View Full Version : Battle for light precision supremacy: The Recce Rifle Vs. The SPR
Trident has demonstrated that 53-55gr projectiles can still be quite accurate past 500m, more so that I would have intuitively guessed.
Working back off the assumption of unknown distance, variable weather conditions, not necessarily ideal shooting conditions, and repeatability becomes a more important item, as R2 has stated. Looking at the degree of preparation put into events like the Kenyathlon and Steel Safari, the preference for heavier longer projectiles is also evident, even with the somewhat increased drop on unknown distance targets, being able to buck wind is worth more, and even if the rifle is printing better groups with lighter rounds often the heavier one is chosen past ~600m (depending on caliber).
I'd say you're ahead of the curve of many idiots who insist that they need 77gr 262 in order to punch paper at 50yd (55gr blitz kings have been the best load for me accuracy wise, followed immediately by 69gr HPBT).
Please keep bringing back results either way, I personally would really like to see how the PPU 75gr stuff performs at longer distances (I've really only had the chance to shoot other loads at range through my rifles, and always burnt through my PPU up close before getting that far). I know it's not that tight by 100yd, but if it can still hold 1.5MOA at range then that would be valuable info to a lot of us.
TehLlama summed up exactly why I try to continually show results from the 55gr. bullet family....to dis way the notion that your precision SPR or Recce will blow up or not hit the broad side of a barn w/o the internet special..the 77gr. SMK. It is indeed the best LR pill for the job, however the silly ass internet had me fooled for a long time in regards to thinking that my big bad mil spec 1/7ths and 55gr. bullets would be like oil and vinegar and cause my bullets to disintegrate mid air, and obviously have a 5-10mph wind at 600-700yds blow my bullet to Mississippi or Georgia.
Let's just say if my Recce and SPR did not love to eat all types of ammo, and specifically in this case some of the 55gr. bullets, I would have been done with them a long time ago as I ultimately am about pulling triggers and shooting rifles, rather than training to be a civilian Navy Seal Sniper w. MK 262 mod 1/internet Long Range guru informing the masses their doing it wrong.
This is the 55gr. ammo that has been down the pipes of these two rifles of mine since I started this "Battle"....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00250-1.jpg
..the 77gr. SMK. It is indeed the best LR pill for the job
If this is the case then why are we even discussing this? If you believe that the 77gr SMK is the best bullet for this application, why does it piss you off when people tell you that you're doing it wrong by using something else? After all, you are choosing to use a less effective tool for the job. Seriously, I do not understand your attachment to the 55gr bullets.
The 77gr SMK and similar heavy bullets have quantifiable performance advantages over 55gr and other light bullets. Case in point: at 700 yards with a 10mph crosswind, the 55gr TSX at your posted velocities will drift about four feet more than the 77gr SMK at Mk262 velocities. As ra2bach points out, this means you can still make hits in higher winds or at longer ranges with the 77gr projectile. If your objective is to make hits, and you are choosing a load with inferior ballistics for no other reason than your belief that the 77gr SMK and/or Mk262 is overhyped, then I have to agree: you're doing it wrong.
This is the 55gr. ammo that has been down the pipes of these two rifles of mine since I started this "Battle"....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00250-1.jpg
Which proves what, exactly?
I don't discount accuracy at all and never meant to imply that I did.
It would be foolish to pick a less accurate round over another more accurate round. Even if the difference is 1/4 MOA.
I have the capability to reload but not .223. I just don't have time to reload the volume that I shoot and I'm not interested in buying a progressive loader. So I buy loaded ammo and since I'm a cheap bastard, I don't buy the top quality $1 per round stuff. If I did, I'm sure I'd get better results.
I have two loadings that I'm now shooting. PPU 75gr BTHP Match and IMI 55gr M193.
The 75gr PPU is far and away more accurate and less effected by wind at long range. I can get 8-10 inch groups at 440 yds with it using the 1.5x5 optic. If I had say a 12x optic I could do better than that.
The IMI opens on up to 12-14 inches but shoots flater and is more effected by wind.
I have to dial in 16 clicks for the 75gr PPU vs 10 for the 55gr IMI at 440yds. (1 click = 1/2" @ 100yds)
It's not like I'm not paying attention and I'm satisfied with the results of what I'm using.
guys, before we get too far away from the feed trough, the thread is about Recce vs SPR, and I apologize because I believe I was the one who started this side tangent.
Trident showed us he can get hits with the shorter bullets at distance and that's valuable information. I don't believe that is all of the story however, as the 53gr Amax has a BC of .290 while the 77 SMK has a BC of .362. Hornady has a 75gr BTHP they list @ .395. now, in the general scheme of things, ALL these bullets are pretty low BC's as the 1000 yd guys are looking for BC's starting with .5xx or better...
BC is a measure of how a bullet is affected by drag and wind. the bigger the number the more "slippery" it is. starting a bullet with a lower BC even at a higher speed, it's going to shed that speed pretty quick. this is pretty important as the distance (time of flight) gets longer, a bullet needs to stay above the speed of sound (supersonic) to be consistent. for instance, even the the 77gr SMK (well regarded at 600 yards), because of it's relatively low BC, is not a player at 1000 yds. even from longer barrels...
BC varies with velocity and Sierra lists the 77gr SMK BC below 3000 fps (above 3k it is listed @ .372) whereas the Vmax does not list velocity. I have no data to back this up, but it's entirely possible that the heavier bullets, started slower, would retain a higher speed on target and could possibly have better drop figures at long distance. with a lighter/lower BC bullet, a shooter might even have to dial in more elevation and for sure in a moderate wind, he's going to get eaten up, but in clear calm days, a lighter bullet may be "good enough"...
I guess the point of my whole hijack is that while a lighter/lower BC bullet may even be more accurate at a shorter distance than a heavier one, as time of flight (distance) increases, wind and drag will make this a less accurate choice.
but now back to the original thread, Trident also showed us that there are really no downsides to 16" vs the 18" barrel and for that I'm grateful.
If this is the case then why are we even discussing this? If you believe that the 77gr SMK is the best bullet for this application, why does it piss you off when people tell you that you're doing it wrong by using something else? After all, you are choosing to use a less effective tool for the job. Seriously, I do not understand your attachment to the 55gr bullets.
The 77gr SMK and similar heavy bullets have quantifiable performance advantages over 55gr and other light bullets. Case in point: at 700 yards with a 10mph crosswind, the 55gr TSX at your posted velocities will drift about four feet more than the 77gr SMK at Mk262 velocities. As ra2bach points out, this means you can still make hits in higher winds or at longer ranges with the 77gr projectile. If your objective is to make hits, and you are choosing a load with inferior ballistics for no other reason than your belief that the 77gr SMK and/or Mk262 is overhyped, then I have to agree: you're doing it wrong.
Which proves what, exactly?
Unreal, some here have totally put words in my mouth...please point to the place where I said 55gr. rds. were better than 77gr. smk's, or anything other than the simple fact that I shoot them along with a lot of other rds. through these guns with success.
Success isn't only using MK262 mod 1...it's completely relative to the individual ammo in question.
The pic doesn't prove shit, just like nothing does on the silly internet....one would hope that if I took the time and spent the treasure to shoot that quantity of ammo I depicted, it would have been achieving successful results in the manner I stated.
Last time I checked MK262 mod 1 just became commercially avail, and last time I checked the cost of it was high as balls on a giraffe. Good luck truly exploring this topic at $1.25 per trigger pull:)
NOTE TO THREAD.....shooting anything but a 5.56 77gr. SMK is doing it wrong, thereby I'm completely doing it wrong all the time, and as a result am enjoying the shit outta shooting these guns exponentially more by using all types of ammo vs. the super duper mk262 type.
Recce with TAP T2
http://i53.tinypic.com/28qwwvd.jpg(best group to date w/this rifle)
http://i52.tinypic.com/2r2wy6c.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/2ajox0l.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/2zyx55k.jpg
Recce w/ super duper MK262 Mod 1
http://i51.tinypic.com/10wru6p.jpg
Recce vs. SPR--In all honesty, I prefer a 16" barrel 5.56 mm, as it is the most versatile option, depending on what optic and ammunition is selected. As mentioned in another thread, Pat McNamara, the esteemed and extremely experienced SOF firearms instructor and combat veteran recently mentioned that he prefers a 5.56 mm DI 16” barrel AR15 with a long FF rail for the majority of his carbine use. If I need a longer barrel for a 5.56 mm, I would likely go with a 20" rather than an 18". Likewise, when going with a shorter barrel, I prefer going closer to 12" rather than 10" or 14.5".
Unreal, some here have totally put words in my mouth...please point to the place where I said 55gr. rds. were better than 77gr. smk's, or anything other than the simple fact that I shoot them along with a lot of other rds. through these guns with success.
Looking back at it now, especially after reading ra2bach's post, I was pretty harsh and had a bit of dogpile mentality going on. Sorry about that. I was just trying to figure out what the deal was with your ammo choices and point out the advantages of the heavier ammo. Didn't mean to help propel the train off the rails.
Success isn't only using MK262 mod 1...it's completely relative to the individual ammo in question.
I see where you're coming from.
NOTE TO THREAD.....shooting anything but a 5.56 77gr. SMK is doing it wrong, thereby I'm completely doing it wrong all the time, and as a result am enjoying the shit outta shooting these guns exponentially more by using all types of ammo vs. the super duper mk262 type.
Nah, the Hornady 75gr BTHP is good too. :p
No hurt feelings, and I perhaps should have stressed the fact that I strongly believe these two rifles should shoot a great deal of different .223/5.56 loads and thereby "enhancing" and traditional LEO or military type carbine in the accuracy dept. If these guns required only one type of ammo, they would only be practical for the military imho.
I saw a quote today on that magpul video, and while this might be cliche or whatever, it's exactly what this thread is all about for me, and it's truly the driving force for all the data, pics, and opinion Ive posted in it thus far.
"We're not trying to change the world, we're just trying to question everything" - Todd Hodnett
Thanks Doc for weighing in, I'm not sure if Pat was stressing the long FF rail or not in his reply, but I personally feel it's critical to these guns for a number of reasons. Just to touch on that again.
For those who wonder why go 13-14"....
1.) mounting the bipod as close to the end of the barrel is extremely advantageous when actually employing them. Each inch closer matters quite a bit imho.
2.) protects almost the entire length of the barrel(16") from rough handling, drops, bumps, etc. These are precision instruments in my book after all.
3.) When not using the bipod and shooting off hand, I find placing my lead grip as far forward as possible on a rail to be very beneficial for "driving" the rifle faster and with more control.
4.) in my case with monolithic chassis's this is very big, how it relates to your particular barrel nut/upper rec./rail setup will vary...that said, the more rail material you have on the rifle, the more heat dissipation will be occurring thereby reducing barrel temp's, and thereby retaining accuracy longer under sustained fire, as well as prolong the "match" barrel's life(doesn't really matter for the "service life")
Here is one of my very first recon builds.....
http://i52.tinypic.com/24etlio.jpg
After several years....recon turned full blown recce
http://i53.tinypic.com/2cwrl8p.jpg
Those two rifles believe it or not are completely different the way I see it and shoot them.
I think this is very important for me to post in this thread as it pertains to things I feel strongly about in regards to this topic and the fact that I post quite a bit of data or groups.
These are precision based rifles...they must be measured through tons of groups, thereby it's important to remember that I personally only believe in 10rd groups and the fact that I don't own nor will I ever own a SUB 1/2 MOA rifle like so many do on the internet.
Ask yourself the question after viewing the below test/pic...is my Recce a sub .5" rifle or is it in all reality a sub moa or inch rifle?
Groups were fired consecutively, and I allowed 10 sec. b/t each rd. fired from shot to shot, and group to group.
http://i52.tinypic.com/14dov4i.jpg
A half day affair w/ a precision AR....
Shot in HD via 4 camera setups:
1.) Nightforce reticle cam in 720p HD(brand new addition)
2.) 25x 1080p HD trace cam
3.) 60x 480p SD trace/ target cam
4.) 1x 720p HD cam
Ammo consumed:
40rds of TAP T2 @ 775yds
20rds of Hornady SF 53gr. vmax @ 550yds
45rds of XM856 @ 550yds (many actually make contact this time around w. steel..unreal)
All rds. were shot at steel.
Conditions:
I was shooting in 17mph wind:eek: The reticle cam gives that fact away very easily, and that is the type of wind I have found that makes this stuff just amazingly challenging and by extension pure fun.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00288-1.jpg
First up...Part 1 facing towards the sun @ 775yds using TAP T2 and the SPR, 17-20mph gusts moving right to left across the target.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00296.jpg
Part 1 includes the new Nightforce reticle cam I'm gonna perhaps use some in the future. This proves that one can easily follow their own shot while shooting if they maintain proper shooting technique and stay down on the gun and don't blink. Obviously the quality and performance of the glass needs to be sufficient enough to pick up the swirl or trace which I believe NF has.
NF Reticle 720p HD Cam/ 60x 480p SD trace cam setup..
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00284-1.jpg
Part 1 video:
A half day affair with a precision AR...part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s63ZBATxtik)
Part 2....facing the exact opposite direction w. sun to my back @ 550yds w. a box of SF vmax and then 45rds of xm856. I was sheltered from the wind far more at this location than I was at the first location or part 1. All I can say is that these tracers do some awesome shit.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00298-1.jpg
CMP Steel target after session was concluded....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00304-1.jpg
I'm trying to finish uploading the second video/part 2 video as I type before I call it a night...if it's not up in an hr. or two, than It will be up sometime tom. during the day.
Moment after impact on steel from two consecutive hits(got lucky as hell with these "stranger" rounds:D)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/Snapshot28-27-201112-21AM-1.png
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/Snapshot48-27-201112-23AM-1.png
eta....here is part 2.
A half day affair with a precision AR.....Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrvkJk6FBpo)
Again, good thread. I like the other points of view, especially form guys who have shot alot at long distance.
Jk
For those who wonder why go 13-14"....
1.) mounting the bipod as close to the end of the barrel is extremely advantageous when actually employing them. Each inch closer matters quite a bit imho.
Trident, I hesitated replying to this as I don't want you to think I'm stalking you now, but I think there are other considerations here.
a FF rail as a support or suspension point has it's own set of vibrations and harmonics. if you found your rifles work best supported as far forward as possible, that's fine, but this MAY not be the most accurate point in every rifle/rail combination.
fer instance, I have a Steyr that's capable of .60" with my handloads but one day I couldn't get anywhere's near that. suddenly it dawned on me that I was resting the stock further out than I normally do. I returned it to the original rest point and accuracy returned.
I don't mention this to start another pissing contest but to add to the content of this thread for those who read this and may not get the results they seek. for every rifle that shoots it's best rested as far out as possible, there are several that might shoot better if the "sweet spot" on the foreend is found. and frustratingly enough, this may change again depending on the load...
now this may not matter enough to anyone not chasing that last 0.th, but if the difference equals 1/2minute, as it was in my case, it might be worth experimenting with as one more variable for someone who doesn't roll their own and is stuck with factory ammo...
I'm torn now....do I and the reader believe you, or believe the guys who seem to be practicing what I'm preaching?:)
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4505/roof2bf.jpg
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAiPVbc2ckXz44EHcSeQrIcwcuwio_5Ur-dP2E47yVXCUluwit
http://i47.tinypic.com/29yf66x.jpg
http://www.mk12.net/PHOTOS_files/Media/SanginAfghanistan/SanginAfghanistan.jpg
http://www.mk12.net/PHOTOS_files/Media/Dust%20Storm%20Security%20Cleaned%20Up/Dust%20Storm%20Security%20Cleaned%20Up.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Spr_sf_p5.jpg/300px-Spr_sf_p5.jpg
http://pro-patria.us/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/M16A4-AMU.245190550_std.jpg
I'm torn now....do I and the reader believe you, or believe the guys who seem to be practicing what I'm preaching?:)
The attitude on this is going to be wildy misinterpreted.
Pictures from the internet are great... going out on patrols with them is different.
While others here have BTDT far more than myself, realize that the primary advantage we gained by employing our guys with Mk12's was that we had a slightly better day optic for overwatch positions, and this often involved some awkward or improvised shooting positions where the mechanical accuracy of the weapon system was simply irrelevant, putting the bipod wherever allowed the shooter the most freedom to maintain a usable, steady position to observe and if necessary engage was most important.
Mk262 was also extremely hard to come by, and the Mk318 was starting to arrive in Helmand the month we did our RIP/TOA, so often green tip 855 was used if precision wasn't key to making hits.
Just because one thing works does not mean something else won't work better...
Keeping an open mind and trying new things can be fun and makes us better.
If I had a pic or pics of Steyr rifles w/ bipods placed in the so called "sweet spot" I would post them like I did with the MK 12's all having bipods mounted as far forward as possible.....even though steyr rifle bipod placement has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.
If you don't own or aren't in the process of building a Recce or SPR by the book, please don't substitute whatever rifle you happen to have in order to make technical commentary about these two very specific and individual rifles.
Owning a bolt action rifle, machine gun, carbine, an anti aircraft gun, 20mm canon, 50cal sniper rifle, or a lever action rifle doesn't qualify a person to make technical statements on a Recce or SPR rifle FWIW.
eta...
Just to clarify...I have never heard anyone say that placing a bipod anywhere but the forward most position on a rail as being the correct way to do it on a precision AR until the above poster did. I very strongly believe in what I said about bipod placement on these guns and so does everyone I learned about these rifles from. Your rifle, listen to the voice you want to on the internet:)
Thomas M-4
08-28-11, 15:35
Geez there is more than one way to skin a cat guys.
I have seen benchrest shooters some scrub the hell out the bore every five shots some hardly touch it at all. I saw one guy that was re-torqued his scope mount changing the torque setting he said he was fine tuning his POA to POI :confused: I just say What ever floats your boat some thing might work for one person and not for the next.
I'm torn now....do I and the reader believe you, or believe the guys who seem to be practicing what I'm preaching?:)
Trident, I don't care how you do things. but when you hold yourself out on the internet to be an authority, if I see something that runs counter to my experience, I'll join the conversation.
I see your pictures but recognize that there are (at least) two elements to accuracy. the first I talked about - barrel vibration and harmonics, and the associated support elements being part of this as well. super slo-mo video shows the barrel, as well as the receiver and rail, flexing and vibrating.
the second, is angular deviation and this is why I suspect you'll see most guys shooting with the rifle supported as far out as possible.
assuming the front rest is immovable and the rear point of contact (your shoulder) being subject to movement, if you were to rest the gun exactly in the middle, any movement at the butt would be mirrored by an exact amount of deviation at the muzzle like a teeter-totter. moving the front point of support forward reduces the amount of deviation the closer it is to the muzzle. that's all this is - it just makes the gun mechanically easier to shoot.
to put it more precisely, while it's probable YOU shoot more accurately if you rest the gun as close to the muzzle as possible, it's possible that the GUN may not...
I shot half this stuff at perhaps too long of range...750yds +, and at that distance it's easily outmatched by the 5.56 TAP T2 and MK 262 mod 1, however for 600yds and in...I think this PRZI stuff is hard to beat. I will buy more of the 75gr. variety in the future.
200yd accuracy evaluation....
http://i53.tinypic.com/245ncit.jpg
DeusExMachina
08-31-11, 21:13
Does that ammo load in magazines?
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-01-11, 14:48
I haven't seen the pretty new boxes for the PRVI 75 gr, is it supposed to be the same thing?
Have you chrono'd the two, are they the same?
I bought two boxes of each type and all 80 rds loaded into pmags perfectly normal.
As to the new 75gr. box....great observation, and I forgot to mention that I was shooting the most current variety of the 75gr. stuff. The 69gr. stuff has always gotten great reviews according to my own research, however their was a period when the 75gr. stuff was running really slow and IIrc, the batch was from 2009.
I didn't chrono any cause I shot a box of each at somewhere in the range of 800yds and had like a 50% hit rate at distance w. them. Then I did a 200yd. accuracy eval. with then last two boxes.
Let's Discuss Secondary Optics w/ respect to these specific rifles...
So after reading some rather dumb threads on two other sites relating to these types of rifles and running low powered optics, I figured I would take the time to post my thoughts about how nicely a secondary 1x optic can go with these rifles to make them even more dynamic.
My belief that these rifles require a 2/3-9/10x optic vs. a 1-4x optic was the primary driving force for buying and then running the LT724/T-1 secondary setup. I strongly feel that I personally require the 10x max in optic magnification to utilize these guns at the distances I currently do, however if I ever had to take these guns into a real world fight, I would very much like a true, fast 1x capability. So for about 6 months, I ran extensively this secondary setup on these two rifles and came to an overwhelming conclusion that this is one piece of kit that I would truly equip my LP rifle w. given again I'm going into a real world arena with real threats rather than the range.
Even if one had a 1-4x with a cat tail...the transition speed to the 1x is nowhere as fast as it takes an end user to simply cant the rifle to 1oclock and bring the 1x red dot onto target with a secondary 1x optic setup.
http://i53.tinypic.com/28s22au.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/2ug064o.jpg
DeusExMachina
09-01-11, 16:03
Does that ammo load in magazines?
This isn't a hard question to answer...
I know some heavy .223 rounds are too large OAL to fit in magazines...
This isn't a hard question to answer...
I know some heavy .223 rounds are too large OAL to fit in magazines...
The question was answered in post #276.
Trident
Very nice shooting. For the price of the PPU match, it's hard to beat.
I just started readking this thread. but everytime trident posts its just....................................................................... am I missing something here. people keep talking about the pics, whitch i am not seeing. is it because this thread was started a long time ago, or is that what he is typing?
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-03-11, 15:07
Trident,
Have you ever posted your dope for the different loads in the 16 and 18 inch guns. I've seen very little in the way of come-ups posted online, especially for loads out to the distances that you are shooting.
Thanks,
My shooting wasn't exactly the best today, as you'll see, but had fun messing around.
Noveske N4 16" LoPro Recce w/ Leupold Mk4 1.5x5 and bipod
PPU 75gr Match Ammo
Zero @ 50yds
All ten shot groups fired from prone.
No waits between shots. Fired as soon as I was back on target.
Leupold BDC - 1 click = 1/2" @ 100 yds
200yds - approx 3" group, 1" low Adjustment 1 click up
300 yds - approx 7" group, 10 1/2" low Adjustment 7 clicks up
400 yds - approx 8 1/2" group, 30" low Adjustment 15 clicks up
http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz229/Scoby/IMG_0897.jpg
I can do better so don't give me any shit :D
I shot some steel after I calculated what the adjustment should be based on the drop. It all worked out as it should and I was ringing steel. 13" round steel @ 100, 200 and 300 yds. Full size IDPA @ 440 yds
http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz229/Scoby/IMG_0899.jpg
HawaiianM4
09-05-11, 23:26
Great posts to read.
I would define a SPR as:
Barrel: 18" Stainless Steel, Match Grade, SPR Profile, 1/7 twist, Rifle-Length Gas System
Rail: Rifle Length
Trigger: 2-Stage Trigger
Optics: variable 4-16 - Nightforce or Schmidt Bender (ultra quality)
Ammo: match grade 77gr
Scoby....OUTSTANDING post!!!! Awesome range setup!!!
deadhand...my SPR has the Velocity ret. so the dopes for that are kinda specific, haven't posted anything however on the compact mil dot...I will try and work on that in the future.
Nice def. Hawaiian:)
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq298/dane421/mk12parts.png(google image)
Great posts to read.
I would define a SPR as:
Barrel: 18" Stainless Steel, Match Grade, SPR Profile, 1/7 twist, Rifle-Length Gas System
Rail: Rifle Length
Trigger: 2-Stage Trigger
Optics: variable 4-16 - Nightforce or Schmidt Bender (ultra quality)
Ammo: match grade 77gr
Just a question about the twist rate on the barrel. I've noticed some shops (BCM, for instance) go with a 1/8 in this configuration. While others (Noveske, Centurion, etc.) go with 1/7. Is there any established or measurable difference between 1/7 and 1/8 twists in barrels of this type?
Team Chuck Norris
09-09-11, 22:55
Just a question about the twist rate on the barrel. I've noticed some shops (BCM, for instance) go with a 1/8 in this configuration. While others (Noveske, Centurion, etc.) go with 1/7. Is there any established or measurable difference between 1/7 and 1/8 twists in barrels of this type?
I tried at one time to get an answer to this question. I was not entirely successful.
What I wondered was whether or not there were some conditions where the 1/8 would not be sufficient twist for 77 grain ammunition. I speculate that why Larue uses 1/8 instead of 1/7 may simply be a matter of supply.
In an email to Federal, I asked what the optimal twist rate was for their Gold Medal Match 77 grain load. They did not really answer the question, but they did write back and say that they did their testing of the 77 grain GMMatch using a 1/8 twist barrel.
I inferred from their response that 1/8 is sufficient twist for 77 grain ammunition and that there is no necessity for instead choosing a 1/7 barrel.
I don't have time to go into this right in too much detail at the moment, but temperature and air density will have the most dramatic effect. Take a look at Don Miller's white paper (.pdf format) on stability:
Miller D. A New Rule for Estimating Rifle Twist An Aid to Choosing Bullets and Rifles. Precision Shooting 2005 March:43-48. (http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballistics/bibliography/articles/miller_stability_1.pdf)
I plugged these calculations into Excel to calculate stability for various twist rates and calibers. As you might expect, 1:7 yields theoretically better stability vs. 1:8 for most .223 bullets greater than or equal to 75 gr (at least for the temperatures and elevations where I shoot), but they don't differ that much.
EDIT: I suspect using 77gr bullets might find the 1:8 marginal under "likely" conditions, but I'm having trouble finding data (MV and bullet length) for most of these other than the Berger BT and the Lapua Scenar. For example, plugging in the 77 gr Lapua Scenar at 2550 MV and 1.055 length at zero degrees F results in a 1.3 Miller stability factor in 1:8 versus 1.7 for the 1:7 twist.
Alternatively, you can run JBM's applet to caculate Miller stability values here (http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi). You can get bullets lengths here (http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballistics/lengths/lengths.shtml). There are a lot of missing data for some of the larger bullet lengths. I'm not inclined to yank my ammo apart...yet.
Scoby, that's some nice shootin' for only 5 power (it's 4.5 actual magnification for the 30mm tube and 4.7 for the 1") up top!
KiloSierra
09-10-11, 14:06
Seems to me that unless I'm in Antartica, Siberia or the Artic on a cold, winter day, a 1:8" barrel is perfectly adequate for me.
If I had a money tree in my backyard...I'd love to go out a find a premium 1:8 SS match 16" and wring out for a while.
Great discussion gent's, I don't really have anything of merit to add or I would other than I simply rolled w/ 1:7's due to Mike Rock/LMT specs.
I heard many sources claim that the original Recce barrels by Lilja were 1:8...
"They are made from our 416 type stainless steel and rifled with a Special Forces-proven 8" twist in .223"
"M4: .975" diameter for 2" then a radius down to .850" diameter to the .750" diameter gas block section. From the gas block to the muzzle the diameter is .725". Barrel length is 17" including the M4-type barrel extension and the M4 barrels are furnished with a .500" x 28 TPI x .600" long threaded muzzle. The gas system is carbine-length. This barrel profile is an exact copy of one we've made for the US Navy SEALS. Weight is 2.18 pounds. Engraved: Lilja M4 .223 8T"
http://www.riflebarrels.com/images/ar_images/ar_new_product_full.jpg
http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/ar.htm
My 17" 1/8 Krieger is slightly more accurate with my 77gr SMK reloads than both my 18" and 16" Noveske barrels with 1/7 twists. I'd not put too much concern tween the two.
Scoby, that's some nice shootin' for only 5 power (it's 4.5 actual magnification for the 30mm tube and 4.7 for the 1") up top!
Thank you sir.
I know that this is Tridents "light precision" thread and a damn good one. I don't really consider my setup as a precision rig however, and I may be out of my lane on this. I am not a precision target shooter. My setup IS a step closer to a precision rig than a carbine with a RDS. What has intrigued me with this thread are the really long ranges being shot with light bullets and the hits Trident has been able to achieve. The videos are awesome.
My intended purpose for my recce is to be able to put shots within 10" - 12" (center mass) at 400yds and it does this quite well. Shooting steel with it, supported in prone at 100 - 200 yds, can get quite boring at times. I do shoot from different positions, offhand, kneeling, weak side, etc... and this to me is more practical for the intended purpose of the recce setup.
I hope to one day have a "precision" rig. Maybe a KAC or Noveske with a stainless barrel and a 10x/15x Nightforce. That would be sweet and the crows on our place will catch hell. Just don't have the expendable cash right now.
"M4: .975" diameter for 2" then a radius down to .850" diameter to the .750" diameter gas block section. From the gas block to the muzzle the diameter is .725". Barrel length is 17" including the M4-type barrel extension and the M4 barrels are furnished with a .500" x 28 TPI x .600" long threaded muzzle. The gas system is carbine-length. This barrel profile is an exact copy of one we've made for the US Navy SEALS. Weight is 2.18 pounds. Engraved: Lilja M4 .223 8T"
http://www.riflebarrels.com/images/ar_images/ar_new_product_full.jpg
http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/ar.htm
That's the bbl I just used for my first build. Unfortunately I'm still waiting on a variable power optic, and even when I get it - the longest ranges in the area are 100yds. :sad:
El Cid, send that badass barrel my way as I would absolutely love to shoot or own it;). That's a really great barrel decision on your part imo, that also reflects your depth on this topic as that is the sign of a connoisseur in my book. Goes without saying that we all will be patiently waiting for a report back on that barrel and your overall build asap.
Figured it was time to post another true update in regards to these two different rifles "battling" alongside one another.
The Battle: Both rifles on steel @ 839yds
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00640-1-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00650-3-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00636-1.jpg
The Ammo: Super Duper MK 262 mod1 (Total of 60rds...each rifle fired and was graded on 30rds per).
The Conditions:
temp: 71degrees
elev: 417ft
humidity: 51%
pressure: 30.18 -->
wind: ESE at 5 to 10 mph
The Target: The Recce scored 24/30 hits, while the SPR scored 26/30. (Disregard the few very anemic looking shot marks on the target as those are SF 53gr vmax that I like to play with and I had shot a few after I finished the main event up this morning.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00663-1.jpg
The footage:
Battle for light precision supremacy: The Recce and SPR rifles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd_99TxLnwI)
In summary, anything past 800yds in a 5.56 LP AR...better plan on earning everything as it's quite amazing to see how well these guns shoot up to about 700yds, and then equally amazing how they fall off dramatically after that distance.
It's exactly like when I was growing up and my best pal and I used to take this 1994 Targa 911 turbo out late night on a desolate interstate(not doing this stuff anymore:)) and try to hit the top speed which for my pal was 179mph, and for myself was 174mph. Long story short....it was amazing to see how fast that Porsche would hit 140-150mph....and it was equally amazing to see just how long it then took to grind that last 20-30mph out while obtaining our top speeds. That is essentially just like these guns being light's out to about 700yds, at which point they start to lose steam exponentially more quickly.
Thank you sir.
I know that this is Tridents "light precision" thread and a damn good one. I don't really consider my setup as a precision rig however, and I may be out of my lane on this. I am not a precision target shooter. My setup IS a step closer to a precision rig than a carbine with a RDS. What has intrigued me with this thread are the really long ranges being shot with light bullets and the hits Trident has been able to achieve. The videos are awesome.
My intended purpose for my recce is to be able to put shots within 10" - 12" (center mass) at 400yds and it does this quite well. Shooting steel with it, supported in prone at 100 - 200 yds, can get quite boring at times. I do shoot from different positions, offhand, kneeling, weak side, etc... and this to me is more practical for the intended purpose of the recce setup.
I hope to one day have a "precision" rig. Maybe a KAC or Noveske with a stainless barrel and a 10x/15x Nightforce. That would be sweet and the crows on our place will catch hell. Just don't have the expendable cash right now.
Scoby,
This sounds exactly like what I am planning on building in the near future. A "semi-precision" Recce that is good enough to make hits out to 400 (maybe 500 if I want to push it) on IDPA target sized steel. I'm making it as light as possible, while still maintaining its ruggedness, and will probably go with a Vortex 1-4x (unless they come out with a 1.1-8x).
My only question on this rig would be which to use, Mils or MOA? If this isn't taking the thread off topic, I would like to hear some opinions from guys who know more than I do (which isn't much) on this topic. I've read alot on the subject, and it is as clear as mud to me which one is "better" or "why" to use one over the other?....currently I'm leaning Mils, but I couldn't give you a coherent answer WHY lol.
Mils or MOA - does not make any difference, unless you are using the reticle to range distance (in yards or meters), the math is easier with mils. I'm not an expert by any means, but I could go against the grain and say that - if you estimate your target height in inches - MOA could be easier.
Otherwise it's running your data in one or the other and basing your holdovers accordingly. Just be sure your reticle and turrets match.
http://www.arcanamavens.com/LBSFiles/Shooting/Downloads/Ranging/
HawaiianM4
09-18-11, 23:35
El Cid, send that badass barrel my way as I would absolutely love to shoot or own it;). That's a really great barrel decision on your part imo, that also reflects your depth on this topic as that is the sign of a connoisseur in my book. Goes without saying that we all will be patiently waiting for a report back on that barrel and your overall build asap.
Figured it was time to post another true update in regards to these two different rifles "battling" alongside one another.
The Battle: Both rifles on steel @ 839yds
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00640-1-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00650-3-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00636-1.jpg
The Ammo: Super Duper MK 262 mod1 (Total of 60rds...each rifle fired and was graded on 30rds per).
The Conditions:
temp: 71degrees
elev: 417ft
humidity: 51%
pressure: 30.18 -->
wind: ESE at 5 to 10 mph
The Target: The Recce scored 24/30 hits, while the SPR scored 26/30. (Disregard the few very anemic looking shot marks on the target as those are SF 53gr vmax that I like to play with and I had shot a few after I finished the main event up this morning.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00663-1.jpg
The footage:
Battle for light precision supremacy: The Recce and SPR rifles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd_99TxLnwI)
In summary, anything past 800yds in a 5.56 LP AR...better plan on earning everything as it's quite amazing to see how well these guns shoot up to about 700yds, and then equally amazing how they fall off dramatically after that distance.
It's exactly like when I was growing up and my best pal and I used to take this 1994 Targa 911 turbo out late night on a desolate interstate(not doing this stuff anymore:)) and try to hit the top speed which for my pal was 179mph, and for myself was 174mph. Long story short....it was amazing to see how fast that Porsche would hit 140-150mph....and it was equally amazing to see just how long it then took to grind that last 20-30mph out while obtaining our top speeds. That is essentially just like these guns being light's out to about 700yds, at which point they start to lose steam exponentially more quickly.
Thanks for the post and the video. Good explaination of that past 700 yards it is much more difficult. I have seen the graphs on this in the past. Good to see the two different rifles and how they do side by side.
El Cid, send that badass barrel my way as I would absolutely love to shoot or own it;). That's a really great barrel decision on your part imo, that also reflects your depth on this topic as that is the sign of a connoisseur in my book. Goes without saying that we all will be patiently waiting for a report back on that barrel and your overall build asap.
LOL! Wish I could take credit for it, but I'm not a connoisseur - I just know when to listen to people who are. :D I got it through a buddy who shoots distance a lot and is very good at it. And you can't have it - the build is complete. Posted it in the CB forum a week or so ago. If you are ever in South FL you can shoot it though. :cool:
That's the bbl I just used for my first build. Unfortunately I'm still waiting on a variable power optic, and even when I get it - the longest ranges in the area are 100yds. :sad:
I was eying one of those too for yet another...
Lilja has a great reputation among the precision shooting community. Though it may be "special forces proven 1:8 twist" I am concerned about the .223 designation. Has anyone verified the chamber on these, i.e., is it .223 or 5.56?
I was eying one of those too for yet another...
Lilja has a great reputation among the precision shooting community. Though it may be "special forces proven 1:8 twist" I am concerned about the .223 designation. Has anyone verified the chamber on these, i.e., is it .223 or 5.56?
It's a .223 Wylde which I understand to be on par with 5.56.
My entry to the SPR world. I have very limited long range experience with something that's not belt fed or does not have a targeting system.
http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv189/ssggfield/002-19.jpg
A little video of my range trip. The bullet trace was a lucky break.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ssggfield?feature=mhee#p/a/u/1/P8_wKL29Ekk
That's awesome bullet trace! Trying to capture it is addicting as hell though...be warned:)
Great build, my only suggestion is perhaps replacing that front fixed sight with a folding one.
Belmont31R
09-28-11, 20:29
The best is when the sun is behind you, and you get reflection almost the whole way off the bullet not just a vapor trail. Its like time slows down and you just see this shiny little oblong dot floating through the air. A lot different experience than actually shooting. Only seen it on a spotter scope.
My entry to the SPR world. I have very limited long range experience with something that's not belt fed or does not have a targeting system.
http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv189/ssggfield/002-19.jpg
A little video of my range trip. The bullet trace was a lucky break.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ssggfield?feature=mhee#p/a/u/1/P8_wKL29Ekk
That looks almost identical to what I am building except mine is a 16" (Noveske) with a 13" TRX in FDE with front MBUS rather than fixed and mine will wear a Vortex 1-4. Just need to finish the lower and get the optic and it will be picture worthy. :D
Are you running the Vltor A5?
Nice shooting btw.
Thanks!
I am running the A5 with a Noveske 18.5 intermediate gas system.
I think Im going to take the fixed front site off and put a folding one on. There is a slight blur in the bottom of the scope from the irons.
Thanks!
I am running the A5 with a Noveske 18.5 intermediate gas system.
I think Im going to take the fixed front site off and put a folding one on. There is a slight blur in the bottom of the scope from the irons.
One more thing..stock trigger or Geiselle?
The best is when the sun is behind you, and you get reflection almost the whole way off the bullet not just a vapor trail. Its like time slows down and you just see this shiny little oblong dot floating through the air. A lot different experience than actually shooting. Only seen it on a spotter scope.
I agree...shooting with the sun to your back produces the best results. I also totally agree with the "time slowing down", it's all but impossible to catch as the shooter, however I got lucky and happen to catch one during some footage of mine and it's still the most amazing single bullet flight Ive captured to date. I just cannot believe how you can see the little bitty 77gr. projectile all the way to IIrc 900yds. If the sun hits it perfectly and your positioning is right...capturing a bullet glint is indeed possible and is unlike anything Ive personally witnessed within shooting or ballistics.
Amazing Bullet glint and swirl captured in HD.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI_g9c6ouO0)
Eta...great decision on that SSA-E as I have found that a trigger is easily one of the most critical components to these rifles, or at least to utilizing their full potential/accuracy. It's such an advantage having the ability to control and break a shot exactly when you want, moreover on a 2stage trigger..it's such an advantage to be able to actually "setup" that break on command by using that first stage.
Thanks for your thread. Based on what I learned here I'll be going for a 16" Noveske on my next build vs the 18".
I don't ever get a chance to shoot to the distances you've pushed your 16 even.
It's my pleasure pal:)
The Recce is the much more practical rifle of the two and I don't believe the SPR can do anything that the Recce cannot do, the main difference Ive found to date is that the Recce just makes you work a bit harder at distance and requires more accurate measurements with regards to windage.
If one has the luxury of rarely having to hump a rifle and can simply shoot prone all day long, I'd strongly consider opting for the SPR over the Recce due to it's more user friendly and smoother shooting nature. That's where I truly enjoy the heavy contoured 18" barreled SPR over the significantly lighter and harder recoiling Recce rifle.
The Recce is just one helluva of a package when you combine it's pinpoint accuracy and it's overall portability. 2" of reduced OAL, along with being give or take 2lbs lighter ultimately goes a long way for anyone who intends to use the rifle in a more dynamic manner vs. a static one.
I wonder what will happen when we add an Afghan to this battle...:cool:
https://dbmg-llc.3dcartstores.com/Noveske-Afghan-MRP_p_28.html
I wonder what will happen when we add an Afghan to this battle...:cool:
https://dbmg-llc.3dcartstores.com/Noveske-Afghan-MRP_p_28.html
Looks like a nice option for MRP guys... Might pick one up and check it out. My other 14.5 Noveske barrel shoots lights out.
My heart just melted a little....an old pal from TOS posted this absolutely stunning specimen and I just have to share it with all my pals over here. WOW!!!!
We'll start with specs;
LMT Gen 2 SOPMOD FDE
Magpul MOE PG FDE
Noveske QD Endplate
KAC SR15E3 lower with Knights 2 stage trigger
LMT rifle length MRP with Mike Rock 16" SS barrel
Leupold MR/T 1.5-5X with illumination and SPR reticle
ADM Recon mount, made for Noveske with Noveske markings FDE
ADM bipod mount FDE
Harris
Still needs a set of Troy BUIS in FDE
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/jtdam24/65e3f8d0.jpg
Thanks Trident, Im happy with her :D! All she needs is a set of troys and shes ready to go!
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/jtdam24/2c59260a.jpg
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/jtdam24/ea4b3584.jpg
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/jtdam24/5c5dc894.jpg
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/jtdam24/65e3f8d0.jpg
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/jtdam24/f6214c3d.jpg
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/jtdam24/82b57842.jpg
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/jtdam24/dcab527c.jpg
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/jtdam24/b91243b0.jpg
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/jtdam24/3ccea8c2.jpg
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/jtdam24/43b5c21b.jpg
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x334/jtdam24/bc656f63.jpg
Magnificent....that's one of my all time favorite rifles now brother.
I know it must have taken some time to put it all together but damn if it didn't turn out perfect.
Please keep us updated on how it shoots or please send it my way for a full evaluation and work up...I promise I won't melt it:D
Thanks for taking the time to post up the pics over here and I'm sure others will enjoy seeing them as much as myself.
Belmont31R
10-12-11, 10:57
What state do you live in that much oil on the exterior doesn't turn a gun into a powdered donut within about 10 minutes on the range? Or is that just for the pics?
Not trying to be rude just curious.
What state do you live in that much oil on the exterior doesn't turn a gun into a powdered donut within about 10 minutes on the range? Or is that just for the pics?
Not trying to be rude just curious.
Lol I had just received the upper last night. It came degreased from the LMT so I put a nice coat of oil on her and snapped the pics before I wiped her down. Shes all wiped down nice and dry now, just a few drops on the BCG and FCG.:D
The powdered donut comment made me laugh and spit a little coffe out lol
Edit: Deleted. I'm going to take the high road on this one :)
Lol I had just received the upper last night. It came degreased from the LMT so I put a nice coat of oil on her and snapped the pics before I wiped her down. Shes all wiped down nice and dry now, just a few drops on the BCG and FCG.:D
The powdered donut comment made me laugh and spit a little coffe out lol
Sorry you were welcomed to M4C like that...those comments are generally what drives so many away from this site.
Your a good sport and don't deserve the petty ass comments considering you have been a member since 2007. Wow I didn't see that bullshit til now, again my sincere apologies.
I just looked up my favorite all time quote on here for another thread and wanted to post it in this thread considering it's what this thread is all about to the core....
The original whatever you want to call them- Recces, SPRs, MK 12s (we usually just say "sniper M4") had a 16" barrel, Leupold 2.5-10 and a PRI foregrip. They were first used operationally in '93 in Somalia by our guys that were attached to our Southern brethren.
It went to 18" quite frankly because the big Army got involved. Most of us that have a lot of time on one (myself included) think that 16" is better for a number of reasons;
1. 2" does make a difference especially with a can.
2. weight (it's not pounds at this stage it's ounces) and remember that balance has a factor here too.
3. I've shot both together on the same range at the same time. I don't really care what charts and scientists say, me and mine can hit just as good with 16" as 18".
Slight digression- I think most experienced guys will also agree that 24-26" is too long for the 700 as well. 20-22" is fine for what distances most will use it for.
The MK12 is ok as it comes, but, me and majority of the guys that were around me immediatley shitcanned the fixed stock. Some would go with a Geisselle trigger too, and some would put a tube rail back on. All of these little touches were done in house at the shooters home team.
As has been pointed out 5.56 does fine in moderate wind out pretty far. There are an assload of guys both Army and Navy that have slayed passed 600 repeatedly.
For pickin and choosin I tell guys the rules of 4 for caliber;
400 and closer- 5.56 all day
400-800 - 7.62
800-1200- 300 WM
1200-1600 - 338 Lapua
I said a few years ago that bolt action sniper guns would become obseolete at close and moderate distances. I got laughed at. Well, a good friend of mine who I shot with during 2 courses this year and his shooting partner just won the International Sniper Competition at Benning with Larue OBRs.
There's no reason to not have a mag fed snipe gun anymore for 90% of the shooters out there. The manufacturers have simply done too good a job to not use them. On that note, there is already a 7.62 mag fed that has a 12" barrel and will hold 1 MOA to 300 no problem.;)
Good thread guys!
Respect,
KD
Dude, it's already posted in this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1036205&postcount=187
Can anybody recommend me a video editing or mixing software that will allow me to use side by side screens within the video....I don't want to buy anything expensive or fancy and would prefer something free to download. I don't need any more features than what the free Windows live movie maker provides me with that is already on my laptop, however it doesn't seem to have the split screen feature that I need for my next little project within this topic.
I need the split screen ability so that I can compare and analyze both rifles trajectory/bullet flight at least out to 600yds if not more. The trajectory will be traced via both traditional air disturbance "bullet trace" from typical ammo like MK262/TAP T2/55gr. Vmax, as well as XM856 if it will cooperate. The trajectories will be broken down to the frame so that both of the rifle's bullet flights will start at the exact same time on their respective screen.
Essentially I want to re create in living color what a trajectory chart only depicts in simple graph form on paper. I'm not trying to determine trajectory of these rifles using various types of ammo, but rather capture it so that it can be visualized in real time and simultaneously compared side by side, thus illustrating the trajectory differences b/t the recce and spr at distance. Add in a windy day and this could really get interesting. I know what's happening and so do many that are following this thread, however I want to see it with my eyes, rather than just know it or understand it.
The majority of this morning's session was spent shooting 55gr. vmax @ 600yds from non prone positions, but nothing about that process and it's footage can compare to my first true attempts at 1000yds + and so that is what I'm rolling with for this field report/update:)
Sadly I only had 6 rds. of MK262 mod 1 left to make an attempt at this distance, however the footage is mind boggling and should be worth watching for those who care to do so.
The second video posted below features some really pristine bullet trace(super clear air disturbance) captured in full 1080p HD with the Sony cam...it even has a few frames of bullet glint as well in it.
The first video posted below is flat out the best bullet glint and by extension bullet trace footage Ive captured to date.
Almost every single frame of the bullet trace shows bullet glint from the MK 262 rounds, thereby you can literally see the 77gr. SMK flying through the air(vs. just watching the air disturbance created by the projectile under normal bullet trace type footage).
This isn't air disturbance or so called vapor trails, this is straight up bullet watching:cool:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC01077-1.jpg
MRP SPR @ 1000yds...stunning bullet trace/bullet glint (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB9GXUanOzk&feature=youtube_gdata)
MRP SPR @ 1000yds....super clear bullet trace (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfkakhWELv8&feature=youtube_gdata)
eta...I think I will try this same attempt again this afternoon since I think I got the dope figured out and and should have some real footage with more than 6 shots fired and only 1 hit...even though that was the first hit at 1000yds + Ive ever made and think that it was very significant in my learning process on this topic. Now if I can go string numerous hits back to back at this same attempt, I'll be making some nice progress I think.
One other point or food for thought for anyone that is still following this...I'm wondering if its only in the morning and specifically 2-3 hrs after dawn on obviously a sunny day that its even possible to capture this "glinting" trace footage. Now that I have gotten a nice little bit of it on footage it's like crack rock trying to chase that dragon.:D Air disturbance or the so called vapor trails really cannot compare to actually watching the bullet fly through the air almost the entire time minus the last few frames of it's flight at which time an effect I don't know the actual term for happens or at least visually to observer or in my case the filming eye in which the bullet appears to drop drastically all at once and then reappearing the moment it actual makes contact with the said target.
Singlestack Wonder
02-13-12, 19:50
Great thread Trident82! Thanks for the effort and the information you've provided!
It's my pleasure brother:)
If there is still any interest in this topic, I now finally have a shooting pal to help me do a cpl. things I never could do on my own.
The main thing I want to do is shoot both these rifles side by side, time the trigger pulls exactly, and analyze their trajectories side by side all the way onto the steel target. I will use XM856s as well as normal bullet trace(permitting I have the right conditions to capture it) in order to illustrate this on film. I will also use slow motion replays of these trajectory comparisons to hopefully better help depict the differences between the Recce and SPR at long ranges.
Are you sure you're seeing the bullet & not just the light refracting off of the vortex it's creating in some weird way? On the Magpul precision rifle dvd there was a special feature on Disc1 where Todd Hardnett is discussing trace, and I think he said something along those lines. I have no clue though. What I do know is that it was VERY COOL. Thanks for the videos.
I could be mistaken pal, but I'm pretty sure that what I'm referring to is seeing the bullet Glint....
Glint:
1. a archaic : to glance off an object b of rays of light : to be reflected at an angle from a surface
2. to give off reflection in brilliant flashes; also : gleam
3. to look quickly or briefly : glance
4. to appear briefly or faintly
n.
1. A momentary flash of light; a sparkle: a glint of sunlight through the clouds.
2. A faint or fleeting indication; a trace:a glint of suspicion on his face.
intr.v., glint·ed, glint·ing, glints.
1. To gleam or give out small flashes of light, usually by reflection: Her glasses glinted in the sunlight. See synonyms at flash.
2. To be reflected in small flashes: The moon glinted on the lake.
Trident's terminology and assessment is pretty much all correct, with the minor exception of the term "vapor trail," but it's just minor semantics.
"Glint," which Trident correctly identifies (I don't call it that, but it doesn't really matter what you call it), is sun reflecting off the round. It is most observable when the sun is behind the shooter. So, yes, we are actually seeing the round in flight, with the aid of the sun reflecting off of it. If I had to hazard a guess, and I might be off, I would say that Trident's range runs generally east to west.
Trace, which looks like the bullets from the Matrix, is disturbed air which makes light reflect differently behind the projectile. This can also obviously be seen in the videos.
Something that's far less common is vapor trail, which is different from trace. It can sometimes be observed with high velocity ammunition in humid environments. It looks like white steam behind the round, kind of like what a fighter jet produces when pulling high G's. Unless I missed it skimming through the videos, I didn't observe any here.
Good shooting Trident.
Thanks for weighing in a0cake...very informational as always, and your certainly one of the most knowledgeable members on the topic of precision shooting/rifles.
I also completely agree about my earlier usage of the term "vapor trails" being wrong, and over the last year or so have corrected my terminology in regards to the differences of vapor trails and then bullet trace.
I'm not sure I've ever captured or known that I captured the elusive "vapor trail" effect. I am however in a perfect environment to capture it during the incredibly humid and hot summer months in Alabama. I will make an effort for sure this summer to try and go about capturing this on film.
In regards to your assessment of what I refer to as bullet glint....you know your shit;).....as I can only capture the bullet glint footage when I shoot from east to west, with lots of sun directly behind my back. I still can't get over how cool it is to actually watch that bullet in flight...rather than the "bullet trace" or air disturbance being caused by it's flight.
Good shooting Trident. That throws some egg in the face of people who say the .223/5.56 cant shoot out to 1000 yards accurately. Not that Im saying its the best round for that, especially if there is any wind.
My next build is going to be a clone of my M16-SDMR I carried in 05. Maybe I can throw another contender in the mix?
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm229/killerchase2000/Iraq%202003/sdasda.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm229/killerchase2000/Iraq%202003/sdadsasda.jpg
Obviously I would need to get some different glass for the long range stuff.
C-grunt....cool pics, and thanks very much for your service:)
This whole topic is centered more around the military use vs. civilian or LEO use given the distances were discussing here in terms of real world usage of these particular types of ARs.
I need to go back and do some more shooting with these rifles at 1k....with the little bit of time I spent at that distance, I found out it's certainly possible, however I didn't really get a great feel for percentages in terms of hits vs. misses.
I need to go back and do some more shooting with these rifles at 1k....with the little bit of time I spent at that distance, I found out it's certainly possible, however I didn't really get a great feel for percentages in terms of hits vs. misses.
A thousand yards is a long ways out there. Like I said it isn't the best tool for the job but it can do it if you needed. Not all of the shots were on target but the misses weren't far off. You could easily pin down a group of men at that distance and no one would be safe out in the open.
Sorry for the Necro post here...but after several folks had questions in regards to the youtube summary video of this rather long evaluation of mine, I finally linked this thread in the video's description so that folks could actually get a bit of info rather than a Trailor per say.
I need to formally re-populate the beginning now perhaps as well since I believe I finally have very solid conclusions, data, videos, etc. to make this a worth while read. The lesson I learned after this thread was don't start threads at the very beginning of what will become quite extensive, and time consuming topics.
Anyway, here are the first of several ballistic charts of the rifles side by side with one particular type of ammo....and these charts were calculated on "true" data, using my conditions, and the actual recorded MV using a Oehlar 35p (Slomo is still the man:) ).
Wind: 5mph Elevation: 535ft. Temp: 72degrees F Clicks/MOA: 4
MK262 through a 16" Recce, and 18" SPR:
Recce / MK262 chart:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08278_zps2e6e1c0a.jpg
SPR / MK262 chart:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08282_zps3f05f659.jpg
Finally for those that might be interested, one last thing. Recently when it came time to build a new LP AR from scratch, the SPR got the nod over the Recce. This was mainly because I received a SPR barrel that was really one helluva specimen.
New SPR:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07024-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06569-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06526-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06548-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06573-1.jpg
Range report/video from it's first outing....
Geissele Automatic's SM-SPR @ 715yds.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJPAQSjaBLg)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07083-1.jpg
and the AR500 that paid the price:)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07091-1.jpg
Awesome thread bro.
I didn't get a chance to really wring out my MRP Recce like I was hoping I would this last time off the boat, but I did get stage 1 of my range finished. I've got a 200 & 600 yard berm(I'll be adding a 400 yarder at some point) With a full size IPSC AR500 and 10" round AR550 at the 600 yarder (lasered 610 to the berm, 607 yards to the steel)
I live on 145 acres and put it in my bottom field, so I'm a 2 minute 4 wheeler ride away. I've got a 10 acre lake next to my house that I'm about to stock with bass, so once both are completely finished I'll be completely useless LOL :cool:
Some thoughts and observations: The MK 12 loves MK262 and SMK 77 gr variants, like the ASYM precision load, with the 75 OTM hornady Asym Precision load a close second. However, I think I'll run the 75 hornady from now on. Both are easily capable of combat effective hits to 600, and the hornady bullet seems to shoot flatter, retain more energy, has slightly better terminal ballistics, and is about 15 bucks cheaper a box.
For situations where every tenth of MOA counts, like a match or shooting prairie dogs, the SMK loads would be a better choice. For everything else I'd prefer the 75 OTM Hornady.
Remember how we talked about our MRPs being partial to Barnes TSX? Well my MRP LOVES the 70 gr TSX, from both ASYM and SSA brown tip clone. Itactually shot it more consistently that both the 77 SMK and 75 Hornady. This is going to be my deer/hog hunting load for the MRP.
The Mk12 shot it OK, it was 3rd accuracy-wise but not nearly as nice as the 77 or 75. It was accurate enough to the edge of it's velocity expansion window however(300-325 yards) that I'd feel comfortable using it for hunting.
Here's some pics:
The reason I didn't play with the MRP too much LOL, my new BCM Mk12 mod 0 upper. BCM blem lower, Geissele SD-E trigger, Magpul PRS with JP captured buffer system. Old Loopy 4.5-14X50 mil-dot I had stashed in the back of the safe. I'll be adding a Magpul MIAD with the large backstrap insert soon, I like a fat grip on a precision rig. Harris 9-13", IMO a little taller bipod allows me to get over shit and also allow for a 30 rounder.
I got it in bare SS and natural CF because I planned to rattlecan it any way, but IMO it looks too damn nice so I'll probably leave it like it is.
http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/173505bbca4c4273.jpg
I let some friends shoot my new MK12, I took the last 4 shots in the mag of 77 SMK ASYM precision. The 2 overlapping shots at the neckline are actually my first 3 shots, the bigger one on the left is actually 2 shots where #3 landed right on top of #2(according to the spotter) #4 is right below them.
http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/173505bbba312ca5.jpg
SSA optimized brown tip clone, after impacting 600 yard AR500
http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/173505bbca4a08c1.jpg
http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/173505bbca4b2569.jpg
http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/173505bbc5ce6924.jpg
http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/173505bbbd0a44c0.jpg
http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/173505bbba2f1521.jpg
Quite simply you have mastered the premise of "living the dream"! And thank you for that reply above, even though it will take me two parts to digest.
What your getting to do on that beautiful 145acres is easily at the very top of my list of things I hope to experience/own before my time is up. Much like fishing for myself, shooting LR has become largely quite the intimate activity between myself, and isolated patches of nature. My father started me into the world of firearms with a 10/22, two eagle smoke 30rd. mags, and long walks together in BFE wilderness, many occasions not even shooting a full mag's worth of .22lr. Alabama doesn't even have a public or private 1k range amazingly (at least not that I can find).
I've had my ad in craigslist now for a several months trying to lease 100-200acres....nothing like yours, but rather some recently clear cut timber land. I also started a thread perhaps over a year ago in GD asking for info in regards to how much acreage I would need to start living my dream. I got some great info, but ultimately it was depressing as I was very mistaken in regards to needed acres for a 1k shooting "alley" with back stop. Most folks said min. b/t 50-100acres...and that would be in an area where one wouldn't have to worry about downrange bullets per say.
The ten acre lake thing was just too much sir..lol. The fact that I've spent about 15 yrs with a pet lake of mine in terms of fertilizing, stocking, creating artificial structure, and then gathering the "shock" survey data yearly from the Southeastern Pond Mgnt. people makes me have a great insight into the vast amount of enjoyment that will be bringing you. If you can't find fun and enjoyment with building a trophy bass pond, and LR shooting locale....I'd be checking for a pulse:cool:
Forcing myself to shut up now on this topic, going to cry for a bit, and will return to discuss rifles again:thank_you2:
HawaiianM4
09-27-12, 02:16
Awesome thread bro.
I didn't get a chance to really wring out my MRP Recce like I was hoping I would this last time off the boat, but I did get stage 1 of my range finished. I've got a 200 & 600 yard berm(I'll be adding a 400 yarder at some point) With a full size IPSC AR500 and 10" round AR550 at the 600 yarder (lasered 610 to the berm, 607 yards to the steel)
I live on 145 acres and put it in my bottom field, so I'm a 2 minute 4 wheeler ride away. I've got a 10 acre lake next to my house that I'm about to stock with bass, so once both are completely finished I'll be completely useless LOL :cool:
Some thoughts and observations: The MK 12 loves MK262 and SMK 77 gr variants, like the ASYM precision load, with the 75 OTM hornady Asym Precision load a close second. However, I think I'll run the 75 hornady from now on. Both are easily capable of combat effective hits to 600, and the hornady bullet seems to shoot flatter, retain more energy, has slightly better terminal ballistics, and is about 15 bucks cheaper a box.
For situations where every tenth of MOA counts, like a match or shooting prairie dogs, the SMK loads would be a better choice. For everything else I'd prefer the 75 OTM Hornady.
Remember how we talked about our MRPs being partial to Barnes TSX? Well my MRP LOVES the 70 gr TSX, from both ASYM and SSA brown tip clone. Itactually shot it more consistently that both the 77 SMK and 75 Hornady. This is going to be my deer/hog hunting load for the MRP.
The Mk12 shot it OK, it was 3rd accuracy-wise but not nearly as nice as the 77 or 75. It was accurate enough to the edge of it's velocity expansion window however(300-325 yards) that I'd feel comfortable using it for hunting.
Here's some pics:
The reason I didn't play with the MRP too much LOL, my new BCM Mk12 mod 0 upper. BCM blem lower, Geissele SD-E trigger, Magpul PRS with JP captured buffer system. Old Loopy 4.5-14X50 mil-dot I had stashed in the back of the safe. I'll be adding a Magpul MIAD with the large backstrap insert soon, I like a fat grip on a precision rig. Harris 9-13", IMO a little taller bipod allows me to get over shit and also allow for a 30 rounder.
I got it in bare SS and natural CF because I planned to rattlecan it any way, but IMO it looks too damn nice so I'll probably leave it like it is.
http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/173505bbca4c4273.jpg
I let some friends shoot my new MK12, I took the last 4 shots in the mag of 77 SMK ASYM precision. The 2 overlapping shots at the neckline are actually my first 3 shots, the bigger one on the left is actually 2 shots where #3 landed right on top of #2(according to the spotter) #4 is right below them.
http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/173505bbba312ca5.jpg
SSA optimized brown tip clone, after impacting 600 yard AR500
http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/173505bbca4a08c1.jpg
http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/173505bbca4b2569.jpg
http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/173505bbc5ce6924.jpg
http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/173505bbbd0a44c0.jpg
http://fangamers.net/imagehosting/173505bbba2f1521.jpg
Thanks for an excellent post and successful build. I enjoying reading about shooters that are pushing the limits of 5.56 and SPR.
cool stuff guys, thanks for posting!
Trident's terminology and assessment is pretty much all correct, with the minor exception of the term "vapor trail," but it's just minor semantics.
"Glint," which Trident correctly identifies (I don't call it that, but it doesn't really matter what you call it), is sun reflecting off the round. It is most observable when the sun is behind the shooter. So, yes, we are actually seeing the round in flight, with the aid of the sun reflecting off of it. If I had to hazard a guess, and I might be off, I would say that Trident's range runs generally east to west.
Trace, which looks like the bullets from the Matrix, is disturbed air which makes light reflect differently behind the projectile. This can also obviously be seen in the videos.
Something that's far less common is vapor trail, which is different from trace. It can sometimes be observed with high velocity ammunition in humid environments. It looks like white steam behind the round, kind of like what a fighter jet produces when pulling high G's. Unless I missed it skimming through the videos, I didn't observe any here.
Good shooting Trident.
I've seen the copper colored glint shooting at sundown with my back to the sun. The trace is easy to see spotting for 600 yd shots. Is it more evident when the bullet is supersonic?
It only takes seeing one true bullet glint flight as I call it in order to be hooked for life on long range shooting. It's just so damn magical regardless how much I learn or think I know what's happening.
If anyone on M4C would have some real information on something that is so rare to even see, let alone understand such as the topic of bullet glint flight is, I'd say a0cake has as good of chance if not better than any I know of being that person. He was the one who still to this day gave the only logical explanation for my alien abducted XM856 round that literally defied everything that I knew about physics, and bullet flight during a roughly 750yd flight path.
I know I can repeat glint flight occasionally, however I believe I have a better chance of getting struck by lightning now then seeing the particular occurrence I'm talking about with the tracer round.
The "Ultimate Stranger"..... XM856 on crack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yjy2V32Ums)
Taliv might be able to speak on bullet glints, and the very first time I learned about glint flight was from watching one of Orkan's youtube videos so he might know as well.
if you want to see bullet glint, shoot a HP 45 acp eastward in the afternoon. :)
i've only seen it a handful of times from a long range rifle. it is kinda cool.
The Known Distance rifle range at Dam Neck, Virginia, faces east. During the Atlantic Fleet and All-Navy East Matches the sun rises directly in your face as the first few relays get down to shooting between 0715 and 0745.
During the standing phase of the National Match Course, as your bullets go through the targets sunlight will stream through the holes -- very cool that you can spot your hits without a spotting scope.
As the sun gains angle by the time there's been a pit change and everyone starts the sitting rapid fire phase the sun is at enough of an angle where sunlight reflects off the flat copper bases of Sierra 77s. It's like watching BBs or tracers go through the air. Absolutely cool to watch. Use a spotting scope and you can watch them over their entire flight to the target.
Depending on sky condition and angle you can watch artillery and mortar rounds coming out of their tubes as well.
Another neat phenomena is "bullet crack" as the projo flies through the air. On the left flank of Camp Perry's Viale Range they have plywood barriers with zebra stripes painted on them marking the range's boundary. There's a space between each plywood panel. When a rifle goes off you can hear the bullet's sonic wave pass by each panel, and you can also HEAR the bullet spinning in flight.
Another neat phenomena is "bullet crack" as the projo flies through the air. On the left flank of Camp Perry's Viale Range they have plywood barriers with zebra stripes painted on them marking the range's boundary. There's a space between each plywood panel. When a rifle goes off you can hear the bullet's sonic wave pass by each panel, and you can also HEAR the bullet spinning in flight.
cool. i never noticed that. i think closest to the left i've been squaded on viale is about 27.
if you want to see bullet glint, shoot a HP 45 acp eastward in the afternoon.
........or a suppressed, select-fire 10-22 running subsonic rounds. A little shiny rainbow. :D
A little off topic but very amusing to witness.
Keith
Sinister....really appreciate the excellent, and very understandable reply above.
It would be great if you could weigh in on the following questions:
1. Would you take a Recce or SPR rifle into the field if you could only pick one?
2. Would you still take that 5.56 LP AR into the field over a 7.62/.308 16" L129A1/16" MWSE, or a 16" M110C/16" SR-25 EMC?
Reason I ask is because nowadays when I piece together a rifle based on the Recce model, I just can't ever imagine myself taking the 5.56 16" AR over the .308 16" AR.
My MWS flat out dominates both of my Recce, and SPR MRPs....and only weighs a bit less than 2lbs than either one. Mag capacity, ability to carry more ammo on the person, and ammo commonality are all big check marks for the 5.56 rifle, but once you start shooting the rifles, especially north of 600-700yds, the .308 Recce shines big time from what I've been finding thus far.
5.56 Recce VS. 7.62 Recce
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC05207-1.jpg
VooDoo6Actual
10-01-12, 08:58
I just can't ever imagine myself taking the 5.56 16" AR over the .308 16" AR.
My MWS flat out dominates both of my Recce, and SPR MRPs....and only weighs a bit less than 2lbs than either one. Mag capacity, ability to carry more ammo on the person, and ammo commonality are all big check marks for the 5.56 rifle, but once you start shooting the rifles, especially north of 600-700yds, the .308 Recce shines big time from what I've been finding thus far.
Same conclusion for me.
i'm curious about that. for a while i really wanted one of the 16" KAC EMC. i haven't owned a 16" 308 AR yet, and only shot some friends' a few times. conceptually, i thought it would be a winner. but i eventually decided to stick with 223 since i was so heavily invested in that ammo already and it would just cost too much for me to switch to 308.
QuietShootr
10-01-12, 09:56
]Good shooting Trident. That throws some egg in the face of people who say the .223/5.56 cant shoot out to 1000 yards accurately.[/COLOR] Not that Im saying its the best round for that, especially if there is any wind.
My next build is going to be a clone of my M16-SDMR I carried in 05. Maybe I can throw another contender in the mix?
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm229/killerchase2000/Iraq%202003/sdasda.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm229/killerchase2000/Iraq%202003/sdadsasda.jpg
Obviously I would need to get some different glass for the long range stuff.
One of the guys I shoot with won our state F-class championship with a .223 in 2008.
Trident,
Choosing between a 5.56 and a 7.62 really goes back to a METT-T analysis -- what is the enemy most likely to do and what is his most dangerous course of action?
Between a standard carbine, a recce, an SPR, or a 7.62 there really isn't a whole lot of difference. SPRs were built on leftover A1 lowers with fixed buttstocks -- simply because that was what the Navy (Crane) had in storage off the shelf. Nobody disputes that a collapsible stock isn't more user friendly for fit.
5.56 trumps the 7.62 for weight and number of rounds, pound-for-pound. 7.62 has kinetic ass and slightly better wind-bucking ability at 300 yards and beyond. You can simply put out more 5.56, faster. If you're humping up and down mountains between 6,000 and 12,000 feet MSL you'll probably want something easy to carry and swing.
The attached photo shows two carbines fairly close in physical size (7.62 on top, mid-length 5.56 below). Both have 16-inch barrels, both have the same 3-9X magnification. You may carry (on average) seven 5.56 mags or five 7.62 mags, plus all your other mission equipment.
If you're just doing presence (i.e., "Please blow me up") patrols vice deliberate hunter-killer or raid missions the average unit and Joe should base load on probability of contact.
Where you are in your experience time line you are now comfortable and convinced you can consistently hit man-sized targets at 600 yards -- a chip shot. If you were a Joe on a small team you are now (by default, training, and experience) the team's sharpshooter, regardless of pay grade or position. That's usually how it happens when they need someone who no-kidding can shoot the Hajji with the PKM shooting exposed from the next ridge line.
http://i49.tinypic.com/2rw5ag5.jpg
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