Would you trust Black Hills remanufactured ammo as a defensive load?

[GrandPooba]

Seeing as how I am in MA, it is very hard to find good defensive ammo since almost all online retailers don't ship here and most of our gun stores have a pretty small selection.

My defensive load for my AR is .223 69gr SMK loads from Black Hills (remanufactured), not factory fresh.

I know Black Hills is a top notch brand, but would you trust reloaded ammo for defensive use? At least from some initial research I've done, Black Hills uses the same components in their remanufactured line as their factory line, with the exception of the brass. Any concerns?

[fyr4efct]

That's a match load, so there's no crimp on the bullet to prevent setback or a cannelure to help with fragmentation.

Setback is not likely to happen, but for defensive ammo, your risk tolerance should be zero.

[GrandPooba]

is 69gr SMK without a cannelure still better than XM193?

[bernieb90]

is 69gr SMK without a cannelure still better than XM193?

Yes it is. Match bullets have very thin jackets so a cannelure adds very little to their ability to fragment.

Black Hills also makes a 68gr load using a Hornady OTM that has very similar terminal performance, but also has a cannelure (at least the ones I have). You might want to take a look at that load, and see if it shoots well in your rifle.

You can use Blue Box for practice, and use red box for the real stuff (after verifying function of course). I have seen a few failures to fire with Blue Box, but never with Red Box ammo.

[Raven Armament]

That's a match load, so there's no crimp on the bullet to prevent setback or a cannelure to help with fragmentation.

Crimp in auto pistol cartridges does not have anything to do with setback in a manner which many think. The proper bullet tension is set with the sizing die. The crimp flattens the case against the bullet shank.

[Submariner]

Isn't the concern with using re-manufactured Black Hills ammo for social purposes that of increased probability, however slight, of catastrophic case separation of a case previously fired through an M249 SAW with improper head space?

This is not nearly as likely with virgin brass.

Found it! OP, you might want to take a road trip for something new.


Originally Posted By cckw:
the thing about blue box is that some of it has been through a SAW. machine guns are very hard on Brass. Every now and then someone will post a broken piece of brass from black Hills Blue box or Ultramax and think they found a defective production run or something. This is still a statistically rare thing but If it happens you are done in a self defense situation.

I am a Blackhills fan, I have a case of red box 75 and multiple cases of blue. I use the blue for target and hunting and have the red for SHTF. i also have cheaper ammo for goofing off.

The brass that breaks in half in the chamber gives no visual clues before firing.

Originally Posted By Molon:
+1

Does anyone really want to worry about this happening during a self-defense shooting? (see pic below) When a case separates like this, the upper half of the case usually stays lodged in the chamber and when the next round tries to chamber, the weapon locks up; hard. Self defense ammunition is virgin brass ammunition – period.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/59m7eagmjk.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/54ubuav4vx.jpg

From the same thread:


Originally Posted By DocGKR:

We have shot many thousands of trouble free rounds of BH 5.56 mm red box, white box, and tan box in 1/7 twist weapons with barrels ranging from 10.5" to 20". Black Hills is currently the premier manufacturer of high performance 5.56 mm ammunition for U.S. military SOF units. Black Hills ammunition has demonstrated a superb record in OCONUS combat since the onset of the GWOT in late 2001 and has been some of the best performing 5.56 mm ammunition in our laboratory testing. Likewise, we've shot significant amounts of BH in other calibers including 6.8 mm, 7.62x51mm, .300 Win Mag, and .338 Lap Mag. Their ammo has never given us any problems.

Blue box is reloaded ammo for training--by definition, it is not going to exhibit the same quality as factory loaded new premium ammo...

[ST911]

Isn't the concern with using re-manufactured Black Hills ammo for social purposes that of increased probability, however slight, of catastrophic case separation of a case previously fired through an M249 SAW with improper head space?

This is not nearly as likely with virgin brass.

Yes.

Otherwise, I would not hesitate to use BH reman for defensive purposes. BH reman has consistently demonstrated better performance by many measures than the new product of others. I retain a good supply of it with favored bullets as contingency ammo.

[RyanB]

I would rather have blue box than most companies new ammo.

[Robb Jensen]

BH is good stuff, with that said I reserve blue box for training/competition only. I've had three casings split in half as pictured above in the last 7K of blue box I've used. Everytime it was a reloaded used .mil Lake City casing that had likely been fired through a M249.

[Jake'sDad]

Using anyone's reloads for self defense would seem to be a bad idea.

[RWK]

BH is good stuff, with that said I reserve blue box for training/competition only. I've had three casings split in half as pictured above in the last 7K of blue box I've used. Everytime it was a reloaded used .mil Lake City casing that had likely been fired through a M249.

Just pointing out that a three-in-7,000 failure rate works out to 0.042857143% ...

[markm]

Isn't the concern with using re-manufactured Black Hills ammo for social purposes that of increased probability, however slight, of catastrophic case separation

Excellent point. This isn't unique to SAW fired brass. I've had it happen on regular AR fired brass... some even once fired.

It won't hurt anything at all... but it will take your weapon out of the fight until the case neck is removed. Somtimes the round that gets jammed into the case neck will clear it.

The other concern is that BH didn't used to trim that brass. And it was terribly out of trim spec. Not sure if the ammo is still this way, but I checked several loads in the past and they were all out of spec.

BH must have a very aggressive expander ball in their equipment, because they get an ass load of stretch on their brass.

[Iraqgunz]

All hype aside, how much "defense" ammo do you need? I'm just saying that if it costs xxx per box then you may have to suck it up and spend the money for something good since you shouldn't be using it to plink with.

You may want to contact these guys who are in Massachussetts.

http://www.fourseasonsguns.com/fsg_contact.html

[Belmont31R]

I have also had a case split in half with BH BB out of a ~couple thousand rounds.



If its all I had then obviously use it but a few mags full of virgin ammo cant be beat along with function testing it in your rifle first.

[Robb Jensen]

Just pointing out that a three-in-7,000 failure rate works out to 0.042857143% ...

Or for me 3 hard stoppages in 4-5 months.....

[RWK]

Or for me 3 hard stoppages in 4-5 months.....

Stop whatever you're doing and go buy some lottery tickets because you have either incredibly bad luck or a knack for beating the odds! :laugh:

[markm]

Stop whatever you're doing and go buy some lottery tickets because you have either incredibly bad luck or a knack for beating the odds! :laugh:

Not really. If you shoot reman ammo, it's an inherent risk. No biggie for practice... but unacceptable for fighting.

[RWK]

Not really. If you shoot reman ammo, it's an inherent risk. No biggie for practice... but unacceptable for fighting.

Hey, don't shoot the messenger -- I just pointed out the numbers. A 0.042857143% chance of catastrophic failure would be perfectly acceptable to me. That's more safe than driving my car every day.

[markm]

I'm not shooting anyone. ;)

It's just that Murphy's law will trick f@ck you at the worst possible moment.

[ghettomedic]

Hey, don't shoot the messenger -- I just pointed out the numbers. A 0.042857143% chance of catastrophic failure would be perfectly acceptable to me. That's more safe than driving my car every day.

"Statistics are cold comfort after you discover that your case is the rare exception." -Jeff Cooper

[GrandPooba]

All hype aside, how much "defense" ammo do you need? I'm just saying that if it costs xxx per box then you may have to suck it up and spend the money for something good since you shouldn't be using it to plink with.

You may want to contact these guys who are in Massachussetts.

http://www.fourseasonsguns.com/fsg_contact.html

Well, I managed to find a dealer willing to ship direct to MA, so I managed to get some ammo on Doc's list.

I don't special order through four seasons as the ammo will be even more expensive (they obviously have to make a profit too).

[ppro]

I have known handgun competitors building major 9mm loads who preferred once fired brass as first firing will find a defective piece of new brass (which can and does exist on occasion) before loading heavy 9 loads.

I have never in thousands and thousands of handloaded handgun and rifle ammunition had a case seperation with once fired brass. and yes, I do load copious quantities of nato spec pressure 5.56.

So...it depends on your point of view and handloading skill etc.. even those skills of Black Hills.

But there is no general rule and it just depends . No blanket statement really applies on this.

Paul

In general, go forth and be happy with Black Hills.