Newish to the civilian side of shooting/firearms

[TeamGrazzi]

I would like to start by saying this is a great site. A lot of helpful information and people. Being a Soldier for 15 years you think you know a lot about weapons and all till you hit the civilian side of it and see that you really don't know a 1/10 of what you thought you did. From reading through the forums I am finding a lot of great "tactical" marksmanship techniques as well as equipment information.

I am looking to purchase an AR 15/M4 rifle and to be honest I am having a bit of trouble digesting some of the intel you guys have. Living in the most unfriendly gun state (IL, our CC just got voted down again) there isn't a lot of quality smiths or shops that are willing to help educate someone either.

I don't want to be a typical Army guy who buys a colt simply because that is what I know when there could be a better value/reliability/customizable AR on the market. *How much of a difference does all the mods people are doing make? *I had a "stock" M4 in Afghanistan and it served me well, but I don't want to get stuck in the military mindset and not have top notch equipment. *Thanks for the help to an oldish dog trying to learn new tricks!!*

[Kuro Ookami]

I am looking to purchase an AR 15/M4 rifle and to be honest I am having a bit of trouble digesting some of the intel you guys have.

I don't want to be a typical Army guy who buys a colt simply because that is what I know when there could be a better value/reliability/customizable AR on the market. *How much of a difference does all the mods people are doing make? *I had a "stock" M4 in Afghanistan and it served me well, but I don't want to get stuck in the military mindset and not have top notch equipment. *Thanks for the help to an oldish dog trying to learn new tricks!!*

Don't try to do anything regarding mods until you define what your rifle is going to be used for. If you're really willing to learn, the first thing you should do would be to sign up for a carbine 1 class from a respected instructor, and just go learn. Running through drills will allow you to point out what needs working on, and from there, you can determine what kind of products can help you run your AR better. (whether it be quicker target acquisition, faster followup shots, and so forth), you can search these forums to get up to date on the best product in the industry.

If you pay attention to other people's guns, you'll notice that most have an Aimpoint T-1. People like it because it does everything other Aimpoints do at half the weight and has great battery life. Maybe this would be your first upgrade?

I would read this sight to help you get started.

http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/126721.html

[rob_s]

There are far worse things than accidentally buying a Colt. :D

The good news is that you already have some experience. The bad news is that you likely didn't have much say in the parts that were on your issued M4.

I would try to think of the things you liked about that gun, and didn't like, and at the very least try to replicate what you did and toss out what you didn't. Just remember to filter it though your current needs, not what you did with the carbine when you were active.

Welcome to the site, and thank you for your service. Virtually all of the tacked threads here are worthwhile if you take the time to read them.

[SeriousStudent]

As the others have said, thank you for your service to our country. You are appreciated!

And Rob is correct. If you search for threads on M4C with the title "Oh no! I bought a Colt 6920 before I knew better!" you will not get any hits. It's a terrific first carbine. It was my first, and I'm still very pleased with it years later.

Kiesler's has a military discount, and lists a 6920 at $961. I lifted this info from another thread.

http://www.kiesler.com/police/productdetail.aspx?catid=347&pid=735

Good mags, quality ammo, and some solid training classes would be a great idea. Rob and many others have suggested Randy Cain as a great first instructor. There are also some excellent resources if you search for "Vicker's Shooting Method".

http://vickerstactical.com/larry-vickers-regional-endorsed-instructors/

A light, sling and red dot optic are often considered for eventual purchase as well.

Best of luck, and stay "Infidel Strong!" ;)

[TeamGrazzi]

First off... Thank you for the support, not that most "gun" people are against the military but it is still nice to know we are not forgotten.

Well the institution I work for supplies our on the job rifles so this will be a home defense/keeping my skills fresh trigger time/SHTF and of course plinking zombies weapon.

I checked out the Kessler website and thought about maybe upgrading from the LE6920 to the LE6940 since it comes with the rail system and optic friendly flip down irons. It is $1250 so that would leave me about $450 left to put in the jar for accessories. I am a firm believer in saving up and buying once.

[TeamGrazzi]

There are far worse things than accidentally buying a Colt. :D

The good news is that you already have some experience. The bad news is that you likely didn't have much say in the parts that were on your issued M4.

I would try to think of the things you liked about that gun, and didn't like, and at the very least try to replicate what you did and toss out what you didn't. Just remember to filter it though your current needs, not what you did with the carbine when you were active

The things I liked about the M4 far out weigh the dislikes. I started out with the M16A2 and shot decently however, when we switched to the M4 my scores actually went up instead of down like most people. I shoot very compact and close to my body allowing me to be accurate over a longer period of time since my muscles are doing less work to hold up the rifle. So the ability to shorten the stock made me more comfortable. I would have liked a smother trigger although until I fired one of my friends weapon systems I didn't know that :).

The stickies on this site are pretty freaking full of awsome info, I just get lost in the lingo sometimes and have to stop to look things up!

[rob_s]

I would skip the 6940. If you buy one and it turns out you like the rail and it's placement then awesome, but if you don't like it you're stuck with it as it's an integrated part of the upper receiver.

Even though you're prior service and obviously don't lack for experience, I'd still give you the same advice I give virtually everyone else, which is to start with the basic gun and go shoot the piss out of it, and make changes as you find deficiencies. One of the great things about training classes and the shooting sports is that you get to see other guys run their gear, get an idea of what might work for you, ask them if you can try it and what they like about it, and evaluate first-hand if you think it's for you.

That path was totally lost on me when I started out, and it took me going and spending a year with the AK, starting out with the basic gun, many years after I first started buying ARs, to figure that out. Start with the basic gun, lots of ammo, plenty of mags, and go shoot the hell out of it.

The 6920 is likely to feel the most familiar to you. The only differences in the base gun are that the switch has one less position and the barrel is 1.5" longer. That's it. From there the differences are all in the bolt-ons (rail system, optic, laser, VFG, etc.) and you may find that in civilian life you have different needs in those categories than you did as a soldier.

[Hmac]

If you pay attention to other people's guns, you'll notice that most have an Aimpoint T-1. People like it because it does everything other Aimpoints do at half the weight and has great battery life. Maybe this would be your first upgrade?


Man, I don't see that at all. The T1 is a competent RDS with some advantages in some uses, but for many people its disadvantages (small tube, internal reflections, reticle) outweigh the advantages. I was reminded of this just yesterday in training as I was shooting both of my SBRs, one with a T1 and the other with an EXPS3. I think it would be a big mistake for the OP to assume that the T1 will suit him better than other Aimpoint (or Eotech) models. I prefer Eotechs, but if I were going to buy an Aimpoint, my first choice would be the Aimpoint PRO.

[rob_s]

I disagreed with that recommendation too, but maybe for different reasons.

The Aimpoint Micros are great sights and I have three of them (one of each) and use them regularly, but for someone starting out, especially someone prior service, I would recommend the bigger-tube versions. The OP is likely used to the M4s and probably had the M2 before that. The PRO, or even the C3 depending on what the availability is of the PRO now, would probably be a better choice and be more familiar.

[TeamGrazzi]

Well actually any optic would be new for me... By the time optics became the "standard" for the Army I had progressed to a point where I am now which is working in an office taking care of the Soldiers instead of running the mean streets of Kabul with them. I have never had an Army issued weapon with any type of optics, only time I have used them was civilian side.

[usmcvet]

Sounds like the Colt would be a great fit for you. That is a great price. I've had 4 different rail systems on my guns and I'm now using regular hand guards on one and MOE handguards on the rest. I bought a pair of Aimpoint H1 red dot Scopes. The were the wrong choice for my eyes. The 2MOA dot is pretty good with my astigmatism and I switched to M4 Aimpoints. The H1 and T1 have a 4 MOA dot not so good for me.

I spent a lot of time and money ended up with pretty basic guns w/no rails in the end.

[TeamGrazzi]

So.... I went to the local gun shop to see what kind of AR's they had and what their prices looked like. Armed with the great knowledge I got from reading these forums I was looking at the Colts, DD, and CMMG's passing by the 4 racks of Bushmasters and the 5 racks of RRA's. They had one Colt the Sporter M4 and 2 DD AR's. The supposed expert behind the counter proceeded to ask me why I was looking at those and not the RRA's. My response was that all of my research has shown me that RRA's and not as good as the Colts or DD's. He said your really only paying for a name with them and Colt isn't making as many weapons as they use to. Check out this RRA and how much better it is... I laughed on the inside and listened to his speech to see if he was going to give me any actual data to support his "theory", which of course he did not. However, he did show me a weapon that I didn't find a lot of information about here. The Sig516 Patrol, was just curious if that was because it was new or because it sucks so bad it isn't worth the time? Just wondering since Sig offers a pretty good Military discount as well and I like their pistols. Also before you yell at me for not using the search button it doesn't seem to be working.... I keep getting an error of no information sent when I do a search :(

Link to the weapon: http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/sig516-patrol.aspx

[bulbvivid]

Also before you yell at me for not using the search button it doesn't seem to be working.... I keep getting an error of no information sent when I do a search :(

There's a Google search button in the toolbar at the top of the site—it's the orange search button between calendar and FAQ.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of love for that particular rifle around here.

Here's a search to get you started: m4carbine.net: sig 516 (https://www.m4carbine.net/gtsearch.php?cx=003496919632624929056%3Adhiwgm0hbaa&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=sig+516&siteurl=www.m4carbine.net%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D78105)

[zblink]

Not trying to steer you away from DD or Colt but LMT is based in IL

[DeltaSierra]

Link to the weapon: http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/sig516-patrol.aspx

The SIG 516 is...

nothing special...


https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=59700



https://www.m4carbine.net/gtsearch.php?cx=003496919632624929056%3Adhiwgm0hbaa&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=SIG+516&sa=Search&siteurl=www.m4carbine.net%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D59700#874


Go with your original idea of the Colt 6940 over a SIG 516...

Or, better yet, just buy a Colt SP6920, and Aimpoint CompM4 and be done with it...

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

OP,

thanks for your service. The Sig 516 is really something most of us would avoid. One of those DD rifles at the shop would last you a lifetime of hard use.

As far as optics, if you are planning to use your rifle in a more home defense type scenario, I highly recommend an Aimpoint. Depending on your price point, there are 3 models that would really suit you. The first and least expensive is the P.R.O., the middle would be the T1, and the most expensive (but best IMO) is the Aimpoint M4 or M4S.

My Aimpoint M4:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/Guns%20and%20Gear/DSC01604.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/Guns%20and%20Gear/DSC01594.jpg