View Full Version : Move back to GI magazines - a journey
I've been accumulating bits and pieces to make a move back to my preferred magazine setup of GI magazines, Magpul followers, and Magpul Rangerplates. My reasons are varied, but the reality is that my transition to primarily Pmags was mostly accidental. I happened to use a few GI magazines in recent months and was reminded both of how much I like them, but of how much more I like them with the Ranger Plates installed (the ones I used recently lacked them). This is obviously not a cost-saving measure as GI mag + Magpul follower + Ranger Plate > Pmag alone.
I've begun digging through my old stashes of this and that, mostly magazines that slowly got put away as I used them less and less.
The first thing of interest that I found was my old stash of "pre-ban" magazines. Since so many of our members of late appear to have come to the AR after the ban ended, this may be a confusing concept. During the ban, one would scrape and scheme to get 20- and 30-round magazines from any source. Most often they were from guys that got out of the military and brought a handful of magazines with them. You'd pay (too much) for them, and the conventional wisdom of the time was you'd swap out the black follower (if so equipped) for the green one (which was current new issue at the time). Then you'd mark it somehow to identify it, and go shoot it to see if it actually worked. I typically replaced the springs too, just to be sure. If it didn't work, many people would invest hours trying to figure out why and fix it, because you couldn't simply go buy more. NIW GI mags, when they came available, were often $30.
I worked at a gunshop, and and army surplus shop, so we had a fair amount come through. NIW I never opened, and still have a good number of those, but used ones I went through the process outlined above. Below is the result of that, and these are my stash of pre-ban, used, but heavily function-tested and known-reliable magazines. Some of the 20s are actually newer, but the majority are also used. You'll notice that some kept the black followers, and some eventually got Magpul followers.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/936c5658.jpg
This is one of a few parts boxes I came across. I never threw anything out. I even have boxes of the used, shorter, unserviceable springs. At the time everyone assumed the ban would get extended and eventually we'd need these things. I have magazine bodies that never worked too, for the same reason. This is just a collection of followers of various types, with a few Ranger Plates in there too.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/46c69fdb.jpg
This is what I really wanted to show you guys. Even with one follower vs. another, all magazines are not created equal. The magazine on the left functions 100% while the magazine on the right has intermittent partial failures to feed, typically on odd numbered rounds. You'll notice a very subtle difference between the top of the frontstap and it's distance from the front of the feedlips, as evidenced by the amount of follower you can see. Once you've had something like this happen, you know what to look for, but when you're on the range and all of your magazines look like the ones on the right, it's really hard to figure out what the problem might be.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/e62b7645.jpg
If people find this topic interesting I'll keep coming back and updating with other things I discover as I make this switch. If not I'll let it die down.
Hopefully we can avoid a big "GI vs. Pmag" internut battle. This process is not at all about "Pmags suck" or anything of the sort. It is simply a personal preference issue and for me it is worth the extra time and cost to get the magazines the way I prefer them.
Crow Hunter
05-15-11, 11:53
I am interested, I have been doing the same thing. I like the GI mags better for various reasons.
I did do something different though. I sold my pre-ban mags to guys in ban states for the price of replacement NHMTG mags. I remember what it used to be like scrounging for pre-ban mags.
I haven't done any of the upgrades that you have with Range plates or Magpul followers and I would be interested in your journey.
Thanks again.
mkmckinley
05-15-11, 11:54
As someone with a lot of experience with black, green, and Magpul followers can you tell a difference in functionality between followers? Also what kind of springs are you running?
From the time I was in the Army back in the 80's until now I have never had a problem with GI mags and have never felt the need to change to a different mag. Plus when you find them for about 5 bucks a piece sometimes, you can't go wrong.
I have a wide assortment of 20's and 30's. I have no plastic mags.
re: followers-
I can tell you that during the ban I got some magazines that would not run with the black followers, but did when I installed green. I also had some that would not even run with the green. When the Magpul followers started coming online I pulled out some of those non-running magazines and the Magpul followers made working magazines out of them. We're talking a very small number here, maybe 5 total ever, but the fact that a simple follower change could take me from a non-working magazine to a working magazine was of interest, and it's why even now I'll be installing Magpul followers in the magazines. My thinking is that at some point the magazine may reach that point where it wouldn't function with the green follower, and by having the Magpul in it I may extend the service life.
(the above experiences excludes bodies that were so dented that the reason it didn't function was that the follower could not physically travel the length of the mag body)
re: springs-
I'm still trying to figure this one out a bit. I do know that "back in the day" I got a lot of magazines with rusted springs. Part of my rebuild was to install new springs and IIRC one type rusted less than another so ultimately that's what I went with. I would wipe the new spring end-to-end with CLP (that's all I had at the time) and install it.
I was never much into the spring thing beyond this. Having a correct-length spring and a Magpul follower always seemed to matter more than what the spring was made out of, at least in terms of performance. I think the rust issue was more about material, and so that's what I remember focusing on.
I did do something different though. I sold my pre-ban mags to guys in ban states for the price of replacement NHMTG mags. I remember what it used to be like scrounging for pre-ban mags.
I have thought about doing this in the past, even for a profit, but until today I was unsure where these magazines were. I may follow your lead though if someone needs them.
I'll also have to check the date codes. I suspect some of these may have fallen into the "not pre-ban but still GI used" category due to the way I came by most of them working at the shop. The owners would often turn down magazines dated after the ban because there wasn't much we could do with them in that environment.
My next purchase will be a ten pack of aluminum 30 round mags with may pull followers. I've been eying them from a few distributors for around $85.
I've never used the ranger plates but have used the original magpul bottoms.
What is it you like about the ranger base plates? They look more compact than the old school pulls.
Over the years I've replaced all of my green and black followers with magpul followers. A few here and there when I place an order.
If you guys are looking to get rid of your Pmags, if they are in good shape, let me know.
This sounds good. How about adding up a tally of how many Labelle, Adventureline, Parsons, Colt and Center Industries mags you have in the mix?? I have one or 2 marked Adventureline, one Center Ind, a battered yet functional Parsons and maybe one Labelle.
I think it was here where I discussed this topic in a thread. Almost a year ago now I made the switch back to USGI mags as my primary mags. I still have a lot of PMAGS but I also do the USGI mags w/magpul follower and Magpul USGI Ranger Plates. I like the Ranger Plates and the follower is just added insurance. Like you mention the set up is not economical but it is my preference.
The following might be considered nit picking and for many shooters, they may never even realize these quirks that started to bother me. For myself, I really did not like the way in which the PMAGS pulled from any of my various types of mag pouches, just not a slick feeling pull. I also did not like the way in which they dropped from the weapon. I am not a big "flick it" or "snatch it" out of the weapon type. Again these are minor things to many but for myself it was enough to move back to USGI's. I am supplied with Colt USGI's and that is what I primarily use.
All of my armor and working rigs carry USGI's.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Tactical/armor06.jpg
Lucky #7 is the mag that goes in the weapon first. ;)
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/DSC_00301.jpg
My next purchase will be a ten pack of aluminum 30 round mags with may pull followers. I've been eying them from a few distributors for around $85.
Just pay careful attention to my third pic. That problem magazine is an allegedly "GI contract" magazine, from a very reputable supplier, who in fairness agreed to take them all back and replace them, which I didn't do because I don't have the OEM floorplates and followers for them. But I'm only buying NHMTG GI mags myself right now.
I've never used the ranger plates but have used the original magpul bottoms.
What is it you like about the ranger base plates? They look more compact than the old school pulls.
It's a variety of things. First is that I have not discovered a single downside other than the cost. The still fit in all the same pouches and cans I have, still function the same, etc. I'm a monopod-er with the magazines and the Rangers give me more traction for that on concrete and equal traction on soft surfaces. They give me something to hang the mags on if needed, and make it easier to get magazines out of places they may be stuck, from ammo cans, to pouches, to magwells.
This sounds good. How about adding up a tally of how many Labelle, Adventureline, Parsons, Colt and Center Industries mags you have in the mix?? I have one or 2 marked Adventureline, one Center Ind, a battered yet functional Parsons and maybe one Labelle.
It may be interesting. I already jammed the pre-ban box back in the closet though, so it's unlikely to happen anytime soon. I'm going to focus instead on getting the new magazines sorted, parts changed out, numbering them, and getting them into service/rotation, and boxing up everything else.
US Grunt Gear made me the 10 mag purse (http://www.usgruntgear.com/ar10magpubag.html) and I just had him make me a second. My goal is to have enough magazines spec'd to my liking and all function-checked to fill both purses as well as an ammo can I keep with a total of 24 magazines: 20 loaded with XM193 and 4 loaded with BH 77 grain, not to mention a few loose that live in chest rigs, belts, and other locations. So ultimately I'm going to need ~50 new magazines to replace the rotation I currently have in plastic mags. I'm halfway there now on the new NHMTGs.
Something else I'll be looking at is a better way of marking my GI mags. In digging out a lot of these old ones I see where I marked them with Sharpie and while still visible many are very faded. The Sharpie works ok on Pmags because the ribs reduce the amount of rubbing on the writing, but the GI mags rub together a lot more and wear off the marker.
I don't want to get into stickers as I think that's a whole 'nother thing to get bound up.
Anyone with suggestions on this, I'm all ears. It does not have to be pretty by any means, it just has to be durable and visible.
I like the bag, thanks for the link. I have been to their website and their belts look very nice too. The bag would be nice for a grab and go, bug out situation.
Something else I'll be looking at is a better way of marking my GI mags. In digging out a lot of these old ones I see where I marked them with Sharpie and while still visible many are very faded. The Sharpie works ok on Pmags because the ribs reduce the amount of rubbing on the writing, but the GI mags rub together a lot more and wear off the marker.
I don't want to get into stickers as I think that's a whole 'nother thing to get bound up.
Anyone with suggestions on this, I'm all ears. It does not have to be pretty by any means, it just has to be durable and visible.
Not a suggestion but I have used small pieces of masking tape with the round type and count marked on them. Good for the range, maybe not so good for classes or competition.
Crow Hunter
05-15-11, 12:59
I'm halfway there now on the new NHMTGs.
You may already know but, 44Mag sells NHMTG mags with Magpul followers installed for $12.99.
He is a great guy to work with.
Oh, and paint pens might be more durable than Sharpie. We used to use the paint pens to mark brake rotors as having been successfully tested and they would survive shipping on VCI paper/cardboard pallets on trucks to assembly plants. I haven't tried them on mags though. The dry film coating coming off would probably take the paint with it. Maybe you could sand that down to the annodizing for your numbering? Shouldn't hurt the mags.
Facejackets
05-15-11, 13:05
Something else I'll be looking at is a better way of marking my GI mags. In digging out a lot of these old ones I see where I marked them with Sharpie and while still visible many are very faded. The Sharpie works ok on Pmags because the ribs reduce the amount of rubbing on the writing, but the GI mags rub together a lot more and wear off the marker.
I don't want to get into stickers as I think that's a whole 'nother thing to get bound up.
Anyone with suggestions on this, I'm all ears. It does not have to be pretty by any means, it just has to be durable and visible.
I know you aren't fond of anything sticky, but a good friend of mine has a strip of bright Orange tape on the bottom of his mags.
This isn't the best of pics, but you get the point.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/MrMetalHFFK/Shooting%20Events/P1020537.jpg
He hasn't complained to me about the tape melting away yet, even in 110 degree heat
Edit- don't mind the huge Orange duct tape on the AR and a few mags. That's a 5.45 gun, and after someone tried shooting .223 from it, he needed to identify the gun so people wouldn't try it again.
devilsdeeds
05-15-11, 13:11
Anyone with suggestions on this, I'm all ears. It does not have to be pretty by any means, it just has to be durable and visible.
How about an engraving pen on the body or soldering iron on the ranger plates.
Without a doubt engraving pens would be the most durable, and permanent. Most guys don't want permanent, in case they want to eventually sell the mags, or change the numbering system.
Paint pens work well. You will have some of the marking go away, via chipping or wearing down, but with all I have seen I could still make out the number written. Paint also isn't permanent.
I should mention what I've tried in the past re: marking.
First was individual pieces of masking tape, which generally got peeled off and lost and/or stuck in a place where it caused problems.
I went from there to wrapping the masking tape around the magazine body, and some of the mags from my first pic above still have that tape on it. The primary issue with this, besides masking tape drying out and cracking off, was the corners of the magazine collecting dirt and other crap behind the tape, which inevitably wound up falling out/off when I got home, decreasing my domestic bliss. ;)
Then I used electrical tape in various colors. No drying issues but various markers didn't write on it as well and it still had the corner debris issue.
All of the above were an attempt not to have to mark directly on the body in order to preserve resale.
Once I realized the magazines weren't going anywhere, I started writing directly on them. First with standard Sharpies and then with Sharpie paint pens. The paint pens do appear to work better.
The electric engraving thing sounds promising, but I've never been able to write legibly with one. I'm also not sure how visible it would be.
I may just go back with the paint pens and deal with re-marking them as needed. The silver Sharpie paint pens have actually held up really well on my Glock magazines.
Paint with stencils? In my mags above I incorporate numbers within the camo. Most people can't see the numbering until I point it out, but that is just how I number mine. You could do the same without the camo and perhaps use whatever size numbers you want. It lasts pretty well. You could perhaps stencil small numbering near the base?
You may already know but, 44Mag sells NHMTG mags with Magpul followers installed for $12.99.
Yep, but I already stocked up on a large quantity of yellow Magpul followers.
For something a bit more permanent, I have seen guys do a shallow engraving of the baseplate or the spine of the mag.
While we're at it, I'm going to need to source more Range Plates than I currently have. I like to use the plates themselves to indicate the ammo that they contain within. This is a system I've been using for a long time that I'd like to expand on.
With the good guy pricing the Ranger Plates are $5.64/ea+ shipping from Brownells or $6.32 shipped from 44mag.com, and my guess is that's going to work out to about the same thing either way. I'm in the market for ~20 OD Green.
My first two deployments to Iraq, I used regular GI magazines with black and green followers. I didn't know the difference then, but the magazines worked fine for the most part. The highest volume of rounds fired was in pre-deployment training for my second deployment and CQB training during, probably about 5000 rounds over a few months. I experienced a few bolt-over-base malfunctions, more than I would have liked.
Preparing to deploy this year I was a lot more knowledgeable about ARs and magazines, mostly from personal ownership and research. I am currently in Afghanistan and all of the magazines on my kit are USGI with Magpul followers. I cleaned and inspected all of my magazines while replacing the followers and gauged the feed lips, throwing away ones out of spec. I also numbered my magazines this time intending to track malfunctions, but so far I haven't had a single magazine-related one. I also have a couple Pmags which I use on the range for comparison, as well as a USGI magazine with the new tan follower that I found. So far the USGI with Magpul follower, USGI as-issued with tan follower, and Pmag are all running with 100% reliability.
I like Pmags, but USGI with Magpul or tan followers are serving with great success as well. They should not be discounted.
edmorseiii
05-15-11, 14:18
Definitely interested in this thread. I live in a ban state, and have a box of pre bans. I get mag envy some times of you guys in free America. :mad:
Next step is to pull the floorplates from the mags in the middle (these are the batch with the high frontstap from the first post) and install them and the yellow followers on the right into the virgin NHMTG mags on the left.
I also found four OD Ranger plates I will install as well. I forgot the Ranger plates were two-piece though so I still need to dig up the inner parts.
Going to get these set up tonight over a cigar hopefully.
Rob, I sent you an email about ranger plates.
El Pistolero
05-15-11, 14:47
What an interesting subject. A guy I work with says plastic mags are for girls, maybe he's right. Still, I love my Lancers L5 and I'm looking forward to getting the new AWM from Lancer. But my favorite magazines have always been my 30-round USGI magazines I rebuilt.
I picked up about a two dozen USGI mags from a gunshow, out of a box with hundreds of magazines I took the ones with the best bodies. All were OKay Industries, with a couple of Colt bodies mixed in (still made by Okay). I added yellow MagPul followers and MagPul L-plates and new springs. I don't know what it is about the USGI mags but they just seem "right." I like the bright yellow follower for doing a quick visual check through the ejection port when out of ammo, and the L-plates are a nice touch compared to the usual USGI floorplates and I didn't need the loops offered by the ranger plates.
My only gripe is that with the L-plates I can't lock a 30-round-loaded mag on a closed bolt. If I swap out the MagPul follower for a green USGI, or I swap out the L-plate for the standard USGI floorplate, I can lock the mag in with 30 rounds, but with the MagPul follower/L-plate combination I can't. I don't like loading my mags to only 28 or 29 rounds so I refuse to do that. I don't feel it's necessary to tamper with the followers to get it to work because in practice I always insert the mag on an open bolt so it's a non-issue for me. Just something to take note of (I don't see people run the L-plates often anyways).
I don't want to turn the discussion down that path but I load Pmags and GI to 28 anyway so the capacity thing has never been an incentive or disincentive either way for me.
El Pistolero
05-15-11, 15:42
I think the magazine should be able to be loaded to the full advertised capacity of 30 rounds AND lock in on a closed bolt IAW proper design. I think MagPuls and Lancers were designed with more slack in them when they are fully loaded to allow for easier seating against a closed bolt, and many have reported loading 31 rounds into a PMag. Others choose to deliberately download the mag by 1 or 2 rounds to make things easier or avoid the issue all together. But that can be a whole other discussion and thread by itself.
Marking mags... I use an engraver. Mags are numbered beginning with an in-service year, followed by mag number. Exp: 11-01, 11-02, etc. If high vis is needed, I'll paint pen over the top.
Capacity... 28rds, all mags, all the time. There are no mags currently available that should be expected to seat under a closed bolt with 30rds reliably across their type. There are examples that will, but better safe than sorry. 30rds might seat, 28rds will seat.
Anyone tried these mags?
http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/MA-02DSGG10.aspx
Anyone tried these mags?
http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/MA-02DSGG10.aspx
I have and have had no issues. I always buy my mags in sets of 12 and use them for 2-3 years and then either store them or sale them and start over. I bought a 10 pack and 2 loose and have been using them quite a bit lately. I'm not convinced that I need to switch over completely from P-Mags or Tango Downs but like using them as well. I have either been lucky or ignorant but haven't really had a bad mag experience as far as the different aluminum mag manufacturers.
Marking mags... I use an engraver. Mags are numbered beginning with an in-service year, followed by mag number. Exp: 11-01, 11-02, etc. If high vis is needed, I'll paint pen over the top.
Me being all technological and stuff, and into charts, :jester: I am starting a Google doc to track the magazines by number with purchase date, service, etc. It sounds exponentially more complicated than it is. And with the iPhone I can access from anywhere to update if I need to.
I have been buying mostly PMags for the last few years but have plenty of metal mags. There is part of me that just likes a metal magazine.
EzGoingKev
05-15-11, 18:03
Yep, but I already stocked up on a large quantity of yellow Magpul followers.
I have been going with the yellows as of late also.
Since we have a few Magpul employees on here we should see if we could put together a group buy.
I always insert the mag on an open bolt so it's a non-issue for me.
What if you go to do a tactical reload?
mkmckinley
05-15-11, 18:59
I have been buying mostly PMags for the last few years but have plenty of metal mags. There is part of me that just likes a metal magazine.
I'm the same way but recently I've been looking for ways to cut down on the weight of my kit. It seems counterintuitive but the Pmags are actually a little heavier, 1.4 oz, than USGI:
http://www.magpul.com/pdfs/PMAGPress.pdf
If I'm carrying a basic load that's like 10 ounces right there. Assuming your USGIs are reliable, which in most cases they are, that's an advantage to using USGIs.
I remember the days of the ban. In my case I bought 7-8 mags early on. I didn't have any issues with these mags. I did have issues with mags for other guns, but that is for other forums.
Directly after the ban I went out and bought lets just say MORE GI mags.
I had issue with brand new mags in one AR when using Wolf ammo. As I t turns out the mag spring appears to be too strong, but once the mags is used a couple times it is no issue.
So I numbered my mags with a paint pen and if a mag is bad it gets a red pen mark. If a mag is good when tested it gets the blue mag mark.
I do like the ranger plates.
I never saw the need to buy magpul followers.
I will someday get some PMAGS, but that is to separate hand loads from, M855, from other loads.
You may already know but, 44Mag sells NHMTG mags with Magpul followers installed for $12.99.
ALL NHMTG magazines have Magpul followers. That is the only way you can get them from Ronan.
El Pistolero
05-15-11, 19:55
What if you go to do a tactical reload?
Good point, I didn't think of that.
ALL NHMTG magazines have Magpul followers. That is the only way you can get them from Ronan.
44mag.com has NHMTG with green followers. I just bought 30 of them and will be buying at least another 20. Are they just old stock or something?
Interesting thread.. the majority of my mags are the USGI. I always had good service with them and treated them like the expendable item they are... I bought some PMAGS and Lancers for free over the years...
I'm not the kind of guy who rushes out and replaces anything until it has been proven ...I just slowly, over time, swapped out all the followers to Magpul and have the old school Magpuls on them... I use a stencil kit and make large .Mil type numbers and spraypaint numbers on both sides of each magazine... last's for years, and no sticky goo or touching up with a paint pen.
The Pmags kind of took hold on me by accident. I resisted them at first, then caved when the orange ones came out, and next thing you know I had 50-something of them. A handful for the spraypaint test, a handful for the deet test, 2-3 a year in Pats class for the las 5 years... I still think that first 11 orange may have been the only ones nactually bought!
Rob - good topic. Living in a ban state I have historically run 30rd pre-ban USGI mags. Some were purchased through some top-shelfers here on M4C. I will throw it out there that any of you investing in new USGI, Pmags, etc., please do consider offering up your pre-bans to those behind enemy lines - they are a valued resource here. PM/email me if you need an outlet. I find homes for your unwanted mags at zero profit to myself...
I replaced all the followers in my mags with obligatory green followers and have not replaced them since, (many thousands of rounds). I have two exceptions to that rule. Two Colt marked mags that I bought NIW back in the mid 90's. These mags have been 100% for well over a decade. Is there anomalies in the black-follower bunch? The other is a crazily used Israeli Orlite mag which just will not fail.
USGI springs should not rust. The two most popular springs seem to be USGI and CS. My choice would be USGI.
Thanks for posting this Rob, interesting thread. Been finding myself migrating back to USGI magazines for many of the reasons mentioned.
Rob - good topic. Living in a ban state I have historically run 30rd pre-ban USGI mags. Some were purchased through some top-shelfers here on M4C. I will throw it out there that any of you investing in new USGI, Pmags, etc., please do consider offering up your pre-bans to those behind enemy lines - they are a valued resource here. PM/email me if you need an outlet. I find homes for your unwanted mags at zero profit to myself...
I'll try to dig mine back out of the closet tomorrow and see what I have.
What's the going rate?
wetidlerjr
05-15-11, 21:49
I have been using Pmags recently but I have no intention of giving up any of my metal AR mags. Almost all have the green follower but three have the Magpul.
I'll try to dig mine back out of the closet tomorrow and see what I have.
What's the going rate?
Thanks Rob. I was finding them here and elsewhere for $15-20.00 based on condition. Probably the best deal I got here at M4c was $12.00 for used, but in my opinion, excellent magazines. I suspect the member was being just a truly good egg. The Okay's were way beyond okay and I was reminded of them today as I wiped the rain off them...
ETA: When I was thick into the mag placement mission, I suggested to sellers to package them in lots, (2, 4, 6, 8 or more), to avoid dealing with loads of shipping single mags...
I never got rid of my USGI prebans after the ban died.
I need them if I have to travel to a ban state someday.
I also agree with pretty much everything in this thread.
I prefer the way USGI magazines pull and insert into mag pouches and how they drop free from a gun over all other styles of magazines. All have USGI springs.
The 28 round download is not a big deal compared to giving up the way USGI magazines interact with pouches and the lower receiver.
USGI springs should not rust. The two most popular springs seem to be USGI and CS. My choice would be USGI.
============================
I have only used USGI's. A few years ago, when I was starting to hoard mags, I figured they would be a commodity in a SHTF scenario, so I wanted mags that worked in every gun … tight magwell or not.
I put yellow Magpul Followers in all my mags. I use yellow because it is easy to see when the mag is mt, everyone else seemed to use "tactical" colors (until I read this thread), so yellow would be easy to ID the mag laying on the ground plus I got the yellows cheap.
I only have mags made by Okay (Okay, Colt & NHMTG) and a bunch of used Center mags I bought last year. I treat my CS springs like Rob, except I use EeZox.
All of the used USGI's I have seen have CS springs.
I just went and checked a few of my NIW Colt stamped 30-rounders marked 2008 and they all have CS springs.
All of the new NHMTG's, I bought a year ago, have CS springs.
I don't know when USGI went to SS springs but it must have been recent or there is a lot of CS mags in the pipeline??
.
.
Question on ID'ing Pre-Bans:
I was told that if a magazine shell does not have a date stamped on it, it is a pre-ban mag. Is this how you ID pre-bans?
I wouldn't have a problem selling my pre-bans to help my oppressed fellow American's out but I just want to be sure...?
Thanks.
.
I never stopped running USGI's. I have many Lancers and looking to pick up more AWM's but 90%+ of my mags are USGI's.
The AWB ended 7 years ago. If you have a bad magazine, crush it and move on (I tend to throw my downrange and shoot them). Maybe scavenge your follower if you're running a Magpul or an aftermarket baseplate. Unless you live in a ban state, you should have enough magazines that crushing shitty ones (instead of trying to re-form feed lips and change out springs and and and and) that it doesn't matter if you destroy a couple.
For those that lived through the AWB and haven't stocked up in the last 7 years; shame on you. The only real reason to keep a bad magazine is to mark it for malfunction drills.
Magazines (all detachable magazines) are consumables and should be treated as such. Maybe it's just me but when you can find NIW USGI mags for $8 a pop it simply isn't worth it to take the money and effort to try and fix a questionable mag.
In regards to marking, a paint pen works well, as does a carbide etcher.
I really like the yellow Magpul followers in our GI mags, it was surprising how much they brighten up the inside of the chamber when doing a a chamber check. We've added L-Plates or Ranger plates to them all too.
urbankaos04
05-15-11, 23:20
I live in a ban state and would like to know which current mags have NO markings, as I can buy said mags disassembled and use them as REPLACEMENT mags in order to fix damaged or non-working old mags that were in my possession before the ban. This is completely LEGAL and has been covered extensively, so no worries.
Second, what are the differences between the different colored Magpul followers? Are there design differences? Or is it just to have pretty followers? (Ah, just saw the post above me.)
Third, where can one find USGI springs? I have several old GI mags that need new springs. (I see that Brownells sells SS and CS springs. Are these good to go?)
Thanks.
I never stopped running USGI's. I have many Lancers and looking to pick up more AWM's but 90%+ of my mags are USGI's.
The AWB ended 7 years ago. If you have a bad magazine, crush it and move on (I tend to throw my downrange and shoot them). Maybe scavenge your follower if you're running a Magpul or an aftermarket baseplate. Unless you live in a ban state, you should have enough magazines that crushing shitty ones (instead of trying to re-form feed lips and change out springs and and and and) that it doesn't matter if you destroy a couple.
For those that lived through the AWB and haven't stocked up in the last 7 years; shame on you. The only real reason to keep a bad magazine is to mark it for malfunction drills.
Magazines (all detachable magazines) are consumables and should be treated as such. Maybe it's just me but when you can find NIW USGI mags for $8 a pop it simply isn't worth it to take the money and effort to try and fix a questionable mag.
In regards to marking, a paint pen works well, as does a carbide etcher.
I'll give you a case against destroying your USGI mags - especially pre-bans. They can still be a commodity - at least here in Massachusetts. You see, when the '94' AWB reached sunset, Mitt Romney, (for any of you contemplating voting for him), essentially adopted the Fed AWB and signed it into law in Massachusetts - essentially. What he and the legislature missed was not magazines - but magazine parts. There's nothing in the law that prohibits me from rebuilding my magazines. So, if I possess a bad mag, I can essentially take the steps necessary to repair it. For safety sake, I, (we) retain our failed parts. So, though a hassle, we can use even bad mags. You make a few bucks, we can rebuild them....
I agree on the paint pens. I marked all my mags with them and through rain, snow, sleet and heat - they remain marked...
I ran HK mags in Afghanistan. I bought PMAGs when I got back because I was tired of the weight of the HK's. Now, I'm running the issued mags with the tan followers.
If only I'd known what I know now when I was a Private...
mkmckinley
05-16-11, 01:12
I ran HK mags in Afghanistan. I bought PMAGs when I got back because I was tired of the weight of the HK's. Now, I'm running the issued mags with the tan followers.
If only I'd known what I know now when I was a Private...
Those HK mags are the worst I've used in an AR. They have gotten a well-deserved shitty reputation in the last few years. When I first got to my unit they had a bunch of them and I was led to believe they were the bees knees. It says HK on them, right? Well I had more mag related stoppages than I knew what to do with.
Those HK mags are the worst I've used in an AR. They have gotten a well-deserved shitty reputation in the last few years. When I first got to my unit they had a bunch of them and I was led to believe they were the bees knees. It says HK on them, right? Well I had more mag related stoppages than I knew what to do with.
My biggest issues were with the feed lips and the follower spring. Out of my 14 issued HK mags, 9 of them have bent feed lips. Given I don't abuse my mags (and I don't jam the feed lips on tables/walls when I use speed loaders...) that's unacceptable.
My follower springs have started to develop a stutter between the 12th and 15th rounds. I've taken the spring out and the coating is still on the spring, but they're starting to wear out and I'm having a lot of feeding issues running them in my SR-15 and 416.
They worked flawlessly in Afghanistan, and thankfully I'm back home when I started to have issues. But after only one year of non-cool guy use and they're ****ing up...that's ridiculous.
My new CO is pushing for our Supply SGT to issue PMAGs now. We're still buying/issuing the HK mags, but within a few more months we should have the superior alternative being issued.
I love my HK416 upper. I don't love the HK SA80 mags. This is one of those "if it ain't broke" moments...
And I have a colorful story from a friend of mine in 1/75 who slammed into the prone with an HK mag, went to bring his rifle up to fire, and the entire floor plate cracked and broke off the bottom of the mag and all his rounds dumped out.
I've broken Ranger Plates doing that, but never broken the bottom of a mag off.
Something else I'll be looking at is a better way of marking my GI mags. In digging out a lot of these old ones I see where I marked them with Sharpie and while still visible many are very faded. The Sharpie works ok on Pmags because the ribs reduce the amount of rubbing on the writing, but the GI mags rub together a lot more and wear off the marker.
I don't want to get into stickers as I think that's a whole 'nother thing to get bound up.
Anyone with suggestions on this, I'm all ears. It does not have to be pretty by any means, it just has to be durable and visible.
Here's one idea :D
http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/mediac/400_0/media/DIR_92821/Rustoleum$20mags.jpg
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=45553
There is also this-
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/4296578487_b124df1f35_b.jpg
Magic_Salad0892
05-16-11, 02:33
I'm currently using D&H/Colt(OKAY) USGI magazines, some have KAC White followers I got from friends, dudes online, and I think some might have come with my SR-15s, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Wasn't something I really paid attention to until today. Others have Magpul yellow followers (which were given to my by my Mom, sweet isn't she?).
I have a few ways of marking magazines and what they're filled with.
I'd like to get 30 mags willed with M855, and 30 filled with BH Mk. 262. I currently have: (and how they're marked)
D&H Mags (Yellow Magpul Follower)
These magazines are filled with M855 (Lake City 62 gr. FMJ), and are marked by follower, and I have a homosexual man my girlfriend works with engrave - which he does very well, and I don't own an engraving tool (in about THIS SIZE ''M855 - 30 RDS.'' this is then filled in with RED paint pen. Right now I have about 23 magazines (I just counted) set up this way. They are black, not painted in any way, and easily readable. The engraving work looks good.
Colt (OKAY) (White Knights Armament Follower)
These magazines are loaded with BH Mk. 262 (I hated it when that crap was restricted) , and are marked in about THIS SIZE ''MK 262 - 30 RDS.'' and are filled in with GREEN paint pen. I think it glows in that dark, but I'm not sure. Once again, they are black/greyish, and not painted/camouflaged in any way. Very readable, and apparently very permanent.
Currently I have 13 magazines set up this way. I don't have any real reason not to use the other Magpul followers I have, I'm just a Knights whore. And they've run 100% for me.
Magpul magazines get loaded with whatever else I have, and don't really get marked. I use use them until they die. Those are the training/beater magazines, and I don't care about them. USGI magazine springs used in magazines mentioned above, BTW.
I color code, and have them engraved, followers also conform to code. If you want to engrave, or get good at doing it legibly I was told to practice on shovels, and engraving your initials on watches.
I bought the paint pens from a Wal-Mart.
You guys just reminded me I gotta number my magazines, I for some reason never thought of that. Herp-da-derp.
USGI mags use USGI springs. Consumer mags tend to use CS springs, mostly due to ignorance of consumers.
Stainless wire is about 2.7x more expensive. Marketing people are laughing at what they have pulled off.
The AWB ended 7 years ago. If you have a bad magazine, crush it and move on (I tend to throw my downrange and shoot them). Maybe scavenge your follower if you're running a Magpul or an aftermarket baseplate. Unless you live in a ban state, you should have enough magazines that crushing shitty ones (instead of trying to re-form feed lips and change out springs and and and and) that it doesn't matter if you destroy a couple.
For those that lived through the AWB and haven't stocked up in the last 7 years; shame on you. The only real reason to keep a bad magazine is to mark it for malfunction drills.
Magazines (all detachable magazines) are consumables and should be treated as such. Maybe it's just me but when you can find NIW USGI mags for $8 a pop it simply isn't worth it to take the money and effort to try and fix a questionable mag.
Is there a place in this thread where anyone, outside of ban states, has suggested anything counter to any of the above?
Magic_Salad0892
05-16-11, 05:43
Magazines are $8?
Cheaper than gun magazines.
Magazines are $8?
I wasn't going to go there, but you have a point.
There have been a few references throughout this thread to magazines for pretty low prices. It would be helpful to others reading this if those that are quoting these prices could also post links to where they are getting these prices.
I'm paying $10.99/ea for NHMTG with green followers from 44mag.com (http://www.44mag.com/product/nhmtg_30_usgi_ar15_magazine/nhmtg). If there's a place to get USGI magazines for cheaper I'd love to know about it. Especially $3/mag cheaper as that price differential goes a long way towards paying for the Ranger Plates.
nolacopusmc
05-16-11, 06:20
Marking mags... I use an engraver. Mags are numbered beginning with an in-service year, followed by mag number. Exp: 11-01, 11-02, etc. If high vis is needed, I'll paint pen over the top.
Capacity... 28rds, all mags, all the time. There are no mags currently available that should be expected to seat under a closed bolt with 30rds reliably across their type. There are examples that will, but better safe than sorry. 30rds might seat, 28rds will seat.
I really like that idea-- using an inservice date. Thanks
ffhounddog
05-16-11, 07:45
Intresting thread and I agree and not all mags are made a like.
I have some CProducts mags left (I know) but these have never failed me and got these before that big sale they had a few years back. After that sale I got a few mags and the feed lips were not made correctly and the "magpul" followers they had were not magpul like they were before.
I was buying before the 2008 election 10 packs of D&H mags for 70 bucks shipped when people were trying to get PMAGs I was still buying well USGI.
i have a 20mm ammo can loaded with USGI mags with Q3131 loaded in each to 28 rounds. That is my oh f**k the SE side of DC is comming into VA box.
Whiskey_Bravo
05-16-11, 08:07
Magazines are $8?
Not $8, but close. D&H mags with Magpul Enhanced followers.
$9.99
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-Magazines-p/magazines%20dh%20bt30mf.htm
$8.99 w/o the magpul follower.
8.50 when buying 10. Not exactly USGI, but Magpul followers are included. I have never had an issue with DSG magazines in any gun.
http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/MA-02DSGG10.aspx
Did more digging on the magazine that appears to the right in my third picture. I'm now pretty sure that the brand/source I thought these were is not accurate. In fact, I'd say I'm 99.9% certain.
Which now leads me to two unfortunate conclusions:
These are the dreaded Crap-Products (now evidently re-branded as some new endeavor)
It means I'm missing something on the order of 32 magazines that are likely good! I have 8 magazines in my bunch with date stamps and CAGE codes on them, and they do not exhibit the same high front-strap as the Crap-Products magazines. The problem is that I bought a total of 40 of these (twenty in each of two group buys), leaving a missing 32!
:jester:
ETA:
The good news is also two-fold:
If I can find those missing 32 I'll have quite the collection of quality USGI magazines to keep as backup to my current NHMTG project.
I am now more resolved than ever to avoid suspect magazines of any flavor.
USGI springs should not rust. The two most popular springs seem to be USGI and CS. My choice would be USGI.
I pulled apart a bunch of magazines last night. I found that, despite all of them having been stored together, loaded, for quite some time, I had two distinct spring types: those with rust and those without.
I wonder, since I know you've done a lot of spring research, if you could elaborate on the above. What are USGI springs made of? What are the springs that tend to rust made of?
and, I wonder your thoughts re: the price of stainless springs when you look at something like the DSG magazines linked to above which have a $2 follower and a more expensive spring but sell for a very low price.
Along the theme of journalizing this process....
Last night I started with this...
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/8d0812af.jpg
and ended up with this (Ranger Plates are in another bin out of frame)...
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/04676155.jpg
I found the carbon scraper on the Multitasker Ultralight (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=77084/pid=40883/Product/Ultralight_Multitasker_Tool?utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=googlebase&mc_id=10000&gdftrk=gdfV21820_a_7c187_a_7c745_a_7c080000791_d_080100671_d_11290) to be very useful in removing the Ranger Plates. Push down on the tab at the rear, the insert the tool in the loop and press down on the retaining plate through the hole in the rubber, and slide the Ranger Plate off. I was able to use the tool to push on any stuck retaining plates to get them to come loose, as well as use it to hook around the spring loop and pull the spring free from the follower. The scraper is a tool I would never use for it's intended purpose but it worked out really well for me in this application.
Not $8, but close. D&H mags with Magpul Enhanced followers.
$9.99
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-Magazines-p/magazines%20dh%20bt30mf.htm
$8.99 w/o the magpul follower.
Those aren't USGI magazines.
Army Chief
05-16-11, 09:53
So, for the record, we're now making a clear distinction quality-wise between NHMTG and the likes of D&H? I've only ever really known USGI magazines, but was of the impression that D&H/LaBelle conformed to the same basic standard. Granted, it's become a crowded playing field, and some of the outliers (like Brownells for instance) have made it difficult to see the forest for the trees.
The lowest price I've seen lately on NHMTGs is $10. Still have no idea who the preferred source for these might be.
AC
Doc Safari
05-16-11, 09:55
Originally Posted by Whiskey_Bravo
Not $8, but close. D&H mags with Magpul Enhanced followers.
$9.99
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15...h%20bt30mf.htm
$8.99 w/o the magpul follower.
Those aren't USGI magazines.
Are they GTG, though? Those magazines are what ship with BCM rifles, and I've yet to have a problem with one, but what are the reasons the NHMTG mags are better?
wetidlerjr
05-16-11, 10:05
Originally Posted by Whiskey_Bravo
Not $8, but close. D&H mags with Magpul Enhanced followers.
$9.99
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15...h%20bt30mf.htm
$8.99 w/o the magpul follower.
Originally Posted by scottryan
Those aren't USGI magazines.
Are they GTG, though? Those magazines are what ship with BCM rifles, and I've yet to have a problem with one, but what are the reasons the NHMTG mags are better?
From the BCM page: "These GI mags stamped with the date of manufacturer on left side of magazine body and the contractors government CAGE code (04TQ4 - D&H Industries) on right side of magazine body."
Is there a place in this thread where anyone, outside of ban states, has suggested anything counter to any of the above?
Perhaps I'm not seeing the point?
Color me simple but I have a pretty easy inspection process. Check for cracks/weld separation on the spine. Check feed lips. If it doesn't pass those tests, I mark them and throw them in the, 'training' pile. Once they double-feed, I toss them.
To check feed lips without a gauge I do the following:
Every in-spec magazine should easily drop-free from a in-spec lower both when loaded and unloaded. Bearing this in mind,
-insert empty magazine, release it. If it doesn't drop free, it can be indicative of feed-lip spreading (the added friction of spread feed lips retards the movement).
-Do the same with the magazine loaded.
-If it passes both of those tests, hold the loaded magazine in your hand and smack the bottom. If rounds pop out, it fails.
Most of the time a mag will fail those tests before it starts to double-feed on you.
Rob, what brand of mags are the springs rusting on? I've never experienced that, even after years on the Carolina coast.
A good and useful thread here, Rob.
Perhaps I'm not seeing the point?
I guess I wasn't either. Your post sounded like an admonishment to those that posted before you, and it seemed to me you were admonishing people for doing things that they weren't doing. Discussions about salvaging this and that were limited to people that were active during the ban, or people that are living in ban states. You mentioned shit-canning bad mags and nobody was saying to do otherwise in the absence of a ban.
Rob, what brand of mags are the springs rusting on? I've never experienced that, even after years on the Carolina coast.
I'm 99.9% certain now that the mags I took apart last night to find rusted springs are from my old nemesis, Crap-Products. C-Products was either bought by, or changed their name to, or sold their sold to, or whatever ASC (http://www.ammosc.com/). Somewhere along the line I had installed the floorplates and followers from Magpul and as such now have no record of what these POS mags are. They are the same ones with the high front strap in my third picture.
This is a good thread. I find it interesting and relevant to my interests. Thank you, rob_s. Subscribed.
Regarding the D&H magazines with the Magpul Enhanced Followers sold by Bravo Company USA:
Those aren't USGI magazines.
Are they GTG, though? Those magazines are what ship with BCM rifles, and I've yet to have a problem with one, but what are the reasons the NHMTG mags are better?
I'm curious about the NHMTG magazines, as well as how they compare to the D&H magazines ( or vice versa). Regarding the CAGE code on the D&H magazines, I know that just because something has a CAGE code doesn't necessarily mean it is a GI issue/contract item.
Not that I'm going to dump my D&H magazines and buy all NHMTG magazines, or anything like that. I have maybe 20 of the D&H magazines; all of which are fitted with greyish enhanced followers. I have never experience any problems with the magazines, but I will also state that none of them have been driven really hard. I also have a bunch of 30-round PMAGs which have been 100% issue-free, as well. But between the aluminum magazines and the PMAGs, I tend to lean towards using the aluminum ones. I'm not entirely sure why - maybe I just like how they feel; maybe it's because I know there is a slim chance I'll accidentally run them over with my car. It isn't that I don't like the PMAGs. I just like the aluminum magazines more. I wouldn't consider ditching my PMAGs, but if I feel I need more magazines, I'll probably acquire more aluminum w/ enhanced followers.
I also have several curved 20-round aluminum magazines that I have fitted with the Magpul Enhanced Followers (grey). These work spectacularly well for me, and have become my go-to magazines for bench work. No problems loading them to the full 20 rounds, either.
I'm curious about the NHMTG magazines, as well as how they compare to the D&H magazines ( or vice versa). Regarding the CAGE code on the D&H magazines, I know that just because something has a CAGE code doesn't necessarily mean it is a GI issue/contract item.
Not that I'm going to dump my D&H magazines and buy all NHMTG magazines, or anything like that.
Now that I have sorted out what I have from what I thought I had, I'll try to get some comparative shots of both.
USGI mags use USGI springs. Consumer mags tend to use CS springs, mostly due to ignorance of consumers.
Stainless wire is about 2.7x more expensive. Marketing people are laughing at what they have pulled off.
Freakonomics 101...
Are they GTG, though? Those magazines are what ship with BCM rifles, and I've yet to have a problem with one, but what are the reasons the NHMTG mags are better?
They are good to go if you are willing to settle for less. NHMTG magazines are better because they use better components.
Jason Falla
05-16-11, 11:24
I have used pretty much every magazine that is currently on the market and some that are off! The magazines that I took to war on several occasions were GI Colt mags with green followers. So long as you look after your equipment and service/de-service them on a regular basis they will serve you well as they did me.
Today for all of my professional training I still only use Colt GI mags with green followers. The reason now is that they work better than any other magazine on the market. Forget about all the flashy plastic mags and off brand GI mags, THEY WILL ALL FAIL some sooner than others. They will be slower coming out of your mag pouches and slower coming out of your gun. They will crack, hang up on equipment and rounds will always spring loose creating double fed weapons.
Get rid of all of the industry hype and get back to reality, GI mags work!
They are good to go if you are willing to settle for less. NHMTG magazines are better because they use better components.
Can you elaborate on this? Rather than just laying the turd in the punchbowl, how about helping people understand why they should happily bite down on it. :D
I know I'd be curious to know more about this. You've got:
body
spring
follower
floorplate
I'd like to know how D&H and NHMTG differ, and then what makes the differences in the NHMTG better. Especially since I have examples of both.
From the BCM page: "These GI mags stamped with the date of manufacturer on left side of magazine body and the contractors government CAGE code (04TQ4 - D&H Industries) on right side of magazine body."
GI magazines are not teflon coated.
A manufacturer can put their cage code on anything they make. That doesn't make it USGI.
These commercial DH magazines aren't the same as OEM New Haven / Okays / Colt
That is clear just by picking an OEM up and then an DH. The OEM feels much more solid. DH magazines rattle more than OEM and I don't trust them.
Doc Safari
05-16-11, 11:36
These commercial DH magazines aren't the same as OEM New Haven / Okays.
That is clear just by picking an OEM up and then an DH. The OEM feels much more solid.
I'm not saying your post is invalid, but it seems kind of subjective.
I agree with rob_s: what specifically makes the OEM better? Is a stronger spring? Thicker feed lips? What?
That is clear just by picking an OEM up and then an DH. The OEM feels much more solid.
We're not really going to reduce this whole thing down to "feel" are we? I had much higher hopes for this discussion, and given the number of posts in so short a period of time, not to mention many direct questions asked and still unanswered, many people appear to find it interesting.
To boil that down to "because I said so" or to "it feels better" just seems...
:bad:
I have used pretty much every magazine that is currently on the market and some that are off! The magazines that I took to war on several occasions were GI Colt mags with green followers. So long as you look after your equipment and service/de-service them on a regular basis they will serve you well as they did me.
Today for all of my professional training I still only use Colt GI mags with green followers. The reason now is that they work better than any other magazine on the market. Forget about all the flashy plastic mags and off brand GI mags, THEY WILL ALL FAIL some sooner than others. They will be slower coming out of your mag pouches and slower coming out of your gun. They will crack, hang up on equipment and rounds will always spring loose creating double fed weapons.
Get rid of all of the industry hype and get back to reality, GI mags work!
Interesting insight Jason, thanks.
We're not really going to reduce this whole thing down to "feel" are we? I had much higher hopes for this discussion, and given the number of posts in so short a period of time, not to mention many direct questions asked and still unanswered, many people appear to find it interesting.
To boil that down to "because I said so" or to "it feels better" just seems...
:bad:
That is what it is going to boil down to for me because I don't know of a better why to explain it. The D&H mags feel thinner and made out of more flimsy metal. I'm not saying they are or aren't that is just how I perceive them.
Additionally, D&H was caught up in all the chrome silicon scandal so that is enough for me to stay away. They offered their mags with CS springs.
the chrome silicon scandal.
I've missed that episode. Could you elaborate?
The last I looked at springs these were the holy cow ultimate in springs.
spelingmastir
05-16-11, 12:44
I too live in a ban state and don't get the luxury of using many of the mags available elsewhere. I appreciate all of the insight in what to watch out for and how to improve what we can use. Thanks for all of the information!
Can you elaborate on this? Rather than just laying the turd in the punchbowl, how about helping people understand why they should happily bite down on it. :D
I know I'd be curious to know more about this. You've got:
body
spring
follower
floorplate
I'd like to know how D&H and NHMTG differ, and then what makes the differences in the NHMTG better. Especially since I have examples of both.
I would like to know this as well. I currently have a few dozen of the BCM mags, assuming that their use of them is a good endorsement.
Can you elaborate on this? Rather than just laying the turd in the punchbowl, how about helping people understand why they should happily bite down on it. :D
I know I'd be curious to know more about this. You've got:
body
spring
follower
floorplate
I'd like to know how D&H and NHMTG differ, and then what makes the differences in the NHMTG better. Especially since I have examples of both.
To be more precise you have an example of a magazine known to be of high quality and highly reliable and an example of a price point magazine.
For the purpose of this discussion NHMTG and Colt are one in the same.
NHMTG magazines are manufactured by a company (Okay) that is held to a number of standards (albeit government) that D&H isn't. The quality of the components (spring and body) and manufacturing processes are reflected in the higher cost of the magazine. NHMTG magazines aren't manufactured on a different machine.
This whole discussion goes back to the "settle for less" thread. If you believe that D&H are just as good for $X less then you have a winner on your hands. I am not willing to risk the reliability of any rifle on a cheap magazine nor am I willing to buy enough of them and put thousands of rounds through them to prove to myself that they are in fact just as good.
Yeah.... D&H started down the path that those ****tards at Cprod went.
But they seemed to have shaped up to be a decent mag. That said... I would never buy one with NHMTG available. NHMTG 20s and 30s are superior to anything out there.
I've missed that episode. Could you elaborate?
The last I looked at springs these were the holy cow ultimate in springs.
CS springs are trash. They corrode badly. It was the big fad amongst the knock off mag producers to run those stupid springs for a while.
Magpul tested CS springs for the Pmag, and they failed by a HUGE margin.
Beat Trash
05-16-11, 13:34
Originally Posted by Whiskey_Bravo
Not $8, but close. D&H mags with Magpul Enhanced followers.
$9.99
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15...h%20bt30mf.htm
$8.99 w/o the magpul follower.
Are they GTG, though? Those magazines are what ship with BCM rifles, and I've yet to have a problem with one, but what are the reasons the NHMTG mags are better?
I've been using the D&H teflon coated magazines since about 2005. They are my favorite magazine prior to my making the switch to PMAG's.
If I were to buy more aluminum magazines, it'd be these with the magpul followers installed.
To be more precise you have an example of a magazine known to be of high quality and highly reliable and an example of a price point magazine.
For the purpose of this discussion NHMTG and Colt are one in the same.
NHMTG magazines are manufactured by a company (Okay) that is held to a number of standards (albeit government) that D&H isn't. The quality of the components (spring and body) and manufacturing processes are reflected in the higher cost of the magazine. NHMTG magazines aren't manufactured on a different machine.
This whole discussion goes back to the "settle for less" thread. If you believe that D&H are just as good for $X less then you have a winner on your hands. I am not willing to risk the reliability of any rifle on a cheap magazine nor am I willing to buy enough of them and put thousands of rounds through them to prove to myself that they are in fact just as good.
Specifically, what are the differences in the parts used? I'm willing to buy into the concept, christ that was the whole genesis of the chart, but we're talking in circles now.
At least you drilled down some, so we're getting somewhere as you appear to have eliminated the floorplate and the follower from the equation. Safe to assume, then, that the floorplate doesn't matter and the follower is the same across type (green:green, Magpul:Magpul)?
What is the makeup of the NHMTG spring, and what is the makeup of the D&H spring, and how is one better than the other and what are the risks of having the "wrong" spring?
What is the makeup of the NHMTG body, and what is the makeup of the D&H body, and how is one better than the other and what are the risks of having the "wrong" body?
and please don't make this out to be trying to justify one thing over another. I'm already resolved to store my D&H (assuming I find all of them) and am building my new mags on NHMTG bodies, but I'd like to know more about this and I think others would too.
Pat Rogers says "those who are not required to hold to a standard, rarely do" and I agree with this sentiment, but I want to understand more about what that means in this case.
Was D&H not once a govt. contract magazine supplier? if so, are they not producing magazines to that same spec or has the spec changed? and what about Brownells' claim to be a military magazine supplier?
While we are on the subject of springs, I would still like more clarification on that as well.
What are the options available currently in the various "GI-style" magazines? Stainless, chrome-silicone, and...?
D&H's website (http://www.dhmetalstamping.com/magazines.htm) says 17-7ph (http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/17-7.asp#Spec) which is a stainless steel.
ETA:
Appears to be a pretty good explanation here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30101), except that the OP there has also posted in this thread and the two conclusions counter one another, leading me to believe that something changed his mind about stainless springs between then and now.
Whiskey_Bravo
05-16-11, 14:04
Turning out to be a pretty good thread.
Any other information as to why D&H are not gtg would be appreciated.
Doc Safari
05-16-11, 14:15
Everything else Bravo Company does seems to be on the up-and-up and of verifiable quality. Why would they skimp on magazines, especially since the D & H mags with the MagPul followers are what they ship with the rifles? It would be a helluva thing to build a high quality rifle and then take a chance on multiple warranty calls because the magazine shipped with it was crappy. :jester:
The one thing about the D & H mags that doesn't seem right is the shiny black finish to the mag body. All military mags I've handled were matte finished unless they had been somewhat polished from handling.
Everything else Bravo Company does seems to be on the up-and-up and of verifiable quality. Why would they skimp on magazines, especially since the D & H mags with the MagPul followers are what they ship with the rifles? It would be a helluva thing to build a high quality rifle and then take a chance on multiple warranty calls because the magazine shipped with it was crappy. :jester:
I would be careful about assuming anything.
The one thing about the D & H mags that doesn't seem right is the shiny black finish to the mag body. All military mags I've handled were matte finished unless they had been somewhat polished from handling.
The D&H are teflon finished. So far that seems to be getting a negative vote from the NHMTG crowd, but add it to the list of things I'd like more explanation of.
While we are on the subject of springs, I would still like more clarification on that as well.
What are the options available currently in the various "GI-style" magazines? Stainless, chrome-silicone, and...?
D&H's website (http://www.dhmetalstamping.com/magazines.htm) says 17-7ph (http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/17-7.asp#Spec) which is a stainless steel.
ETA:
Appears to be a pretty good explanation here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30101), except that the OP there has also posted in this thread and the two conclusions counter one another, leading me to believe that something changed his mind about stainless springs between then and now.
Right after the ban sunsetted you could by DH mags with CS springs from the factory. I ordered 10 of them because that was all I could get at the time for a decent price.
I got rid of all of them last year on gunbroker.
They probably quit doing the CS thing.
ffhounddog
05-16-11, 14:47
Many of my D&H mags before the 2008 election were dry filmed. Maybe their commercials suppliers want teflon verse dry-filmed?
http://www.44mag.com/product/d_h_usgi_ar15_magazine_dryfilm/49
D&H dry filmed.
RAM Engineer
05-16-11, 14:51
Everything else Bravo Company does seems to be on the up-and-up and of verifiable quality. Why would they skimp on magazines, especially since the D & H mags with the MagPul followers are what they ship with the rifles? It would be a helluva thing to build a high quality rifle and then take a chance on multiple warranty calls because the magazine shipped with it was crappy.
BCM also sold TAPCO magazines for a while, so they WILL sell garbage.
Was D&H not once a govt. contract magazine supplier? if so, are they not producing magazines to that same spec or has the spec changed? and what about Brownells' claim to be a military magazine supplier?
DH used to be Labelle. I have some preban Labelles and they are more like a NHMTG/Okay than a DH.
I don't have any experience with the Brownells magazines and I'm not going to buy them to waste rounds in them to prove functioning and the associated time and money spent.
ffhounddog
05-16-11, 14:59
I have one brownells mag because getting the mag qualified me for free shipping and it was cheaper for the mag than the shipping charge. It works but its one of one.
Many of my D&H mags before the 2008 election were dry filmed. Maybe their commercials suppliers want teflon verse dry-filmed?
http://www.44mag.com/product/d_h_usgi_ar15_magazine_dryfilm/49
D&H dry filmed.
Perhaps they make a USGI magazine now, but they didn't before.
I will buy a few of these and try them.
If all else is equal here, it would appear that teflon is a less expensive finish:
Twenty Pack D&H 30rd Dryfilm AR15 Mags + Free PMAG $11/ea (http://www.44mag.com/product/d_h_20_pack_ar15_magazines_free_pmag/d_h_industries)
20 Pack D&H 30rd Black Teflon AR15 Mags + Free PMAG $9/ea (http://www.44mag.com/product/20_pack_ar-15_mags_free_pmag/d_h_industries)
(I ignored the Pmag in each)
One wonders, however, about the spring as the D&H site says stainless but 44mag says "USGI spec magazines", although it says this for both the dry film and the teflon.
If all else is equal here, it would appear that teflon is a less expensive finish:
Twenty Pack D&H 30rd Dryfilm AR15 Mags + Free PMAG $11/ea (http://www.44mag.com/product/d_h_20_pack_ar15_magazines_free_pmag/d_h_industries)
20 Pack D&H 30rd Black Teflon AR15 Mags + Free PMAG $9/ea (http://www.44mag.com/product/20_pack_ar-15_mags_free_pmag/d_h_industries)
(I ignored the Pmag in each)
One wonders, however, about the spring as the D&H site says stainless but 44mag says "USGI spec magazines", although it says this for both the dry film and the teflon.
Yes teflon is less expensive. All those cheap package deals they have always have teflon ones.
Beat Trash
05-16-11, 15:42
Although the Mil Spec does not call for teflon on the body, is coating the mag body with teflon a bad thing? If so, why?
I bought a couple of the D&H teflon coated mags in 2005. At the time, I was assisting with the implementation of my Departments Patrol Rifle program. I spent 3 weeks at the range. I ran the D&H mags thorough several two day cycles to test them. They worked great. Better than what I could say about the Brownells mags that my agency had bought as spares.
A couple of years ago, D&H supposedly won the contract for the State if Israel, to replace all of their magazines. While this doesn't mean much when comparing the D&H to the actual USGI, I have a hard time believing Israel would place such a large order without doing some testing to ensure the product was serviceable.
I'm not trying to say one is better. I am wondering if one is better, and if so, then why? As Rob stated, if you were to remove the follower and the baseplate from both, and maybe the springs, is one body of better quality than the other?
Interesting read here also. Thanks. So it seems that the general consensus with GI mags are that Colt and NHTMG are the ones to seriously look at?
Doc Safari
05-16-11, 16:20
Let's add this to the mix:
44mag also offers the NHMTG mags with the MagPul follower:
http://www.44mag.com/product/nhmtg_magazine_magpul_follower/nhmtg
(I think someone else mentioned this earlier, but without posting the link).
warriorsociologist
05-16-11, 16:40
^
I have 10 of these and they work well. I have only 9-10 loadings per mag so far on them, but I can't recall having any mag-related stoppages with these.
Every time I "think" that I'm beginning to get a handle on things, a thread like this pops up and muddies the water. Of course, that's not really a complaint since threads like this actually provide more insight into the whys of things and (hopefully) make me a better equipped individual. This site has helped me more than I can express in terms of the hardware I've purchased.
I was preparing to place an order with Bravo Company for some D&H magazines, but it looks like I'll hold off until I better understand what's being written here and can make a more definitive decision.
Thanks, folks...I can't say it enough.
CS springs are trash. They corrode badly. It was the big fad amongst the knock off mag producers to run those stupid springs for a while.
Magpul tested CS springs for the Pmag, and they failed by a HUGE margin.
Thanks.
Not sure how happy I am with these results. Not sure how long the paint will last nor how legible it is. the first issue probably matters more than the second.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/77e3ceca.jpg
Interesting insights.
Where does one buy new Colt GI mags if you are a civilian--other than a mag here and a mag there for usually two or more times what a PMAG or D&H mag costs?
thanks
Heavy Metal
05-16-11, 18:50
NHMTG are Colt's contractor. Same mag, different floorplate.
Not sure how happy I am with these results. Not sure how long the paint will last nor how legible it is. the first issue probably matters more than the second.
I have yet found any paint that is permanent, however, some are more durable than others.
There is a clear coat that's very tough and durable that we use for protecting markings on certain parts on aircraft. I don't recall what it is or what it's made of as I'm not a painter. However, if you were to use such a clear coat, you could mark your mags where the thickness of the paint wouldn't interfere with being inserted, then seal the markings with the clear coat.
What I can tell you, the green primer we use, which is very tough indeed and fluid resistant (resistant against fuels & oils), is a two part epoxy type paint.
There are also anti-chafe paints that resist being rubbed through. It's used where one part could chafe against another, such as where wing to body fairings mate to the airframe. The down side to this is paints are very expensive
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cs/primers.html
http://www.pwpaints.com/
Interesting insights.
Where does one buy new Colt GI mags if you are a civilian--other than a mag here and a mag there for usually two or more times what a PMAG or D&H mag costs?
thanks
======================================
Two months ago, I bought 10 NIW Colt 30-rounders for $100 at a gun show. He had them marked $15 each and he had 10 left. I asked him how much for all of them.
I've seen more than one dealer with them for $15-$20 each.
Never know...
.
44mag has Colt GI's at a whopping $18 each.
I have yet found any paint that is permanent, however, some are more durable than others.
There is a clear coat that's very tough and durable that we use for protecting markings on certain parts on aircraft. I don't recall what it is or what it's made of as I'm not a painter. However, if you were to use such a clear coat, you could mark your mags where the thickness of the paint wouldn't interfere with being inserted, then seal the markings with the clear coat.
What I can tell you, the green primer we use, which is very tough indeed and fluid resistant (resistant against fuels & oils), is a two part epoxy type paint.
There are also anti-chafe paints that resist being rubbed through. It's used where one part could chafe against another, such as where wing to body fairings mate to the airframe. The down side to this is paints are very expensive
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cs/primers.html
http://www.pwpaints.com/
In doing some brief poking around, and from what I know of painting buildings (my day job is construction management), oil-based paints vs. acrylics are the way to go, which is why I chose the Sharpie brand. At this point I've started down the path of marking all of them so I'll continue on with the 30 mags I have and then finish up with the 20 more I still need to buy.
Apparently Brownells and Okay have a contract to supply magazines to the military.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=859c8468101b55f133a5ea4a1a6fc817&tab=core&tabmode=list&print_preview=1
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=11712/guntechdetail/Brownells_Gets_New_TACOM_Magazine_Contract
I got away from aluminum mags because trying to stack a pile of empties sounds like robots having rough sex.
So the plot thickens.
In digging through some things I stumbled upon a number of floorplates that were equal in count to the shit magazines, and what do you know... (I won't even put my watermark on this crap)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/690d3ad6.jpg
Additionally, I was wrong about my earlier boxes. For the most part what you see in the box with the followers-up in the first post are pre-ban if they are Magpuls or black, D&H/Bravo if they are green (which, it turns out, accounts for my missing Bravos). However, I found several other pre-bans elsewhere, including a few that look like this.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/bed0f41a.jpg
It is so funny. I KNOW that those dates mean nothing on those magazines now but when I look at them I still feel like they're the holy grail of magazines. That's what happens to those of us that got into ARs and the like during the ban. :jester:
And finally the full pile of what I believe are all pre-ban. Some of the 20s are perhaps newer but they also don't appear to be dated so...
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/9f96a82b.jpg
In that pile are Center, Okay, Sanchez, Lakk (I think) and God knows what else. Back then there were pages of internut arguments about which one was best. wait... :ph34r:
Heavy Metal
05-16-11, 20:39
Apparently Brownells and Okay have a contract to supply magazines to the military.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=859c8468101b55f133a5ea4a1a6fc817&tab=core&tabmode=list&print_preview=1
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=11712/guntechdetail/Brownells_Gets_New_TACOM_Magazine_Contract
NHMTG=Okay=Colt. All made in the same place with a different marked floorplate except I think NHMTG replace the Okay stamp.
snackgunner
05-16-11, 21:05
Every time I "think" that I'm beginning to get a handle on things, a thread like this pops up and muddies the water. Of course, that's not really a complaint since threads like this actually provide more insight into the whys of things and (hopefully) make me a better equipped individual. This site has helped me more than I can express in terms of the hardware I've purchased.
I was preparing to place an order with Bravo Company for some D&H magazines, but it looks like I'll hold off until I better understand what's being written here and can make a more definitive decision.
Thanks, folks...I can't say it enough.
+1
Except a while back I went ahead an ordered a bunch of the DH mags from Bravo Company and thought I had nothing to worry about.
Ill be following this thread.
+1
Except a while back I went ahead an ordered a bunch of the DH mags from Bravo Company and thought I had nothing to worry about.
Ill be following this thread.
Until someone shows up and can actually quantify what the problem with them is, I wouldn't worry about it.
For me, I had enough of this and that to make me want to start essentially from scratch. I couldn't think of a reason *not* to salvage the Ranger Plates but otherwise I wanted to start fresh, and I wanted a full batch of identical mags save number and color of floorplate, and the NHMTG seemed as good a place to start as any. Since I have 30 of them now and am well into the process of rebuilding them my way, I'll finish out my load of 50 from them.
But while I may try to sell off my D&H, just to get some funds to complete the project, I'm not going to feel bad about keeping them if it doesn't pan out.
Interesting insights.
Where does one buy new Colt GI mags if you are a civilian--other than a mag here and a mag there for usually two or more times what a PMAG or D&H mag costs?
thanks
Hello,
COLT Factory Mags are all I use & buy, and I get all of mine from Specialized Armament.
COLT Factory 30-Rd. Mag http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/MAGAZINE_ASSY_223_5_56MM_30RD_COLT_FACTORY_GREEN_FOLLOWER-272-4.html
COLT Factory 20-Rd. Mag (my personal favorite, and what I use the most) http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/MAGAZINE_ASSY_223_5_56MM_20RD_COLT_FACTORY-268-4.html
SA also offers USGI CAGE Code 33710 mags on their AR-15 Parts Page for a coupla bucs less than the COLT Factory mags and they offer COLT Factory Springs & Followers as well as Ken's Famous Red Spring: http://www.specializedarmament.com/content/skins/flat/popup_issue_96.html
BTW: This is an interesting thread, but since COLT Factory Magazines are readily available - why buy anything else.
SWATcop556
05-16-11, 21:16
I have been running ten of the BravoCo. D&H mags for a few months now without issues. I don't believe they are going to self-destruct any time soon. They've been every bit as reliable as my Colt GI mags for the 1000 or so rounds I've shot through them.
I recently picked up a shit ton of Colt 30 rounders from DOE where they had fired 60 rounds through each mag for function check then stored. I paid $8 per mag. Needless to say I stocked up.
BTW: This is an interesting thread, but since COLT Factory Magazines are readily available - why buy anything else.
Because by all accounts you are LITERALLY paying twice as much for a different floorplate?
SWATcop556
05-16-11, 21:22
Because by all accounts you are LITERALLY paying twice as much for a different floorplate?
Agreed. The only reason I have Colt mags in bulk is because I picked them up for a stellar price. I see no reason to pay $22 a mag. The D&H and NHMTG mags work just fine.
Agreed. The only reason I have Colt mags in bulk is because I picked them up for a stellar price. I see no reason to pay $22 a mag. The D&H and NHMTG mags work just fine.
Oh, I'd have been all over them at $8/ea as well.
kaltesherz
05-16-11, 21:34
I've been using USGI Okay mags w/ Magpul Gen III followers for range / training / SHTF mags and have had exactly ZERO feeding issues with them for about 3,000 rounds. I always load them to 28 rounds which makes bolt-forward reloads a breeze. I have some beat-to-shit mags that are probably older than some of the new members on this site and they still function 100%.
Very early on in my time in the service I learned that mags are disposable, ironically something the Army didn't seem to know as pretty much every mag issued to me and every other 11X at Benning was more blown out than Lindsay Lohan after an all-nighter. As long as they're periodically inspected and not abused, USGI's will last a long time. And when they do act up, salvage the Magpul follower and toss the body. Okay's bodies seem to be much higher quality than Centerfire mags (the other major USGI contractor), I've had issues with those ranging from NIW mags that wouldn't fit a into the magwell of my M4 to prematurely splitting down the spine.
I mark my mags with a paint pen, first three letter from my last name on the floorplate and then number it on the side. Stays until I want to remove it, then I just spray a little CLP on and wipe off.
Oh and the best part of USGI mags is they're always lying around when you're in the military. I must have 60 at home and that's only because I refused to pick up any centerfire's (which were far more common with my unit). They also seem to make reloads just a little faster and smoother.
On the negative side I've seen more malfunctions in M4's due to bad USGI mags than any other reason, when issue mags shit the bed it's not as obvious as Pmags and since it's hard to rotate through all your mags regularly and they get beat up pretty bad on deployments many don't realize it until they get constant double feeds / FTF in contact. The most common failures I've seen have been bent and cracked feed lips.
But there's still a place for Pmags. They're more durable (in black), with a window you can easily check your round count, can load to full 30 rounds, excellent customer service, and they run like butter through SAWs / M249s (something USGI mags suck at). All my HD mags are black Pmags.
mkmckinley
05-16-11, 22:43
Not to get too off topic, but is there really a difference in performance that corresponds to the color of a Pmag? How many people ave noticed this?
kaltesherz
05-16-11, 22:52
Not to get too off topic, but is there really a difference in performance that corresponds to the color of a Pmag? How many people ave noticed this?
I've heard that Black Pmags are stronger than the FDE version. The only failure I've had was an FDE and it's feed lip cracked just from the strain of being kept loaded for a few months. I used it downrange for maybe 3-4 months, came home, inspected it, loaded and then a few months later noticed it had cracked. This is a whopping case of ONE magazine, so take it for what it is.
FYI I contacted Magpul about it and they replaced it no questions asked.
Because by all accounts you are LITERALLY paying twice as much for a different floorplate?
Hello,
No, their actually only $4.00 dollars more than the CAGE Code 33710 USGI Magazine, and the COLT marked mags are made to COLT Spec's and since that involves a higher level of quality control, I'll gladly pay the extra coupla bucs for them vs. the 33710 mags (which would be my second choice).
30 Rd. USGI CAGE Code 33710 Magazine, $18.00 http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/MAGAZINE_ASSY_223_5_56MM_30RD_USGI_CAGEC_33710-276-4.html
BTW: The COLT Factory mags are roll-marked COLT on the body as well as the base plate (and have been for quite some time now) so keep this in mind when shopping for COLT Factory 5.56 Magazines.
kaltesherz
05-16-11, 23:17
Hello,
No, their actually only $4.00 dollars more than OKay's CAGE Code 33710 USGI Magazine, and the COLT marked mags are made to COLT Spec's and since that involves a higher level of quality control, I'll gladly pay the extra coupla bucs for them vs. the OKay branded mags (which would be my second choice).
OKay's 33710 USGI Magazine, $18.00 http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/MAGAZINE_ASSY_223_5_56MM_30RD_USGI_CAGEC_33710-276-4.html
BTW: The COLT Factory mags are roll-marked COLT on the body as well as the base plate (and have been for quite some time now) so keep this in mind when shopping for COLT Factory 5.56 Magazines.
Where have you heard / seen that Colt marked mags are any different than Okay marked ones? I've never been able to tell any difference in the few I've seen. I serious doubt there's any difference other than markings, but if you've got proof...
urbankaos04
05-16-11, 23:33
I have a couple of comments.
1) Quality of Brownell's mags: Initially they had some issues, but from what I understand they were fixed. IIRC, Pat Rogers gave them the green light after they fixed the issues. I need to confirm this, as this was awhile back, but for the life of me I do recall them being deemed "good to go."
2)Quality AR15 magazine springs: In talking to staff from SimpleSurvival.info, I found out that they carry springs from this company: Connecticut Spring and Stamping ( http://www.ctspring.com/springs.aspx ) I was informed that they supply magazine springs for Checkmate Industries, which if I am not mistaken, are contracted to make M14 magazines. Now, I remember buying some M1A magazine rebuild kits via the M14 Forum and the kits we acquired (Checkmate Industries magazine bodies and springs) had springs built to specs unlike the fake springs that were being sold via K9 Elite with their M14 magazines. Basically, the CheckMate Industries stuff were deemed good to go as the springs were free of any defects, unlike the K9 Elite magazine springs which had manufacturing indentations in the corners/turns of the magazine springs, which the mil-spec stated the springs should NOT have. I don't know, however, if these AR15 mag springs are also being made to the higher standard.
Here's a link to the Check-Mate Industries site denoting that they are a supplier to the US military for the M14 magazine:
http://www.checkmateindustries.com/handgun.htm#tbl5
Link to Brownells AR15 magazine springs:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=41777/Product/AR_15_M16_HIGH_CAPACITY_MAGAZINE_SPRINGS
TOS LINKS:
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=525656
Add'l info: Seems that the EARLY Brownells mags were being produced by CPRODUCTS, but they dropped them due to the issues they were having with them. Since then, their mags have been much better it appears.
I continue to be amazed by lack of any objectivity in regards to magazine discussions. Just about everything posted here is anecdotal evidence and personal experience [which, from scientific standpoint, is anecdotal evidence], isn't it? Just makes it amusing the hear that USGI vs. non-USGI vs. polymer stuff.
Let me ask you then. I couple of years ago we all were talking about that famous/infamous dust test that Army did at Aberdeen Proving Grounds; of course, the discussion then was about piston vs. DI. M4 had almost 900 stoppages and somewhere 25-30% of those were attributed to magazines. I bet you every single one of those was a USGI mag. This is just about only one piece of semi-scientific data I know of. How's that for reliability record? Does anybody else have anything else of a similar sample size? Am I to believe that D&H or Brownell's mag would've had 50% stoppage rate?
If Rob, or anybody else, wants to set his mags in a very specific way - well, great, everyone has own reasons, ergonomic, financial, personal experience,whatever.
Bad products almost invariably get weeded out very early. Once it is out in a wild and we don't hear anything bad after reasonably wide adoption - even in civilian market - I consider it good to go. My Brownell mags have done as well as D&H, that have done as well as two Okay mags I had (until I stepped on them), that have done as well as single FNH mag I have somewhere. This has been my personal experience. Anybody has data to contrary?
Hello,
No, their actually only $4.00 dollars more than OKay's CAGE Code 33710 USGI Magazine, and the COLT marked mags are made to COLT Spec's and since that involves a higher level of quality control, I'll gladly pay the extra coupla bucs for them vs. the OKay branded mags (which would be my second choice).
OKay's 33710 USGI Magazine, $18.00 http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/MAGAZINE_ASSY_223_5_56MM_30RD_USGI_CAGEC_33710-276-4.html
BTW: The COLT Factory mags are roll-marked COLT on the body as well as the base plate (and have been for quite some time now) so keep this in mind when shopping for COLT Factory 5.56 Magazines.
You can't just link to another over-priced product.
I'm going to put it to you the same way I have been the others, quantify exactly what makes the magazines you've linked to better, or even different, than the NHMTG which by ALL accounts are the exact same magazines you're paying $22 for, less a roll mark.
Or, put another way, what are you getting for your extra $11/mag other than one less mag?
I continue to be amazed by lack of any objectivity in regards to magazine discussions. Just about everything posted here is anecdotal evidence and personal experience [which, from scientific standpoint, is anecdotal evidence], isn't it? Just makes it amusing the hear that USGI vs. non-USGI vs. polymer stuff.
Let me ask you then. I couple of years ago we all were talking about that famous/infamous dust test that Army did at Aberdeen Proving Grounds; of course, the discussion then was about piston vs. DI. M4 had almost 900 stoppages and somewhere 25-30% of those were attributed to magazines. I bet you every single one of those was a USGI mag. This is just about only one piece of semi-scientific data I know of. How's that for reliability record? Does anybody else have anything else of a similar sample size? Am I to believe that D&H or Brownell's mag would've had 50% stoppage rate?
If Rob, or anybody else, wants to set his mags in a very specific way - well, great, everyone has own reasons, ergonomic, financial, personal experience,whatever.
Bad products almost invariably get weeded out very early. Once it is out in a wild and we don't hear anything bad after reasonably wide adoption - even in civilian market - I consider it good to go. My Brownell mags have done as well as D&H, that have done as well as two Okay mags I had (until I stepped on them), that have done as well as single FNH mag I have somewhere. This has been my personal experience. Anybody has data to contrary?
That kind of data is exactly what I'm looking for. But I'm not shut off to the possibility that it exists. Years ago I heard all the time that "Colt ARs are the best", and I set out to find out why. Today I am convinced and I find more and more reasons to be so every week.
In the case of the magazine there is only so much it can be. Body, spring, follower, floorplate. The follower is a plastic molding and the floorplate is a flat stamping so it appears we're down to two. From there it breaks down to material, treatment of material, fabrication, and finish. Given that the seemingly otherwise identical magazines from D&H are $2/ea more for dry film over teflon, I'm willing to bet there's something to that, although it's also entirely possible that the spec says dry film, so they use fry film, even if teflon is better, so it would be nice if someone making claims of "better" can back them up.
I'm also perfectly willing to accept that one spring is better than another. It seems we have three choices: "piano wire", stainless steel, and chrome-silicone. So far one of the people saying piano wire is better has a post from two years ago saying stainless is better, and knowing how thorough that person tends to be I'm interested in hearing what changed.
One note. I would be very, very careful about statements like this:
"Bad products almost invariably get weeded out very early."
In the firearms industry, where buyers:users:heavy users is something on the order of 75:20:5, you can make a shitty product and it can continue to sell for eons. Again, look at the rifles themselves. Or even the Crap-Products magazines that some people will continue to defend. And, in the case of magazines, how many cycles do you think even a heavy user has through them? Someone doing a lot of shooting is likely to have a lot of magazines.For a pretty small training load of 20 mags total that's two cycles per mag. It takes a LONG time for any meaningful number of cycles. A typical 1k round carbine class requires 36 magazine cycles, so let's call it 40 with tac-loads. I've attended classes with 50 loaded magazines and not jammed a mag once in three days. When the real-life end-use of a product is "sit in the corner and make me feel cool and get dragged out for internut picture-posting", all a magazine has to do is look passable to get the owner's seal of approval.
Ed
From the discussion so far the floor plate is changed. But here is a link.
http://www.44mag.com/product/colt_30_ar15_magazine/colt
I'm going to go this route
http://www.44mag.com/product/nhmtg_magazine_magpul_follower/nhmtg
Interesting insights.
Where does one buy new Colt GI mags if you are a civilian--other than a mag here and a mag there for usually two or more times what a PMAG or D&H mag costs?
thanks
I have yet found any paint that is permanent, however, some are more durable than others.
There is a clear coat that's very tough and durable that we use for protecting markings on certain parts on aircraft. I don't recall what it is or what it's made of as I'm not a painter. However, if you were to use such a clear coat, you could mark your mags where the thickness of the paint wouldn't interfere with being inserted, then seal the markings with the clear coat.
What I can tell you, the green primer we use, which is very tough indeed and fluid resistant (resistant against fuels & oils), is a two part epoxy type paint.
There are also anti-chafe paints that resist being rubbed through. It's used where one part could chafe against another, such as where wing to body fairings mate to the airframe. The down side to this is paints are very expensive
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cs/primers.html
http://www.pwpaints.com/
Not to take this off course of a very interesting thread, but isn't the "paint" actually zinc chromate?
Where have you heard / seen that Colt marked mags are any different than Okay marked ones? I've never been able to tell any difference in the few I've seen. I serious doubt there's any difference other than markings, but if you've got proof...
Hello,
I buy the COLT mags because they should be held to a higher level of quality control.
Short story on why I feel that way regarding the COLT marked mags. My grandma worked at a very big mill back in her day, and they supplied several different name-brand stores with their goods - and even though their goods were made by the same people on the same machines, there was a couple of their accounts that insisted on a flawless product. Her boss would hold a meeting everytime a run would come up for the account(s) that insisted on a flawless product, and he would remind his workers that "this run" is for so-in-so and they'll except nothing less than a perfect product, so double your QC checks and hold your work to the closest tolerances possible, and do-not-box anything that isn't perfect for these accounts - or they'll send it right back to us!
So, I'm quite content paying a coupla bucs extra for the brand that more-than-likely demands the highest level of quality. And no, I can't prove that they do, but atleast I have the peice of mind in knowing that I've bought what should be the "best of the best" for my COLT Rifles & Carbines, and since all my guns are solely owned for defending Liberty, Life & Property - it helps me rest better at night knowing that I've done everything I can do to insure that I have the best products for the task at hand.
.
One note. I would be very, very careful about statements like this:
"Bad products almost invariably get weeded out very early."
In the firearms industry, where buyers:users:heavy users is something on the order of 75:20:5, you can make a shitty product and it can continue to sell for eons. Again, look at the rifles themselves. Or even the Crap-Products magazines that some people will continue to defend. And, in the case of magazines, how many cycles do you think even a heavy user has through them? Someone doing a lot of shooting is likely to have a lot of magazines.For a pretty small training load of 20 mags total that's two cycles per mag. It takes a LONG time for any meaningful number of cycles. A typical 1k round carbine class requires 36 magazine cycles, so let's call it 40 with tac-loads. I've attended classes with 50 loaded magazines and not jammed a mag once in three days. When the real-life end-use of a product is "sit in the corner and make me feel cool and get dragged out for internut picture-posting", all a magazine has to do is look passable to get the owner's seal of approval.
This is a very valid point, Rob. I had thought of it myself awhile ago when I started to track round counts through my 1911 mags.
It also serves a purpose of showing that data coming from one user, even a heavy one, can be and usually is very limited.
I was mostly alluding to the fact that we now how some cumulative data. Of course, there is a lot of BS on "internut" so it is a function of reader's critical thinking to sort through it.
My personal approach to limited cycling exposure, once I realized it, is a "training pool" of about 30 mags, with 4-6 samples of each manufacturer I consider worthy of attention. Since 2008, that same training pool went through 7 classes with me, and that's how I collect my data. This is also a reason why I am relatively anal about keeping my round counts.
You can't just link to another over-priced product.
I'm going to put it to you the same way I have been the others, quantify exactly what makes the magazines you've linked to better, or even different, than the NHMTG which by ALL accounts are the exact same magazines you're paying $22 for, less a roll mark.
Or, put another way, what are you getting for your extra $11/mag other than one less mag?
Colt marked mags are not double that of an Okay marked one.
They are $4 to $5 more.
Okay/NH is $11 and Colt is $15~$16 at 44mag.com
Colt marked mags are not double that of an Okay marked one.
They are $4 to $5 more.
Okay/NH is $11 and Colt is $15~$16 at 44mag.com
PLEASE link to where 44mag offers them less than $18.99/per mag for Colt's--I do not have a LE/Mil account set up with them (yet?) and so far I only see wholesale acct offerings after a cursory look..
On an aside, crap my tan Brownells mags have CS springs--is SS a USGI spec for springs?
Colt marked mags are not double that of an Okay marked one.
They are $4 to $5 more.
Okay/NH is $11 and Colt is $15~$16 at 44mag.com
Hold on.
By all accounts here NHMTG is a Colt mag less the markings, which is also an OKAY mag.
Bob suggested Colt mags from SAW at $22/ea (http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/MAGAZINE_ASSY_223_5_56MM_30RD_COLT_FACTORY_GREEN_FOLLOWER-272-0.html). He acknowledged that these were re-badged OKAY, which SAW has for $18 (http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/MAGAZINE_ASSY_223_5_56MM_30RD_USGI_CAGEC_33710-276-0.html).
What appears to be the same Colt magazines are at 44mag.com for $19/ea (http://www.44mag.com/product/colt_30_ar15_magazine/colt), while the NHMTG at 44mag.com are $11/ea (http://www.44mag.com/product/nhmtg_30_usgi_ar15_magazine/nhmtg).
Which brings us back to where we started, which is why would you pay $19-22 for the same mag you can get for $11?
SWATcop556
05-17-11, 09:31
Colt marked mags are not double that of an Okay marked one.
They are $4 to $5 more.
Okay/NH is $11 and Colt is $15~$16 at 44mag.com
The mags he link to from SAW were these which are $22.
http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/MAGAZINE_ASSY_223_5_56MM_30RD_COLT_FACTORY_GREEN_FOLLOWER-272-4.html
$22 is twice as much as $11 for the NHMTG from 44mag.
ETA: looks like we were all typing at the same time.
Hold on.
By all accounts here NHMTG is a Colt mag less the markings, which is also an OKAY mag.
Bob suggested Colt mags from SAW at $22/ea (http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/MAGAZINE_ASSY_223_5_56MM_30RD_COLT_FACTORY_GREEN_FOLLOWER-272-0.html). He acknowledged that these were re-badged OKAY, which SAW has for $18 (http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/MAGAZINE_ASSY_223_5_56MM_30RD_USGI_CAGEC_33710-276-0.html).
What appears to be the same Colt magazines are at 44mag.com for $19/ea (http://www.44mag.com/product/colt_30_ar15_magazine/colt), while the NHMTG at 44mag.com are $11/ea (http://www.44mag.com/product/nhmtg_30_usgi_ar15_magazine/nhmtg).
Which brings us back to where we started, which is why would you pay $19-22 for the same mag you can get for $11?
Colt mags used to be $15 to $16 at 44mag
They must have raised their prices.
toasterlocker
05-17-11, 10:07
Hello,
I buy the COLT mags because they should be held to a higher level of quality control.
I guess the big question is whether they do, or they "should." Does anyone here know for sure one way or another? If no one does, I'm going for what is less expensive.
ffhounddog
05-17-11, 10:10
I am going to have to take a picture of the new Mags the Army just got from Okay. it has a new follower.
ffh
I am going to have to take a picture of the new Mags the Army just got from Okay. it has a new follower.
ffh
The tan ones? With the dummy round on the opposite side?
Have to wonder how much they spent developing that follower when there was an existing known performer on the commercial market they could have simply purchased outright or worked with the manufacturer to improve if it was somehow lacking. No, instead they start from scratch.
:jester:
ffhounddog
05-17-11, 10:18
Not sure how happy I am with these results. Not sure how long the paint will last nor how legible it is. the first issue probably matters more than the second.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/77e3ceca.jpg
I used a FDE colored pen for my mags when they did not allow me to add magpul plated to them.
I had many of the magpul bottoms on my mags overseas but those were given to buddies that needed them. Magppul with L-plate if I remember right were normal mags and the ones with the quick pull had more tracer with the them.
ffh
kaltesherz
05-17-11, 10:20
The tan ones? With the dummy round on the opposite side?
Have to wonder how much they spent developing that follower when there was an existing known performer on the commercial market they could have simply purchased outright or worked with the manufacturer to improve if it was somehow lacking. No, instead they start from scratch.
:jester:
Apparently they spent as much designing the "new" follower as it would have cost to just buy COTS Magpul followers for every single magazine in the system. Plus I think it took them, what, 3 years?
Army Chief
05-17-11, 10:30
An interesting and worthwhile discussion, though I have to quietly wonder if we aren't just moving in circles here ...
Lest we forget, back when the PMAG was introduced, it became de rigueur to highlight the many shortcomings of the USGI magazine which were so convincingly addressed by the new design.
As YVK pointed out, we went down this very same path when the Army put the M4 through trials that were intended to lay the groundwork for adoption of a next-generation service rifle. Was the M4/M4A1 truly a deficient design, or were most of these failures attributable to the USGI magazines used in the test? Again, at the time, we were all fairly confident that the common denominator was the USGI magazine, and that the M4/M4A1 would have delivered a much more consistent performance had a modern polymer mag (i.e. PMAG) been used. What really changed?
Now, I'm not suggesting that the USGI magazine is suspect by any means, nor that there aren't qualitative differences between manufacturers. I just think we have to be careful not to default to a mindless herd mentality here wherein we all feel underprepared unless we have stockpiles of correctly-sprung MILSPEC dry-filmed NHMTG magazines with Magpul followers and Ranger Plates. The larger lesson here probably isn't that Colt-marked magazines are significantly better than NHMTG, nor that the NHMTG is infinitely superior to D&H or Brownells, nor even that any of these are in any way superior to the PMAG or an equivalent polymer product. The lesson should be that ALL magazines, of whatever origin and construction, are expendable items which can, and will, fail over time -- no matter how exceptional they might have been when they were new in the wrapper.
I'm all for dialing out as much of the margin for error as possible, and for USGI, perhaps that really does mean NHMTG. The statistical difference between this and something like the the D&H isn't likely to be significant in real terms, and I suspect we're well past the point of being able to objectively stack any of these up against the PMAG. I'm not even sure what the point of such an exercise would be this late in the game, since most of these products have pretty well-known track records.
For me, it comes to this:
1. Find something that works.
2. Buy in quantity.
3. Shoot the gun.
The hard part is disciplining oneself to make regular and incremental purchases now, instead of waiting for the next round of Congressional ban hearings, after which we may well find ourselves transported to a place where $40 for a CProducts 30-rounder might actually seem like a reasonable proposition. [shudder]
AC
Doc Safari
05-17-11, 10:34
Army Chief you put into words what my mind was having trouble expressing.
I was beginning to worry that this would turn into the no magazine is ever good enough thread.
I wish we had spend some more time on the D & H vs. NHMTG.
I'd love to hear from people who shoot both who notice deficiencies more in one than the other.
I'm not sure you would ever get closer to an answer than anecdotal evidence on something like this.
Here's one idea :D
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/4296578487_b124df1f35_b.jpg
this is what I do. looks all tactical and shit... :cool:
Rob,
Good thread. I'm starting to "go back" to GI mags, though in reality, I never really left them.
My mag break down goes something like this:
- Approx. 35 GI type mags with magpul followers and Ken Elmores red spring and standard magpuls, on sideways.
They are a mix of varied brands I accumulated over the years, including military service. I picked what looked to be the best bodies, upgraded them with the magpul followers and red springs. I bought a few C-products bodies and floorplates to round out the numbers. I gave away all the pre ban mags to a friend in NYC.
- I had about 30 Pmags of various vintages, colors and window/non windowed. I just sent 16 of them to a coworkers who's about to be deployed. The rest, I may sell off to coworkers who need mags.
- About 10 new GI mags with the new follower
- About 8-10 mags, GI type, Pmags, old mags, that stay in the rifle case, and are used for most home range training.
- a 100 count case of the Cage Code mags with red springs from Ken Elmore.
I have been, over the years, and outside the mil, been issued Colt mags, Colt mags with red springs, and Brownells mags.
The Pmags, while feeding fine, have had some issues with dropping free from my Colt's. I have a few that no amount of filing on the nubs helped. They present issues with mag pouches, and stacking. These are all no biggies in my book. I generally tell people to just buy Pmags and be done with it.
To me, their biggest advantage, is, it would be easier to see when they are unserviceable. They crack, rather then bend. Easy day.
I do like the way a GI mag "feels" when I grip it though. They seem to come out of a mag pouch a little easier also.
What it really comes down to, is I have more GI mags then Pmags.
While I understand about the Colt marked mags, I highly doubt a NHMTG or Okay mag are poor quality, they are after all, still GI mags.
Pat Rogers, noted often, that all real GI mags were the same, regardless of maker.
I also doubt D&H mags are poor quality, given the lengths, BCM goes to, to insure the quality of their guns.
The Brownells mags I've been issued have given us no issues that I'm aware of. Nothing out of the ordinary, that is a result from abuse, or poor maintenance. Keeping them loaded for extended periods of time, months to years, knocking them around in drawers, issue and turn in every day, being tossed around in mag pouches mounted to vests(standing a vest up in the corner, results in the weight of the vest resting on the mags, tossing the vest around does the same). Ive noted a few cracks and spread feed lips. Again, abuse.
Training mags, are the crap that has been withdrawn from service, for being unserviceable, so its hard to draw any feedback from them.
SwatCop556,
Gimme a push, or I'll contact you regarding the "DOE" mags. As, I've never seen DOE release anything, especially firearms related to the public. They generally destroy stuff, if they cant move it at the DOE "garage sale".
Bob
Apparently they spent as much designing the "new" follower as it would have cost to just buy COTS Magpul followers for every single magazine in the system. Plus I think it took them, what, 3 years?
I've stopped underestimating the f**ked-up-ed-ness of those feather-merchants. The only truly creative things they seem conjure up are new methods with which to flim-flam people into funding them.
That follower of "theirs" is kind of like how that show "Future Weapons" should have been titled "Current Weapons," were one to judge it by the content instead of vapor-locking on that Bizarro Billy Mays they had hosting/advocating.
And,
Regarding the dust chamber tests, I thought the issue was not GI mags, but GI mags(and guns) of questionable servicability.
Regarding the new GI tan follower, perhaps we should just be happy we got a new follower:D
Bob
An interesting and worthwhile discussion, though I have to quietly wonder if we aren't just moving in circles here ...
To be sure, this is largely an exercise in minutia brought about by too much time on our hands and in internut to spin round & round in.
what I started this thread for was simply to track my changeover, things I learned along the way, etc.
While I understand some people's concern that one magazine become the defacto m4carbine.net snob mag, I think what we are finding is quite the opposite. No claim has gone un-challenged, many claimants have vaporized (hopefully off looking for the answers that the rest of us seek), and what we've arrived at is a pretty good point IMO.
People have to make up their own minds. If someone is so bothered, and swayed, by a herd mentality then that's largely on them and they probably have larger life issues than what magazines to buy. Like paper or plastic, or how many packets of ketchup go in the bag with a medium fry. ;)
I think the discussion here has been great. As much for what we've all learned as for what we have yet to learn.
And,
Regarding the dust chamber tests, I thought the issue was not GI mags, but GI mags(and guns) of questionable servicability.
While probably a separate discussion, I believe you are right, and that Colt re-created the test with guns of theirs in like condition (meaning NIB) to the new-fangled guns in the original test at an independent lab here in Florida and achieved a better (meant, lower) failure rate than the challengers did in the original test.
snackgunner
05-17-11, 10:57
I wish we had spend some more time on the D & H vs. NHMTG.
I'd love to hear from people who shoot both who notice deficiencies more in one than the other.
I'm not sure you would ever get closer to an answer than anecdotal evidence on something like this.
I would also like to hear more on the D&H vs NHMTG
Rob,
Again good discussion, and, after all, isn't that what we are here for?
I think if someone uses a little intelligence, and does some research, they probably wont be to far "wrong" on their mag choice.
I believe the Army also conducted a second test, this one, with a generously lubed gun, and the results were quite better for the M4, go figure.
As my good friend often notes, "I'll worry about that, if I'm ever in a gunfight in a dust chamber".
Bob
Army Chief
05-17-11, 11:14
I think the discussion here has been great. As much for what we've all learned as for what we have yet to learn.
I'm inclined to agree. I'm just amazed that we've made it to five pages without anyone calling for a magazine chart. ;)
AC
I'm inclined to agree. I'm just amazed that we've made it to five pages without anyone calling for a magazine chart. ;)
AC
Just because you haven't seen one, doesn't mean it doesn't exist ;)
Checkmate Industries, which if I am not mistaken, are contracted to make M14 magazines.
Due to my experiences in Iraq with M9 mags from the above, I don't think that name should be used when discussing magazine quality unless you need to describe how utterly useless one is without being able to use an extremely profane response.
I have not found any difference in quality/function of all the various makes of GI mags in my use. I've never had one fail to function out of the bag/box. I've trashed many that failed but none that appeared to have any manufacturing defects, just dents or cracks from use.
One thing we seem to have lost track of here is the spring issue.
I'd still like to better understand what the commonly used materials are, how they differ, which one meets the spec, which one is "best", and which ones rust and which ones don't.
Serpico1985
05-17-11, 12:57
Maybe we could get the BCM rep who posts on this forum to come in here and shed some light on D&H mags?
While probably a separate discussion, I believe you are right, and that Colt re-created the test with guns of theirs in like condition (meaning NIB) to the new-fangled guns in the original test at an independent lab here in Florida and achieved a better (meant, lower) failure rate than the challengers did in the original test.
But the challengers were not present in the recreation.
The dust test was not valid. Some makers were able to prepare special guns possibly optimized to pass a dust test while Colt was entered with off the shelf guns, out of spec, which would have failed Colt's internal testing and would never have shipped.
Had Colt been given the same notice as the other companies, the results would likely be much different.
ffhounddog
05-17-11, 13:21
I have not had issues with Checkmate mags but I do have to say I do replace the springs of any Checkmate mag I have my my 92F. The issues ones I never had an issue but the big issue with the the mags were the spring more than anything else after a spec change that should not have happened.
You have to to look at multiple different things from Tube, spring, and follower to find out what is the issue then you move foward either replace the whole thing or replace the problem area.
CS springs are trash. They corrode badly. It was the big fad amongst the knock off mag producers to run those stupid springs for a while.
Magpul tested CS springs for the Pmag, and they failed by a HUGE margin.
well "it's just a surface coating of rust, it will rub right off with some CLP, they never take a set" :rolleyes: IMO, the average shooter is more likely to have their springs rust than for them to take a set from constant use, so i'd rather have SS springs
i fell into the Cprod trap when i left NJ and bought a bunch on sale. compare to US/Pro mag steel 10rd, i thought ANYTHING must be better. I was sadly mistaken. FTF, shitty welds, poor marlube finish, what a mess. I still have them, they're great for failure drills.
since then i've used D&H and PMAGs. I've never had an issue in any of my ARs (mostly all SBR). my best friend took a bunch of D&H mags with MP Gen II followers to Iraq. He put a lot of rounds downrange with them, gave some to one of his NCOs, and left most of them with his buddy in another unit before coming home. I'd like to find those mags and see how they held up.
But the challengers were not present in the recreation.
At the risk of taking this thread into a new direction; it doesn't really matter so long as Colt replicated the conditions of the original test.
So to sum up, people have been switching back to aluminum GI 30s because of:
- About the same reliability as PMAGs etc given a magazine tube, spring and follower in good condition
- Easier fit into magazine pouches, especially pouches that carry more than one mag per cell
- Smaller overall size feels better in the hand
- Small weight savings
- About the same cost as a bare PMAG, but with an upgraded follower and baseplate
Did I miss anything?
This is interesting to me, despite having a whole bunch of PMAGs, I've found myself using my OKAY GI 30's more often in matches, without any failures.
My questions: How does one evaluate a GI aluminum magazine? Do you discard them after a certain round count, after observed cracks, splits or other visual defects, or after having magazine related malfunctions?
Are any gear companies making bigger mag pouches to better accommodate PMAGs?
It seems to me the PMAG is more durable and rugged and should have a longer service life. Any experience to the contrary?
Two thing.
If we can end the dust-test talk here that would be great. It's a polarizing event and could easily derail what has been to date a good thread.
I'd prefer to avoid too much discussion of pmags vs GI if we can. It's another subject that can quickly derail.
Not meaning any offense to anyone, just trying to keep this on-point.
Thanks.
Doc Safari
05-17-11, 14:20
My questions: How does one evaluate a GI aluminum magazine? Do you discard them after a certain round count, after observed cracks, splits or other visual defects, or after having magazine related malfunctions?
Excellent question! I've seen well worn GI mags work fine, but their appearance would suggest they are beat.
I'm curious as well: do you toss them when you notice a definite visual defect like a cracked feed lip, or do you wait until they actually malfunction a predetermined number of times?
[QUOTE I'd prefer to avoid too much discussion of pmags vs GI if we can. It's another subject that can quickly derail.
[/LIST]
I am a tad confused though, from what are people considering moving back to GI mags?
Sees Pmags would apply here.
RAM Engineer
05-17-11, 14:41
Excellent question! I've seen well worn GI mags work fine, but their appearance would suggest they are beat.
I'm curious as well: do you toss them when you notice a definite visual defect like a cracked feed lip, or do you wait until they actually malfunction a predetermined number of times?
The military has a feed lip go/no-go gauge. I've seen pics of it in LOGSA's PS magazine, but I've never seen one commercially available.
Doc Safari
05-17-11, 14:46
The military has a feed lip go/no-go gauge. I've seen pics of it in LOGSA's PS magazine, but I've never seen one commercially available.
Here's one. It may be a commercial copy.
http://www.brownells.com/1/1/49700-ar-15-m16-magazine-feed-lip-gauge-magazine-lip-gauge-brownells.html
I am a tad confused though, from what are people considering moving back to GI mags?
Sees Pmags would apply here.
"From what" is largely irrelevant for our purposes here.
Excellent question! I've seen well worn GI mags work fine, but their appearance would suggest they are beat.
I'm curious as well: do you toss them when you notice a definite visual defect like a cracked feed lip, or do you wait until they actually malfunction a predetermined number of times?
I toss them when I see a crack. I don't wait for a malfunction.
Doc Safari
05-17-11, 15:03
I toss them when I see a crack. I don't wait for a malfunction.
I phrased that wrong. Of course you would. :D
I was getting at: do you toss the mag at some predetermined interval/number of cycles/change in appearance, or wait until it appears to have a defect or starts malfunctioning? Do you practice preventively tossing out old mags before they are definitely bad?
I think the feed lip gauge helps answer this, but is there a rule of thumb if you don't have the feed lip gauge?
Historically I have kept training mags separate from other mags. Other mags are run through a few cycles to test, loaded up with Black Hills 77 grain, and left alone.
Because of this, I run almost every magazine that I actually shoot with to failure. I see no reason not to given that these are not the magazines I would ever reach for, and given that the way they are stored I really couldn't.
Doc Safari
05-17-11, 15:18
Historically I have kept training mags separate from other mags. Other mags are run through a few cycles to test, loaded up with Black Hills 77 grain, and left alone.
Because of this, I run almost every magazine that I actually shoot with to failure. I see no reason not to given that these are not the magazines I would ever reach for, and given that the way they are stored I really couldn't.
I follow a similar regimen, although I don't store loaded mags except my everyday-use ones.
Of late, I admit I've gotten a little lazy and/or busy and haven't maintained the field testing of every new mag I buy. I just make sure I have a lot of spare mags and test one as I need to press it into service.
Lately I've become more quality conscious. I bought some of the Brownells tan mags last fall just because they were cheap and I wanted a half dozen disposable mags to test out a new rifle.
One is out of spec and fits so tightly it won't drop free without physically pulling it out of the rifle. It turns out they are the ones with CS springs also. I'll use those mags for practice until they are junk.
All my future purchases will be quality mags.
I like those instructions on that web link:
If the gauge passes through feed lips, either discard that magazine or use the Brownells Magazine Feed Lip Tool (available separately) to bring them back into specs and restore reliable feeds. If the gauge won’t pass through the lips, the gap is too narrow and must be widened.
Here's one. It may be a commercial copy.
http://www.brownells.com/1/1/49700-ar-15-m16-magazine-feed-lip-gauge-magazine-lip-gauge-brownells.html
The tan ones? With the dummy round on the opposite side? Have to wonder how much they spent developing that follower when there was an existing known performer on the commercial market they could have simply purchased outright or worked with the manufacturer to improve if it was somehow lacking. No, instead they start from scratch.
:jester:
NIH... "Not Invented Here" syndrome.
As for Brownells mags... I have good luck with them. A couple dozen or so in circulation as training or loaner mags.
Not to take this off course of a very interesting thread, but isn't the "paint" actually zinc chromate?
No. Today, we use a two part epoxy paint to prime aircraft structure parts. On the 737, we mostly use two types- a fluid resistant type in areas that may be exposed to hydraulic fluid, oil or fuel and impact primer which is normally used on the exterior before applying decorative paint.
I'm not sure what exactly zinc chromate is, but it's not nearly as durable as the epoxy primer and it's pretty much obsolete.
I don't pretend to be an expert on AR magazines, but I can recall that they have been a source of fierce debate since the adoption of the original M16. I cannot count how many times I've read articles citing the experts criticizing the magazine as being the weak link with fragile feed lips and easily dented aluminum bodies.
It's always boiled down to the fact that a rifle is only as reliable as it's feeding system. The AR isn't the only rifle that will choke on a poor quality or worn or out of spec magazine.
I'm glad this thread came about. It shows that while the P-Mags are properly sorted out and work well, a properly sorted out GI mag works as well and still has it's advantages
I phrased that wrong. Of course you would. :D
I was getting at: do you toss the mag at some predetermined interval/number of cycles/change in appearance, or wait until it appears to have a defect or starts malfunctioning? Do you practice preventively tossing out old mags before they are definitely bad?
I think the feed lip gauge helps answer this, but is there a rule of thumb if you don't have the feed lip gauge?
I shoot them until failure which includes failing to lock bolt back, failing to drop free, jamming, coming apart at the weld seam, cracking feed lips, or broken floorplate tabs.
I will then get rid of them. I can usually dump junk mags on gunbroker for $4 a piece with a clear statement that they are junk and somebody will scavenge them. They live in a ban state and are desperate or are using them for a non working prop / display.
I only keep one or two malfunctioning mags on had to practice malfunction clearing.
Everything else gets purged and I don't buy into the concept of "range" mags that have reliability issues.
All the mags in my collection can be put into front line service if need be.
....
My questions: How does one evaluate a GI aluminum magazine? Do you discard them after a certain round count, after observed cracks, splits or other visual defects, or after having magazine related malfunctions?
.....
=================================
As a simple function test, I test every magazine with 30-rounds to see if it functions OK. If it functions OK, I use a Sharpie to put a check mark on both sides. If it is a new mag, I put the month/year on it too. If it is a refurb, it just gets a check mark.
If I buy used mags, I change out the spring and put a "zig-zag" (stacked Z's) mark on it indicating it has had the spring replaced.
If the mag ever causes a malfunction, I put an "X" on it and do a basic inspection. If a mag gets two "X's" I take it apart and look for a problem. If I don't see a problem (dirt, debris, cracks, dents, etc.), it gets X's in several places meaning it is a mag for malfunction drills.
But maybe it's just me...
.
ffhounddog
05-17-11, 18:57
Here are the pictures i promised of the new mag next to a magazine with gen2 magpul.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c68/ffhounddog/IMG_20110517_183629.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c68/ffhounddog/IMG_20110517_183646.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c68/ffhounddog/IMG_20110517_183741.jpg
Here are the pictures i promised of the new mag next to a magazine with gen2 magpul.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c68/ffhounddog/IMG_20110517_183629.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c68/ffhounddog/IMG_20110517_183646.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c68/ffhounddog/IMG_20110517_183741.jpg
==========================================
When you say, "new mag..." you are meaning the new USGI mag? If so, I thought the new USGI follower was tan? That follower looks like the C-Products follower...?
But maybe it's just me...
.
.
im running a few colt 20 rounder from the 70's
ffhounddog
05-17-11, 19:13
==========================================
When you say, "new mag..." you are meaning the new USGI mag? If so, I thought the new USGI follower was tan? That follower looks like the C-Products follower...?
But maybe it's just me...
.
.
No the follower is the new one. We just got 1000 of them in and most went over seas with the guys. This was one that I found in the S4 office when I got back from mine after they left. That is the new mag.
I recently picked up a shit ton of Colt 30 rounders from DOE where they had fired 60 rounds through each mag for function check then stored. I paid $8 per mag. Needless to say I stocked up.
I was gonna call BS on someone spending $30 on ammo to sell a mag for $8 but then I noticed it was our gubbmint!
Dennis.
Something else I'll be looking at is a better way of marking my GI mags. In digging out a lot of these old ones I see where I marked them with Sharpie and while still visible many are very faded. The Sharpie works ok on Pmags because the ribs reduce the amount of rubbing on the writing, but the GI mags rub together a lot more and wear off the marker.
I don't want to get into stickers as I think that's a whole 'nother thing to get bound up.
Anyone with suggestions on this, I'm all ears. It does not have to be pretty by any means, it just has to be durable and visible.
I mark my mags with a newish (still fine tipped) Sharpie "inside the ribs" so it doesn't rub off. A bit harder, and requires almost a preschool technique, but it works.
I actually just started breaking out my USGI mags again after using them to diagnose a function issue. I then added them back into my usage rotation just because there was no good reason not to. I probably have 150+ GI mags of all types from the ban days that almost all got the following treatment: (except for the nicely bagged ones I can't bring myself to open!)
- Checked for bolt lock and drop free-ness.
- Cleaned and feed lips inspected.
- A spray of dry lube inside if not already Teflon coated.
- Wolfe SS extra power spring (Bought in bulk from their website)
- Magpul follower
- Ranger Plate
Then every time they are used successfully (28 rounds), I put a dot inside the rib. After a mag gets more than 4+ dots it is eligible to be loaded up with good ammo and put into one of my various ready-to-go loadouts. It has taken more than a few years but almost all the mags have at least 3 dots on them. Many have a lot more. I use the same dot system with my 30+ Pmags as well.
I don't number my mags but I keep a Sharpie in all my chest rigs and mark any mags that have issues and check them later or toss them.
I have found that Colt/Labelle and some older teflon coated Bushmaster/DPMS are the nicest overall looking mags. However, all the other ones work just fine after I upgrade them so I stopped discriminating.
Having lots of mags I know work = :D
Dennis.
I drank the kool aid and was all Pmag all the time. I had about 10 or 12 USGI mags that I put gen II Magpul followers in that sat unused in a box. Last September I transitioned back to USGI mags 90% of the time once I found out that I was having problems indexing issued USGI mags. Currently I have a mix of NHMTG, OKAY, and D&H mags with gen II or III Magpul followers and CS springs.
Moose-Knuckle
05-17-11, 20:27
Wow, 11 pages. . .
I never quit using GI mags. I have PMAGs, EMAGs, Lancers, Thermolds, Orlites, and so on but have always retained my "pre-ban" LaBelles as my go to mags.
The ten mags I keep at the ready have Wolff springs, Magpul gen II followers, and Ranger plates. I have many more USGI "pre-ban" mags and never had a problem with any of them.
ffhounddog
05-17-11, 20:40
That yellow/tanish follower with the fake bullet is the new one they designed.
the orange one is in a CProducts mag with a gen2 magpul. I just grabed that one because I had it out.
I was told once why they moved the round to the other side but I cannot remember what they said.
I would take it apart right now just have a girl in my bed right now so I have to take care of some fun.
Here are the pictures i promised of the new mag next to a magazine with gen2 magpul.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c68/ffhounddog/IMG_20110517_183629.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c68/ffhounddog/IMG_20110517_183646.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c68/ffhounddog/IMG_20110517_183741.jpg
Great thread. Lot'sa learning....
Hey Rob,
Who are the two different manufacturers of the magazines in your picture #3?
Thanks,
gb
Great thread. Lot'sa learning....
Hey Rob,
Who are the two different manufacturers of the magazines in your picture #3?
Thanks,
gb
NHMTG withe green follower, C-products with orange.
I like those instructions on that web link:
If the gauge passes through feed lips, either discard that magazine or use the Brownells Magazine Feed Lip Tool (available separately) to bring them back into specs and restore reliable feeds. If the gauge won’t pass through the lips, the gap is too narrow and must be widened.
The instructions on the web site are correct. The go/no go gauge will not pass between "in spec" feed lips. Just like a go/no go head space gauge will not allow an "in spec" bolt to close.
It's my understanding that it's the spreading of the feed lips that causes double feeds and some other magazine related failures.
EDUB
Body
Floorplate
Spring
Follower
It occurs to me that I'm replacing 50% of the components in the magazine. I do understand that I can get the magazines with the Magpul follower already installed, but the follower is not the hi-viz color I prefer and they are actually more expensive than simply buying the followers separately.
However, what I'm wondering is if there is a way/place for me to buy just the body and the spring and if so would it save any money? I'm pretty sure those two parts are the least expensive parts of the assembly, but even if it saved $2/mag that would pay for the follower I'm using.
knoxtnshooter
05-18-11, 08:48
This is what my unit is issuing...
http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6cd8cd5-cd02-25c7.jpg
Only markings on this magazine is "12238" then "12 09" below it. The stamp is perpendicular to the spine.
http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6cd8cd5-cd4b-7c20.jpg
This one is identical aside from the stamp.
http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6cd8cd5-cddc-ba38.jpg
Anyone know who these are coming from? They have a completely blank floorplate and the tan follower. They seem to work great, although I'm not used to the dummy round being opposite the way my magpul followers are.
Anyone know who these are coming from? They have a completely blank floorplate and the tan follower. They seem to work great, although I'm not used to the dummy round being opposite the way my magpul followers are.
A Bing search says Brownells.
https://www.brownells.com/aspx/general/gsa.aspx
I guess that supports the claim that Brownells is producing issued mags then, especially if they have the tan follower in them.
The question then becomes, how do we know that the magazines you buy online are the same as the issued ones, especially given that we know at least one feature (the follower) is different?
And speaking of that follower, I wonder how that works. Presumably the .gov patented the follower and they are probably a sole-source item that anyone making issue mags has to buy from that sole source. By the fact that we're not seeing any appear in commercial mags would seem to indicate to me that either they are so consumed with using them for the .gov that there aren't any left, or there is some kind of prohibition against same, or the retailers believe the existing options are better and the new GI followers wouldn't sell.
ETA:
AND, related to all of this, I'd still like to hear more about springs. Since Brownells only offers SS and CS though their website, and no "piano wire", but is evidently a GSA supplier...
According to Brownells they are prohibited from selling magazines with the tan followers to anyone but the military.
Serpico1985
05-18-11, 09:43
Any objective info on how the magpul followers compare to the green gi's or the new tan one's? Un-scientific gut reaction from looking at a magpul, green gi, and tan gi is that the magpul is suprerior if for no other reason it looks more advanced and modern.
Here's a good quick way to check out new mags - load 4, shoot to lock back, repeat...
TECHNICAL NOTE 41: FIELD TESTING OF M-16 RIFLE MAGAZINES (http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech%20Notes%5CTech%20Note%2041,%20Field%20Testing%20of%20M-16%20Rifle%20Magazines%20030205%E2%80%A6.pdf), armalite.com/
Well, thanks Rob....thanks a lot there bud.......
For 20 years, the biggest concern was to just put back a magazine or two every gunshow. Not really paying that much attention to them, other than to keep the pile growing. Starting before the ban years and following through, just trhowing then in the pile:
http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/clastac/magazines001.jpg?t=1305734281
Good mags, bad mags, old mags, new mags:
http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/clastac/magazines002.jpg?t=1305734280
And I agree, when you come across one with one of these stamps, it makes the little hair stand up just a bit(sorry for the crappy pic):
http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/clastac/magazines004.jpg?t=1305734280
Now, you have me wondering about the good and the bad, what makes them one or the other, the differences in manufaturers, and will a good spring and follower make up for the sins of a bad body design/rough life:
http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/clastac/magazines005.jpg?t=1305734280
http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/clastac/magazines006.jpg?t=1305734280
Sigh....Now that I think about it, it is time to pay the long overdue attention and dig in. Good thing it's gonna be a rainny weekend. Thanks dude......
gb
Here's one. It may be a commercial copy.
http://www.brownells.com/1/1/49700-ar-15-m16-magazine-feed-lip-gauge-magazine-lip-gauge-brownells.html
I like those instructions on that web link:
If the gauge passes through feed lips, either discard that magazine or use the Brownells Magazine Feed Lip Tool (available separately) to bring them back into specs and restore reliable feeds. If the gauge won’t pass through the lips, the gap is too narrow and must be widened.
And it can be yours for the low, low price of 59.99! Be sure to order the companion tool (Brownells Magazine Feed Lip Tool) for only an additional 12.99. Such a deal!
:eek:
According to Brownells they are prohibited from selling magazines with the tan followers to anyone but the military.
FWIW, the Brownell's MIL mags are out there in spots- got a few at a gunshow last month. They so far seem really good:
http://www.advanced-armament.com/st/brownellsmag.jpg
Doc Safari
05-18-11, 11:41
FWIW, the Brownell's MIL mags are out there in spots- got a few at a gunshow last month. They so far seem really good:
http://www.advanced-armament.com/st/brownellsmag.jpg
And what's so special about the tan follower again? It does not resemble the angled hump of the MagPul follower. Or is the difference underneath?
Fire_Medic
05-18-11, 11:43
PLEASE link to where 44mag offers them less than $18.99/per mag for Colt's--I do not have a LE/Mil account set up with them (yet?) and so far I only see wholesale acct offerings after a cursory look..
Here you go:
http://www.44mag.com/product/colt_30_ar15_magazine/colt
FWIW, the Brownell's MIL mags are out there in spots- got a few at a gunshow last month. They so far seem really good:
Unless things have changed a rep from Brownells on the radio stated that any magazines found at gun shows with the new followers are stolen government property. IIRC they won’t ever sell them to police departments.
Unless things have changed a rep from Brownells on the radio stated that any magazines found at gun shows with the new followers are stolen government property. IIRC they won’t ever sell them to police departments.
That is certainly a possibility, but a couple [normally] reputable dealers had them at the last show.
Doc Safari
05-18-11, 13:01
That is certainly a possibility, but a couple [normally] reputable dealers had them at the last show.
Don't discount the possibility that some unscrupulous manufacturer might mold some followers with tan plastic and claim they are the real thing.
This is what my unit is issuing...
http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6cd8cd5-cd02-25c7.jpg
Only markings on this magazine is "12238" then "12 09" below it. The stamp is perpendicular to the spine.
http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6cd8cd5-cd4b-7c20.jpg
This one is identical aside from the stamp.
http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6cd8cd5-cddc-ba38.jpg
Anyone know who these are coming from? They have a completely blank floorplate and the tan follower. They seem to work great, although I'm not used to the dummy round being opposite the way my magpul followers are.
Cage code 6P199 is Center Industries
Cade code 12238 is Brownells
Here you go:
http://www.44mag.com/product/colt_30_ar15_magazine/colt
Must be something wrong on my end--I'm still seeing those at that site for $18.99/each as of 18MAY11..............
Fire_Medic
05-18-11, 13:38
Must be something wrong on my end--I'm still seeing those at that site for $18.99/each as of 18MAY11..............
My mistake I misread where you said "less than" $18.99 and took it as $18.99 because elsewhere it was posted as $22.99.
My apologies.....:jester:
Magic_Salad0892
05-18-11, 13:49
Does the difference between ''not in spec'' USGI magazines and true USGI magazines come from materials, assembly, or they way it was manufactured? (IE: Body thickness, etc.)
SWATcop556
05-18-11, 13:54
Does the difference between ''not in spec'' USGI magazines and true USGI magazines come from materials, assembly, or they way it was manufactured? (IE: Body thickness, etc.)
I don't think that's been answered and is still up for debate.
Magic_Salad0892
05-18-11, 14:03
I don't think that's been answered and is still up for debate.
I knew it hadn't been answered, in this thread, but some posters were talking like it had been answered somewhere else, and they knew, and apparently we were over it.
Thought I'd missed something.
Failure2Stop
05-18-11, 14:07
My local PX sells the Brownells mags (identical to the issued ones) for around $10. I picked up several a while ago.
They still don't like 30 rounds, and work better down-loaded, like every other aluminum mag I have ever used. Other than a different colored follower and opposite side counting, they work the same as every other aluminum mag I have ever used as well.
I am not a fan of 28 round magazines, but I will probably continue to buy them two at a time and "fix" them as I find the motivation to do so.
Mostly they sit on a corner of my shelf for me to hate at when I run out of things that piss me off.
44mag.com has NHMTG with green followers. I just bought 30 of them and will be buying at least another 20. Are they just old stock or something?
Old stock. I just confirmed that all new manufactured NHMTG magazines will have Magpul followers.
I emailed Brownells and this was there response.
James,
Early on we received reports of a counterfeit tan follower used in some look-alike magazines. These have not been released for sale to the general public at this time and we do not sell them except to military contract holders.
Monty Crain
Gunsmith Support Supervisor
I have a couple of the Brownell's magazines and they were available straight from Brownell's for awhile. I can load 30 rounds in them and they easily seat so loaded while the bolt is closed.
During the ban, as the story goes, the .gov asked a company to develop an improved AR magazine. After the work was done, the .gov decided to not use it and the company was stuck with a design they couldn't use and lost a lot of money. Later, the .gov again went looking for a company to develop a new and/or improved magazine. This time, no one would take them up on it because it could not be sold on the commercial market. I don't remember where I heard/read the story so it may be an urban legend. Interesting if true, though. Maybe that's why the .gov developed their own follower
My mistake I misread where you said "less than" $18.99 and took it as $18.99 because elsewhere it was posted as $22.99.
My apologies.....:jester:
No sweat, man...Thanks..
Hey guys, does anyone know or have access to the spec for USGI magazine springs?? I'm very curious as to what it is..
urbankaos04
05-18-11, 15:11
I called Brownells today and spoke to both of the gun techs that were working today. I asked them for information about their magazines, specifically if they are following the mil-spec for the springs and whether the springs available via the site are the same as being used in the military contract magazines.
The first gentleman I spoke with didn't know how to answer my question when asked if their springs are made to the mil-spec standard. He stated that he felt that their chrome silicone spring was better because it resisted "setting" better due to the type of "spring steel" its made from. He was a little resistant to my attempts to explain the need to follow a minimum spec and couldn't tell me to what spec their springs are made to.
I called a little while later and spoke to the second tech available. He promptly informed me that the springs available on the site are the SAME springs being used for their mil contract magazines. He went on to state that their springs are made to mil-spec requirements they were given. The tech stated that the only difference between the mags they sell on the site and the ones they are making for the military are the followers as this is for the mil only. Thus tech sounded way more informed and confident about the information he was giving me. He also stated that the mil contract mags use their SS mag springs.
The above is of great interest to me as I have a lot of magazines that I need to put new springs into, and want to make sure that the springs I buy are properly made.
El Pistolero
05-18-11, 15:30
And what's so special about the tan follower again? It does not resemble the angled hump of the MagPul follower. Or is the difference underneath?
IIRC they pretty much copied the MagPul design but then changed the angled hump to a fake cartridge shape and moved it to the opposite side to make it different enough to not pay MagPul for the design or infringe on their patents. Anyone have more accurate information? Why they didn't just buy MagPul followers is beyond me.
Specifically, what are the differences in the parts used? I'm willing to buy into the concept, christ that was the whole genesis of the chart, but we're talking in circles now.
At least you drilled down some, so we're getting somewhere as you appear to have eliminated the floorplate and the follower from the equation. Safe to assume, then, that the floorplate doesn't matter and the follower is the same across type (green:green, Magpul:Magpul)?
What is the makeup of the NHMTG spring, and what is the makeup of the D&H spring, and how is one better than the other and what are the risks of having the "wrong" spring?
What is the makeup of the NHMTG body, and what is the makeup of the D&H body, and how is one better than the other and what are the risks of having the "wrong" body?
and please don't make this out to be trying to justify one thing over another. I'm already resolved to store my D&H (assuming I find all of them) and am building my new mags on NHMTG bodies, but I'd like to know more about this and I think others would too.
Pat Rogers says "those who are not required to hold to a standard, rarely do" and I agree with this sentiment, but I want to understand more about what that means in this case.
Was D&H not once a govt. contract magazine supplier? if so, are they not producing magazines to that same spec or has the spec changed? and what about Brownells' claim to be a military magazine supplier?
D&H was successor in interest to LaBelle via General Stamping. Implying that D&H is a USGI contractor because they succeeded LaBelle who was a government contractor is disingenuous.
Does anybody really care who Brownell's has supplied? If you have a government contract you must be special right. :rolleyes:
Your point about standards is the same that I made. Unless someone is going to get samples of all the magazines and subject them to destructive testing, we will never know exactly what material the springs and bodies are made of.
That pic of the box of mags on the first page
You guys dont know what i would do to get that box :(
Damn you AWB states
urbankaos04
05-18-11, 15:57
Double tap.
And it can be yours for the low, low price of 59.99! Be sure to order the companion tool (Brownells Magazine Feed Lip Tool) for only an additional 12.99. Such a deal!
:eek:
I don't recall saying it was a good deal......
EDUB
D&H was successor in interest to LaBelle via General Stamping. Implying that D&H is a USGI contractor because they succeeded LaBelle who was a government contractor is disingenuous.
Does anybody really care who Brownell's has supplied? If you have a government contract you must be special right. :rolleyes:
Your point about standards is the same that I made. Unless someone is going to get samples of all the magazines and subject them to destructive testing, we will never know exactly what material the springs and bodies are made of.
I'm not implying, I'm asking you questions.
You have made claims, I have asked questions. You have stated that the D&H is a sub-standard magazine to the NHMTG, and I have asked, repeatedly, for you to explain to me how. It is clear from your various dodgy non-answers that you don't know, which means that your opinion is based in nothingness.
I am asking you directly to explain to me what makes the NHMTG magazine better than the D&H. I am completely open to the possibility that they are, I just want to know why. So far you haven't even told me how they are different, let alone how they are better.
I also find it odd that you and some others make an argument (such as that NHMTG is better simply because it's a govt. contracted magazine) and then refute that same argument (that Brownells must then be just as good because they are evidently a govt. contracted magazine) when it's presented against you.
If you don't know, just say it. If your opinion is based on assumption or theory, just say it.
Doc Safari
05-18-11, 16:32
Given the fact that Bravo Company sells the D & H mags and supplies them with their rifles, would it help to contact Bravo Company and ask them directly what the specs on the D & H mags are?
They might either be able to provide some answers or steer us to the people who would.
I'd hate to bother them because they are probably very busy, but they might settle this once and for all.
I have some of both mags, so I'm not defending or dismissing either.
Magic_Salad0892
05-18-11, 16:39
I have a hard time believing that just because it's a government contract item it's THE ITEM to have or whatever. No doubt Colt/OKAY/NHMTG magazines are great, maybe even the best, but the military has adopted some RETARDED shit in it's time. (ACU cammo. The Beretta M9 over the SIG. Mk. 23 (Crew served handgun))
Crow Hunter
05-18-11, 17:23
Just do what I do when I am evaluating new suppliers.
Go to their individual websites and looking at their products/services.
Quite a bit of interesting stuff.
http://www.okayind.com/index.htm
http://www.dhmetalstamping.com/
Which one do you think makes a better part?
I know which one I would pick.
Well a few weeks ago buddy gave me 25 old used GI mags. I am plan on up-dating them with new followers and springs. So who has the Best price on Magpul followers and new GI springs. 22 have the Older black follower and 3 have green ones. I test fitted all of them and did a function with 5 rounds from each. I also plan on painting them all with a lite coat of self etching primmer in grey and numbering them with a stencel and yellow paint followed by a coat of clear coat. I am only doing the lower body that is not in the mag well.
I called Brownells today and spoke to both of the gun techs that were working today. I asked them for information about their magazines, specifically if they are following the mil-spec for the springs and whether the springs available via the site are the same as being used in the military contract magazines.
The first gentleman I spoke with didn't know how to answer my question when asked if their springs are made to the mil-spec standard. He stated that he felt that their chrome silicone spring was better because it resisted "setting" better due to the type of "spring steel" its made from. He was a little resistant to my attempts to explain the need to follow a minimum spec and couldn't tell me to what spec their springs are made to.
I called a little while later and spoke to the second tech available. He promptly informed me that the springs available on the site are the SAME springs being used for their mil contract magazines. He went on to state that their springs are made to mil-spec requirements they were given. The tech stated that the only difference between the mags they sell on the site and the ones they are making for the military are the followers as this is for the mil only. Thus tech sounded way more informed and confident about the information he was giving me. He also stated that the mil contract mags use their SS mag springs.
The above is of great interest to me as I have a lot of magazines that I need to put new springs into, and want to make sure that the springs I buy are properly made.
Thank you for taking the time to make those calls. Very interesting indeed. I wonder if we can get corroboration anywhere that the SS is the spec, and I wonder if the new NHMTG with Magpul followers are all SS springs or something else?
I have a lot of magazines that I need to put new springs into, and want to make sure that the springs I buy are properly made.
Hello,
If you want the very best, most extreme duty spring that money can buy, then you'll want to purchase Ken Elmore's Famous Red Spring. http://www.specializedarmament.com/content/skins/flat/popup_issue_96.html
The Red Spring in Packs of 10 http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/MAGAZINE_SPRING_EXTREME_DUTY_RED_30RD_S_A_10_PACK-291-4.html
If you want 100% true USGI Springs, then you'll want the COLT Factory Springs. http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/MAGAZINE_SPRING_COLT_FACTORY_30RD_223_5_56MM-289-4.html
urbankaos04
05-18-11, 19:11
Reed: You're right. There's no doubt as to the quality of these springs, which the prices reflect. But, if you want quality you gotta pay for it.
urbankaos04
05-18-11, 19:59
Okay, I'm interested in the magazine spring aspect of this discussion, as I primarily have OKAY, Center and Sanchez magazine bodies, so I am not worried about the quality of the magazines I have.
I just ordered about 50 yellow Magpul followers, but have been stumped as to what direction to go in regards to the springs. Bob Reed, above, has made a point in that the SAW COLT springs will no doubt be the quality I am looking for. The Brownells springs APPEAR to be good to go as well, and sell for about $3 something. And the springs in question are SS. I also take it that the SAW COLT springs are SS as well.
At any rate, know that a part is made to some minimum spec IS important, because then, at least, there is a freaking standard to adhere to. Dialed in 1911 shooters will also understand this when you bring up magazines, as magazines are a weak point for the 1911. However, this issue has been addressed with the new BLACK CMC mags, which have a robust tube and good springs. Are they pricey? Yes, they are, but they are worth it.
So, I guess as far as mag springs go, it's either BROWNELLS or SAW COLT springs. I am working on one other source that are alledgedly USGI spec springs, but are substantially cheaper than the SAW or Brownells springs. I will update later.
Reed: You're right. There's no doubt as to the quality of these springs, which the prices reflect. But, if you want quality you gotta pay for it.
Hello,
Actually, Ken's Red Spring is the most economical choice - because you'll more than likely Never wear one out.
My brother-n-law bought some of the COLT Factory mags from SA with the Red Springs installed, and those Red Springs are Amazing!
urbankaos04
05-18-11, 20:30
You have a point there. And this is an example of a design exceeding the mil-spec. Nice.
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