 5.56 bullet, and it's the official spec. No real reason to look for 1:8, it works a little better for some people doing hand loads but eh...
Actually, I meant just a non-chrome lined chrome moly barrel compared to a SS barrel, but you're right, most folks would be best served with chrome lining their barrel to ensure reliability and longevity. Also, good point on barrel heat. That really is the driving factor from what I understand i.e. how hard a person runs their gun.
MistWolf covered the addition of chrome lining on a chrome moly barrel up above.
Thanks for all the feed back i am sure to asking more questions soon.
Thanks for all the feed back i am sure to asking more questions soon.
Please do - you're at the right place for it. You got some solid advice in this thread.
If your upper keeps giving you trouble, you *could* sell it at a show and use the proceeds to buy a different one.
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