View Full Version : Stag Arms Plus Package (Right of Chart to Left)
Just noticed our local AR manufacturer here in CT is now basically offering a mill-spec option for the current line of AR's. For $100 you get the following:
For those wanting a rifle with extra testing and also with features for the constant firing of 5.56 ammunition Stag Arms offers the Plus Package. This package includes individual Magnetic Particle (MP) and High Pressure (HP) testing of the bolt and barrel, upgraded barrel steel, and other features listed below. Available only as a complete package.
Stag Arms standard carbines (Model 1, 2, 2T, 3, 8 and their left-handed equivalents) feature:
- Carpenter 158 shot peened Bolt with black extractor spring
- Shrouded full circle AR15 bolt carrier with side staked carrier key
- 5.56 NATO chambered barrel with chrome lining, 1/9 twist, double lead lapped, and parkerized under the front sight base
- F marked front sight base with taper pins
- Double heatshield handguards
- Mil-Spec size 7000 series aluminum receiver extension with staked receiver nut (also known as castle nut)
- One (1) 30rd USGI Magazine*
In addition to our standard features listed above the Plus Package includes:
- 4150 barrel steel chrome lined
- 1/7 Twist rifling
- M4 feed ramps
- Individually MP & HP tested and marked Bolt & Barrel
- M-16 Bolt Carrier
- Heavy (H) buffer assembly
- Two (2) 30rd USGI Magazines*
It is nice to see stag offering an option to compete with other more fully featured AR's. I was quoted just a little over $900 for a model 2 +.
http://www.stagarms.com/information.php?info_id=13
I know I know its not a "Brand X"...but its a step in the right direction.
-J
I'm glad to see another company finally stepping up and building their rifles properly, the way they should have been all along. It would be better if instead of selling those "options" as an upgrade, Stag just built all their rifles to those specs. This is definitely a positive step though, and good on Stag. I've been using two of their stripped lowers for several years now, but not anything else they make.
I'm glad to see another company finally stepping up and building their rifles properly, the way they should have been all along. It would be better if instead of selling those "options" as an upgrade, Stag just built all their rifles to those specs. This is definitely a positive step though, and good on Stag. I've been using two of their stripped lowers for several years now, but not anything else they make.
Maybe depending on sales they will make it standard, who knows? Either way I agree its nice to see them stepping up. I know they are popular at least here in CT because they offer ban compliant models along with lefty configurations.
-J
theblackknight
05-12-11, 18:58
hopefully they put it all togather good and give us one more option in the industry.
I wonder if they will change the GP size on the 1/7 twist barrels and do a better job of staking the gas key.
C4
lethal dose
05-12-11, 20:01
I wonder if they will change the GP size on the 1/7 twist barrels and do a better job of staking the gas key.
C4
Was wondering the same thing. My buddy's stag's carrier needed restaked. The castle nut was done nicely. Hopefully, they start sticking to the more desirable metals and follow tdp closely. If they do, stag might have a leg in the upper tier ar game. It needs to be realized that these higher standards can be adhered to with negligible price increase.
lethal dose
05-12-11, 20:03
Of course... I won't hold my breath. :cool:
Doesn't Stag already produce an LE/MIL line that follows TDP pretty closely? Given their resources (CMT) I would think that they could get the job done pretty easily. For some reason I would also seem to believe their testing claims more than a lot of other mfgs. It would be nice to have a cheaper 6920 equivalent that was readily available at most local shops.
OP, where are you getting the $100 figure from? Sorry if I missed it.
OP, where are you getting the $100 figure from? Sorry if I missed it.
If you select any of the 5.56 rifles on their site, one of the option boxes is for the "plus package" and it shows +$100 in the drop-down box.
If you select any of the 5.56 rifles on their site, one of the option boxes is for the "plus package" and it shows +$100 in the drop-down box.
Thank you that is exactly what I did, although that is the "listed" price. When I bought my model 2 at the end of last year the price was much lower then listed. I hate to bug dealers with price quotes when I have no intention of buying, but JOJOs here in CT is a great shop for stags. So im not actually sure if its a true +100 to the rifle cost, or actually a little lower. When I got quoted for a model 2 plus, it was not base price +100.
-J
They should just start making ALL their guns to these specs,it's what most people want anyways.
They should just start making ALL their guns to these specs,it's what most people want anyways.
No kidding. :blink:
I'd think it'd be easier to source all your parts the same than run a sub par production gun.
Doesn't Stag already produce an LE/MIL line that follows TDP pretty closely? Given their resources (CMT) I would think that they could get the job done pretty easily. For some reason I would also seem to believe their testing claims more than a lot of other mfgs. It would be nice to have a cheaper 6920 equivalent that was readily available at most local shops.
OP, where are you getting the $100 figure from? Sorry if I missed it.
Interesting thought on CMT. Does CMT = Mil-Spec?
Just curious.
C4
I think that is a good business model. Those who just want a plinker or casual AR can get it at a lower price, those who know enough and/or want better, can get the better one for a decent value.
Doc Safari
05-13-11, 09:31
"Plus Package". What a bunch of marketing bullshit. That they would make features that most knowledgeable people consider standard part of an "upgrade" makes me want to avoid them now. I agree with another poster on another thread that this sounds like an attempt to get their name on the "left of chart" then lose the plus package features at some point while still having their quality certified.
Watch my left hand, watch my left hand, oops, got hit with the right hand.:blink:
"Plus Package". What a bunch of marketing bullshit. That they would make features that most knowledgeable people consider standard part of an "upgrade" makes me want to avoid them now. I agree with another poster on another thread that this sounds like an attempt to get their name on the "left of chart" then lose the plus package features at some point while still having their quality certified.
Watch my left hand, watch my left hand, oops, got hit with the right hand.:blink:
I think they are trying to target two different markets.
Market A) The casual dirt shooter, who just wants a low round count black gun. I would imagine this is a huge portion of the market.
Market B) The informed consumer, the person looking for all the goodies that make you feel warm and fuzzy.
2 cents,
-J
Doc Safari
05-13-11, 09:44
I think they are trying to target two different markets.
Market A) The casual dirt shooter, who just wants a low round count black gun. I would imagine this is a huge portion of the market.
Market B) The informed consumer, the person looking for all the goodies that make you feel warm and fuzzy.
2 cents,
-J
I realize I worded my post a little strongly but I have never fallen for any company's "custom shop" nonsense. It's just an excuse to charge more for what they should do to every firearm that leaves their factory.
It's like having to pay extra to have a car where the brakes actually work and the tires last more than 30,000 miles.
It's just an excuse to charge more for what they should do to every firearm that leaves their factory.
I agree but for only business model B. :p You can't tell me joe dirt needs a 1/7 twist, HP/MP, auto carrier etc. rifle for shooting 100 rounds a year a tin cans?
Heck, most targets I see at the range the rifle is the LAST thing people need to improve. :sarcastic:
Im not trying to turn this into a 1/9 vs 1/7 debate etc, I agree that a mill-spec style rifle is the better option in most casses. Yet for some, it will never matter.
I would love nothing more then for stag to go full lefty and compete with BCM and the like. They bring jobs to the local economy and are decent guys to chat with on the phone. :laugh:
-J
Doc Safari
05-13-11, 09:55
This is just a big pet peeve of mine: the attitude that the company can't or won't make something quality if they don't have to. Only if they think they will lose business do they buck up and make something properly. I wonder how many lower tier components Stag will outsource to China? :sarcastic:
Interesting thought on CMT. Does CMT = Mil-Spec?
Just curious.
C4
Yes, no, maybe, sometimes? Does CMT not have the capability to produce TDP level parts? I was under the impression that they produced everything from hobby-grade to MIL-SPEC?
I actually am curious.
Yes, no, maybe, sometimes? Does CMT not have the capability to produce TDP level parts? I was under the impression that they produced everything from hobby-grade to MIL-SPEC?
I actually am curious.
http://www.continentalmachinetool.com/firearms.html
I guess someone needs to call them? I always heard they provided a lot of parts for companies such as BCM etc...but that was just forum talk.
-J
fiddly_foo
05-13-11, 10:25
Nice to see I live in CT so good to see these guys doing something a little better..
They should just start making ALL their guns to these specs,it's what most people want anyways.
This is my thought exactly! However as my buddy who has over 10 years active duty just proved, some people are willing to save that hundred bucks to just have an AR. Despite everything I told him, he just bought a Stag...
Maybe their thoughts as a company are to offer this option to stay competitive with the high end market, and see if their upgraded models sell enough to justify the increased cost in production?
It's amazing to me that $100-200 is really a make or break point for a lot of the AR market. I'm not going to lie that I fell victim to it a bit myself, but now that I have educated myself it is unbelievable to me how much people are willing to sacrifice in a rifle to save this amount of money.
I think they are trying to target two different markets.
Market A) The casual dirt shooter, who just wants a low round count black gun. I would imagine this is a huge portion of the market.
Market B) The informed consumer, the person looking for all the goodies that make you feel warm and fuzzy.
2 cents,
-J
Just how many rifles do you guys think they sell to members of the B group compared to members of the A group? That is a rhetorical question, not needing response, and not aimed at you. :) And, how important do you think the TDP is to members of the A group, if they even knew what it was? The A group cares about the bottom line price and looks, period, and chances are they never visit an internet forum about their rifle. So, from a business standpoint, why not cater to both groups. Competition for the dollar is a bitch.
http://www.continentalmachinetool.com/firearms.html
I guess someone needs to call them? I always heard they provided a lot of parts for companies such as BCM etc...but that was just forum talk.
-J
I think Grant knew the answer when he asked the question.
Yes, no, maybe, sometimes? Does CMT not have the capability to produce TDP level parts? I was under the impression that they produced everything from hobby-grade to MIL-SPEC?
I actually am curious.
They most likely have the capability (on some things), but I don't know of any mil-spec manufacturer (Colt, BCM, etc) that buy things from them any more.
C4
They most likely have the capability (on some things), but I don't know of any mil-spec manufacturer (Colt, BCM, etc) that buy things from them any more.
C4
Gotcha. I wasn't quite sure what you were getting at in post I quoted. I thought you were insinuating that I thought everything CMT produced was MIL-SPEC.
I realize I worded my post a little strongly but I have never fallen for any company's "custom shop" nonsense. It's just an excuse to charge more for what they should do to every firearm that leaves their factory.
It's like having to pay extra to have a car where the brakes actually work and the tires last more than 30,000 miles.
lol...well said...:D
I guess I'll dissent and say I really don't have a problem with this.
It's a free-market guys. As long as people want cheap, both in quality and in cost, then there will be cheap products. Some people want the Corvette, some people want the Camaro, and some can only afford the Chevette. What's the problem with Chevy offering all three?
On the one hand, it would be nice if Stag offered a completely different model, but at the same time it's nice to see that if you like one of their standard models you can simply add this package.
I suppose there's some danger that someone would see the answers in the new Chart and rush out to their local gunshop and say "gimme one-a them Stags" and wind up without the plus package, but then that's on them. If all you ever did was look at the Chart and blindly run out and pick up whichever one had the most Xs for the cheapest price you get what you deserve. and in truth, you'll probably never know the difference.
Assuming the gas key is staked correctly, does the plus package bring the Stag into line, quality-wise, with other manufacturers like Colt, Daniel Defense, LMT, etc. or are there other, more basic, problems with their guns like quality of machining or materials? Money is not the driving factor, and I'll gladly pay more if it's necessary to get a quality product, but Stag's Model 2T (http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=13_22&products_id=207) with the plus package seems like a reasonable value and I really like the idea of supporting a local manufacturer if the product is worthwhile.
Wow, that is not even a good deal. Heck I could get a way better riffle for less than what they charge for their "better" model.
If the quality is there I thought it did seem like a good value with the Samson rail system and the A.R.M.S. rear sight based on what I've found searching, but I am at the beginning stages of learning about this and could easily be mistaken.
1230 (+100 for plus package) for a stag? Now I see why people bash them.
You can get a better AR from Rainier (rainier upper and lower combo) or from Bravo Company.
Stag impresses me more and more
What makes those other brands better (after the plus package)? This is a real question, since I'm not sold on anything at this point.
ETA: It's. $1,230 after the plus package.
Quiet-Matt
07-09-11, 20:30
Since the "plus" package is the way they should be building their guns anyway, lets drop the "plus" . Instead, perhaps they should call the rest of their offerings the "minus" line so as to not mislead. Just sayin.
A lot of y'all are totally missing the point.
Stag/CMT is running a business. That means catering to the market and demographics.
Some seem to put on blinders when they show up at sites such as M4C.net and assume that because the demand for quality is so high here, that it must be the same everywhere.
As has been said, there are FAR FAR MORE hobby shooters, bubba-bo-bob dirt shooters, etc. then there are folks like those who inhabit these types of websites. People to whom saving cash is more important then their concern if a bolt has been shot peened (as if they would know what that meant anyways), there was parking under the FSB, or who really couldn't give two shits about 1/7 vs 1/9.
If you folks want to beat down Stag/CMT for running a business in a manner that you don't like, go start your own.
I personally beleive that there is no issue with manufacturing products that appeal to different markets. People but cheap cars with basic options vs. expensive cars with package deals all the time and no one bitches that Ford or GM offers "Economy" cars to get business from folks with less disposable income.
That being said, because of my personal demands, I have bought many CMT parts for my builds in the past and continue to do so, but based on personal experience, I have refused to use their barrels. Perhaps things have changed with this switch over to their plus package and I can give one of their barrels a shot in the future.
P.S. comparing a shot peened bolt or parking under the FSB to quality brakes on a car is one of the lamest comparison arguments i've heard in awhile. Nobody dies if their firearm isn't parked under the FSB or there is no shot peening on the bolt. Get real.
I think the original point is that for less money you can buy a better riffle.
polymorpheous
07-09-11, 21:25
They most likely have the capability (on some things), but I don't know of any mil-spec manufacturer (Colt, BCM, etc) that buy things from them any more.
C4
I bought a BCM bolt a year ago and it is marked "CM" and "MP".
My understanding is that the "CM" marking is CMT.
When did BCM stop?
What are the new bolts marked?
FWIW, my complete BCM BCG is not marked in this way.
based on personal experience, I have refused to use their barrels.
Just curious as to why you won't use their barrels? I have taken a glance or two at Stag's plus package 11.5 upper and wanted your opinion on their barrels
I got one and she's pretty much a champ. Staked BCG and all. I've only put about 2k rounds thru her, but she runs like my Colt 6920, eats everything and shoots out the empties.
And you can buy a brand spanking new Colt 6920 for $1050, all day long.
Heck, and if you are patient, you can pick up used Colt ARs in the $700-800 range. From CDNN and other retailers.
So, why would anyone buy an "upgraded" gun from a company that normally turns out substandard product? This is what I do not get.
Just curious as to why you won't use their barrels? I have taken a glance or two at Stag's plus package 11.5 upper and wanted your opinion on their barrels
Seen several extrordinarily rough chambers, stuck casings because of it.
The owners sent the rifles back and one of them had to send it back a second time because the replacement barrel did the same thing.
So, why would anyone buy an "upgraded" gun from a company that normally turns out substandard product? This is what I do not get.
This is where you're not understanding.
Their other products are not "substandard". They meet the standards for the market which they are selling to.
So now they make a product that meets the "standard" of folks like you and me. Nothing wrong with that.
This is where you're not understanding.
Their other products are not "substandard". They meet the standards for the market which they are selling to.
So now they make a product that meets the "standard" of folks like you and me. Nothing wrong with that.
=====================================
Grumpy,
It is not a "standard" if everyone has a different one.
You're referring to an opinion and they can (and do) vary amongst people, generally because of varying degrees of ignorance or knowledge.
But maybe it's just me...
.
This is where you're not understanding.
Their other products are not "substandard". They meet the standards for the market which they are selling to.
So now they make a product that meets the "standard" of folks like you and me. Nothing wrong with that.
Yes, there is "something wrong with it".
Because you're talking about a shitty product which is priced almost exactly the same as an excellent product.
And for just $100 more, you "might" be able to upgrade that steaming pile of shit to something approximating the excellent product.
Sure, it's their money, but that doesn't change the fact that those who buy them are ****ing idiots.
Seen several extrordinarily rough chambers, stuck casings because of it.
The owners sent the rifles back and one of them had to send it back a second time because the replacement barrel did the same thing.
Noted. Thanks for the input. On paper they look good. Do not think ill go with one
As usual, agree wholeheartedly w/ 120!! Why would I buy an " upgraded" Stag, if I can get a real-deal Colt for the same money??
Among other things, in CT you can't own a Colt AR-15 or sporter. I think the Stag equivalent to the Colt 6920 is a wash, price-wise, after the plus package. The thing I am trying to get a handle on is, is the Stag with the plus package really a"shitty product" or not? If so, why? Issues with the barrels, as Grumpy noted, would seem to say yes. That's the first concrete thing I've seen.
GeorgiaBoy
07-09-11, 23:31
I generally support Stag's option of this. To me its just a fine example of American business and the free-market. They are exanding their product line to meet more demand and a larger customer base.
That being said, I still probably wouldn't buy one, at least just yet.
Yes, there is "something wrong with it".
Because you're talking about a shitty product which is priced almost exactly the same as an excellent product.
What's shitty about it? Who's going to die because the barrel isn't parked under the FSB? If they go bang when the "average" user wants it to, what's shitty about it?
Now if we were talking about barrels that burned out in 5000 rounds, bolts that regularly broke at 3000 rounds,poor anodizing, recievers machined to improper tolerances,receiver extension threads machined off axis, etc. then you would have a very good point.
These are not the issues we are dealing with in this situation.
And for just $100 more, you "might" be able to upgrade that steaming pile of shit to something approximating the excellent product.
Steaming pile of shit? You're obviously emotionally invested in decreeing Stag/CMT gear as crap. What is your personal issue with them?
Sure, it's their money, but that doesn't change the fact that those who buy them are ****ing idiots.
You mean like all the folks on this board that own them? Pretty broad strokes you're using. You do realize that you're talking about a pretty big group of average American shooters in a highly negative manner simply because you don't agree with their idea of acceptable. That group of "average" American shooters includes many LE, current and former Mil guys who just want something to shoot for shits and giggles, and a whole boatload of other folks from all sorts of different backgrounds.
Do you really think that you are capable of making a judgment on what they need moreso then they are?
Once again, what's your dog in this fight?
Among other things, in CT you can't own a Colt AR-15 or sporter. I think the Stag equivalent to the Colt 6920 is a wash, price-wise, after the plus package. The thing I am trying to get a handle on is, is the Stag with the plus package really a"shitty product" or not? If so, why? Issues with the barrels, as Grumpy noted, would seem to say yes. That's the first concrete thing I've seen.
Don't take what I say as gospel. It's a very limited cross section of experience with *2* rifles.
Just for the heck of it i'll also throw in that a guy I know bought a lefty Stag which had to be sent back 3 times, twice to try and fix failure to extract issues (not related to the barrel or chamber to the best of my knowledge) and the third time to exchange it for a right hand model which has worked perfectly for the last 4 years or so.
=====================================
Grumpy,
It is not a "standard" if everyone has a different one.
You're referring to an opinion and they can (and do) vary amongst people, generally because of varying degrees of ignorance or knowledge.
But maybe it's just me...
.
Don't fall into the trap of thinking that just because a rifle doesn't meet a certian specification that it is "sub-standard".
My personal belief is that a rifle (or any other piece of equipment) that is poorly or mis-machined, has an improperly applied finish (lets say Bushmaster back in the purple anodizing days), etc. would apply as sub standard.
If a company decides that various steps are not necessary in the process that do not affect the function of the item in question, so long as it meets their standards of material the item is made from, the tolerances of manufacture, finish, etc., and the product works as advertised, then the product is not "sub-standard".
Just because it doesn't meet *our* demands, doesn't mean it's "sub standard".
What's shitty about it? Who's going to die because the barrel isn't parked under the FSB? If they go bang when the "average" user wants it to, what's shitty about it?
Now if we were talking about barrels that burned out in 5000 rounds, bolts that regularly broke at 3000 rounds,poor anodizing, recievers machined to improper tolerances,receiver extension threads machined off axis, etc. then you would have a very good point.
These are not the issues we are dealing with in this situation.
Steaming pile of shit? You're obviously emotionally invested in decreeing Stag/CMT gear as crap. What is your personal issue with them?
You mean like all the folks on this board that own them? Pretty broad strokes you're using. You do realize that you're talking about a pretty big group of average American shooters in a highly negative manner simply because you don't agree with their idea of acceptable. That group of "average" American shooters includes many LE, current and former Mil guys who just want something to shoot for shits and giggles, and a whole boatload of other folks from all sorts of different backgrounds.
Do you really think that you are capable of making a judgment on what they need moreso then they are?
Once again, what's your dog in this fight?
My "dog in this fight" is that the entire reason this forum used to exist is to point out that there are material and functional differences between various manufactured carbines.
I'm amazed that you haven't been monkeystomped by others for some of your statements in this thread.
BTW, throwing in the patriotic appeal by mentioning LE and servicemembers is a cheap and disgusting technique that is beyond the pale, imo. I'm in my 30th year of military service and from my direct experience, 90+% of servicemembers are ****ing idiots when it comes to AR/M4 knowledge. It actually is worse than just ignorance, and is firmly in the active idiocy category for a lot of them. And based on my limited exposure to LEOs, they are even worse.
To say that consumers should be happy to pay the same price for a objectively lesser quality carbine, is nuts and does not belong on this forum.
Are you unable to comprehend that a $1050 Colt 6920 is a superior product to a $1230 Stag in price and (probably) quality? What about cheaper price and better reputation are you too ****ing dense to get?
For $1299 you are firmly into Colt 6940 territory, btw.
I get that some states have Colt's carbines verboten by name, but surely there are better choices than Stag. And Stag may choose to improve their product, but like the other schlockmeister AR producers, they have a lot to prove before they are accepted as a true producer of quality. Adding $100 to the price and saying that this time, no kidding, they are going to produce a quality product just doesn't cut it.
Don't fall into the trap of thinking that just because a rifle doesn't meet a certian specification that it is "sub-standard".
My personal belief is that a rifle (or any other piece of equipment) that is poorly or mis-machined, has an improperly applied finish (lets say Bushmaster back in the purple anodizing days), etc. would apply as sub standard.
If a company decides that various steps are not necessary in the process that do not affect the function of the item in question, so long as it meets their standards of material the item is made from, the tolerances of manufacture, finish, etc., and the product works as advertised, then the product is not "sub-standard".
Just because it doesn't meet *our* demands, doesn't mean it's "sub standard".
My problem is that when you look at pricing. How can you justify 4140 1/9 twist questionably chambered guns that cost the same or are more expensive than 4150 steel 1/7 twist properly chambered guns?
The plus package adds a 4150 chrome lined 1/7 twist barrel, M4 feed ramps and M16 bolt. That was why I asked the question I asked, The specific model I thought seemed like a value includes a Samson rail system and A.R.M.S. flip up rear sight at $1,230 after plus package. Other than the fact that I would like to have a local option that works well I have no investment in Stag. I don't own one and I don't need to. But if it's become a good option now I'd like to know that. That's the only reason I keep pressing this one.
My "dog in this fight" is that the entire reason this forum used to exist is to point out that there are material and functional differences between various manufactured carbines.
And here I thought that this forum existed for likeminded people to share and exchange information and discuss mutually shared ideals across a wide variety of topics in a manner that was waaaayyyy less retarded then on arfcom.
Silly me.
I'm amazed that you haven't been monkeystomped by others for some of your statements in this thread.
Monkeystomped for what? Pointing out that what you demand out of a rifle isn't what everybody else on the damn planet wants out of a rifle?
Want to monkeystomp me? Be my guest. Stomp away. Be sure to list the exact statements worthy of a good old fashioned "monkeystomp" and please be creative. I'm easily bored by simple swearing.
BTW, throwing in the patriotic appeal by mentioning LE and servicemembers is a cheap and disgusting technique that is beyond the pale, imo. I'm in my 30th year of military service and from my direct experience, 90+% of servicemembers are ****ing idiots when it comes to AR/M4 knowledge. It actually is worse than just ignorance, and is firmly in the active idiocy category for a lot of them. And based on my limited exposure to LEOs, they are even worse.
Patriotic appeal? No, simply pointing out that a good portion of the people you're shitting on are folks who, like you, go do a tough job but don't have the same demands of a rifle that you do, and happen to represent a wide snapshot of American consumers that you just decided to take a huge dump on. The only difference between you and them is that they havn't deluded themselves into thinking that they know what's best for everybody else and fling insult about at people simply because they don't agree with them.
Call it cheap, call it disgusting, I don't give a shit. I respect those "****ing idiots" as you call them more then I do for you because they don't feel the need to shit on others to convince themselves of their own superiority.
Do you really think that lowly of your co-workers and so much of the rest of America?
How does that old saying go.......
"When nobody around you seems to measure up, it's time to check your yardstick."
To say that consumers should be happy to pay the same price for a objectively lesser quality carbine, is nuts and does not belong on this forum.
Quote me where I said that. Please. RIF. People get to choose to spend their money any damn way they please and if they decide they don't care if an AR has a shot peened bolt, a commercial buffer tube, or parking under the FSB, then that's their business. Turns out, most of them don't care either. It doesn't make them "****ing idiots", nor does it make the company who makes the product or the product itself a piece of shit either.
But here's you spewing your vitriol about the companies that make a less expensive product and on the consumers who don't care about the same things you do. And why? I dunno, why don't you tell us why you're being so pissy about something so simple, inconsequential, and frankly has ZERO impact on your life.
Are you unable to comprehend that a $1050 Colt 6920 is a superior product to a $1230 Stag in price and (probably) quality? What about cheaper price and better reputation are you too ****ing dense to get?
Once again, RIF. I never said Stag/CMT was superior to Colt. I'll i've done is point out that they have tried to appeal to a broader market then your or my gunsafe, and that your and my needs are not everybody elses needs and it's not for you or me to cast judgement on them for it.
You're grasping at straws and being intellectually dishonest while doing it.
For $1299 you are firmly into Colt 6940 territory, btw
I get that some states have Colt's carbines verboten by name, but surely there are better choices than Stag. And Stag may choose to improve their product, but like the other schlockmeister AR producers, they have a lot to prove before they are accepted as a true producer of quality. Adding $100 to the price and saying that this time, no kidding, they are going to produce a quality product just doesn't cut it.
Just because it doesn't cut it for you doesn't mean that it won't cut it for someone else.
Like you, i'm in the "might as well buy a colt" category, but I ain't about to start shitting on a company taking steps to appeal to a broader market or the people who don't need a rifle for the same purpose that you or even I want one for.
In the end, the real point of this thread is that people are finally listening. There have been companies (BC) that came into the scene with their finger on the pulse of the hard use community like us and did things to our standards from the get-go, whereas many, including some of the older companies (bushmaster) have been doing things "their way" for a long time and not really caring otherwise.
But now, our community has grown to the point where we have enough influence that companies are finally opening their ears and finally making products that cater to *our* needs as well as the mass market.
Do you think they listen to people like you who scream and yell about people you don't agree with or folks who politly ask and pressure them to make a better product?
Ya know what, I bet you own a pickup truck. I'll bet it meets your "standards" so you like it. Do you call everybody on the road in an economy car a "****ing idiot" because they didn't buy a truck like yours too?
On a different note, some folks here are too locked into this price thing. Everybody knows that the MSRP is always above what the rifle can actually be found for and the reality is that the price will be much lower then the price that keeps getting listed in this thread.
My problem is that when you look at pricing. How can you justify 4140 1/9 twist questionably chambered guns that cost the same or are more expensive than 4150 steel 1/7 twist properly chambered guns?
Firstly, as has been pointed out by others, the new package includes a 1/7, 4150, etc. A "mil-spec" package minuse the FA capability.
Well, mostly Milspec as it also comes with a Samson rail system and an ARMs BUIS which actually puts it slighly ahead of even Colt in cost vs. utility. Please note how I said cost vs. utility, not cost vs. quality. While I believe that Stag/CMT makes *most* of their products to a very high standard( I happily use their lowers, LPK's, BCG's, upper recievers, etc. in my builds at times), they have in fact fallen short (in my opinion) in a few areas so I simply chose not to buy those products from them.
Secondly, as I pointed out in my last post, the MSRP on any companys website will virtually always be higher then the product will be found at local shops or through dealers online. Far too much emphasis has been placed on the prices listed on Stags website.
Here, let me help y'all out.
Head to Stags website here: http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=13_22&products_id=205, and you'll find the gun that closest competes with the Colt 6920.
The price is $950. Add $100 for the plus package and they are the same price wise, and theoretically quality wise as well.
Now factor in that the Colt price is absolutly at $1050 new, but the Stag will be less locally or via standard sellers on the 'net (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_800/products_id/411535182), and *theoretically* the Stag will have the same quality and be the inexpensive one.
Now lets say you have a guy who agrees with our requirements for a good fighting carbine, but is on a budget. The Stag is a viable option.
Erik,
Regardless of whether or not you can own a Colt in CT. There are still plenty of other options that are legal and better than the Stag. You can build a BCM carbine for less and I am pretty sure that if you look around you can get a DD as well.
In any case I wouldn't reward a substandard manufacturer.
Among other things, in CT you can't own a Colt AR-15 or sporter. I think the Stag equivalent to the Colt 6920 is a wash, price-wise, after the plus package. The thing I am trying to get a handle on is, is the Stag with the plus package really a"shitty product" or not? If so, why? Issues with the barrels, as Grumpy noted, would seem to say yes. That's the first concrete thing I've seen.
This is pretty much spot on.
My "dog in this fight" is that the entire reason this forum used to exist is to point out that there are material and functional differences between various manufactured carbines.
I'm amazed that you haven't been monkeystomped by others for some of your statements in this thread.
BTW, throwing in the patriotic appeal by mentioning LE and servicemembers is a cheap and disgusting technique that is beyond the pale, imo. I'm in my 30th year of military service and from my direct experience, 90+% of servicemembers are ****ing idiots when it comes to AR/M4 knowledge. It actually is worse than just ignorance, and is firmly in the active idiocy category for a lot of them. And based on my limited exposure to LEOs, they are even worse.
To say that consumers should be happy to pay the same price for a objectively lesser quality carbine, is nuts and does not belong on this forum.
Are you unable to comprehend that a $1050 Colt 6920 is a superior product to a $1230 Stag in price and (probably) quality? What about cheaper price and better reputation are you too ****ing dense to get?
For $1299 you are firmly into Colt 6940 territory, btw.
I get that some states have Colt's carbines verboten by name, but surely there are better choices than Stag. And Stag may choose to improve their product, but like the other schlockmeister AR producers, they have a lot to prove before they are accepted as a true producer of quality. Adding $100 to the price and saying that this time, no kidding, they are going to produce a quality product just doesn't cut it.
polymorpheous
07-10-11, 08:31
My "dog in this fight" is that the entire reason this forum used to exist is to point out that there are material and functional differences between various manufactured carbines.
I'm amazed that you haven't been monkeystomped by others for some of your statements in this thread.
BTW, throwing in the patriotic appeal by mentioning LE and servicemembers is a cheap and disgusting technique that is beyond the pale, imo. I'm in my 30th year of military service and from my direct experience, 90+% of servicemembers are ****ing idiots when it comes to AR/M4 knowledge. It actually is worse than just ignorance, and is firmly in the active idiocy category for a lot of them. And based on my limited exposure to LEOs, they are even worse.
To say that consumers should be happy to pay the same price for a objectively lesser quality carbine, is nuts and does not belong on this forum.
Are you unable to comprehend that a $1050 Colt 6920 is a superior product to a $1230 Stag in price and (probably) quality? What about cheaper price and better reputation are you too ****ing dense to get?
For $1299 you are firmly into Colt 6940 territory, btw.
I get that some states have Colt's carbines verboten by name, but surely there are better choices than Stag. And Stag may choose to improve their product, but like the other schlockmeister AR producers, they have a lot to prove before they are accepted as a true producer of quality. Adding $100 to the price and saying that this time, no kidding, they are going to produce a quality product just doesn't cut it.
Amen to that brother!
Thank you. I appreciate everybody's input.
Here, let me help y'all out.
Head to Stags website here: http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=13_22&products_id=205, and you'll find the gun that closest competes with the Colt 6920.
The price is $950. Add $100 for the plus package and they are the same price wise, and theoretically quality wise as well.
For less than $950 you can pin a BCM or DD upper to a quality complete lower and STILL have a better gun than a STAG.
Now factor in that the Colt price is absolutly at $1050 new, but the Stag will be less locally or via standard sellers on the 'net (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_800/products_id/411535182), and *theoretically* the Stag will have the same quality and be the inexpensive one.
Now lets say you have a guy who agrees with our requirements for a good fighting carbine, but is on a budget. The Stag is a viable option.
If $100 makes the difference between owning and not owning an AR carbine, dudes got bigger issues. And frankly, I could give a shit about the "100 round a year" and "safequeen" owners.
Have you noticed that M4C has influenced makers to change their manufacturing standards? It's not because we've taken the "as good as" or even "good enough" line.
If Joe six-pack wants a plinker, he can get a cheap carbine from Palmetto State Armory that actually comes very close to mil-spec for something like $550. Stags are bad because they are neither "fish, fowl or good red meat." And they tend to sell for Colt prices at the local gunstore.
This is a point I have made several times. If you make a decision based upon 100-200.00 dollars then you need to buy something else. In addition to the cost of the weapon there is still ammunition, magazines, cleaning kit and other stuff.
You will not be able to be able to shoot the weapon or clean it in which case it's a waste of time and money.
For less than $950 you can pin a BCM or DD upper to a quality complete lower and STILL have a better gun than a STAG.
If $100 makes the difference between owning and not owning an AR carbine, dudes got bigger issues. And frankly, I could give a shit about the "100 round a year" and "safequeen" owners.
Have you noticed that M4C has influenced makers to change their manufacturing standards? It's not because we've taken the "as good as" or even "good enough" line.
If Joe six-pack wants a plinker, he can get a cheap carbine from Palmetto State Armory that actually comes very close to mil-spec for something like $550. Stags are bad because they are neither "fish, fowl or good red meat." And they tend to sell for Colt prices at the local gunstore.
This is a point I have made several times. If you make a decision based upon 100-200.00 dollars then you need to buy something else. In addition to the cost of the weapon there is still ammunition, magazines, cleaning kit and other stuff.
You will not be able to be able to shoot the weapon or clean it in which case it's a waste of time and money.
It's a very good point and one I have made in other contexts. To be clear about my own position, the money isn't an issue and I am actually a "buy once, cry once" believer, having learned that the hard way. At the same time, I don't want to pay more than I have to for quality parts and I do like the idea of supporting a local company if it makes sense. I am in the market for my first M4. I want to do it right AND at the best cost I can, and I genuinely appreciate the input I've gotten here.
just out of curiosity how is it that a senior member(120mm) can use words like "shitty", monkeystomped, "****ing idiots" to describe a particular segment of people and a manufacturer and still be on this forum. i have seen people banned for less and im pretty sure i will be after this post but i have to ask the moderators. does being a senior member give u some sort of leeway to say crass things or its all subjective? and way to go GRUMPY u didnt back down.
Failure2Stop
07-10-11, 12:09
just out of curiosity how is it that a senior member(120mm) can use words like "shitty", monkeystomped, "****ing idiots" to describe a particular segment of people and a manufacturer and still be on this forum. i have seen people banned for less and im pretty sure i will be after this post but i have to ask the moderators. does being a senior member give u some sort of leeway to say crass things or its all subjective? and way to go GRUMPY u didnt back down.
If you think we ban people over such trivialities as disagreeing on whether or not they need a 4150 barrel, you are mistaken.
Our members are free to disagree over whatever they want, and as long as it remaing pertinent to the discussion and doesn't devolve to personal insults, it's fine. Further, people are free to use whatever words they choose as long as it is not excessive or personal. While 120 used words that can be insulting, they were not directed at anyone personally, and pretty much reflect the informed user.
just out of curiosity how is it that a senior member(120mm) can use words like "shitty", monkeystomped, "****ing idiots" to describe a particular segment of people and a manufacturer and still be on this forum. i have seen people banned for less and im pretty sure i will be after this post but i have to ask the moderators. does being a senior member give u some sort of leeway to say crass things or its all subjective? and way to go GRUMPY u didnt back down.
That's just his style of talking. And he didn't insult anyone directly. The Mods seem fine with dissenting opinions, just not childish BS.
and way to go GRUMPY u didnt back down.
This isnt an elementary school playground fight. I doubt either person is taking this personally. I think your view on this debate is skewed a bit. And you might not believe it or agree with it- but 120mm is trying to help new buyers.
Have you ever seen someone banned from this site for using bad language? I read what he said, and I am personally Ok with it. He didn't personally insult anyone. He stated something that has been stated many times over on this site. Hell I have probably said it as well.
He isn't atacking Grumpy. He is attacking the message.
just out of curiosity how is it that a senior member(120mm) can use words like "shitty", monkeystomped, "****ing idiots" to describe a particular segment of people and a manufacturer and still be on this forum. i have seen people banned for less and im pretty sure i will be after this post but i have to ask the moderators. does being a senior member give u some sort of leeway to say crass things or its all subjective? and way to go GRUMPY u didnt back down.
i happen to be one of those "****ing idiots" that bought a stag so yeah i take it personally. and by the way a reasonably educated person can get their point across without using profanities. its just curious to see that u think that my post is childish but u have/or cant see my point made above. and yes i have seen 1 former member banned for using "language that is not consistent with the rules of this forum"
totenkopf_u64
07-10-11, 12:59
i happen to be one of those "****ing idiots" that bought a stag so yeah i take it personally. and by the way a reasonably educated person can get their point across without using profanities. its just curious to see that u think that my post is childish but u have/or cant see my point made above. and yes i have seen 1 former member banned for using "language that is not consistent with the rules of this forum"
Let's defuse this. You're insulted because of the perceived inferiority of something you bought. if you're upset, it's because of that... not something a stranger said to you. Also, this is now heading for ban land if you begin implying certain people are not "reasonably educated". There is no need for butt hurt... let's all get along.
On topic. My brother swears by his RRA despite everything I have learned while putting my first build together. He pretty much says "sure, the BCG may be made of cheese and it won't swallow as many turds and still shoot like your BCM gun... but it works great for me." And it does. He shoots a lot. Maybe they are inherently less reliable and maybe not... it comes down to due diligence in research, and buying to suit your personal needs. I think the less exspensive guns serve a purpose.
TonyTacoma
07-10-11, 13:04
Lol this thread is stupid, stag can **** off. Yea great they now offer a better rifle, who gives a shit, im still not buying one.
paulb,
Where did I say that you were childish? You are actually wearing thin my patience. Sorry that you feel slighted. Maybe this just isn't the place for you.
I can't see your POV because it doesn't make sense to me.
i happen to be one of those "****ing idiots" that bought a stag so yeah i take it personally. and by the way a reasonably educated person can get their point across without using profanities. its just curious to see that u think that my post is childish but u have/or cant see my point made above. and yes i have seen 1 former member banned for using "language that is not consistent with the rules of this forum"
i have had some minor issues with stag. but that could have been from the retailer who re-modded it to be NY compliant cuz he is being investigated now by the DA. i have 4 ARs and stag is about in the middle of them. i have had more probs with my S&W and bushy. thats my 2 cents i think they are in the middle of the line.
GeorgiaBoy
07-10-11, 13:50
I have a good feeling this thread will the 10th thread locked in the past 10 days. I may be wrong but isn't this a tad to much than usual?
I'm ready for the old M4Carbine.net to come back. :(
yup i agree it should be closed
wolf_walker
07-10-11, 14:02
I love you guys, and I appreciate the hell out of you. All of you. Ok almost all of you. There's nothing I like more than taking on a new machine, new system, new "thing" and learning it's in's and out's.
You folks make that much more possible, and cheaper. I know from past experience and years of observation you'll never convince some(most even) people of some things though. But you are doing your part having the info out there for those that will listen. Never doubt people do listen, even if it's quietly. Thanks.
paulb,
Where did I say that you were childish? You are actually wearing thin my patience. Sorry that you feel slighted. Maybe this just isn't the place for you.
I can't see your POV because it doesn't make sense to me.
I think he was talking about what I said. But I didn't call him childish. Only stated that big boy language is allowed, but childish posts aren't.
In retrospect, I will say the comment about standing up to big, bad Iraq Gunz and 120mm is borderline childish though. This isnt senior members and mods vs. newcomers with their own views on "quality" ARs. There's no red and blue team.
I think what 120mm and IG was trying to say is that if you buy a Stag that's the same price as a BCM/Colt/DD - you probably didn't know any better. If you bought a Stag at the same price and DID know better - then I can see their stance and why it may anger some. But it's 100% spot on.
And I actually agree with what Rob said a couple pages back, so I'm not dog-piling against Stag per se. It's just the free market at work.
I think some people need to read the mission statement of this forum. This forum is geared to the mil/Leo crowd and others who see their AR as a fighting tool first and foremost. That's why we don't like subpar weapons. If you like them for plinking, good for you. But done expect us to believe they are good equipment.
Gunz and 120-rock on. Couldn't agree more. An "educated" buyer has a higher degree of probability of not buying a Stag. Particularly if the education came courtesy of M4C. I will say that someone could be educated and choose a non-Tier 1 rifle because this person came to the conclusion their needs do not require the differences.
However, with the price gap between lower Tier rifles and Tier 1 being quite close, with 6920's available for approx. $1K, then going for the better rifle makes even more sense, even if one does not feel they need them at this time. We have all seen what BRD does to people; especially when one starts taking quality training classes.
Work2shoot
07-10-11, 17:39
I have to say that before this site I was going to buy a post ban bushmaster. I would have felt as mad as some of the folks in this thread if I'd bought it and then found out I'd made a mistake.
But let me say this guys, if it works for you, it works. Don't let it bother you. Seriously.
For less than $950 you can pin a BCM or DD upper to a quality complete lower and STILL have a better gun than a STAG.
Ok, at this point you are being entirely subjective about which is "better", and I at least went and did some homework instead of throwing out unsubstantiated claims regarding price.
IF the Stag gun now meets all the criteria for Mil-spec, who's to say the other guns are better? Isn't the chart what was at the crux of this entire conversation? According to many, if a gun is on the "correct" side of the chart, it's GTG.
So, at this point with a statement like that, the onerous is on you to prove it with more then "They made a shitty produt in the past (which you still havn't proved) so what they make now must still be shit!"
Now about your claims of cost. A BCM upper (minus the BCG, CH, handguards, etc. is $400. A Bravo BCG is $140, CH is $23, a carry handle is $110, and lastly double heat shield hadnguards are $23.
Add all that up and we have $696. Just for an upper that competes with the 6920 upper.
Grab a PSA classic complete lower at $239 and you've got $935. A BCM lower with standard M4 stock is $360 making it $1056.(cos blem lower would bring that down to $985) Throw on an LMT lower at $330 and you get $1026.
Wanna do it super cheap? Get a "close to milspec" upper from PSA (and to be honest, I can't find anything about it that says any of it isn't milspec so it really does seem like a good deal) for $400. Doesn't come with a carry handle so add another $110 (can't find carry handles on PSA site so I stuck with BCM) and THEN add another %11 percent because it's now being sold as a rifle and thusly needs the tax paid on it as a rifle. All that equals $831.
Wheras the Stag can be had for $760 pre upgrade, and most likely around $850 with the plus package actually making the PSA gun very competitive.
There it is. Hard numbers. Taken from BCMs site, Palmettos site, Rainier Arms site and that shop I listed in a previous post.
If $100 makes the difference between owning and not owning an AR carbine, dudes got bigger issues. And frankly, I could give a shit about the "100 round a year" and "safequeen" owners.
Of course. You've made it clear that you don't give a shit about anybody that doesn't think lockstep with you.
Last I checked though (my math may be fuzzy on this) if a Stag Model 1 (closest to the 6920) can be had for $760, + $100 for an upgrade making it approx $860, and it meets all the requirements of the mythical chart, doesn't that make it approx $200 cheaper then a colt for *theoretically* the same quality? Don't forget that CMT used to be a Colt supplier, so technically they have the ability to make products just as good as Colt.
Have you noticed that M4C has influenced makers to change their manufacturing standards? It's not because we've taken the "as good as" or even "good enough" line.
And they certianly didn't do it because of people ranting and raving like looneys either.
If Joe six-pack wants a plinker, he can get a cheap carbine from Palmetto State Armory that actually comes very close to mil-spec for something like $550. Stags are bad because they are neither "fish, fowl or good red meat." And they tend to sell for Colt prices at the local gunstore.
Wait, wut? So now PSA gets a pass at not making milspec because they are on your GTG list? Why don't you call them the same thing you called Stag because they don't make a "perfect" rifle for you from the get-go? Why don't you call all PSA owners "****ing idiots" for buying guns that are "close" to mil-spec rather then perfect for your use?
And blame their sales price at TLGS on the gun shop, not Stag. I've already listed a place that sells them for $760 (pre-plus package).
And I see it. The bias is personal. Somebody just wanted something to rave and rant about.
At this point, you've nothing to say that i'll listen to unless you have proof or facts to back it up. You've already made it so that the chart is meaningless because you are arbitrarty in how you apply it (Stag sucks by PSA gets a pass).
If you stick by your contention that Stag puts out a "piece of shit" product, prove it. At least I put out my personal negative observations of one of their products (that I don't even think they make in-house) and have also stated that i've used most of the rest of thier products for years with zero issue and will continue to do so if I so choose. And, insofar as the issue I noticed, they may have fixed that issue as it was over 3 years since that happened and I havn't seen another issue like it since.
What do you have to back up your contentions that Stag/CMT sucks other then the fact that you decided one day that you didn't like them?
This forum relys heavily on facts, so it's put up or shut up time.
polymorpheous
07-10-11, 19:25
BCM blem lower complete $289
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM
BCM 16" M4 profile upper complete $580.95
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=UPR-BCM
Magpul MBUS can be had for around $50.
Same with a quality carry handle.
That's $919.95 for one of the best quality carbine you'll find.
Now can we please take the pissing contest to PMs?
I'm tired of clearing out my inbox of this.
This is a point I have made several times. If you make a decision based upon 100-200.00 dollars then you need to buy something else. In addition to the cost of the weapon there is still ammunition, magazines, cleaning kit and other stuff.
You will not be able to be able to shoot the weapon or clean it in which case it's a waste of time and money.
This is being a bit disingenuous.
While folks like us don't have to justify our purchases, not everybody lives the same lifestyle, or has access to the same kind of cash you do.
When faced with "the list" and a person has cash in hand that they've scraped up long and hard to save (and have a wife to justify their purchases to), they can see that a Stag Model 1 with the upgrade fits all the requirements of the list at a much cheaper price then the Colt. Now they can go buy that cleaning kit, extra magazines, a sling, a travel bag for the rifle, etc, and even some ammunition.
Add to that I still have yet to have anybody explain exactly *WHY* Stag is a poor quality product based on anything other then they are on the wrong side of the chart.(which now they make a product that isn't)
Like I said, other then an issue that I saw 3 to 4 years ago, and not even on guns that I own, I have never had an issue with Stag/CMT parts and i've been using their stuff easily since '05, and have built a fair amount of guns for other folks using CMT parts as well without a single issue.
It's starting to seem to me that some folks just want a new whipping boy and Stag/CMT is in the crosshairs.
just out of curiosity how is it that a senior member(120mm) can use words like "shitty", monkeystomped, "****ing idiots" to describe a particular segment of people and a manufacturer and still be on this forum. i have seen people banned for less and im pretty sure i will be after this post but i have to ask the moderators. does being a senior member give u some sort of leeway to say crass things or its all subjective? and way to go GRUMPY u didnt back down.
Dude, chill. It's all good. Nobody is angry off on my end, it's just a "heated" debate but it remains a "debate" instead of turning into a pissing match and that's what matters.
I'd still happily shoot next to any one of these ****ers in a heartbeat.
- 5.56 NATO chambered barrel with chrome lining, 1/9 twist, double lead lapped, and parkerized under the front sight base
Can someone explain the benefit of lead lapping or double lead lapping a barrel?
This is the second time I have seen this recently and am unfamiliar with the term or it's intended benefits.
Is this the same as regularly lapping a barrel? Is this a barrel break in thing?
Failure2Stop
07-10-11, 20:02
Grumpy-
Seriously, you need to pull your ego out of this and do actual research on this forum. There are numerous technical threads, backed up with testing and broad spectrum analysis, not sample sizes of 1 to 5, which is pretty much useless unless you are the guy that owns those guns.
Really; read more, post less, shoot as much as possible and feel free to monitor your growth and changes in opinion.
But I just want to make sure that the following is the final word in this thread:
I think some people need to read the mission statement of this forum. This forum is geared to the mil/Leo crowd and others who see their AR as a fighting tool first and foremost. That's why we don't like subpar weapons. If you like them for plinking, good for you. But done expect us to believe they are good equipment.
Fin.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.