View Full Version : The ol' Switcheroo
jmlshooter
05-11-11, 09:24
How commonly is this happening with our local gun stores and vendors at gun shows?
There was a thread here a while back about someone buying a DD rifle at a show and later realizing after he got home that he had a non-DD BCG in it.
Well, I was at a local gun store in Dallas, and they had what looked like a nice DD rifle sitting out on the counter. I picked it up, and there was no eponymous "DD" stamp on the exposed portion of the BCG. Moreover, there was marring where the upper receiver met the rail system, and it looked like the finish had been worn off by rubbing metal on metal.
I asked, "Is this a used rifle?"
"Nope, brand new."
"Then what's this? [pointing to receiver and rail]"
"Oh, that's just grease. They come to us just like that."
I mean, really?
So, my question is a little bit bigger: How does someone like me [a non-SME] figure out whether I'm picking up the real McCoy? Thanks to this site, I know how to identify whether the carrier key is properly staked, but what else can I do?
Doc Safari
05-11-11, 09:27
I don't know that you can ever know you are getting the real thing unless you buy from a reputable dealer, and preferably have that dealer order the gun for you.
There are just too many people out there building and/or modifying AR's for me to ever be comfortable thinking I'm getting a 100% factory gun at a gun show.
jmlshooter
05-11-11, 09:30
Yeah, so when you go to a gun show, you have:
1. The outright frauds everyone knows are frauds (the Korean knock-off Eotechs and Surefires and Aimpoints, etc.)
2. The outright frauds you can't identify (the people switching AR components and subtly trying to pass them off as the real deal)
3. The people who sell crap to people who don't care if they buy crap (very low-end ARs and AR components)
4. The trusted vendor (1/50).
It's challenging to navigate, and I definitely would not be able to do that without this site.
To be blunt:
Don't buy it at a Gun Show. If you want a legit product, buy it direct or from a reputable dealer (Rainier, Grant, etc). I don't know about your gun shows, but the ones up here usually don't have prices that are much better than what you can find online.
I've given up on all the gunshows in my area. Too many shady sellers and for the dealers that are legit you might as well just go to their store, where you don't have to pay to walk in the door.
How commonly is this happening with our local gun stores and vendors at gun shows?
There was a thread here a while back about someone buying a DD rifle at a show and later realizing after he got home that he had a non-DD BCG in it.
Well, I was at a local gun store in Dallas, and they had what looked like a nice DD rifle sitting out on the counter. I picked it up, and there was no eponymous "DD" stamp on the exposed portion of the BCG. Moreover, there was marring where the upper receiver met the rail system, and it looked like the finish had been worn off by rubbing metal on metal.
I asked, "Is this a used rifle?"
"Nope, brand new."
"Then what's this? [pointing to receiver and rail]"
"Oh, that's just grease. They come to us just like that."
I mean, really?
So, my question is a little bit bigger: How does someone like me [a non-SME] figure out whether I'm picking up the real McCoy? Thanks to this site, I know how to identify whether the carrier key is properly staked, but what else can I do?
I have seen this a lot. It is ONE of the reasons why companies like BCM mark EVERYTHING with the "BCM" logo (as it protects you the consumer).
It is common for these guys to buy a barrel, upper receiver or lower receiver and then add whatever parts to the gun. I had one instance where a customer brought me in their "S&W" AR. The lower RECEIVER was S&W, but nothing else was. The internal parts in the lower weren't even from S&W (so they bought it stripped and filled it with crap). Luckily for this guy, I knew everything about the S&W AR and was able to tell him what was legit and what wasn't.
The moral of the story is to buy from dealers that are KNOWN dealers or distributors for products and have a long history of being honest.
C4
Yeah, so when you go to a gun show, you have:
1. The outright frauds everyone knows are frauds (the Korean knock-off Eotechs and Surefires and Aimpoints, etc.)
2. The outright frauds you can't identify (the people switching AR components and subtly trying to pass them off as the real deal)
3. The people who sell crap to people who don't care if they buy crap (very low-end ARs and AR components)
4. The trusted vendor (1/50).
It's challenging to navigate, and I definitely would not be able to do that without this site.
Yet one more reason not to go to gun shows.
In my neck of the woods, the "good" dealers don't even bother with gun shows. It costs them too much to transport, set up and move inventory to justify shutting down their shop for the weekend. The dealers populating the shows often do not have a storefront and are selling Model 1 uppers or homebrews on Spikes lowers. The few that actually sell factory guns, are overpriced. I go to a couple of shows a year, but never to buy a gun. I'm usually looking for ammo or just killing time. If I need a gun or accessories, I go with guys like Grant. Hell, I can't even find reasonably priced pmags at the local shows.
Evil1969SS>LS6
05-11-11, 14:13
Shit, last gunshow I went to I brought a DD 10" Lite rail to try and sell and went to one of those "Know-it-all" AR vendor pricks, and the fool told me he wouldn't even have a DD rail on his table because they over-heat and are too light!? I guess his heavy ass "Legion Arms" and UTG rails mounted on full-auto DPMS's can take the heat...:rolleyes:
I've given up on all the gunshows in my area. Too many shady sellers and for the dealers that are legit you might as well just go to their store, where you don't have to pay to walk in the door.
I from the same area and haven't been to one in Jax since 2006..it's a joke around here..
How commonly is this happening with our local gun stores and vendors at gun shows?
There was a thread here a while back about someone buying a DD rifle at a show and later realizing after he got home that he had a non-DD BCG in it.
Well, I was at a local gun store in Dallas, and they had what looked like a nice DD rifle sitting out on the counter. I picked it up, and there was no eponymous "DD" stamp on the exposed portion of the BCG. Moreover, there was marring where the upper receiver met the rail system, and it looked like the finish had been worn off by rubbing metal on metal.
I asked, "Is this a used rifle?"
"Nope, brand new."
"Then what's this? [pointing to receiver and rail]"
"Oh, that's just grease. They come to us just like that."
I mean, really?
So, my question is a little bit bigger: How does someone like me [a non-SME] figure out whether I'm picking up the real McCoy? Thanks to this site, I know how to identify whether the carrier key is properly staked, but what else can I do?
Sounds like someone bought a DD receiver and built a rifle out of it and call it a DD. It's made from a DD receiver, right? Pretty common whether at the Fun Show, online vendor or being sold on the EE.
While marking everything they make with the BCM logo, the real reason it's done is to protect BCM. It's to keep some shyster from going to BCM for warrantee claims when the part was made by somebody else.
While all of this makes it frustrating for the uninformed, I find it to be entertaining to go to the fun show and search for treasures among the junk and I'm always learning something, even when I get took.
The best way to keep from being sold a bill of goods is to stick with known companies, because they will always make it right. If you want to haunt the "bargain bins" only knowledge, experience, good instincts and a healthy dose of luck will help you
I from the same area and haven't been to one in Jax since 2006..it's a joke around here..
I went to one a few months ago at the Morocco Shrine Auditorium and that pretty much cured me. The only halfway decent table there was from Shooters on University (I don't know how you feel about them - they stock alot of ARs, but mostly brands I would not buy). I should have just gone to their store for free.
Does Gun Gallery on Beach Blvd even bother with gun shows? I don't think I've ever seen them at one.
.
Buying a used AR is risky.
There are a few makers that mark some of their parts but they are kind of few and far between. I think more of the top makers will mark more of their parts in the future...they almost have to.
The only top-tier maker's parts that I have seen with ID marks are: Colt, DD, BCM, LMT, and Noveske. There maybe more but that's all that I have seen.
Colt probably ID's the majority of their parts and the others just hit or miss marking the main parts like the BCG, Upper, HG, and I've been told LMT marks trigger parts.
I had a rep at Noveske tell me that it is pretty common for them to get a problematic rifle back and they find that the parts have been swapped out. That's got to be a disappointing...
But maybe it's just me...
.
I buddy of mine almost traded his 6920 the other day for what we both think is a fake DD rifle. The upper and lower receivers were both marked but the 12.0 FSP Omega X did not have any markings, the barrel was just marked 1/7 C MP and the BCG did not have the DD on it. I don’t think the early DD BCGs were marked but the blank rail and the barrel markings would be enough to scare me away.
The guy said that he bought it from a gun show dealer as a factory built DD rifle but my buddy had enough sense to walk away from the deal.
These scams are the one reason I like the fact that some companies mark their products. I guess if a person wanted to take the time and invest the money they could fake the DD, BCM, and other markings that manufacturers use but most probably just rely on people not knowing any better.
It is ONE of the reasons why companies like BCM mark EVERYTHING with the "BCM" logo (as it protects you the consumer).
Early BCM BCGs were unmarked, but I would only trust a confirmed reliable source if getting one.
^^^^^^^^^
Good point.
I purchased one of the earlier unmarked BCM BCGs.
Grant does bring up a good point; purchase from known and trusted dealers and/or distributors. That is the route I have taken since my first firearm purchase. I sometimes pay more, but in the end it's all about trust.
I buddy of mine almost traded his 6920 the other day for what we both think is a fake DD rifle. The upper and lower receivers were both marked but the 12.0 FSP Omega X did not have any markings, the barrel was just marked 1/7 C MP and the BCG did not have the DD on it. I don’t think the early DD BCGs were marked but the blank rail and the barrel markings would be enough to scare me away.
The guy said that he bought it from a gun show dealer as a factory built DD rifle but my buddy had enough sense to walk away from the deal.
These scams are the one reason I like the fact that some companies mark their products. I guess if a person wanted to take the time and invest the money they could fake the DD, BCM, and other markings that manufacturers use but most probably just rely on people not knowing any better.
I have one of the earlier DDM4 rifles with the non-CHF barrel purchased from Scottsdale Gun Club. I walked in and bought it. The barrel is stamped "DD 4150 MP 5.56 NATO 1/7" towards the part of the barrel closer to the barrel nut. The 12.0 FSP OmegaX was also marked, but I've since sold it so I don't have the exact writing on it. The BCG was not marked "DD" and the bolt wasn't marked HP or MP.
It happened to me with the first 6920 I bought years ago. The BCG was definitely not colt. At the time I didn't know what to look for. Now I do but there are still low lifes out there.
I understand why BCM marks their stuff but I wish they'd be a tad more low-key about it (or put it on the left side of the BCG). I feel like my rifles are turning into billboards.
wetidlerjr
05-12-11, 08:48
To be blunt: Don't buy it at a Gun Show. If you want a legit product, buy it direct or from a reputable dealer (Rainier, Grant, etc). I don't know about your gun shows, but the ones up here usually don't have prices that are much better than what you can find online.
...The moral of the story is to buy from dealers that are KNOWN dealers or distributors for products and have a long history of being honest.
C4
The long and the short of it. :agree:
I only go to see. There is only one dealer that is reputable with great prices but all the dealers buy him out before they show opens and then sell his stuff at their table. Kind of like the guys that go to Walmart to buy ammo then sell up for a profit at the show.
I understand why BCM marks their stuff but I wish they'd be a tad more low-key about it (or put it on the left side of the BCG). I feel like my rifles are turning into billboards.
I agree.
Back when complete BCG's were all sold out, I purchased this BCM carrier key to go with an extra BCM bolt I had bought as a back up.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20carrier%20with%20gas%20key.htm
It wasnt marked "BCM". Just out of curiosity, is it only the complete BCG's that come marked?
wetidlerjr
05-12-11, 18:17
Back when complete BCG's were all sold out, I purchased this BCM carrier key to go with an extra BCM bolt I had bought as a back up.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20carrier%20with%20gas%20key.htm
It wasnt marked "BCM". Just out of curiosity, is it only the complete BCG's that come marked?
That is what I understand.
nobody knows
05-12-11, 22:30
I understand why BCM marks their stuff but I wish they'd be a tad more low-key about it (or put it on the left side of the BCG). I feel like my rifles are turning into billboards.
It would be nice if they did,but that's obviously one of the major factors if not the main factor. It's free advertisement plane and simple. if they where real worried about counterfeit part's they would be more discrete about it. You could make the case that they just want people to be able to know without a doubt that the part is genuine,but everything is faked nowadays it's a simple fact of life wen you make an exceptional product.
I don't care for the "billboard" type of advertising ether. But IV never herd of anyone say this about their pistol.
Sorry for the detailing of the thread. On topic- I had a Guy try to sell me an "LMT" for $1800 that had a bushmaster "dissy" upper and utg rail. Wen I asked him about it he told me get ready for it.....a "seal" ordered it that way from the factory. And he chose the utg rail for its lightweight and superior heat distribution.and that the dissy was designed by the seal's,so the could shoot it underwater.O and the reason it's called a dissipator is because it dissipates the water??? No more gun show Jack A$$es for me. Although you do here some very "interesting facts" about firearms.
It would be nice if they did,but that's obviously one of the major factors if not the main factor. It's free advertisement plane and simple. if they where real worried about counterfeit part's they would be more discrete about it. You could make the case that they just want people to be able to know without a doubt that the part is genuine,but everything is faked nowadays it's a simple fact of life wen you make an exceptional product.
As someone that is very close to the owner of BCM, I can tell you that you are wrong. While EVERY company want's people to know it is there weapon, the MAIN REASON is so that people know that they got the real deal. Laser engraving is cheap and easy. Stamping BCM into metal is not (especially when you have to buy everything to do it).
C4
I don't care for the "billboard" type of advertising ether. But IV never herd of anyone say this about their pistol.
Well my pistol isn't covered with laser engraving from four different manufacturers... I wouldn't mind so much my rifles being covered like a Nascar if I were sponsored like the drivers :laugh:
I don't care for the "billboard" type of advertising ether. But IV never herd of anyone say this about their pistol.
Agreed with the first point, but my USP doesn't have the billboard effect since it's etched rather than painted, stamped, whatever. Also, I don't mind the BCM stamp on my BCG because it's fairly low key. I do mind the high contrast stampings on just about everything else they make, along with all the other gratuitous stampers.
Sorta on topic, I don't trust anyone at a gun show or any of my local shops. The only thing I or anyone I know bought at a gun show that came with zero regret was a brick of 5.56mm ammo. As far as my local gun shop, when I picked up the Saiga they FFL'd for me they said they had to remove the bullet button to shoot it. I said, "Well why the hell were you shooting it anyway?" "Oh we test fire everything that comes in our shop." I hope they wrapped their sandwiches in the anti-corrosion packing paper too.
....Laser engraving is cheap and easy. Stamping BCM into metal is not (especially when you have to buy everything to do it).
C4
=============================================
Grant,
Laser engraving being cheap is part of the problem. Unscrupulous individuals will engrave no-name BCG's with top-tier names and reap good profits.
It is hard to beat an "expensive" stamping under the part's finish but I reckon these same individuals can stamp a "C" or "N", put a little finish over the top of it, and sell it to the naive. But this will be less likely than a simple laser etching.
Guess you nailed it with your Post #6…
…..
The moral of the story is to buy from dealers that are KNOWN dealers or distributors for products and have a long history of being honest.
C4
.
=============================================
Grant,
Laser engraving being cheap is part of the problem. Unscrupulous individuals will engrave no-name BCG's with top-tier names and reap good profits.
It is hard to beat an "expensive" stamping under the part's finish but I reckon these same individuals can stamp a "C" or "N", put a little finish over the top of it, and sell it to the naive. But this will be less likely than a simple laser etching.
Guess you nailed it with your Post #6…
.
I have NEVER (to date) seen anyone go to this level (laser engraving a companies logo onto something for re-sale).
C4
I have NEVER (to date) seen anyone go to this level (laser engraving a companies logo onto something for re-sale).
C4
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I was referring to faked Aimpoints, EOTechs, ACOGs, etc. The ones I have seen are laser'd like crazy, with little or no stampings.
Heck, in my industry, (gas turbines) "they" fake and false-stamp graded nuts and bolts...
I'd be willing to bet, it's just a matter of time before countefeited gun components show up at gun shows...like the Aimpoints, EOTechs, etc.
.
==========================================
I was referring to faked Aimpoints, EOTechs, ACOGs, etc. The ones I have seen are laser'd like crazy, with little or no stampings.
Heck, in my industry, (gas turbines) "they" fake and false-stamp graded nuts and bolts...
I'd be willing to bet, it's just a matter of time before countefeited gun components show up at gun shows...like the Aimpoints, EOTechs, etc.
.
Oh, ok gotcha. Ya I have seen fake Eotech's, Aimpoint's and ACOG's passed off as the real deal.
C4
yhmspecter
05-13-11, 14:08
Gunshows up in NH are the same.. old guys with classic weapons and nothing current and deff no AR related anything I just don't get how people can eff someone over and sleep at night.
You guys complaining that the BCM logo is too bright or too noticeable, need to run your guns and dirty them up a bit. Haven't seen my BCM logo for a few months :D:sarcastic:
On a serious note: Gun shows for me are just for exercise. Ammo overpriced, guns built for delta force with UTG parts, etc etc.
Plus I'm hoping to become a you-tube millionaire when i catch a ND on video :p
nobody knows
05-13-11, 17:32
As someone that is very close to the owner of BCM, I can tell you that you are wrong. While EVERY company want's people to know it is there weapon, the MAIN REASON is so that people know that they got the real deal. Laser engraving is cheap and easy. Stamping BCM into metal is not (especially when you have to buy everything to do it).
C4
First off I wasn't even talking about BCM specifically.
Second I'm not wrong just because you know the owner and you feel you need to speak for him.
Third I said ONE OF THE FACTOR'S *IF* NOT THE MAIN FACTOR. I did not say that BCM(or any other company for that matter) is am evil sole less advertising machine.
And finally if all they truly care about is making sure their customers know they are getting a genuine product then why don't put the logo on the left side? I bet it's because it servers a duel purpose.
knoxtnshooter
05-13-11, 22:35
Maybe my over zealous team leader has gotten into my head, but the BCM logo on my BCG doesn't bother me since my dust cover is closed 99.9% of the time.
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