Why aren't there any decent matches for ARs? [Archive]

wild_wild_wes

10-07-07, 16:31

Sure, ARs are used in 3-gun matches, but the AR is so versatile that I'd like to see a match where all that is used are ARs, or similar assault rifles, but I've yet to see such a competition.

This seems to be a big hole in the shooting sports. The AR can shoot well out to 500 yards, but not many owners ever shoot theirs past 100 yards, I'm willing to bet. One reason is that there are no matches designed around them. Sure there are Carbine Classes, but those are not an activity that most can attend regularly. If you don't train with your AR regularly, how are you to become or remain proficient? 3 gun matches are okay I guess, but not everybody is interested in pistols or shotguns, or both. Precision matches are okay and have their place, but the distances typically shot are well beyond the AR envelope, or even realistic real-world scenarios, and of course a precision rifle is useless at close ranges. ARs can do everything the regular guy is likely to need.

I tried to work up interest in a local AR shooting league last year with little success.

Robb Jensen

10-07-07, 16:35

Many USPSA matches have 'side matches'. Blackwater has one this month (3rd Sunday). It's a stage where it's ONLY rifle, simple rules USPSA scoring and you're either Open class or Limited (scope or irons).

rob_s

10-07-07, 17:34

I run a local carbine match. We're limited to a 100 yard range, so the longest shots we can make are 130 yards+/- shooting diagonally. I try to make up for the lack of distance by having people shoot our 4" steel. :D

Everyone's tastes are different. If you design a match too much around your particular wants you'll be shooting alone very quickly. By the same token, if you're the one running it you should get to shoot it how you want to. As an example, I have gotten pressure from time to time from people that want to turn it into 3-gun and add shotgun, but I'm not doing it.

We do mostly CQB distances, and we try to work in reloads and transitions where possible. We run 3 stages per match, and as a rule of thumb I try to make one include a reload and one include a transition. I also try to work in at least one drills stage, and at least one with some kind of "surprise".

For example, a "surprise" stage we had last year was shot from the back of a moving trailer pulled behind an SUV. There were targets painted red and an equal number painted green. At the start of the stage you flipped a coin to determine the color that you were to engage, with the other color becoming non-threats. It was tons of fun, and everyone really enjoyed themselves.

We've also done drills stages where we shot the same basic stage; once with a reload and once with a transition.

We've done team stages with the steel at 130 yards and a scattering of cardboard at 25 yards and less with one shooter playing the "sniper" and shooting at the steel and the other providing cover by shooting the cardboard closer in.

I suggest you get yourself involved with your local IDPA or IPSC club and try to get them to run some kind of side matches. That is kind of how ours evolved.

nationwide

10-07-07, 21:14

You mean like the Wimbledon Cup? :rolleyes:

wild_wild_wes

10-07-07, 21:47

GunnFixr

10-08-07, 02:11

I tried to work up interest in a local AR shooting league last year with little success.

Could be that some folks in CA don't want to take their ARs out of hiding.

Check out www.actshooters.com

80% of the folks shooting these matches ar running ARs.

nationwide

10-08-07, 08:15

No, I mean the exact opposite of the Wimbledon Cup, or any such abstract quest for "points".

I want an event that puts holes in paper. Not one where people vie for meaningless, arbitrary "points".

Holes in paper as in human-shaped targets succesfully hit, hit anywhere.

But I seem to be in the minority in that respect. Most if not all matches revolve around generating lists of who is better than who; in the more popular of these follies gew-gaws are given away to the golden boys.

I'd be happy taking home a set of targets with holes in them.

The natural disposition of someone who participates in any event that is organized is to try to do better than the dude or dudette standing next to them...

If you subscribe to the "Only hits count" philosophy, then perhaps organized shooting matches are not for you?

UVvis

10-08-07, 13:29

The natural disposition of someone who participates in any event that is organized is to try to do better than the dude or dudette standing next to them...

I would have to respectfully disagree on that one. When I am shooting I am generally trying to improve my skill set and have fun. I really don't care where my scores fall. I generally don't have the time to train or compete on the same level as some of the other folk, nor do I really have a desire to.

wild_wild_wes

10-08-07, 15:06

Competition and social heirarchy are inseperable from the human condition.

But I would like to see a match that doesn't turn into a race for points. Of course it would be scored, but only in terms of targets engaged and hit, so theoretically several shooters could end up being "#1". Depending on the course of fire though, speed would be emphesized, so there is always the clock to beat. Scores would help you see where you are in relation to others, and how your skill level evolves over time.

Another thing I would ban would be restrictions on firing positions, which is one of the things that annoy me about the matches I have been to. Too artificial; too contrived IMHO. Let the shooter pick his own way of doing things.

rob_s

10-08-07, 15:22

We only restrict firing positions for safety and/or for "drills" stages. If the point is to shoot prone, kneeling, standing from 3 positions then you're going to have to shoot from those positions. :D Otherwise the shooter is free to take a knee, shoot standing, whatever, so long as it is safe and doesn't result in rounds leaving the range.

Our scoring is intended to reward accuracy over speed and to reflect the real-world implications of shooting a friendly or missing a threat; either one gets you penalized 30 seconds.

We use standard IDPA targets. To neutralize a target, you need at least 2 shots in the -0 or at least 3 shots in the -1 or better. -3 don't count for anything. In other words, you can have one COM and one headshot and the target is "neutralized", or you can have one COM and two -1 for the same result. Targets are score as either neutralized or not. It makes scoring very quick, and allows even the most inexperienced of our shooters to help score.

Renegade

10-08-07, 15:54

I would have to respectfully disagree on that one. When I am shooting I am generally trying to improve my skill set and have fun. I really don't care where my scores fall.

How do you know if you are improving your skill set if you do not use some form of measurement?

UVvis

10-08-07, 17:46

How do you know if you are improving your skill set if you do not use some form of measurement?

That isn't exactly what I said. You obviously need some sort of measurement system to gauge yourself.

rob_s

10-08-07, 18:57

That isn't exactly what I said. You obviously need some sort of measurement system to gauge yourself.

Isn't that redundant? Of course you do. Even if you just want to measure your own improvement from match to match, you still need some kind of scoring system to do so.

wild_wild_wes

10-08-07, 22:04

We only restrict firing positions for safety and/or for "drills" stages. If the point is to shoot prone, kneeling, standing from 3 positions then you're going to have to shoot from those positions. :D Otherwise the shooter is free to take a knee, shoot standing, whatever, so long as it is safe and doesn't result in rounds leaving the range.

Safety, of course. That is more applicable in "close-in" shooting. But if targets were engaged at longer ranges (200-500 meters), then the shooter should choose his best stance. If the targets were to stay up only a short time, you might loose shooting time deploying a bipod and going prone...but that should be the shooter's call.

Our scoring is intended to reward accuracy over speed and to reflect the real-world implications of shooting a friendly or missing a threat; either one gets you penalized 30 seconds.

Shooting freindlies should be discouraged!

We use standard IDPA targets. To neutralize a target, you need at least 2 shots in the -0 or at least 3 shots in the -1 or better. -3 don't count for anything. In other words, you can have one COM and one headshot and the target is "neutralized", or you can have one COM and two -1 for the same result. Targets are score as either neutralized or not. It makes scoring very quick, and allows even the most inexperienced of our shooters to help score.

That sounds sensible.

rob_s

10-09-07, 03:34

you might loose shooting time deploying a bipod and going prone

Bipods are the only prohibited accessory so far. :)

We also require that you use the same gun for the whole match, and that whatever accessories you have attached to the gun on the first stage remain on the gun for the entire match. In other words, you don't get to shoot the lowlight CQB stage with a light and an Aimpoint, and then change to a 10x and for the long-range stage.

blackscot

10-09-07, 06:36

Many USPSA matches have 'side matches'.......

Templar and I were doing this for a few years at our local monthly IDPA match, but it was alternating rifle one month/shotgun the next (we like both:D ). Some folks would show up for one and not the other, but it was usually the same crowd everytime just wanting something beyond the handgun-only venue.

Sadly, had to give it up this year due to a combination of factors.:(

I run a local carbine match......

Rob, your set-up sounds outstanding! Were I down there I would be a regular participant.:cool: Keep up the great work!

Robb Jensen

10-09-07, 08:01

Templar and I were doing this for a few years at our local monthly IDPA match, but it was alternating rifle one month/shotgun the next (we like both:D ). Some folks would show up for one and not the other, but it was usually the same crowd everytime just wanting something beyond the handgun-only venue.

Sadly, had to give it up this year due to a combination of factors.:(

Randy/Tim,
If Cavalier does go back to holding side matches (both) please let me know. I enjoy their IDPA matches but that's a long way to go for me just to shoot an IDPA match, the side matches were a much bigger incentive to head down there.

Robb

TOrrock

10-09-07, 09:22

Not to hijack, but I think both Randy and I got burned out running these things, it's a lot of effort, with (usually) very little help, and the while we did get help from the IDPA bigwigs, it was usually given very grudgingly.

I like rob_s' scoring, that sounds like a very effective, no hassle way to do it, and when someone like myself is math challenged, anything that makes scoring simple and fast, while maintaining a degree of realism, is welcome.

Sadly, the IDPA program is hurting at Cavalier since all the concessions we had to agree to with the county.

blackscot

10-09-07, 12:28

Not to hijack, but I think both Randy and I got burned out running these things, it's a lot of effort, with (usually) very little help, and the while we did get help from the IDPA bigwigs, it was usually given very grudgingly......

It would have been more do-able for me last year except:
(1) all side matches were permanently exciled to the back range to appease the noise-sensitive neighbors,
(2) all stage equipment (steel, barricades,etc.) was still stored at the opposite end of the property, requiring multiple pick-up truck loads before even setting up, and then all back again after a long day running shooters and tearing down, and
(3) a marked decline in "bigwig" support upon transfer of the IDPA part of the match to new leadership that year (policy implied to me "It's not my problem -- go away.")

.....Sadly, the IDPA program is hurting at Cavalier since all the concessions we had to agree to with the county.

Sundays suffer from the 3-pm cut-off. If they were to move it to Saturday, it could run until sunset.

.....that's a long way to go for me just to shoot an IDPA match, the side matches were a much bigger incentive to head down there.....

Even the IDPA part has been reduced in scope, again as a result of the change in "vision". A lot of folks no longer come, even for pistol only (me included).

.....If Cavalier does go back to holding side matches (both) please let me know.....

I miss it as much as anyone. The back range is planned to be re-built in the coming year, with all matches (and match-gear strorage) re-located there upon completion. If an improvement in "bigwig" support can then be mustered, I may entertain the possibility of getting some kind of action rifle and shotgun going again. Such an advent would be posted prominently here and elsewhere.

To get pre-hijcak and back on-topic, these are the kinds of things that could account for there not being more rifle matches.

wild_wild_wes

10-09-07, 21:28

AirSoft seems to be more popular than Practical Carbine meets :(

Mr. Sush

10-10-07, 13:41

AirSoft seems to be more popular than Practical Carbine meets :(

Take a few days off and go to one of the shoots that Colorado Multi-Gun puts on at Camp Guernsey, WY. You'll get to shoot your AR as far as you ever want to....

Robb Jensen

10-10-07, 17:39

Found this on the Enos forums, it's quite intriguing.

"Competition, is a crucial part of the process, in the mastery of a
chosen art. Its a demonstration, by the practitioner, that his path,
his way in the journey of that mastery was either correct, or in need
of further refinement.

Classes are fine, their purpose is to suggest the way, through the
shared experience of a master. They indicate right direction, encourage
discipline, and a process to practice. But in the case of arms, in the
end you must take what you see, what you hear, what you read, and what
you experience and turn it into your own way. It is ultimately your
endeavor, and to stand in the arena before others, and demonstrate your
way reveals to all and mainly yourself whether you put your faith in
the truth or just a facade of smoke.

To deny yourself the opportunity to experience such an aspect of the
journey is a mistake."---unknown

blackscot

10-11-07, 06:05

I met Brian at one of the USPSA Nationals at Fredericksburg, quite awhile ago now (1995 I think). Really good guy. Some of his writing can get a little on the cosmic side, but has lots of more practical stuff too.

......"Competition, is.....a demonstration......either correct, or in need of further refinement.

i.e. good way to tell what works and what doesn't (if it can go wrong, it will at a match).

......turn it into your own way.....stand in the arena before others, and demonstrate your way reveals.....whether you put your faith in the truth or just a facade of smoke......

i.e. definitely NOT one-size-fits-all.

Robb Jensen

10-11-07, 07:36

I met Brian at one of the USPSA Nationals at Fredericksburg, quite awhile ago now (1995 I think). Really good guy. Some of his writing can get a little on the cosmic side, but has lots of more practical stuff too.

i.e. good way to tell what works and what doesn't (if it can go wrong, it will at a match).

i.e. definitely NOT one-size-fits-all.

Brian is an interesting guy........I used to think a lot of what he said was 'way out there' until I starting experiencing exactly what he was talking about.

A couple of other guys who are good at explaining/showing you what's going on with shooting is Saul Kirsch and Steve Anderson.

Here's some from Steve Anderson:

"The human body, especially under stress is very bad at measuring time. Therefore, trying to shoot fast is always (FOR ME) a bad idea.

Break the shots when the sights tell you to.

I have experienced beautiful, slow motion moments where the eyes spoke to the fingers and the brain just watched. Always a superior score.

Problem is, you can't make yourself do it. Thinking about not thinking is the same as thinking. (I think. )

Maybe this is meditating while shooting.

The other problem is, when you have some success at this whole shoot your pace idea, it's easy to start thinking that you've conquered some great obstacle and go out and hose one. Upon which the cycle re-starts.

Ah, the mental game.

On the holster/grip, I would suggest (after ditching a problem holster) 50 draws a night to a sight picture only, without pulling the trigger. Use a smallish target.
Your index will thank you.

The bullet doesn't care how good/bad your grip is, it goes where the sights tell it to go."

---SA

"Oh yeah, you probably are not wasting as much time as you think getting the sights aligned. "

blackscot

10-12-07, 08:31

Great stuff there!

".....I have experienced beautiful, slow motion moments where the eyes spoke to the fingers and the brain just watched.....

+1

Tim ran me through a shotgun stage a couple of years ago that was exactly like that. Everything seemed so.....automatic. I felt more like spectator than participant.

Must have made an impression on my RO. At the end he was grinning from ear-to-ear, looked at me and said simply "So how ya feelin' man?":cool:

I hardly knew how to respond.

wild_wild_wes

10-12-07, 22:26

rob_s

10-12-07, 22:33

Could you give us a quick outline of the carbine match you created?

I pretty much have as best as I can in previous posts in this thread. :D
Unfortunately our club website is undergoing reconstruction (for the last 6 months+ :mad: ) but the description posted on it before it was taken down pretty much covered what I outlined above.

I basically try to take things I learn in various training classes, both handgun and carbine, and incorporate them into the matches. I try to reinforce certain tactics through course design rather than by making up limits to how the stage can be shot or things of that nature. For example, I try to keep reloads with the rifle to stages 25 yards+, and do transitions at closer range. I also generally start the stages with downloaded magazines to force either a reload or a transition (or we just put out lots and lots of targets :D ). To keep people from "golfing" and changing guns or optics we'll try to include some close in and on-the-move targets into any stage that requires longer range shots.

wild_wild_wes

10-13-07, 16:10

Sounds like your course is mainly running and gunning, Rob. I'd like to see a match with that, plus a second half where shots are taken out to 500 yards or so.

rob_s

10-13-07, 17:42

Sounds like your course is mainly running and gunning, Rob. I'd like to see a match with that, plus a second half where shots are taken out to 500 yards or so.

I have somewhat mixed feelings about the longer range stuff. True, we are limited by our facility to shots under 100, and approximately 130 at most shooting diagonally, but I'm really fine with that. Shooting out to 500 may be fun for some, but the application in a "defensive" scenario is pretty much non-existent. Frankly, even 100 is probably pushing it in that case.

Barbara

10-14-07, 06:21

If there isn't one in your area, start one..the ACTS format Tony mentioned works great, and is primarily a carbine match.

Currently, there are matches only in Michigan and Arizona but there's no reason it can't be expanded. It also helps to have a standardized format.

ARs aren't required by any means but that's what the majority choose to use.

Tons of photos here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/resq47/collections/72157594587307207/

blackscot

10-17-07, 06:24

.....a second half where shots are taken out to 500 yards or so.

The BC3G matches near me are limited to 80 yards max, but include a stage with with minipoppers and other small steel at that distance to simulate longer range shots.

Which is very effective. My 4 MOA red dot basically hides these targets, which are left unpainted and splattered with lead that makes them hard to see in the first place. The shooter is usually allowed to go prone or brace against a barricade to help steady the aim. It's all still against the timer though, which does a lot to the opposite effect.

wild_wild_wes

10-20-07, 23:14

The natural disposition of someone who participates in any event that is organized is to try to do better than the dude or dudette standing next to them...

If you subscribe to the "Only hits count" philosophy, then perhaps organized shooting matches are not for you?

Oh, I see what you are saying now. You are absolutely right about this, Nationwide.

What I'm saying is I don't really care how some one else shoots any given day. If my target at the end of the day looks better than the last one I shot, that is good enough for me. But, outside of shooting in a match, it is difficult for one individual to get in good, meaningful practice/training.

The salient point is that there does not seem to be a middle ground between a "Match", and a "Training Course".

Matches of course are regulary scheduled events. Training Courses are one-off affairs; usually, one also progresses in skill levels from one course to the next. This is an unfortunate situation IMHO. In a Match, one competes against other shooters. In a course, instructors teach skills. There seems to me to be a missing third catagory; like a match, this new shooting event would be held regularly, but unlike a match the shooter would mainly be trying to beat his own scores, while enjoying the feedback of practicing with one's peers (who would in effect be the "instructors").

To quote John Maynard Keynes:

"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones."

Ekie

10-21-07, 00:32

The National Guard has a practical combat match, culminating in an international competition held annually just outside Little Rock. Think the last one was last weekend? It is a great course, starts at 500 yards, and goes down to 50 yards, at least it did last time I "played".

blackscot

10-22-07, 06:32

......the shooter would mainly be trying to beat his own scores, while enjoying the feedback of practicing with one's peers (who would in effect be the "instructors").......

This is exactly how the classification systems used by IPSC and IDPA work.

Robb Jensen

10-22-07, 11:06

This is exactly how the classification systems used by IPSC and IDPA work.

Exactly, you really only compete against others in your division and classification..........and really only against yourself since you can't keep another shooter from becoming a better shooter/competitor. There's no 'defense' like in football for example. If you don't practice it'll quickly show.

Here's some rifle stage pics from the Blackwater IPSC match yesterday. I had a miss on an IPSC target with the rifle. I shot my 10" gun for fun and was blazin' away (right at the edge of control), I had a very fast time but I don't know if I won it or not.

Team VA Arms member Luis G.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/luisrifle800.jpg

Team VA Arms member Dan L.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/danrifle800.jpg

Team VA Arms member Pat D.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/patrifle800.jpg

and me.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/robbsidematch800.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/robbsidematch2800.jpg

blackscot

10-22-07, 11:15

Outstanding Robb ! ! ! Great to see you all staying connected.

Man, I need more time, or a clone or sumthin'....:(

Am hoping to be freed-up enough in-time for BC3G's Nov. match. Skills should be thoroughly rusted by then.

kbhag

10-24-07, 21:14

No, I mean the exact opposite of the Wimbledon Cup, or any such abstract quest for "points".

I want an event that puts holes in paper. Not one where people vie for meaningless, arbitrary "points".

Holes in paper as in human-shaped targets succesfully hit, hit anywhere.

But I seem to be in the minority in that respect. Most if not all matches revolve around generating lists of who is better than who; in the more popular of these follies gew-gaws are given away to the golden boys.

I'd be happy taking home a set of targets with holes in them.

NTIT, National Trophy Infantry Team Match. Camp Perry, Ohio.

AKA: The Rattle Battle

AR15barrels

10-25-07, 03:05

3 gun matches are okay I guess, but not everybody is interested in pistols or shotguns, or both.

You should strive to be proficient with all 3 guns.
That's why 3 gun is the way to go.

Failure2Stop

10-25-07, 10:29

Wes-

If you are thinking what I think you are thinking, I absolutely agree.

I have been tinkering with a competition concept that I think is similar to your intent. My focus is on rifle/carbine and pistol. I am not a big fan of the shotgun for much more than ballistic breaching.

In order to give the competitior an accurate view of his skills, there must be a classification/division concept within the framework of the competition. I was thinking that the shooter must begin every stage in the same configuration, but once the buzzer sounds would be able to modify his lay-out to his choice for the stage. Everything you started the stage with must finish the stage on your person. Certain accessories would be prohibited, such as after-market magwells and competition-only muzzle breaks, but I think that the shooter should be permitted and encouraged to try different approaches to gear selection.

Close-range targets (<100 yd) would be paper, requiring a minimum of 2 shots to the anatomically correct region (upper thorax from clavical notch to zyphoid process, between the nipples) or one properly placed head-shot. Targets would not be limited to the fully-frontal targets we see all too often in competitions and courses.

Longer range targets (>100 yd) would mostly be reactive steel/polymer, requiring precision(ish) shot placement.

The only division between shooters would be sidearm or non-sidearm, allowing those armed with a pistol to engage close range (as their skill permits) targets with a pistol in the case of a stoppage or dry mag.

Just my perspective in tying competition back to real-world skills.

rob_s

10-25-07, 10:43

With a couple of very minor changes, you just described what we do. The changes would be...

1) Paper inside 25, rifle steel at 50 plus. Pasting paper outside of 25 yards just takes too long. We do also shoot poppers with the pistol from 15-25 yards as that is close enough to reset between shooters.
2) Scoring is 2 A-zone and 3 B-zone (-0 and -1 on an IDPA target respectively). This is mostly there to boost the round count a bit. Without it, you could conceivably finish a stage with 10 targets in 10 shots. Making people throw at least 2 at each target levels the playing field a bit.
3) If a stage calls for handgun, everyone uses handgun. This is due in part to the poppers being handgun-only, as well as to reinforce the difference between when you would reload and when you would transition. We design stages such that if out in the open and shooting at <25 yards you transition, but if shooting at distance from cover you reload.