View Full Version : M&P Bar-Sto Barrel from Apex Tactical preview pic
G34Shooter
05-15-11, 22:34
http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/9c4c399b.jpg
ya can't just leave me hanging like that....
The suspense is killing me.
So..... how many fingers do I need to give to test one of these?
Extremely happy to see their release coming up. It's great to see the Apex / Bar Sto names on it as well. You know Randy and company wouldn't release it unless it was a big improvement.
Am I correct to assume that these are the 9mm barrels that will address the timing / unlocking issues that affect accuracy in some guns.
G34Shooter
05-16-11, 07:28
Am I correct to assume that these are the 9mm barrels that will address the timing / unlocking issues that affect accuracy in some guns.
Correct, word is this sucker literally drives tacks.
Can't wait for a range report
goneshootin88
05-16-11, 09:54
Are there going to be any threaded options?
G34Shooter
05-16-11, 09:55
More details will be released in about 2 days :ph34r:
Only in 9mm? Any other calibers?
G34Shooter
05-16-11, 10:12
For now.
Only in 9mm? Any other calibers?
Not sure if any other calibers really need it. The .40 seems fine and the .45 has been superbly accurate in my experience.
I would be more interested to see if they will offer them for the Compact, L, as well as threaded options for all three sizes. Which I'm sure if the initial product goes well, they will.
I will be really looking forward to this news. I was thinking about a new barrel due to some of the accuracy inconsistencies. I am more accurate with a Glock, but I much prefer the ergos of my M&P. A new barrel should be the answer.
I don't suppose if anyone knows what the twist rate is on this thing... optimized for heavier or lighter rounds?
Hopefully they will supply threaded pieces.
G34Shooter
05-16-11, 12:45
I don't suppose if anyone knows what the twist rate is on this thing... optimized for heavier or lighter rounds?
Hopefully they will supply threaded pieces.
More info in 2 days like I said, but it should be a 9mm friendly 1:16 opposed to the slower 1:18.75.
mike benedict
05-16-11, 14:18
What is the price going to be on the barrel?
Cincinnatus
05-16-11, 14:51
It's a beaut! Need some test firing done? :D
What is the price going to be on the barrel?
If they are priced like their other products, I would guess between $250-300.
http://www.barsto.com/index.cfm
I will be following this one closely....
I will be following this one closely....
Same here. If the barrel shoots like he is talking about in the other thread it will be worth it. Now if only I can do my part, lol.
Great! More money to spend!
Now THAT might make me reconsider the 9mm M&P...
Eagerly awaiting report and availability.
Really hope they get around to releasing a .40 S&W shortly after the 9mm.
I'm also waiting for a range report...A new barrel is cheaper than switching to another platform..As much as I've said I would'nt put any more money into my M&P9, I'll give this some serious thought IF it delivers the goods....
ETA: Is this a drop in barrel or will this need to be fit?
Wayne Dobbs
05-16-11, 22:17
Hopefully (and probably) it will require fitting to achieve full potential. I've been waiting for a long time for this and to get my M&P9 where it needs to be on the accuracy side of things. I love the platform, but mine has been very disappointing with regard to accuracy.
Looking forward to getting this done!
MikeCLeonard
05-16-11, 22:18
Damn M&P's and their cool aftermarket parts. My M&P9 is gonna end up being worth more than my Hk's after all this Apex gear.
Apex should just build the dang things for S&W lol!
Damn M&P's and their cool aftermarket parts. My M&P9 is gonna end up being worth more than my Hk's after all this Apex gear.
Apex should just build the dang things for S&W lol!
My APEX M&P 45 does shoot and feel better than the H&K. It also holds 2 more rounds than the H&K.
More details will be released in about 2 days :ph34r:
Ya know you are worse than a 17 year old virgin leading up to Prom night :jester:
Oh yes oh yes. If they make a threaded longslide one, I may have a Storm Lake barrel up for sale shortly.
hoping for a PRO version.
redfernsoljah
05-17-11, 00:27
hmm threaded would be the beast along with a coating cannot stand silver....
Interesting, it looks like the barrel hood isnt slightly ramped like the factory barrels are. Could that be what keeps it locked-up for slightly longer???
Wayne Dobbs
05-17-11, 07:26
Interesting, it looks like the barrel hood isnt slightly ramped like the factory barrels are. Could that be what keeps it locked-up for slightly longer???
That plus I imagine there is a dimensional tweak on the lower lug assembly also. I understand that Randy has considerably increased the barrel/slide dwell time on this project.
Nice to see someone releasing a product that addresses the M&P9 accuracy issues some have ran into.
Two questions: does the M&P9c suffer from the same accuracy problem as the 9mm service model?
If so does Bar Sto plan on making a barrel for the M&P9c available at some point in time?
That plus I imagine there is a dimensional tweak on the lower lug assembly also. I understand that Randy has considerably increased the barrel/slide dwell time on this project.
Hi guys,
Wayne is spot on. Now that all the chaos bringing out the forward set sear is over, I can talk about the barrel.
It started out as an oversized blank I received from Irv. The external chamber and hood dimensions (other than some cosmetic cuts on top) are nearly identical to the Glock barrels so we ran with the same dimensions Irv uses for his M/T Glock barrels. It was the fastest way I could think of to get the project off and running.
I began cutting the bottom lug to achieve the absolute maximum slide/barrel dwell time. The prototype maintains mechanical lockup for roughly .160" of rearward slide travel. This is roughly 2x the dwell distance that a match fit 1911 has. I got the gun functional Sunday at 5:30 pm and Scott and I made a bee line to the range.
We only had enough time to shoot a few rounds at about 13 yards.
Not enough for any conclusive data, but I can tell you the the barrel shoots consistently better off hand groups than either of our 5" guns. Due to the increased dwell time, the gun's recoil impulse is as soft as our 9Ls which have heavier slides.
I am going to use .100" as my target dwell distance as I think .160" is unnecessary. My next step is to have three 5 inch barrels made from a rather expensive Krieger barrel blank. Once I am satisfied with the barrel performance, the dimension and CAD files will be sent to Irv for production.
I will provide more accuracy data as soon as it stops raining, and I can get out to the 25 and 50 yd ranges.
-Randy
Nice to see someone releasing a product that addresses the M&P9 accuracy issues some have ran into.
Two questions: does the M&P9c suffer from the same accuracy problem as the 9mm service model?
If so does Bar Sto plan on making a barrel for the M&P9c available at some point in time?
I have not heard of as many complaints regarding the 9c, mostly fs and 5" guns. That may be due to the fact that more people are shooing the longer guns in training/competition than the compacts.
Knowing Irv, he will probably make most if not all of the barrel configurations.
Including threaded versions.
-Randy
I have not heard of as many complaints regarding the 9c, mostly fs and 5" guns. That may be due to the fact that more people are shooing the longer guns in training/competition than the compacts.
Knowing Irv, he will probably make most if not all of the barrel configurations.
Including threaded versions.
-Randy
Thanks for your answer, I can't wait for the accuracy data of the new barrels.
I have not heard of as many complaints regarding the 9c, mostly fs and 5" guns. That may be due to the fact that more people are shooing the longer guns in training/competition than the compacts.
Knowing Irv, he will probably make most if not all of the barrel configurations.
Including threaded versions.
-Randy
A .40?
And while your at it, how about an extended thumb safety?:D
Bob
A .40?
And while your at it, how about an extended thumb safety?:D
Bob
Aaaaaaaaaagggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
Maybe. ;)
Aaaaaaaaaagggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
Maybe. ;)
Well which one, the .40 bar sto barrel, or the thumb safety?:D
Bob
NeoNeanderthal
05-17-11, 12:40
Or both? :D
Randy,
Any idea if these will be "drop-in", or if we will need to have you fit them for us?
And while your at it, how about an extended thumb safety?:D
That's what epoxy putty is for. Get a spare factory thumb safety and build it up, using that plumber's steel putty stuff. Seriously, try it! Even if you screw up, replacement safety levers are cheap.
BushmasterFanBoy
05-17-11, 19:13
That's what epoxy putty is for. Get a spare factory thumb safety and build it up, using that plumber's steel putty stuff. Seriously, try it! Even if you screw up, replacement safety levers are cheap.
I may or may not have had success using melted Pmag covers as supplements to existing polymer parts. :moil: Let's just say my X300 stays put now, and I know that pistol whipping solid target stands is not smart.
Randy,
Any idea if these will be "drop-in", or if we will need to have you fit them for us?
Hi Nick,
When Irv begins production, I assume he will make both a Semi-drop in and the Match/Target which requires fitting.
All of the barrels we will have in house will be Match/Target because I have found that the only way to ensure consistent lockup is to fit each barrel to the individual gun.
-Randy
All of the barrels we will have in house will be Match/Target because I have found that the only way to ensure consistent lockup is to fit each barrel to the individual gun.
-Randy
Thats good news. The KKM drop-in barrel I tried was much looser than the factory barrel. I will be standing by to send my M&P9 in to have one fitted. Thanks for the info.
Thats good news. The KKM drop-in barrel I tried was much looser than the factory barrel. I will be standing by to send my M&P9 in to have one fitted. Thanks for the info.
Thats good to know, I've been sitting here, contemplating the KKM or the Stormlake, as an interim until/if a 40 bar-sto becomes available.
You just saved me some money, of course thats just a one of...but ya gotta wonder what a "drop-in" barrel can really accomplish.
Bob
Thats good to know, I've been sitting here, contemplating the KKM or the Stormlake, as an interim until/if a 40 bar-sto becomes available.
You just saved me some money, of course thats just a one of...but ya gotta wonder what a "drop-in" barrel can really accomplish.
Bob
Yeah, both myself & a co-worker ordered the KKM "Drop-In" match barrels. Both were noticeably looser in the hood area than the stock barrel.
More details will be released in about 2 days :ph34r:
Alright, its been like twice that now....WTF???:help:
G34Shooter
05-19-11, 21:27
Alright, its been like twice that now....WTF???:help:
Randy came in and gave more info already, since it's in T&E right now there may not be a ton to report.
Randy came in and gave more info already, since it's in T&E right now there may not be a ton to report.
Thanks, keep us posted. Im not ashamed to say that this project has given me a major boner! I had been contemplating switching to a G17 for the last few months. Even though this barrel isn't gonna be cheap, it will end up saving me money in the long run if it works as Randy thinks it will.
This is awesome news! But you guys are killing me with all this goodness. Already had a MP45 with the DAEK, my USPSA Production MP 9 pro with the CAEK (awesome) and i just ordered the j frame and FSS trigger kits.
Randy i really do feel sorry for you having to hand fit these barrels. That being said....my will be heading that way when there's a spot available.
Like to add that the KKM drop in shrank my groups over and inch at 25yrds off hand. She is at 4" groups off hand with Federal 124gr factory ammo.
Great job Randy and the Apex Team. Never been happier with a group of firearms.
Hey guys,
We ran the proto for a little bit tonite. Only about 25 rounds. One non-apex employee had the opportunity to shoot the gun, which included the forward set sear and trigger. We are still wiping the drool off the gun...
Lisa, Scott and I are preparing for the International Revolver Championship and our mad rush to get custom revolvers out to our revo shooting friends. As such, I have only limited time to begin thorough testing, at least for the next two weeks.
I will be testing the gun in our Ransom Rest with a variety of ammo and post the results. It is the only way to demonstrate repeatable mechanical accuracy.
I will be rezeroing the sights between shots since this is a service pistol, and shot to shot deviation resulting from slide to frame play must be taken into account.
-Randy
Very cool Randy!
Keep up the good work.
C4
Hey guys,
I will be testing the gun in our Ransom Rest with a variety of ammo and post the results. It is the only way to demonstrate repeatable mechanical accuracy.
I will be rezeroing the sights between shots since this is a service pistol, and shot to shot deviation resulting from slide to frame play must be taken into account.
Please run the same gun with the procedure except with a stock barrel and post the results side by side.
Thanks for the update. Ok so do we have an guesstimate as to how much this might cost? Gonna have to start saving pennies and having a ballpark goal would be a great aid.
Bar-Sto usually charges $215.00 for the FS or Compact barrels. The 5" may cost more, but I'm not sure. I know that the 6" barrels cost more...
Randy,
Is it safe to say these won't be available in-time for my b-day in 3 weeks?
Im tryin to figure out what to ask the wife for as my b-day gift ;)
Randy,
Is it safe to say these won't be available in-time for my b-day in 3 weeks?
Im tryin to figure out what to ask the wife for as my b-day gift ;)
I wish I could. I think we would be out of stock by the time your b-day candles were blown out on your cake.
But soon...
-Randy
threeheadeddog
05-26-11, 19:28
Are these going to have a tighter "match" type chamber? Bar-sto barrels are generally tight and while fine for comp use I would prefer something that I didnt have to pre chamber check my ammo through before using on a defensive gun.
If someone was to order from you would it be possible to get one with a looser chamber that would be well suited to defensive use?
Are these going to have a tighter "match" type chamber? Bar-sto barrels are generally tight and while fine for comp use I would prefer something that I didnt have to pre chamber check my ammo through before using on a defensive gun.
If someone was to order from you would it be possible to get one with a looser chamber that would be well suited to defensive use?
Any time I fit a barrel, I ream the chambers with a SAAMI spec chamber finishing reamer.
Since the barrels from us will be gunsmith fit, the chambers will be left for the gunsmith to finish ream to their preference of chamber dimensions.
Irv will most likely be offering a semi-drop in barrel, but I don't know if the barrel dimensions on the SDIs are any different than the M/T barrels we will be receiving.
-Randy
threeheadeddog
05-26-11, 19:48
Any time I fit a barrel, I ream the chambers with a SAAMI spec chamber finishing reamer.
Since the barrels from us will be gunsmith fit, the chambers will be left for the gunsmith to finish ream to their preference of chamber dimensions.
Irv will most likely be offering a semi-drop in barrel, but I don't know if the barrel dimensions on the SDIs are any different than the M/T barrels we will be receiving.
-Randy
Well, that pretty much ends my worries. Now to decide if I want to get a new M&P and have it done up or to do one of mine.
Bar-Sto usually charges $215.00 for the FS or Compact barrels. The 5" may cost more, but I'm not sure. I know that the 6" barrels cost more...
Any idea what we're looking at for the gunsmith fit from Apex?
LanceOregon
05-26-11, 23:11
Any time I fit a barrel, I ream the chambers with a SAAMI spec chamber finishing reamer.
Since the barrels from us will be gunsmith fit, the chambers will be left for the gunsmith to finish ream to their preference of chamber dimensions.
Irv will most likely be offering a semi-drop in barrel, but I don't know if the barrel dimensions on the SDIs are any different than the M/T barrels we will be receiving.
-Randy
I must admit to being quite confused by this thread.
Will these M&P barrels be exclusive to Apex Tactical, or will Bar-Sto also offer them at some point? It sounds like you are saying that that Apex Tactical will not be selling any drop-in barrels, and that your barrels will have to be hand-fit by you. But that Bar-Sto might at some point offer them as a drop-in product?
So the initial plan is to just release the M&P barrel in 9mm, and not any other caliber?
.
[QUOTE=LanceOregon;1008557]I must admit to being quite confused by this thread.
Will these M&P barrels be exclusive to Apex Tactical, or will Bar-Sto also offer them at some point? It sounds like you are saying that that Apex Tactical will not be selling any drop-in barrels, and that your barrels will have to be hand-fit by you. But that Bar-Sto might at some point offer them as a drop-in product?
So the initial plan is to just release the M&P barrel in 9mm, and not any other caliber?
.[QUOTE]
I apologize for the confusion. Bar-Sto will be making the barrels. They offer 2 versions on their website. The first is called semi-drop in while the other is called match/target.
Semi-drop in barrels sometimes require minor fitting because the engagement surfaces are made on the larger end of the dimension specification for the particular design. This is true of any SDI barrel Bar-Sto sells, be it 1911,Glock or SIG, etc.
Match/Target barrels are oversized in all the critical engagement surfaces so that the gunsmith can compensate for individual slide to frame variations. For myself this is the only way to ensure optimal accuracy from a barrel. It is the match/target version that we will sell and install in our shop.
We will most likely be purchasing the first 50 barrels of the production run in 9mm for the 4.25 and 5" guns as the 9mm seems to have the greatest problem with accuracy.
Bar-Sto will most likely make the other calibers as well.
-Randy
I would like to be among those 50 barrels for a 5 inch 9. Let me know what I need to do.
Put me down for one of the first 50 4.25" barrels in 9mm :D. Would we need to send you the whole gun or just the slide assembly for fitting when these become available?
LanceOregon
05-29-11, 01:36
[QUOTE=LanceOregon;1008557]I must admit to being quite confused by this thread.
Will these M&P barrels be exclusive to Apex Tactical, or will Bar-Sto also offer them at some point? It sounds like you are saying that that Apex Tactical will not be selling any drop-in barrels, and that your barrels will have to be hand-fit by you. But that Bar-Sto might at some point offer them as a drop-in product?
So the initial plan is to just release the M&P barrel in 9mm, and not any other caliber?
.[QUOTE]
I apologize for the confusion. Bar-Sto will be making the barrels. They offer 2 versions on their website. The first is called semi-drop in while the other is called match/target.
Semi-drop in barrels sometimes require minor fitting because the engagement surfaces are made on the larger end of the dimension specification for the particular design. This is true of any SDI barrel Bar-Sto sells, be it 1911,Glock or SIG, etc.
Match/Target barrels are oversized in all the critical engagement surfaces so that the gunsmith can compensate for individual slide to frame variations. For myself this is the only way to ensure optimal accuracy from a barrel. It is the match/target version that we will sell and install in our shop.
We will most likely be purchasing the first 50 barrels of the production run in 9mm for the 4.25 and 5" guns as the 9mm seems to have the greatest problem with accuracy.
Bar-Sto will most likely make the other calibers as well.
-Randy
Thanks much Randy for clarifying everything.
I'm very glad to hear that Bar-Sto is going to be making barrels for the M&P. They have always made a high quality product. I sent my SIG P220, and had a match target barrel installed by them some years ago. It functions and shoots just great. It looks awesome too, as one can see in this photo I took:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/p220_onilne.jpg
So since I am already a satisfied Bar-Sto customer, I would be interested in getting a barrel for my full size M&P 40 when they become available. If you end up offering installation for the match target barrels in .40 S&W, I would be interested in sending my M&P in to you, as I could also have you upgrade the trigger as well.
I'll wait and see and hope that Bar-Sto and you will end up supporting the .40 S&W in the not too distant future.
.
Hi Lance,
I'm pretty sure Irv will make all the different calibers and barrel lengths. Once he has the lug geometry pattern, the rest is a matter of scaling the hood/exterior chamber area to fit the slide.
The fitting procedure will be the same as our fitting a Glock M/T barrel which we are fully set up to do.
-Randy
Randy,
Before i have two of these barrels fitted to my pistols, do you have any plans of producing an Apex Tactical slide assembly for the M&P 9/40 FS guns ? Also any new updates on the Apex rear sight and mag base plates ?
Randy,
Before i have two of these barrels fitted to my pistols, do you have any plans of producing an Apex Tactical slide assembly for the M&P 9/40 FS guns ? Also any new updates on the Apex rear sight and mag base plates ?
Hi Biggy,
Our plan is to have new everything...or in a nutshell you buy the frame, and everything else is Apex. :)
The rear sight took a back seat to the forward set sear and trigger, a new RAM,
the barrel project, and a few more ideas Scott and I are planning.
We hope to release the new rear sight sometime around the first of the year.
There are several improvements I would like to implement that would require a new slide design and trigger bar/sear system/sear block. I am waiting for Smith to finalize their design changes that they are currently phasing in before I continue with my version. With any luck the first phase of this project will be shown and run at the 2012 Bianchi Cup. A 5" Pro and 9L that deliver 1.5" @50 yds. or better.
outrider627
05-29-11, 15:06
I am waiting for Smith to finalize their design changes that they are currently phasing in before I continue with my version.
Can you expand on this? What sort of changes are S&W implementing? I'm looking into getting an M&P and I hate buying things right before a product update. Please PM me if you can't give details on an open forum.
Can you expand on this? What sort of changes are S&W implementing? I'm looking into getting an M&P and I hate buying things right before a product update. Please PM me if you can't give details on an open forum.
Smith is streamlining their production process. The newest frames for the 9/40 are using the same mold that is used for the thumb safety versions. This means they have a single frame which can be set up for thumb safeties or non TS simply by adding or removing the filler pads (or thumb safety levers) as seen on the 45 guns. They are also using the same sear blocks that the thumb safety guns are using.
While this streamlining makes a lot of sense, this means that our current RAM cannot be used since there is no longer a hole running through the sear housing block.
Once I know that their frame production has stabilized and the molds for the frames are not going to change, I can move forward with dimensioning my new sear blocks and locking blocks.
The M&P is in for a radical change within the next 2 years. :)
Oh, and a .22 conversion...:eek:
Randy, since you mentioned that there is no hole running through the sear housing block and cannot use the RAM, do you think S&W may be creating something similiar to the RAM to fix the lack of audible and felt reset people complain about the pistol?
Randy, since you mentioned that there is no hole running through the sear housing block and cannot use the RAM, do you think S&W may be creating something similiar to the RAM to fix the lack of audible and felt reset people complain about the pistol?
I believe that they are. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.
-Randy
Randy,
Those changes don't seem all the "radical" to me, anything else?
Bob
Randy,
Those changes don't seem all the "radical" to me, anything else?
Bob
Hi Bob,
Actually, I was referring to our new slides, trigger bars and newly designed sear block system. These parts will be very different from what you see in your present gun.
There are several things about the M&P fire control/operating system that I don't like. So rather than try to come up with "patches" for the existing system, I am making an entirely new system.
For example; I don't like the fact that the striker block is retained by the rear sight. So our slides will allow you to remove them without having to touch your sight.
-Randy
Robb Jensen
05-30-11, 10:10
Very cool Randy, I had no idea that you planned on making all that. Nice things to come for sure! :D
Oh, and a .22 conversion...:eek:
Some fascinating stuff in this thread.
Are you able to expand on this point? Is S&W seriously planning a conversion slide kit that you can drop onto an existing M&P?
Some fascinating stuff in this thread.
Are you able to expand on this point? Is S&W seriously planning a conversion slide kit that you can drop onto an existing M&P?
Smith probably won't, but we plan on entering the 22 market...
-Randy
Smith probably won't, but we plan on entering the 22 market...
-Randy
You can almost hear the money being transferred from my M&P22 account to an Apex conversion account...
Smith probably won't, but we plan on entering the 22 market...
-Randy
Cool. At first I thought you meant S&W would come out with the conversion, but on 2nd thought, don't know why they would now that they've cast their bets on the standalone M&P .22 pistol clone.
I would definitely be interested in a .22 conversion slide from APEX.
I believe that they are. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.
-Randy
Clyde Armory has a new M&P for sale that has supposedly been changed by S&W to improve reset. I'm not sure what has been changed though.
We are ramping up for the International Revolver Championship this week. Starting June 6th, we will be doing more accuracy testing on the new barrel.
-Randy
Skunk Pilot
05-31-11, 03:22
Good info on the barrels. Also very interested in the .22lr conversion. Ordered the FSS and trigger on the first day it was available.
So in my mind, the .22 conversion, with a FSS kit and the competition spring for a 2lb. trigger pull would be very, very nice http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/Sb1000/Forum%20%20Pics%20%20and%20%20Gifs/Perfect10_3SmiliesHolding10Signs_d05-29-11.gif
firstimpuslse
06-01-11, 01:25
*sigh*
looks like I'm gonna have to get back on that top ramen diet....
LanceOregon
06-01-11, 04:56
Clyde Armory has a new M&P for sale that has supposedly been changed by S&W to improve reset. I'm not sure what has been changed though.
The Clyde Armory ad says that this M&P has a new trigger in it. Perhaps these guns simply have the S&W Performance Center Sear installed in them??
.
The Clyde Armory ad says that this M&P has a new trigger in it. Perhaps these guns simply have the S&W Performance Center Sear installed in them??
.
Not sure. I called them about a month ago to ask about it. The person I spoke to couldn't tell me anything and had no idea why it was "new" or different.
LanceOregon
06-01-11, 21:02
Not sure. I called them about a month ago to ask about it. The person I spoke to couldn't tell me anything and had no idea why it was "new" or different.
If they don't know anything, then call them back and ask what the Smith and Wesson SKU# is for this model. Once they give you that number off the box, then call Smith & Wesson's customer service, and they could then tell you exactly what has been done to the trigger on this model.
My feeling is that it probably has the M&P performance sear installed in it, just like the M&P 9 Pro model has. That is a nice feature for improving the trigger, and normally costs $110 to send it to the factory to have it installed on a gun.
They said that gun is a limited, special run. So they will not have it available in stock forever to sell.
.
Hi all,
I wanted to give everyone a progress report. I had a chance to shoot the Bar-Sto proto-barrel on Monday at 25 yards using 147 gr. handloads off a bench. Granted I am not the best group shooter (getting old sucks), but the gun shot a five shot group cold of 1.5". I will try and post a pic later.
We have a Ransom rest, and are awaiting the arrival of the grip panels so that we can take my pre coffee jitters out of the equation. I believe the Ransom will show that this barrel will shoot 1" or better at 25 yards.
Irv is sending me 2 uncut blanks that are heat treated and rifled. We have the machine programs ready to run the 2 barrels for pre-production testing. We are getting closer!
-Randy
Magic_Salad0892
07-07-11, 01:36
Hi all,
I wanted to give everyone a progress report. I had a chance to shoot the Bar-Sto proto-barrel on Monday at 25 yards using 147 gr. handloads off a bench. Granted I am not the best group shooter (getting old sucks), but the gun shot a five shot group cold of 1.5". I will try and post a pic later.
We have a Ransom rest, and are awaiting the arrival of the grip panels so that we can take my pre coffee jitters out of the equation. I believe the Ransom will show that this barrel will shoot 1" or better at 25 yards.
Irv is sending me 2 uncut blanks that are heat treated and rifled. We have the machine programs ready to run the 2 barrels for pre-production testing. We are getting closer!
-Randy
Randy.
I do not like the M&P at all, but I must say, I am extremely impressed with your work and devotion to this gun.
If S&W just sold the gun with APEX parts, and I wasn't in love with Gaston's pistol, I'd very much consider going with M&P.
Your guy's work is amazing. Please, don't ever go out of business.
Please, make Glock stuff. :p:D
Randy.
I do not like the M&P at all, but I must say, I am extremely impressed with your work and devotion to this gun.
If S&W just sold the gun with APEX parts, and I wasn't in love with Gaston's pistol, I'd very much consider going with M&P.
Your guy's work is amazing. Please, don't ever go out of business.
Please, make Glock stuff. :p:D
Thank you!
And bar stock Glock extractors are in process. :-)
-Randy
Magic_Salad0892
07-07-11, 03:48
Thank you!
And bar stock Glock extractors are in process. :-)
-Randy
Now I'm really happy... :D
Awesome Randy! I cant wait for these barrels to be ready.
Hi all,
I wanted to give everyone a progress report. I had a chance to shoot the Bar-Sto proto-barrel on Monday at 25 yards using 147 gr. handloads off a bench. Granted I am not the best group shooter (getting old sucks), but the gun shot a five shot group cold of 1.5". I will try and post a pic later.
We have a Ransom rest, and are awaiting the arrival of the grip panels so that we can take my pre coffee jitters out of the equation. I believe the Ransom will show that this barrel will shoot 1" or better at 25 yards.
Irv is sending me 2 uncut blanks that are heat treated and rifled. We have the machine programs ready to run the 2 barrels for pre-production testing. We are getting closer!
-Randy
Thanks for the update! Be sure to also clue us in on the handload specifics once you get everything tested.
RepeatDefender
07-07-11, 11:54
I can feel my wallet being pulled on already...
Wayne Dobbs
07-07-11, 14:48
I also wait in line to give Randy my credit card information for the new Bar-Sto barrel and several Glock extractors...
Any chance I can get one of those barrels for my Limited 9L by mid August? It has your new trigger/FSS and extras, slide cuts by Springer Precision, grip stippling by Boresight solutions, Dawson sights, and a custom frame duracoat by me.
I'll be using it to compete at the Rockcastle ProAm 3 Gun match. I think they filled all 500 slots for this match.
This pistol should last me for.......what did you say.....two years before all the major changes?
Any chance I can get one of those barrels for my Limited 9L by mid August? It has your new trigger/FSS and extras, slide cuts by Springer Precision, grip stippling by Boresight solutions, Dawson sights, and a custom frame duracoat by me.
I'll be using it to compete at the Rockcastle ProAm 3 Gun match. I think they filled all 500 slots for this match.
This pistol should last me for.......what did you say.....two years before all the major changes?
I'm wondering the same thing. Will these barrels be available for the 9L/Pro models?
I had the chance to shoot my factory barrel side by side with the proto barrel.
The best group I could manage off the bench with the factory FS barrel was 5.6" @ 25yds. with the same 147 gr bullet. The factory barrel would constantly throw at least one flyer.
Scott shot a sub 1/2" 3 shot group and all was pretty exciting until the bottom half of his target broke loose and the 4th shot hit the bottom edge of the flapping paper.
Hopefully the Ransom mounting plates will be here sometime next week...
-Randy
I'm wondering the same thing. Will these barrels be available for the 9L/Pro models?
I would say that is a definite yes.
LonghunterCO
07-07-11, 21:51
Thanks Randy for all your work.
-Threaded models in the fs and the .22 kits please.
Thanks Randy for all your work.
-Threaded models in the fs and the .22 kits please.
Irv will definitely be making threaded barrels.
Hopefully a .40 barrel is soon to follow, and then maybe an extended mag release, slide stop and thumb safety;)
Bob
vicious_cb
07-08-11, 04:48
I had the chance to shoot my factory barrel side by side with the proto barrel.
The best group I could manage off the bench with the factory FS barrel was 5.6" @ 25yds. with the same 147 gr bullet. The factory barrel would constantly throw at least one flyer.
Scott shot a sub 1/2" 3 shot group and all was pretty exciting until the bottom half of his target broke loose and the 4th shot hit the bottom edge of the flapping paper.
Hopefully the Ransom mounting plates will be here sometime next week...
-Randy
I can't wait. What do you think the price will be including fitting and rezeroing the sights?
brushy bill
07-09-11, 14:34
And bar stock Glock extractors are in process. :-)
-Randy
Sounds great! ETA?
I would say that is a definite yes.
Thanks for the info Randy. Can't wait until they're released.
I can't wait. What do you think the price will be including fitting and rezeroing the sights?
My best guess is that the barrels will run $215 for the FS and Compact models, and $265.00 for the 5" barrels. If you go to the Bar-Sto website, that compares to the price of the Glock barrels Irv has on his site.
We charge $150.00 to fit the barrel and ream it to median SAAMI specs. Test fire and rezero is $20.00.
As far as an eta on the Glock extractors, I don't have an accurate release date. Best guess is September.
-Randy
Magic_Salad0892
07-09-11, 16:35
As far as an eta on the Glock extractors, I don't have an accurate release date. Best guess is September.
-Randy
Whoa. That's sooner than I thought.
Whoa. That's sooner than I thought.
I wish we could get products out sooner, but we have so many projects going on at the moment that it makes my head spin.
-Randy
Robb Jensen
07-09-11, 19:42
I'm all over a Pro 5" 9mm bbl and locking and Pro .40 5" bbl and locking block!
Sorry for the hijack (sorta :smile:) the OP is cool with it though, and I figured Apex fans would like to know.
I'm the local host for an OpSpec/Apex tactical M&P Armorers course to be held in Phoenix in November. Here's a link to the thread: M&P Armorers Course (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=84321) where you can get answers and post questions about the course.
Back to our regularly scheduled program...sweet sweet Bar Sto Barrel
Randy,
What kind if time frame, roughly, are you looking at for the Bar-Sto barrel? Would fitting require me sending in the whole gun or just the slide?
Are there any logistic/legal concerns in sending a complete handgun across state lines?
Randy,
What kind if time frame, roughly, are you looking at for the Bar-Sto barrel? Would fitting require me sending in the whole gun or just the slide?
Are there any logistic/legal concerns in sending a complete handgun across state lines?
At the moment, I am hoping that Irv will have everything he needs to start producing the barrels in Mid August. From there it is how many he can make of each configuration. I hope to have at least several FS and 5" barrels in 9mm available as soon as he can get the first lot running.
Fitting will require the entire gun as the barrel is mated to both. You can ship the gun directly to us, and we can ship it back the same. It MUST be shipped overnight unless both parties have an FFL, then it can go through the USPS with proper documentation. I cannot stress how important it is to ship overnight. A friend tried to ship a pistol to another shop a week ago using ground service. Long story short, ATF now has the gun.
-Randy
Thanks for the prompt reply. I assume by overnight you mean UPS. I also think UPS has some goofy rules, or at least misinformed operators in their retail stores. I was told by a retail UPS store employee that they can't ship firearms. Granted this all came from a 16 year old girl...I would suggest anyone use one of the UPS service centers to ship any firearm with UPS.
Also, will your locking blocks be available about the same time? I'd love to get both parts, 5" Bar-Sto and locking block, in there together.
Thanks for the prompt reply. I assume by overnight you mean UPS. I also think UPS has some goofy rules, or at least misinformed operators in their retail stores. I was told by a retail UPS store employee that they can't ship firearms. Granted this all came from a 16 year old girl...I would suggest anyone use one of the UPS service centers to ship any firearm with UPS.
Also, will your locking blocks be available about the same time? I'd love to get both parts, 5" Bar-Sto and locking block, in there together.
You can definitely ship guns UPS. As you said, many employees are uninformed. We have really good people in FedEx and at UPS here. So no problems shipping stuff out.
I doubt that the locking blocks will be ready before the barrels are ready to go. The good part is that the new blocks will suck the slide down lower, so if you shoot the barrel to the point that your existing blocks wear loose, the new blocks will be like an instant tune up and retighten the barrel lockup.
Besides a big push to get Glock extractors going, the 45 and thumb safety RAM are my priority now that the FSS is up and running.
-Randy
"The UPS Store" and "FedEx/Kinko's" and other UPS and FedEx outlets like them will not ship a firearm, they need to go thru the service centers. Pretty sure its on the web site. Depending on the individual store, they will help you pack it though.
Probably better, as the less hands that contact a package known to contain a firearm the better.
Some service centers are cool with it, and will look up the FFL, I think UPS has a list of known FFL's. Others want you to produce a copy of the FFL its being sent to.
Randy,
Definitely looking forward to how you exploit the potential of the M&P.
Like I said, slightly extended controls, like the "tactical" versions of the 1911 equivalent would be awesome. Add the match barrel, Dawson sights, and some stippling from Boresite Solutions, and I'll have a great "assault pistol":D
Bob
30 cal slut
07-12-11, 11:21
Randy, are you accepting pre-orders/shipments for install?
Randy, are you accepting pre-orders/shipments for install?
Hi,
I think we will start taking orders once we have the barrels in hand. That way we do not inconvenience anyone by having them have to wait.
-Randy
I'll have my sights and FSS in my M&P 9L by the time the barrels are released, if the mid-August release holds true.
For the fitting and test shoot fee, will you guys be sending back targets of the test & zero group at 25 yards?
the 45 and thumb safety RAM are my priority now that the FSS is up and running.
-Randy
Hell YES!!!!! :smile:
brushy bill
07-12-11, 21:49
Besides a big push to get Glock extractors going, -Randy
This :D
Fire_Medic
07-31-11, 10:18
Randy will these barrels be safe for shooting lead as the other Barsto barrels are?
Thanks :)
Randy will these barrels be safe for shooting lead as the other Barsto barrels are?
Thanks :)
Absolutely!
I just wanted to pop in and give a BIG thanks to apex for all their work and dedication to improving the M&P series.
My Beretta will consistently auto forward, and I use it to my advantage.
I think with the M&P the better solution is not to, not to overdrive the mag into the gun, as opposed to extending feed ramps.
Randy,
Probably a lttle late to bring this up, but have you guys looked into extending the feedramp on the 9mm barrels? I have found on every single M&P9 fullsize that I have ever handled/shot consistently gets a fail to feed malfunction where the top round gets jammed up against the bottom of the feedramp when the magazine is seated with enough force to cause the slide to release forward or "auto forward" when using several different hollowpoint loads, including my 124gr +p bonded Winchester Ranger duty ammo.
Have you checked with S&W a out that? I have never had that issue and love how much faster my M&P's are to reload when using the 45 degree bump.
Randy,
Probably a lttle late to bring this up, but have you guys looked into extending the feedramp on the 9mm barrels? I have found on every single M&P9 fullsize that I have ever handled/shot consistently gets a fail to feed malfunction where the top round gets jammed up against the bottom of the feedramp when the magazine is seated with enough force to cause the slide to release forward or "auto forward" when using several different hollowpoint loads, including my 124gr +p bonded Winchester Ranger duty ammo.
Have you checked with S&W a out that? I have never had that issue and love how much faster my M&P's are to reload when using the 45 degree bump.
I have access to several M&P9's aside from the 3 samples that I own/have owned. I have been able to consistently replicate the same malfunction when using hollowpoint ammunition with several different samples aside from the 3 I own/owned. The malfunction does not occur with ball/fmj ammo.
Randy,
Probably a lttle late to bring this up, but have you guys looked into extending the feedramp on the 9mm barrels? I have found on every single M&P9 fullsize that I have ever handled/shot consistently gets a fail to feed malfunction where the top round gets jammed up against the bottom of the feedramp when the magazine is seated with enough force to cause the slide to release forward or "auto forward" when using several different hollowpoint loads, including my 124gr +p bonded Winchester Ranger duty ammo.
The nice thing about the new prototype is that I will be able to dial the ramp in for HP ammo...
-Randy
The nice thing about the new prototype is that I will be able to dial the ramp in for HP ammo...
-Randy
That is awesome good news Randy! Thanks for all of your efforts on the M&P platform.
G34Shooter
08-07-11, 22:39
The nice thing about the new prototype is that I will be able to dial the ramp in for HP ammo...
-Randy
When can my M&P's visit the mothership for the upgrade? You can use my FS9 for another prototype :D
When can my M&P's visit the mothership for the upgrade? You can use my FS9 for another prototype :D
You just want to play with cool stuff first.....Can't blame you.:dirol:
G34Shooter
08-08-11, 13:55
You just want to play with cool stuff first.....Can't blame you.:dirol:
Absolutely! :happy:
Randy - any updates on the new barrels? :D
Randy - any updates on the new barrels? :D
The first pre production prototype barrel for the M&P 9L/Pro
is complete! :-)
http://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/random-apex/first-shots-with-the-mp-barrel/
There are some rumblings around the interweb that our barrel is just a repackaged KKM/Storm Lake/EFK Fire Dragon barrel. This is absolutely untrue. The barrel in the pictures was machined from a Kreiger barrel blank. The locking lug dimensions are proprietary and are not a reproduction of the factory timing surfaces. The barrel stays locked in position relative to the slide for a distance of .100+ " rearward.
Irv at Bar-Sto is sending me rifled blanks to make the final version.
The question has been asked why I chose Bar-Sto to manufacture the barrels? The reason is 2 fold. First, I have never received a bad barrel from Bar-Sto. While more expensive than most other barrels, I believe the quality and consistency are worth it. The second reason is that I prefer broach cut rifling over ECM or button rifled barrels. In my experience, broach cut rifled handgun barrels produce more consistent results across a greater range of bullet choices (lead, moly coated, copper plate and copper/brass jacketed).
In speaking with Irv this morning, we hope to have the Apex/Bar-Sto barrels available for the 2012 SHOT show.
-Randy
The first pre production prototype barrel for the M&P 9L/Pro
is complete! :-)
http://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/random-apex/first-shots-with-the-mp-barrel/
There are some rumblings around the interweb that our barrel is just a repackaged KKM/Storm Lake/EFK Fire Dragon barrel. This is absolutely untrue. The barrel in the pictures was machined from a Kreiger barrel blank. The locking lug dimensions are proprietary and are not a reproduction of the factory timing surfaces. The barrel stays locked in position relative to the slide for a distance of .100+ " rearward.
Irv at Bar-Sto is sending me rifled blanks to make the final version.
The question has been asked why I chose Bar-Sto to manufacture the barrels? The reason is 2 fold. First, I have never received a bad barrel from Bar-Sto. While more expensive than most other barrels, I believe the quality and consistency are worth it. The second reason is that I prefer broach cut rifling over ECM or button rifled barrels. In my experience, broach cut rifled handgun barrels produce more consistent results across a greater range of bullet choices (lead, moly coated, copper plate and copper/brass jacketed).
In speaking with Irv this morning, we hope to have the Apex/Bar-Sto barrels available for the 2012 SHOT show.
-Randy
Thanks Randy!!!:D
G34Shooter
09-19-11, 16:34
Maybe I'll have some fun $$$ by the time it's released :D
The first pre production prototype barrel for the M&P 9L/Pro
is complete! :-)
http://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/random-apex/first-shots-with-the-mp-barrel/
There are some rumblings around the interweb that our barrel is just a repackaged KKM/Storm Lake/EFK Fire Dragon barrel. This is absolutely untrue. The barrel in the pictures was machined from a Kreiger barrel blank. The locking lug dimensions are proprietary and are not a reproduction of the factory timing surfaces. The barrel stays locked in position relative to the slide for a distance of .100+ " rearward.
Irv at Bar-Sto is sending me rifled blanks to make the final version.
The question has been asked why I chose Bar-Sto to manufacture the barrels? The reason is 2 fold. First, I have never received a bad barrel from Bar-Sto. While more expensive than most other barrels, I believe the quality and consistency are worth it. The second reason is that I prefer broach cut rifling over ECM or button rifled barrels. In my experience, broach cut rifled handgun barrels produce more consistent results across a greater range of bullet choices (lead, moly coated, copper plate and copper/brass jacketed).
In speaking with Irv this morning, we hope to have the Apex/Bar-Sto barrels available for the 2012 SHOT show.
-Randy
If someone thinks its just a repackaged barrel from another manufacturer, just show them the pics of the barrel in your mill. ;-)
Can't wait to see the final production models!
PS, why was the proto barrel green?
Great news, I can't wait to see the final product hit the shelves!
If someone thinks its just a repackaged barrel from another manufacturer, just show them the pics of the barrel in your mill. ;-)
That would be pointless though as they would come back saying it's another barrel, or it's phtoshopped or whatever else...
Ignorance can be cured but there is nothing you can do against cultivated stupidity... ;)
If someone thinks its just a repackaged barrel from another manufacturer, just show them the pics of the barrel in your mill. ;-)
Can't wait to see the final production models!
PS, why was the proto barrel green?
Hi and thanks!
The green coating was a protective layer they used for the heat treating process. The Kreiger blanks are only heat treated to 28 Rockwell. We needed to bring the hardness up to maximum for 416 stainless.
The Bar-Sto barrels will of course not be green... :p
saddlerocker
01-06-12, 22:10
Been a couple more months, any updates?
Id love to get one of these barrels.
G34Shooter
01-06-12, 22:21
Stay tuned for Shot Show :-)
The Apex/Bar-Sto barrels should be viewable at SHOT. :-)
-Randy
The Apex/Bar-Sto barrels should be viewable at SHOT. :-)
-Randy
Randy,
Can you bring one to shot that I can purchase. I think I can sell a bunch of these for you.
Randy,
Can you bring one to shot that I can purchase. I think I can sell a bunch of these for you.
Hi Doug,
We will only have the prototypes available for the show. As soon as we have then available for sale, we will post it here.
-Randy
saddlerocker
01-07-12, 15:28
Thanks for the update,
Glad their coming along
Randy,
What booth will you be at for SHOT? I checked the exhibitor list for both Apex and Bar-Sto and neither of you are listed. I'm close to biting the bullet and buying an M&P, but I haven't decided whether to go with the .45, which is accurate out of the box, or the 9mm, which requires a lot of aftermarket work to be acceptable...apparently.
Hi Doug,
We will only have the prototypes available for the show. As soon as we have then available for sale, we will post it here.
-Randy
No problem Randy, see you there. And put my name on 2 or 20 when they're ready.
Hi all,
We didn't get a booth as they were all gone by the last day of last years show.
We will be around the S&W and SW LE booths most of the time.
Bar-Sto should have a few display guns to show too. They will be located at the South Dakota state industry/business booth. We will be hovering around that booth frequently as well.
See you all there!
Randy
Fire_Medic
01-09-12, 10:09
Randy, will the barrels only be produced for the 9mm models?
Thanks
Randy, will the barrels only be produced for the 9mm models?
Thanks
No. Bar-Sto will be producing barrels in different calibers, it's just that the 9mms seem to have the most irregularities as far as accuracy is concerned.
-Randy
Hokus Grey
01-11-12, 15:43
This is great news indeed! Not sure what kind of rediculous premium I'm going to have to pay to get one of these babys up here in the Frozen North, but sounds like it's going to be well worth it. Looking forward to making my M&P be all it can be.... with a little help from you guys of course. :D
As much as I really want to love the M&P, and with all due respect to Randy and gang, I would not be willing to pay for the barrel. I know S&W seems to be doing well with winning LE contracts, but I still wish they would incorporate some of Apex's mods into their standard M&Ps, but perhaps I am expecting too much out of a service pistol. If they did, I would easily buy two more M&Ps to add to the one I already have.
polydeuces
01-11-12, 19:47
I'd be the first one to get this barrel from Randy, BUT......
Not to be a complete ****tard, but common sense tells me that if there's a significant accuracy issue due to barrel-design, as clearly has been proven and remedied by Randy, would it not be appropriate for S&W to implement (including retroactively) this design change in all relevant pistols - while obviously appropriately compensating Mr Lee? (i.e. buying his design at significant cost.....;) )
Considering the capital they're able to bring to bear, this should be not only probable but also nothing less than appropriate: Why would i have to shell out my hard earned cash to fix their inherent significant design flaw?
There's just something so very very wrong with that. Or did I miss something?
Meanwhile i won't be holding my breath, and guess I'll start saving.....:blink:
Are we absolutely sure that s&w wont fix it independantly of apex tactical? If s&w is into listening, they may be on their way to revising things. Who knows if they will retroactively recall all the previous barrels...
They make more accurate barrels for Glocks and even 1911's, shall those manufacturers retroactively replace barrels also? :confused:
I'd be the first one to get this barrel from Randy, BUT......
Not to be a complete ****tard, but common sense tells me that if there's a significant accuracy issue due to barrel-design, as clearly has been proven and remedied by Randy, would it not be appropriate for S&W to implement (including retroactively) this design change in all relevant pistols - while obviously appropriately compensating Mr Lee? (i.e. buying his design at significant cost.....;) )
Considering the capital they're able to bring to bear, this should be not only probable but also nothing less than appropriate: Why would i have to shell out my hard earned cash to fix their inherent significant design flaw?
There's just something so very very wrong with that. Or did I miss something?
Meanwhile i won't be holding my breath, and guess I'll start saving.....:blink:
No, you did'nt miss anything..some of us here, (myself included) have came to the same conclusions,(concerning inherent signifcant design flaws, especially in the 9mm pistols) and moved on to other 9mm platforms that need little or no modifications out of the box..
Randy,
What booth will you be at for SHOT? I checked the exhibitor list for both Apex and Bar-Sto and neither of you are listed. I'm close to biting the bullet and buying an M&P, but I haven't decided whether to go with the .45, which is accurate out of the box, or the 9mm, which requires a lot of aftermarket work to be acceptable...apparently.
As one who has a Midsize.45 and a FS9, Go with the .45..Believe me, you won't be sorry..Put about a 1000rnds on it, and if you decide you want a better trigger, get a Apex FSS..That's probably the best trigger mod Apex has, and it's worth every penny....:lol: Frankly, I'm beginning to believe that the .45's and .40's are the only M&P's worth putting money into..
polydeuces
01-12-12, 08:25
No, you did'nt miss anything..some of us here, (myself included) have came to the same conclusions,(concerning inherent signifcant design flaws, especially in the 9mm pistols) and moved on to other 9mm platforms that need little or no modifications out of the box..
I hear you - but at this point I'm so invested, (being left handed - gear, reliability testing etc) and other than maybe my P226 there's no other pistol I shoot as well. So maybe just deal with it. Probably more cost efficient.
polydeuces
01-12-12, 08:30
Mr. Randy,
Since I won't be holding my breath for S&W making you independently wealthy...........any chance you can give a ball-park figure on cost?
Just so I know how to creatively spin my (ahem..) discretionary spending budget with the wife....;)
Thanks.
Mr. Randy,
Since I won't be holing my breath for S&W making you independently wealthy...........any chance you can give a ball-park figure on cost?
Just so I know how to creatively spin my (ahem..) discretionary spending budget with the wife....;)
Thanks.
In the past, Randy has said it will be priced in line with other Bar-Sto barrels. So $215-260 depending on options.
I hear you - but at this point I'm so invested, (being left handed - gear, reliability testing etc) and other than maybe my P226 there's no other pistol I shoot as well. So maybe just deal with it. Probably more cost efficient.
Well, in my case I went with a PPQ, and it's been well worth it..the only mod I've done to it is installing NS, other than that it needed nothing... No trigger jobs, no extractor changes, no broken strikers, has better ergos, and most importantly, no barrel changes needed. 1700rnds through it so far and no failures. A lightyear ahead of my M&P in the accuracy dept. I'm still debating what to do with my FS9..If S&W is'nt forthcoming with a corrected replacement barrel as a warranty replacement in the near future, It'll probably get kicked to the curb..
saddlerocker
01-19-12, 19:54
Anyone see APEX at SHOT?
Wayne Dobbs
01-19-12, 23:25
Talked to all of them at SHOT. Randy, Lisa and Scott were all there. Possibly will have their own booth next year. Great folks and that pre-production Bar-Sto looks great.
vicious_cb
01-20-12, 01:41
Anyone got pics?
Anyone got pics?
Still six months out. Scott posted this today: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=129100&pid=1621320&st=25&#entry1621320
Bummer. 6 months. Better safe and right than fast though.
FSS/RAM. Custom match BarSto barrel? .22 kits?
Should I just start sending paychecks, or would you prefer I route them incrementally through G&R?
FSS/RAM. Custom match BarSto barrel? .22 kits?
Should I just start sending paychecks, or would you prefer I route them incrementally through G&R?
We accept checks, cash, money orders, credit cards, and occasionally...chocolate.
As it stands after speaking with Irv, the barrels should run $225.00
-Randy
We accept checks, cash, money orders, credit cards, and occasionally...chocolate.
As it stands after speaking with Irv, the barrels should run $225.00
-Randy
Does that price include fitting?
vicious_cb
01-25-12, 19:12
6 months!? :eek:
I couldnt wait that long so I went with Storm Lake. I hope I dont regret that decision.
Does that price include fitting?
I seriously doubt it.
Bar Sto charges $175 to fit a match barrel for similar guns (Glocks), in addition to the $215 price of some of their other barrels, plus shipping.
I seriously doubt it.
Bar Sto charges $175 to fit a match barrel for similar guns (Glocks), in addition to the $215 price of some of their other barrels, plus shipping.
Wow, thats steep. Its too bad S&W can't ship these pistols with better accuracy, out of the box.
The Semi Drop in versions will be available which only require minimal filing on the hood by the end user. These are machined to max. factory lockup dimensions, and will be much tighter in fit than most drop ins. For those who want a better fit but not incur fitting costs, this option will be ideal.
We will be fitting the Match/Target versions in house because it's the only way that I can guarantee a precise fit. The tolerance stack from gun to gun simply can't be compensated for by a drop in. I know from past experience that when I fit a M/T Glock, 1911 or Hi Power barrel, the results are always consistent. It costs in labor, but I think the results speak for themselves.
-Randy
Wow, thats steep. Its too bad S&W can't ship these pistols with better accuracy, out of the box.
They could if they wanted to and hopefully someday soon they will. The Walther PPQ is a good example of a factory gun with great accuracy. Until then or depending on your accuracy needs the fitted Bar-Sto barrel from Apex Tactical is the way to go.
Randy, out of curiosity, will you need to have an entire pistol in your hands to fit a barrel, or slide only? I know for 1911 one needs both slide and frame to fit match grade barrel, but I am not familiar enough with M&P.
They could if they wanted to and hopefully someday soon they will. The Walther PPQ is a good example of a factory gun with great accuracy. Until then or depending on your accuracy needs the fitted Bar-Sto barrel from Apex Tactical is the way to go.
I tried a fiends PPQ a few times and i was getting tighter groups from it, than my G19 at 7 yards. I was impressed with its accuracy.
They could if they wanted to and hopefully someday soon they will. The Walther PPQ is a good example of a factory gun with great accuracy. Until then or depending on your accuracy needs the fitted Bar-Sto barrel from Apex Tactical is the way to go.
IF you want to stay with the M&P platform..At some point though, you have to ask yourself if it's worth it..
IF you want to stay with the M&P platform..At some point though, you have to ask yourself if it's worth it..
Since this thread seems to be related to target shooting and not a defensive weapon, investing in a barrel that enhances your ability to be more accurate than deadly force requires, .... another $200-400, doesn't seem unreasonable. Now if this weapon is for personal protection, or LEO use, the OEM barrel is more than adequate and upgrading is totally unneccessary. :cool:
Wow, thats steep. Its too bad S&W can't ship these pistols with better accuracy, out of the box.
1.46" out of the box at 25 yards isn't good enough for you?
http://pistol-training.com/archives/226
Even after nearly 53,000 rounds the M&P9 still produced a 1.23" group.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/773
1.46" out of the box at 25 yards isn't good enough for you?
http://pistol-training.com/archives/226
Even after nearly 53,000 rounds the M&P9 still produced a 1.23" group.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/773
I believe that P-T.com torture test happened before S&W changed their production process that lead to loss of accuracy with full-size 9 mm M&Ps.
I believe tha P-T.com torture test happened before S&W changed their production process that lead to loss of accuracy with full-size 9 mm M&Ps.
I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the new information :p
I guess I should be happy I purchased my full-size 9mm in 2008!
I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the new information :p
I guess I should be happy I purchased my full-size 9mm in 2008!
You probably should. Ultimately, nobody but S&W really knows. Even now this accuracy thing seems to be a random phenomenon. A group of dudes that I trust reported crappy accuracy with 4 consecutive samples. Another good shooter I know says his two recent samples are acceptable. Another good shooter just had accuracy loss after a considerable count round. I am getting my own M&P later this week, and I have an access to a rental one. I am curious to shoot both for group size.
You probably should. Ultimately, nobody but S&W really knows. Even now this accuracy thing seems to be a random phenomenon. A group of dudes that I trust reported crappy accuracy with 4 consecutive samples. Another good shooter I know says his two recent samples are acceptable. Another good shooter just had accuracy loss after a considerable count round. I am getting my own M&P later this week, and I have an access to a rental one. I am curious to shoot both for group size.
General statements really have no validity... without documentation... i LOVE THE i HEARD AND ... MY FRIEND.. mechanical parts wear out.... and again, are we talking target shooters... or self defense
Since this thread seems to be related to target shooting and not a defensive weapon, investing in a barrel that enhances your ability to be more accurate than deadly force requires, .... another $200-400, doesn't seem unreasonable. Now if this weapon is for personal protection, or LEO use, the OEM barrel is more than adequate and upgrading is totally unneccessary. :cool:
Well, lets do a little simple math...I bought a PPQ from Grant, installed NS myself for another $114 total cost $699,Dosen't need Apex parts to get a decent trigger,Yeah, I know, stock trigger is supposedly good enough. But,I think most people here will disagree with that. ($585,including tax of 6.5% for the PPQ,) and it easily outshoots my M&p9, speaking of which, Lets look at that,I believe I paid $479 (tax included) (again bought from Grant) Now add the cost of Heinie NS ($140) Apex DCAEK ($89.00), RAM($25.00) and now you're at $733 altogether, plus at least $200 for another barrel That come out to $933... You tell me which is the better deal...
The PPQ I bought is'nt intended for use as a target pistol,It is a CCW. However, I believe in carrying a accurate pistol as possible, and it fills that role without alot of extra expense..And that's my point. I know the PPQ is'nt marketed towards LE, but for us "civie's" Why settle for" good enough"? I do find it quite odd that my Midsize.45 shoots almost as well as the PPQ,But my FS9 is miserable past 10yds....If I was one of those people who were having accuracy issues, (as I may be) I'd sit down and think hard before dumping any more money into a M&P..
Well, lets do a little simple math...I bought a PPQ from Grant, installed NS myself for another $114 total cost $699,Dosen't need Apex parts to get a decent trigger,Yeah, I know, stock trigger is supposedly good enough. But,I think most people here will disagree with that. ($585,including tax of 6.5% for the PPQ,) and it easily outshoots my M&p9, speaking of which, Lets look at that,I believe I paid $479 (tax included) (again bought from Grant) Now add the cost of Heinie NS ($140) Apex DCAEK ($89.00), RAM($25.00) and now you're at $733 altogether, plus at least $200 for another barrel That come out to $933... You tell me which is the better deal...
The PPQ I bought is'nt intended for use as a target pistol,It is a CCW. However, I believe in carrying a accurate pistol as possible, and it fills that role without alot of extra expense..And that's my point. I know the PPQ is'nt marketed towards LE, but for us "civie's" Why settle for" good enough"? If I was one of those people who were having accuracy issues, (as I may be) I'd sit down and think hard before dumping any more money into a M&P..
I feel like people are expecting the M&P to be a bullseye pistol out of the box. I don't think that was ever the intent.
General statements really have no validity... without documentation... i LOVE THE i HEARD AND ... MY FRIEND.. mechanical parts wear out.... and again, are we talking target shooters... or self defense
Pictures of a single target do not have more validity than general statements. All it tells that your M&P maybe is shooting OK. Besides, it depends on distance too...
As far is "my friend etc.", why would I not trust a person who I shot next to during a class and can attest to their skill? No, no target shooters here, we're talking inability to hold 6 inch groups.
If you want to level the discussion and talk about personal experiences, give me a week or so to shoot my M&P when it gets here.
If you want to level the discussion and talk about personal experiences, give me a week or so to shoot my M&P when it gets here.
Would it be possible for you to do the testing from a bench or rest (really anything to reduce the impact of human variance as much as possible)?
I know in the P-T.com testing they shot from a sandbag rest. I've read too many accounts of people shooting off hand at 25 yards and complaining about large groups :suicide2:
I've read too many accounts of people shooting off hand at 25 yards and complaining about large groups :suicide2:
That's what I do :D
Seriously, I rarely shoot from off bags. I am no bullseye shooter but I shoot at 20-25 yards often enough to know what average groups to expect. I keep track of my performance so I have plenty of historic comparison data. My plan is to shoot M&P head to head against my HK and see what I get. There could be some bias towards HK since I am familiar with it and its trigger. However, my HK has 6 lbs trigger so it is far from hair trigger and, based on experience with rental M&P, I found stock trigger quite shootable. Basically, I think I'll be able to get a general idea shooting off hand, and will only do off bags if groups are truly horrible.
G34Shooter
01-26-12, 11:01
Since this thread seems to be related to target shooting and not a defensive weapon, investing in a barrel that enhances your ability to be more accurate than deadly force requires, .... another $200-400, doesn't seem unreasonable. Now if this weapon is for personal protection, or LEO use, the OEM barrel is more than adequate and upgrading is totally unneccessary. :cool:
This is not about target shooting there are many 9mm M&P's shot by strong shooters on P-T and Benos that have had 6" and more groups at 25 yards with certain M&P's while they get ~3" or better groups with Glocks as example.
S&W screwed the pooch making some have acceptable accuracy and others horrible.
1.46" out of the box at 25 yards isn't good enough for you?
http://pistol-training.com/archives/226
Even after nearly 53,000 rounds the M&P9 still produced a 1.23" group.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/773
There is more to that story as Todd says here:
pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?924-M-amp-P-Bar-Sto-Barrel-from-Apex-Tactical-preview-pic
You have to keep in mind that my test gun shot high with everything, to the point that S&W had to send me a hand-crafted taller front sight.
There is absolutely no question that a significant number of M&P9 pistols leave the factory with barrel lockup issues. I see guns in class all the time that shoot high (ridiculously high, like 12"+) at 25yd with weak practice ammo but POA/POI with +p JHPs.
The problem predates my 2008 test. The M&P9 I was shooting prior to the test gun had a "Langdon" barrel in it. They were a small special run of barrels S&W did for Ernest Langdon to address the problem. That barrel shoots all ammo like a laser beam. The barrel was installed because my 2006-manufacture gun had the same "weak ammo high, strong ammo POA" problem.
Not. In fact, the factory specifically rejected the idea of making all the barrels to the Langdon specification because of fears that some percentage might need hand fitting. That's reasonable. But instead of looking for a more suitable middle ground, they just decided to stick with the bad profile.
I've seen a number of 2009-2010 manufacture guns that had this problem including some of the "pistol-training.com" guns... even though Smith and I specifically discussed this and they were supposed to make sure those guns got tested.
Like the gen4 9mm reliability issues, the M&P9 accuracy issues are not universal. Some people will tell you they've got five perfect ones, another guy will tell you he's had five bad ones. The problem is that it shouldn't be hit or miss (pardon the pun).
Don't get me wrong, I think the M&P is a great design and when it's right it's an awesome gun. My test gun ran like a champ and was super accurate. I've seen countless M&Ps come through class and do great. But there are a handful of known issues and they crop up often enough that it's a bother.
Now there's APEX to correct a lot of the problems, so if the overall design suits you and you're willing to spend the money -- or if you're already invested in the M&P and want to improve it -- you're in great shape there, as well.
OTOH, if buying from scratch, what is the cost of an M&P9 plus all the APEX upgrades and the new barrel compared to, say, a stock P30?
General statements really have no validity... without documentation... i LOVE THE i HEARD AND ... MY FRIEND.. mechanical parts wear out.... and again, are we talking target shooters... or self defense
A service gun should be able to keep most rounds on a B-27 head at 25 yards with a half decent shooter.
G34Shooter
01-26-12, 11:04
Would it be possible for you to do the testing from a bench or rest (really anything to reduce the impact of human variance as much as possible)?
I know in the P-T.com testing they shot from a sandbag rest. I've read too many accounts of people shooting off hand at 25 yards and complaining about large groups :suicide2:
I had the chance to shoot my factory barrel side by side with the proto barrel.
The best group I could manage off the bench with the factory FS barrel was 5.6" @ 25yds. with the same 147 gr bullet. The factory barrel would constantly throw at least one flyer.
Scott shot a sub 1/2" 3 shot group and all was pretty exciting until the bottom half of his target broke loose and the 4th shot hit the bottom edge of the flapping paper.
Hopefully the Ransom mounting plates will be here sometime next week...
-Randy
"So far, my accuracy testing with the factory barrel has been abysmal. Bruce Gray shot a few 50yd groups with a variety of factory ammo in AL. My 9L would shoot no better than 8" with Gold Dot. CCI Blazer brass was worst, with some rounds not even hitting paper(full size USPSA target). Anyone who knows Bruce knows he can shoot tiny groups if the gun is up to it.
The sear and locking blocks should be out about the same time.
We will be stocking only the M/T or "gunsmith" fit Bar-Stos once they are in production. Due to the tolerance variations between slides and frames, fitting an oversized barrel to an individual gun is the only way to guarantee accuracy improvement."
-Randy
......
Not looking to argue here... installing aftermarket parts that have nothing to do with accuracy is a personal choice. I have 4 M&P's, have installed the basic sear to the DCAEK kit, I live in Mass, so we have the 10lb plus triggers.. my guns are more accurate than I'll ever be.. and NO, I didn't settle for "good enough". For the record, I had no trouble hitting my target 30yds out with my 45 out of the box with a 10lb plus trigger.
I feel exaggerating a situation to prove an invalid point is out of line so I tend to defend what I feel is reality.
G34Shooter
01-26-12, 11:23
Not looking to argue here... installing aftermarket parts that have nothing to do with accuracy is a personal choice. I have 4 M&P's, have installed the basic sear to the DCAEK kit, I live in Mass, so we have the 10lb plus triggers.. my guns are more accurate than I'll ever be.. and NO, I didn't settle for "good enough". For the record, I had no trouble hitting my target 30yds out with my 45 out of the box with a 10lb plus trigger.
I feel exaggerating a situation to prove an invalid point is out of line so I tend to defend what I feel is reality.
So you're guns do NOT have the problem, consider yourself lucky. How does installing a properly fitted barrel have nothing to do with accuracy?
And who's exaggerating? Are you trying to discredit reputable members of this forum and the gun community? Just because you don't have the problem or have not seen it personally does not mean it doesn't exist. I think the person out of line in yourself.
I feel like people are expecting the M&P to be a bullseye pistol out of the box. I don't think that was ever the intent.
About 2 weeks ago, I myself shot MY M&P9(this example has about 2000rnds on it, made in'09) from a rest at different ranges out to 25yds..at 25yds with Fed factory ammo, 10rnds shot at each target from a rest. Three targets were shot. My example hit the black,(high) a total of 6 times out of 30 rnds fired.The rest of the rounds shot were either high above the target or on the cardboard backer about a 1 1/2" above the edge of the paper. The target was 5 3/4" in dia that I had printed up.. Sorry dude, but that kind of accuracy is nothing but fail...I still have the targets ...
About 2 weeks ago, I myself shot MY M&P9(this example has about 2000rnds on it, made in'09) from a rest at different ranges out to 25yds..at 25yds with Fed factory ammo, 10rnds shot at each target from a rest. Three targets were shot. My example hit the black,(high) a total of 6 times out of 30 rnds fired.The rest of the rounds shot were either high above the target or on the cardboard backer about a 1 1/2" above the edge of the paper. The target was 5 3/4" in dia that I had printed up.. Sorry dude, but that kind of accuracy is nothing but fail...I still have the targets ...
That's fair--as has been posted previously, there are many people who have wholly unacceptable accuracy out of the box. I'm not going to argue that. Have you contacted S&W about the performance problems with your particular firearm?
I feel like people are expecting the M&P to be a bullseye pistol out of the box. I don't think that was ever the intent.
Not at all. Two things; first, since this isn't every pistol out of the factory, I would like to see some consistency and better QC. To be honest if they can produce a pistol that shoots 1.46" at 25 yards, they should all be fairly close to this. Not some that do 1.5 at 25 and some that do 7" at 25. Something isn't right about that. More to the point, if they know, they shouldn't put those pistols out for sale. If they don't know, then they have problems in their QC department and they really should revamp their system. Furthermore, if Sig and HK can put out pistols that are close to match grade accurate and reliable, why can't Smith and Wesson.
Not looking to argue here... installing aftermarket parts that have nothing to do with accuracy is a personal choice. I have 4 M&P's, have installed the basic sear to the DCAEK kit, I live in Mass, so we have the 10lb plus triggers.. my guns are more accurate than I'll ever be.. and NO, I didn't settle for "good enough". For the record, I had no trouble hitting my target 30yds out with my 45 out of the box with a 10lb plus trigger.
I feel exaggerating a situation to prove an invalid point is out of line so I tend to defend what I feel is reality.
The .45's are not known for having accuracy issues..I have one as well,it's very accurate. the 9mm pistols are.
For the record, I had no trouble hitting my target 30yds out with my 45 out of the box with a 10lb plus trigger.
I could be wrong but I think the barrel lockup and accuracy problem has plagued the 9mm M&P but there has been none reported with the .45 version.
Edit: Beat me to it...
The .45's are not known for having accuracy issues..I have one as well,it's very accurate. the 9mm pistols are.
That's fair--as has been posted previously, there are many people who have wholly unacceptable accuracy out of the box. I'm not going to argue that. Have you contacted S&W about the performance problems with your particular firearm?
No, because I have little faith that they'll do anything concrete about it..I mean, what can they do? put another barrel in? how's that going to solve anything? I could get lucky and they'd grab one out of the rack and put it in,and it'd shoot better, then again maybe not..At this point in time, I'm not going to wait for S&W to screw around for maybe another couple of years before they figure it out..It'll be sombody else's problem by then.
For the record, I had no trouble hitting my target 30yds out with my 45 out of the box with a 10lb plus trigger.
I feel exaggerating a situation to prove an invalid point is out of line so I tend to defend what I feel is reality.
That's what I hear about 45 and 40; they are reported to be very accurate.
It is hard to say what's considered an exaggeration. You're right in that it is very hard to sort out signal from noise on interwebs, however, web reports proved to be accurate in other instances, like kimber external extractors or gen4 glock issues. At this point, my level of suspicion for poor accuracy with full size 9 mm MP is pretty high. I surely hope mine will shoot adequately but I am grateful Randy and his crew are bringing an alternative solution.
G34Shooter
01-26-12, 12:06
That's what I hear about 45 and 40; they are reported to be very accurate.
It is hard to say what's considered an exaggeration. You're right in that it is very hard to sort out signal from noise on interwebs, however, web reports proved to be accurate in other instances, like kimber external extractors or gen4 glock issues. At this point, my level of suspicion for poor accuracy with full size 9 mm MP is pretty high. I surely hope mine will shoot adequately but I am grateful Randy and his crew are bringing an alternative solution.
Exactly, it's being reported by multiple reputable sources.
The exaggeration comment was directed at the cost of upgrades needed. I pointed out that my 45 shot fine, even with the 10lb plus trigger, I chose to replace the DCAEK at a cost of $90, it didn't make my gun any more accurate. I chose to install a sear in my M&P9c and 40fs, it didn't make it more accurate, those are upgrades to make the trigger more comfortable, not accurate. Saying that one NEEDS to spend $400 plus on an M&P is an exaggeration.
Shooting a defensive gun 25yds plus is another story. If you want a range gun or a target gun, spend $500 on upgrades or buy a $1,000 gun.
The exaggeration comment was directed at the cost of upgrades needed. I pointed out that my 45 shot fine, even with the 10lb plus trigger, I chose to replace the DCAEK at a cost of $90, it didn't make my gun any more accurate. I chose to install a sear in my M&P9c and 40fs, it didn't make it more accurate, those are upgrades to make the trigger more comfortable, not accurate. Saying that one NEEDS to spend $400 plus on an M&P is an exaggeration.
Shooting a defensive gun 25yds plus is another story. If you want a range gun or a target gun, spend $500 on upgrades or buy a $1,000 gun.
Agreed, on many levels.
A mechanical accuracy issue due to design is something entirely different from the ability to SHOOT the gun.
Comparing a PPQ to an M&P or a Glock at 7 yards is quite frankly, stupid. Shootability and mechanical accuracy are two VERY different things.
For people that want more mechanically accurate guns, Randy will provide that. Until then, like Ralph mentioned, we are going to have to limp ahead at the speed at which S&W dictates. IF you can out shoot an M&P then either buy a new barrel or switch platforms, it is that simple. For the rest of us, the guns are accurate enough from a practical standpoint.
Yes, regardless of my last statement i still want my cake and i want to eat it too. :)
So you're guns do NOT have the problem, consider yourself lucky. How does installing a properly fitted barrel have nothing to do with accuracy?
And who's exaggerating? Are you trying to discredit reputable members of this forum and the gun community? Just because you don't have the problem or have not seen it personally does not mean it doesn't exist. I think the person out of line in yourself.
G,
For the record, I did no such thing, discredit anyone. I have my opinion based on my experience. Sharing that opinion does not make me out of line. To be honest, it appears we are talking 2 different subjects, but I guess you don't want to see that. You seem to be confusing a SD gun for a target gun. Self defense where I come from, has a total distance of about 7-10yds, after that, I believe there is a good chance I go to jail. If an M&P by design does not live up to your expectations at 25 or 50 yards, it makes no differance to me, that was not what the gun was designed to do. I thank Randy for doing what he does to improve the M&P, but I am very happy spending around $500 for a gun that meets my needs. I am sure that S&W is well aware of it's limitations and is more than capable to improve it's overall accuracy, but at a price that takes it out of the target market. So to come online and public rip S&W like they did something wrong is wrong. The gun, in it's class and price point is one of the best. Randy wouldn't be wasting his time if it wasn't. Give credit where credit is due.
I don't think at $479.00 Smith should be expected to give you a "hand fitted" barrel. :)
G34Shooter
01-26-12, 15:43
I like Vickers approach to accuracy which does not favor target shooting:
http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/accuracy/
"Another question I get frequently asked is what is the acceptable mechanical or intrinsic accuracy for a service pistol or carbine. Meaning what should the weapon/ammo combination be capable of producing from a shooting device or rest that eliminates shooter error. Keep in mind I come from a surgical accuracy oriented special operations background with little margin for error. Based on this and years of experience I have concluded that a service pistol should be capable of head shots at 25 yds and a service carbine should be capable of the same at 100 yds – basically 5 inch groups. However there is a catch; I have found that under conditions of stress a shooter will only be able to shoot to within roughly 50 % of the accuracy potential of a given weapon. And that is only for the best shooters; the majority will not even be close to that. That means in order to achieve my standard of head shots (5 inch groups) at a given distance the weapon/ammo combination needs to be capable of at least 2.5 inch groups. I personally measure that accuracy standard with 10 shot groups. Many quality service pistols and carbines with good ammo will achieve this but there are many other factors involved such as sights and trigger pull characteristics. By these criteria it is not hard to see why a tuned 1911 pistol is so popular in selected spec ops units. Keep in mind that any effort to make a weapon more accurate almost always means tightening tolerances which can lead to a less than acceptable reliability standard for a combat weapon. A balance between accuracy and reliability has to be achieved. Surprisingly there are many pistols and carbines that do a good job offering an acceptable blend of both. In addition weapons of this type will require a higher degree of end user maintenance to keep them running. Don’t expect a pistol to shoot like a custom 1911 but be as forgiving about maintenance as a Glock 17; it just doesn’t happen that way."
Most service handguns are capable mechanically of 3" or better @25 yards with your carry ammo, unfortunately some M&P 9mm's are double that and are less forgiving of human error. My 9mm M&P's do not have these problems and are capable of acceptable accuracy when I do my job, but I wouldn't mind better mechanical accuracy and being less picky about ammo that the fitted barrel with a 1-16 twist would provide. I'm already invested in the platform so I want to make the best out of it while maintaining reliability.
I like Vickers approach to accuracy which does not favor target shooting:
http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/accuracy/
"Another question I get frequently asked is what is the acceptable mechanical or intrinsic accuracy for a service pistol or carbine. Meaning what should the weapon/ammo combination be capable of producing from a shooting device or rest that eliminates shooter error. Keep in mind I come from a surgical accuracy oriented special operations background with little margin for error. Based on this and years of experience I have concluded that a service pistol should be capable of head shots at 25 yds and a service carbine should be capable of the same at 100 yds – basically 5 inch groups. However there is a catch; I have found that under conditions of stress a shooter will only be able to shoot to within roughly 50 % of the accuracy potential of a given weapon. And that is only for the best shooters; the majority will not even be close to that. That means in order to achieve my standard of head shots (5 inch groups) at a given distance the weapon/ammo combination needs to be capable of at least 2.5 inch groups. I personally measure that accuracy standard with 10 shot groups. Many quality service pistols and carbines with good ammo will achieve this but there are many other factors involved such as sights and trigger pull characteristics. By these criteria it is not hard to see why a tuned 1911 pistol is so popular in selected spec ops units. Keep in mind that any effort to make a weapon more accurate almost always means tightening tolerances which can lead to a less than acceptable reliability standard for a combat weapon. A balance between accuracy and reliability has to be achieved. Surprisingly there are many pistols and carbines that do a good job offering an acceptable blend of both. In addition weapons of this type will require a higher degree of end user maintenance to keep them running. Don’t expect a pistol to shoot like a custom 1911 but be as forgiving about maintenance as a Glock 17; it just doesn’t happen that way."
Most service handguns are capable mechanically of 3" or better @25 yards with your carry ammo, unfortunately some M&P 9mm's are double that and are less forgiving of human error. My 9mm M&P's do not have these problems and are capable of acceptable accuracy when I do my job, but I wouldn't mind better mechanical accuracy and being less picky about ammo that the fitted barrel with a 1-16 twist would provide. I'm already invested in the platform so I want to make the best out of it while maintaining reliability.
Very good, I agree with these statements considering the situation. Obviously we are now talking Special Ops with KH. As for our M&P's, I actually have a Storm\Lake conversion barrel in my M&P40fs, and found it to shoot pretty much the same as my 40 or even my 9c, 3.5" barrel.. I don't have any need for a better barrel, but just like installing the FSS kit on my 40, I didn't need to, but chose to.. just because. When Randy makes them available, I'm sure I'll probably send my 40 in and have it done right since it's not one of my carry guns anymore.
is there going to be a hand fit option for the barrels or will they just be drop in only?
edit: nvm answered my own question on page 4
G,
For the record, I did no such thing, discredit anyone. I have my opinion based on my experience. Sharing that opinion does not make me out of line. To be honest, it appears we are talking 2 different subjects, but I guess you don't want to see that. You seem to be confusing a SD gun for a target gun. Self defense where I come from, has a total distance of about 7-10yds, after that, I believe there is a good chance I go to jail. If an M&P by design does not live up to your expectations at 25 or 50 yards, it makes no differance to me, that was not what the gun was designed to do. I thank Randy for doing what he does to improve the M&P, but I am very happy spending around $500 for a gun that meets my needs. I am sure that S&W is well aware of it's limitations and is more than capable to improve it's overall accuracy, but at a price that takes it out of the target market. So to come online and public rip S&W like they did something wrong is wrong. The gun, in it's class and price point is one of the best. Randy wouldn't be wasting his time if it wasn't. Give credit where credit is due.
I don't think at $479.00 Smith should be expected to give you a "hand fitted" barrel. :)
Why not? Walther does.. Well, I should clarfiy that..They do have someone who takes a slide and then a barrel and checks and sees how they lock up, by hand, if he dosen't like how it feels, he grabs another barrel and tries it again until he's happy with it..not exactly hand fitting, but, time is taken to insure the barrel and slide work together as well as possible..considering the cost of German labor I'm very suprised they take the time to do this, They also test fire at 15meters(every one) and include the target with the pistol..IF S&W did that maybe they would caught some of these pistols that don't shoot so well before the left the factory..
ETA: Jetguns www.jetguns.com Had PPQ's for sale for $482.00 (although they're understandably sold out)
Very good, I agree with these statements considering the situation. Obviously we are now talking Special Ops with KH. As for our M&P's, I actually have a Storm\Lake conversion barrel in my M&P40fs, and found it to shoot pretty much the same as my 40 or even my 9c, 3.5" barrel.. I don't have any need for a better barrel, but just like installing the FSS kit on my 40, I didn't need to, but chose to.. just because. When Randy makes them available, I'm sure I'll probably send my 40 in and have it done right since it's not one of my carry guns anymore.
The issues with accuracy in the M&P's are in 9mm, not 40 or 45.
Why not? Walther does.. Well, I should clarfiy that..They do have someone who takes a slide and then a barrel and checks and sees how they lock up, by hand, if he dosen't like how it feels, he grabs another barrel and tries it again until he's happy with it..not exactly hand fitting, but, time is taken to insure the barrel and slide work together as well as possible..considering the cost of German labor I'm very suprised they take the time to do this, They also test fire at 15meters(every one) and include the target with the pistol..IF S&W did that maybe they would caught some of these pistols that don't shoot so well before the left the factory..
ETA: Jetguns www.jetguns.com Had PPQ's for sale for $482.00 (although they're understandably sold out)
Ok Ralph, go buy one then... I'll stick with my M&P and if I so choose, when Randy has the new barrels available, maybe I'll try one. Have a great day, hope you like your PPQ. :)
By the way, I just checked out the chick on Youtube do the 22 minute review, impressive gun that PPQ... I wonder if they are legal in Mass... :) Probably not.. The chick really loved that PPQ but the last thing she said was ... She ain't giving up her M&P for one...
Ok Ralph, go buy one then... I'll stick with my M&P and if I so choose, when Randy has the new barrels available, maybe I'll try one. Have a great day, hope you like your PPQ. :)
By the way, I just checked out the chick on Youtube do the 22 minute review, impressive gun that PPQ... I wonder if they are legal in Mass... :) Probably not.. The chick really loved that PPQ but the last thing she said was ... She ain't giving up her M&P for one...
I saw that video. She said she would stay with her M&P, because the grip of the PPQ was too large for her hands, even with the small backstrap.
Ok Ralph, go buy one then... I'll stick with my M&P and if I so choose, when Randy has the new barrels available, maybe I'll try one. Have a great day, hope you like your PPQ. :)
By the way, I just checked out the chick on Youtube do the 22 minute review, impressive gun that PPQ... I wonder if they are legal in Mass... :) Probably not.. The chick really loved that PPQ but the last thing she said was ... She ain't giving up her M&P for one...
If you've been reading this thread for any length, you would've seen I've already bought one. I bought it last July....I've got 1700 rnds on it now..no problems..S&W is Walther's sole importer so, I could'nt tell you if they have a Mass.legal PPQ in the works or not.It is indeed a shame you folks up there have to put up with such silliness.. If you get the chance to try a PPQ, give it a shot, Everyone who I've let try mine walked away impressed, two wanted to know where they could buy one. For those folks who are not happy with their M&P's, But aren't ready to go to Glock, and know better than to fool around with XD's (I went down that road,too) this is another option..
So, uh, in the spirit of getting this thread back on track a bit...
Any news on the Apex/Bar-Sto barrels?
If you've been reading this thread for any length, you would've seen I've already bought one. I bought it last July....I've got 1700 rnds on it now..no problems..
Nice ralph, looks like you have a keeper. And yes, I've read it from the beginning, I tend to try to hold onto the material of importance to me... this was supposed to be about APEX T and a new barrel coming to market for the M&P, not about your PPQ and whether or not the 9mm is a good platform. Obviously Randy thinks it is and has invested his time and money into improving an already great platform. :cool:
Oh ya, I looked into whether the PPQ is Mass legal... it's not. :mad:
Guess I'll have to live with my almost flawless M&P's.
So, uh, in the spirit of getting this thread back on track a bit...
Any news on the Apex/Bar-Sto barrels?
Post #167 - six more months.
Post #167 - six more months.
I somehow missed this post and called Apex today I was quoted 7 months before Apex would be able to custom fit a Bar-Sto for my M&P 9L.
My M&P 9L is as accurate as my Glock 34, but I just received my Custom STI 2011 9mm and I'm spoiled by my precision with this pistol. I can't wait to get similar accuracy from my M&P9L!
Even after all the Apex parts, grip stippling, slide lightening, paint, and Bar-Sto fitted barrel, it will still be about half the cost of my custom 2011.
Randy, has the Bar-Sto barrels feed ramp dimensions been changed any from the OE barrel to help eliminate the HP feedway jams occuring with some guns when the slide auto forwards when inserting a mag ? Also will the Bar-Sto barrel have the standard 9mm chamber or a tighter match chamber ?
Nice ralph, looks like you have a keeper. And yes, I've read it from the beginning, I tend to try to hold onto the material of importance to me... this was supposed to be about APEX T and a new barrel coming to market for the M&P, not about your PPQ and whether or not the 9mm is a good platform. Obviously Randy thinks it is and has invested his time and money into improving an already great platform. :cool:
Oh ya, I looked into whether the PPQ is Mass legal... it's not. :mad:
Guess I'll have to live with my almost flawless M&P's.
Well, It really wasn't about my PPQ, I think what we've all learned is that ALOT of people are dissapointed with the level of accuracy they're getting. Not everyone (myself included) is getting that great of results especially at longer ranges. And, considering the wide range of tolerences that we've seen displayed with the M&P, there's no doubt many people who decide to go the Apex/Bar-sto will need to get the barrel fitted, I'm pretty sure my M&P falls into that catagory. And that's the problem...Is a $480 pistol worth putting an estimated $400 into? or is it time to move on? All I wanted to point out that there is another option for about the same money, as what the estimated cost of a fitted, Apex/Bar sto barrel costs, and does not need any of the commonly made Apex modifactions.. That's something that people are going to have to decide for themselves..
I will say this..I'm a firm believer of Apex tactical, Randy Lee has singlehandedly done more for the M&P than S&W has ever done by themselves, If it wasn't for Randy, I've no doubt that S&W would've plodded along with their crummy triggers,so so ejection, etc, with little or no interest in improvement. Randy woke them up..There's probably some engineers at S&W who are wondering "why did'nt we think of that" when looking at Apex's DCAEK, FSS, etc, Sometimes I think people would be better off if S&W would just sell a stripped frame and slide, you could then sent it to Apex to finish building it. You'd probably save some $$ this way too. I currently have a Apex FSS in my Midsize.45, that I bought in'08..It's getting close to having 3000rnds on it, It always been very accurate and a joy to shoot. In it's stock form it wasn't bad, but the FSS really, and I mean really improved it.I can't thank Randy enough for that...
Randy, has the Bar-Sto barrels feed ramp dimensions been changed any from the OE barrel to help eliminate the HP feedway jams occuring with some guns when the slide auto forwards when inserting a mag ? Also will the Bar-Sto barrel have the standard 9mm chamber or a tighter match chamber ?
Hi,
I discussed the issue with Irv at the beginning of the project and he will be setting up the angle based upon his experience with similar barrel designs like the Glock and XD.
Bar-Sto typically runs the barrels with tighter match chambers. Any of the barrels that we fit will be reamed to median SAAMI specs.
Randy
There is now a separate thread about MP accuracy, but since I got into this discussion here, I'll make a quick update: I picked up my FS 9 mm MP yesterday and shot it for groups. The gun is going back to S&W for a couple of reasons and accuracy is one of them. I certainly hope that Apex barrel does become available, the sooner the better.
There is now a separate thread about MP accuracy, but since I got into this discussion here, I'll make a quick update: I picked up my FS 9 mm MP yesterday and shot it for groups. The gun is going back to S&W for a couple of reasons and accuracy is one of them. I certainly hope that Apex barrel does become available, the sooner the better.
Unfortunately, the factory has their accuracy parameters set on the generous end of the spectrum.
As indicated in the thread recently posted, the barrel is only part of the equation if you are looking at accuracy with the factory barrel (we are speaking of the 9mm pistols here). The locking block and slide to frame play have a lot to do with it as well. A good portion of the play is taken up when a barrel is fitted to the slide and frame.
When I designed the barrel lock-up dimensions, I did so with the 9mm issues in mind specifically. I chose Bar-Sto in part because the regardless of the gun, their 1:16" broach cut rifling has ALWAYS delivered 1.5" or better at 25 yds. with quality ammo.
The 1:16" seems to shine with 147 gr fmj or hp bullets, but will stabilize 115 and 124 gr bullets well. Velocity seems to have a greater effect with the lighter bullets, which is to be expected.
I am working on a new locking block that should help improve accuracy with factory barrels. The new locking block, fitted barrel and new sear housing I am putting together should make for guns that shoot 2" or less at 50 yds. Not everyone will need this, but for those who can exploit that level of accuracy (like Bruce Gray, Mickey Fowler and Jerry Miculek) I think it will make others think twice about the accuracy potential of a polymer, striker fired pistol.
For a production gun, if Smith puts out an Apex M&P, I would like to have the minimum mechanical accuracy specification be set at 3" or less at 25 yds.
-Randy
There is now a separate thread about MP accuracy, but since I got into this discussion here, I'll make a quick update: I picked up my FS 9 mm MP yesterday and shot it for groups. The gun is going back to S&W for a couple of reasons and accuracy is one of them. I certainly hope that Apex barrel does become available, the sooner the better.
Yeah but they have the BEST customer service in the industry. :rolleyes:
saddlerocker
01-28-12, 15:45
For a production gun, if Smith puts out an Apex M&P, I would like to have the minimum mechanical accuracy specification be set at 3" or less at 25 yds.
-Randy
I would LOVE to see an APEX M&P from the factory, heck with that VTAC M&P
Silly notion, but I've figured an M&P with stock APEX parts would be coming from somewhere...
Maybe a combo with Boresight, or 10-8 and RB1, and somebody who works with kydex especially if S&W is onboard - not necessarily a limited run, but something that comes as a package with the improved Apex parts, some sights, and comes with improved magazines and a holster.
The price may wind up offending some, but when compared to most of the equivalent custom guns build on similar platforms, I think the results would speak for themselves.
Silly notion, but I've figured an M&P with stock APEX parts would be coming from somewhere...
Maybe a combo with Boresight, or 10-8 and RB1, and somebody who works with kydex especially if S&W is onboard - not necessarily a limited run, but something that comes as a package with the improved Apex parts, some sights, and comes with improved magazines and a holster.
The price may wind up offending some, but when compared to most of the equivalent custom guns build on similar platforms, I think the results would speak for themselves.
This would simplify things, as far as getting an M&P all decked out and ready to go.
For a production gun, if Smith puts out an Apex M&P, I would like to have the minimum mechanical accuracy specification be set at 3" or less at 25 yds.
-Randy
Really enjoy your info, and your products Randy and spoke to you on the phone a few times. I have an FS M&P 9mm with APEX set up, and couldn't be happier for what the total set up costs.
Q: what type of accuracy would you expect from a stock gun of that design and cost? Mine is more then accurate enough for 'gubment' work. Did I just a good one, or are my accuracy expectations of such a gun not what others are hoping for/expecting?
At typical combat distance, I honestly don't note ant major differences in bullet weight and accuracy. Perhaps a bench rest at 25 yards would be a different matter, but I wont be using a bench rest at 25 yards if SHTF. :cool:
When I want tac driver accuracy, I'll shoot my custom 1911s, and know the gun is more accurate then I am. I don't expect it, nor need it honestly, from a sub $500 dollar polymer gun made in large quantities carried for SD and or HD and IDPA, etc. levers of accuracy similar to what I get from a good 1911 say. Sure, would be nice to have that too but I understand designs all have their strengths and weakness/+/- to them.
I do expect great reliability, low maintenance, decent ergos, adequate combat accuracy, and a good trigger (due to the APEX set up) which the M&P has delivered in spades for me. So much so, I have focused on the platform and essentially given up mt beloved 1911s.
Thoughts?
Will,
The problem that we are running into with these guns (sometimes, depending on luck of the draw) is that alot of very talented shooters spend a lot of time shooting at 25 yards.
25 yard shooting is the next best exercise for refining your trigger press after dry fire.
It will very quickly show you EXACTLY how you're pressing the trigger WRONG.
It will very quickly become frustrating if your hardware isnt supporting your software, ie your trigger finger.
At 15 yards and in, provided you have a good grip, a decent sight picture and a decent trigger press you can still make "combat" accurate hits with basically any platform. The issues arise when you start shooting very small targets at very large distances, ie moving away from the "standard" 8 inch circle and you start hunting for the USPSA head box at 15 or 20 yards. This is typically where a gun that groups as tightly as possible shines. You have removed the hardware limitation and now blame misses solely on software.
The root of the issue as has been mentioned several times already is that Smith and Wesson has designed a gun for the masses, kind of like the AK47. They see the gun (at least in the public eye) as being accurate enough. Will this idea change? Probably, but guys like Randy Lee need to keep making waves otherwise no one is really going to say much of anything to Smith.
A very small percentage of the civilian population can outshoot their handguns. An even smaller percentage of LE can do the same.
Magsz:
Great post..I could'nt argee with you more..
Will,
The problem that we are running into with these guns (sometimes, depending on luck of the draw) is that alot of very talented shooters spend a lot of time shooting at 25 yards.
Understood. I do make it a habit to shoot at 25 yards, but it's standing, and my groups acceptable at 25 yards if I pay attention (as you point out) to grip, trigger press, site. For me, if I do my job, the M&P FS 9mm does it job, at least from what I'm expecting for a sub $500 polymer production gun. I'm assuming I got one of the "good" ones, but I'd be interested in Randy's thoughts on my Qs.
At 25 yards, if I do my part, I will generally hold 2"-3" group with my 1911s, and with the M&P, 4-6" group at 25 yards using decent range ammo like Winchester White box, and yes, I can also throw a if i'm not paying attention. That at least when I'm practicing regularly, which is not the case these days. I considered that decent combat accuracy from the gun and myself, so I wondered what Randy's thoughts were on what really should be expected from the gun. Adding the APEX , as expected, made a huge difference.
I know some had had 9mm FS M&P that gave them terrible groups from fairly close distances. If Randy says some have inherant accuracy issues, that's good enough for me as he knows his business. I can say I have seen some people claim the M&P was not very accurate and "cause they read on a forum on a gun site" kinda thing, and when I took the gun and shot, put whole where I wanted it to go.
So, their lack of basic skills get blamed on the gun (which is NOT what I'm saying is going on with others posting here) which actually leads me to my Q, what type of accuracy does Randy feel should be expected from such a gun given it's design, cost, and other variables mentioned above out.
After market stuff that takes a good gun for the $$$$, and makes it a great gun for the $$$, via Randy's work, is all good to me, and APEX trigger kit the best thing that ever happened to the M&P.
I was looking at .40 S&W round prices last night. They were not as bad as I expected. I may just rent an M&P40, and if it feels as good as my M&P9, switch calibers.
Really enjoy your info, and your products Randy and spoke to you on the phone a few times. I have an FS M&P 9mm with APEX set up, and couldn't be happier for what the total set up costs.
Q: what type of accuracy would you expect from a stock gun of that design and cost? Mine is more then accurate enough for 'gubment' work. Did I just a good one, or are my accuracy expectations of such a gun not what others are hoping for/expecting?
At typical combat distance, I honestly don't note any major differences in bullet weight and accuracy. Perhaps a bench rest at 25 yards would be a different matter, but I wont be using a bench rest at 25 yards if SHTF. :cool:
When I want tac driver accuracy, I'll shoot my custom 1911s, and know the gun is more accurate then I am. I don't expect it, nor need it honestly, from a sub $500 dollar polymer gun made in large quantities carried for SD and or HD and IDPA, etc. levers of accuracy similar to what I get from a good 1911 say. Sure, would be nice to have that too but I understand designs all have their strengths and weakness/+/- to them.
I do expect great reliability, low maintenance, decent ergos, adequate combat accuracy, and a good trigger (due to the APEX set up) which the M&P has delivered in spades for me. So much so, I have focused on the platform and essentially given up mt beloved 1911s.
Thoughts?
One problem I've seen in reading through posts about this is very few folks put numbers down instead using vague terms like "combat accurate".
Since everyone has different ideas of what is acceptable that makes it hard to define the problem.
In my case the M&P 9 was giving me rested "groups" as large as 8.75" at 25 yards with a POI 3.75" above POA. At 10 yards that same ammo (127gr +p+) grouped 2" and was only .75" above POA. Obviously something went horribly wrong between 10 & 25 yards. My old beater Ruger P94 kept the same ammo in a 3.3" group at 25 yards. All groups were 10 rounds fired.
3 - 4" 25 yard groups would be my idea of minimum acceptable accuracy. If a gun will only do 6 - 8" or more rested then how much worse will I do handheld? COM becomes doubtful and Anywhere On Mass becomes more likely. Not good.
In my case the M&P 9 was giving me rested "groups" as large as 8.75" at 25 yards with a POI 3.75" above POA.
That would not be acceptable, I can see. Good info, thanx. Although it appears I got one of the more accurate 9mm, not opposed in the least to adding what Randy is fixing to offer when I can. His additions to the M&P have been worth every $ so far for me.
I'm waiting to get mine back from the factory then will test it with the same ammo and controls to see how much improvement I got. Once that's done I'll post a report.
I'll be putting in a lot of Randy's parts any way but wanted to see what S&W could or would do.
I'm waiting to get mine back from the factory then will test it with the same ammo and controls to see how much improvement I got. Once that's done I'll post a report.
I'll be putting in a lot of Randy's parts any way but wanted to see what S&W could or would do.
Cool, keep us updated on progress there. S&W CS has always been second to none in my experience and they have always made it right to my satisfaction when/if I had any issues with a product. And I don't just say that 'cause i was an adjunct instructor there for a short time, all my good experiences were pre that arrangement. :dance3:
So it has been almost a year since this teaser was posted; any updates? I wonder if the apex pistol suggestion thread was an offshoot of this project, as in too many issues to correct and retrofit to make the barrel fitting worthwhile?
Obviously, Randy can speak for himself, but in the meantime, I spoke with Apex within the last week. This is still a current project for them, and they expect something in a few months.
Hi All,
My latest report from Bar-Sto is that several large chunks of stainless steel went off to heat treat. This is the first step. Next comes the gun drilling, then broaching the rifiling into the blanks.
I don't have an eta as of yet, but it certainly sounds like progress. I will keep you updated as we hear anything. Thanks for your patience!
-Randy
.........................
Hi All,
My latest report from Bar-Sto is that several large chunks of stainless steel went off to heat treat. This is the first step. Next comes the gun drilling, then broaching the rifiling into the blanks.
I don't have an eta as of yet, but it certainly sounds like progress. I will keep you updated as we hear anything. Thanks for your patience!
-Randy
Hey Randy, can you give us an update on your progress with the bar-sto barrel project?
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Hi all,
We just received two of the production proof barrels in .40 and expect the 9 mm proofs shortly.
More info to come!
-Randy
This is why I hesitate to get an M&P FS - if I have to pay $200 more to get an accurate gun - I need a different gun.
Um...why? I'm all for match barrels, and will buy three of the Bar-Sto barrels to eek out as much accuracy as I can, but the new M&P's have exhibited very good accuracy, IME.
This group is from my new VTAC.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/USMC-to-be/photo2.jpg
For $200 you get a stupid accurate gun with a lot of aftermarket support and cheap and easy to find mags. Where's the downside? I think a lot of the people complaining about the accuracy cant shoot to begin with and use that to justify their lack of training. Dont get me wrong, I know that there's been a problem with this, but S&W fixed that with the newer guns and people are still having problems.
Hi all,
I am anxiously awaiting the 9mm version production proof barrel. It should arrive here any day now.
The .40 barrels are producing some excellent accuracy at the 10-15 yard range. Scott and I took the .40 FS out independently to check function. We both confirmed that with Fed 180 fmj, our off-hand groups were between .5" to .75" for five shots.
As soon as I receive the 9mm barrels (and we shoot them for functional reliability) we will do some 25 yard data collection.
We are getting closer!
-Randy
Thanks for the update Randy.
GUNSLINGER733
10-17-12, 10:10
Any news on 9mm barrels?
Thanks
Any news on 9mm barrels?
Thanks
This.
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