View Full Version : Barely know how to shoot an AR15, should I buy an optic regardless?
GrandPooba
05-16-11, 23:11
New to rifle shooting. I've been shooting handguns for a few years. I just got my AR a few months ago and really have taught myself the basics by trying to translate my experience with handguns over to rifles. However, I did sign up for an Appleseed shoot this summer to really get the basics down (with my 10/22). I would also like to take a defensive carbine course this year.
Right now, I shoot 2-3 times a month all with irons. Range sessions consist of both shooting for groups as well as presentations, double taps, mag changes, etc. The best I can shoot is ~1 inch @ 25m from a supported position. When doing the "tactical" stuff from a standing position, my "groups" are upper torso sized. Stupid gun club doesn't let me shoot on the 50m/100m range until my 6 month probationary period is past. Now, obviously, I would like to keep shooting irons to build up those skills, but I also depend on my AR for home defense use. I am well aware of the advantages an optic like an AImpoint or Eotech provide for low light close quarters use. My AR is a KISS setup with just a sling and Surefire light mounted on the front sight base
So, should I just buy an optic and start practicing with both optics and back up iron sights? Or, should I wait until after I get formal training before slapping stuff onto my AR. I would like to hear the community's opinions on the practical benefits of optics as a function of training and skills.
snackgunner
05-16-11, 23:19
Id personally practice more with the irons and spend the money on more ammo and training, then get the optic later down the line.
If you get the optic you may never want to take it off. Plus even if you did, taking the optic off and on (to practice with both irons and optic), and having to re-zero it all the time will be a pain.
What if your optic fails?
My .2 cents
It was many moons ago, but I seem to remember a member here, (rob_s perhaps?), who made a pretty strong argument for getting an RDS like an Aimpoint on your rifle ASAP. The only thing that comes to mind for me, is that if this is your home defense rifle and you have even an inkling that you'll use it as such, you should equip it with sensible equipment to help improve your skill and effectiveness with your weapon....
GrandPooba
05-16-11, 23:21
It was many moons ago, but I seem to remember a member here, (rob_s perhaps?), who made a pretty strong argument for getting an RDS like an Aimpoint on your rifle ASAP. The only thing that comes to mind for me, is that if this is your home defense rifle and you have even an inkling that you'll use it as such, you should equip it with sensible equipment to help improve your skill and effectiveness with your weapon....
Yes, the fact that my AR is also my home defense weapon is the strongest argument I've thought about for getting an optic immediately.
However, the other side of me strongly values fundamentals and training in the basics before making the "next step".
So, there are two sides that I am juggling right now.
Perhaps you should contact the folks that are running the carbine course you're planning to take and find out what gear they recommend for the class. Then plan accordingly
However, the other side of me strongly values fundamentals and training in the basics before making the "next step".
A gun with a RDS type optic is a different gun than an iron sighted gun. They both have fundamentals. Some the same, some divergent.
Practice with the irons, get proficient with them, and learn the weapon. After that, move on to optics.
Just my .02
I know the mantra here is to "master" irons first, which is great in theory. I think it is widely accepted that people shoot better with optics, which is why our military is optically oriented. I don't know of many deployed soldiers/marines that don't have an optic on their weapon. For the OP's described use of the gun, I think an Aimpoint of some type will work well for him. Iron sights have been called Back-Up-Iron-Sights for several years for a reason. I think irons still have a place on fighting guns, but for serious use I think an Aimpoint or ACOG would be my first purchase, followed by a weapon light purchsed at the same time. People who know much more about this than me have said a modern rifle needs an optic and a white light, and ammo. Everything else , like rails, lasers, etc., is just an added benefit.
outrider627
05-17-11, 05:39
I say learn irons, because its a fundamental skill applicable to all rifles/shotguns. That being said, if you find an awesome deal on a quality red dot like an Aimpoint, buy it.
The fundamentals of fighting are different than the fundamentals of shooting. Shooting is a core skill that is only PART of fighting.
You need to define your terms. and your goals.
Of late I have become, rather strongly, of the opinion that we are (many of us) doing one thing and saying another. To draw a parallel, what's more important: taking a handgun class that shoots out to 25 yards and beyond, or taking a CQC class that teaches you to retain the weapon and fight in confines like a car? The A-answer is "neither", but the A-answer would change if you knew you were going to be in a fight next week and you looked at the statistics on same.
I say that to say this...
If you are currently relying on this firearm as a defensive tool in your home, and if "home defense" to you means what it does to me (retrieve kid, hunker down with kid and woman, pop first face that comes through the door), then IMO you owe it to yourself to get an RDS. Sticking to the iron sights in that situation because you were concerned with learning the fundamentals of marksmanship is just plain :jester:
Nothing says you can't have the RDS on the gun at home, take it to the range a few times to get familiar with it, and use that as part of your HD plan. Buy an Aimpoint C3 and never turn it off. RDS are stupid easy to use, especially on close range targets, and are exponentially easier to use on moving targets and in the dark. Keep both eyes open, see the mother****er, put the dot on the mother****er, shoot the mother****er (to paraphrase Pat Rogers).
While this is going on, if part of your goal structure is to become a better marksman, go take a class with the irons. I'll have an article in SWAT next month or the month after about getting back to basics where I took a 3-day class with irons after years of optics use.
Our local IDPA club has a picnic match every year where we set up a lane for the kids to shoot .22s. We have also had family friendly rimfire events where the kids get to shoot "stages" with the rifles. Over and over again I have watched kids who struggled with the iron-equipped guns pick up an RDS-equipped gun and start making hits. You cannot argue with that kind of success and those kinds of results. Hell even the Army gave up on trying and I've met many prior-service that tell me they never even learned the irons at all.
Discussions of what make you a better rifleman should not be confused with what makes you a better fighter. "Learn irons" and "you need a better trigger" and "pencil barrels aren't accurate enough" and all that other horseshit is just that, horseshit. That guy telling you that isn't there with you at 4 AM while you try to find those iron sights over the top of your bed with your wife and kid hunkered behind you. He's not there with you when you put a little too much pressure on that $300 trigger and put a round in your kid's foot, or worse, while moving around your house.
Pat Rogers has another saying that is appropriate here:
"We need to get over the romance of aligning sights and get to the business of shooting smelly bearded men in the face more efficiently."
Whether that smelly bearded man is a moose-limb overseas or a meth head in your basement, the sentiment is the same.
Don't let the traditionalists hamstring you. They'll tell you to go buy a revolver, and then a 10/22, and then you're "allowed" a semi-auto, and on and on. Then 6 months in to your 10 year zen training you have an event where you need a gun and all you have is a revolver in your range bag and a 10/22 in your safe and you're SOL. Those of us that came to firearms as adults, with an end-goal of defending ourselves and our families, have a different set of criteria and needs than a kid starting out. I started the boy on a youth 10/22 with iron sights. I started his mom on a Glock 19 with night sights, a Boresight Solutions grip reduction, and a white light along with other modifications (and a two-day class) to make it, and her, a better fighter. Two different things.
Becoming a marksman is an admirable goal, and the fundamentals of marksmanship ARE important, but they take years to master and you're SOL if the fight happens before you are ready.
fiddly_foo
05-17-11, 06:42
That was very well said . If it makes you more reliable to take down (a Bad guy) and portect your family then that's what you need to do get a RDS. That doesn't mean you can't go to the range and use your BUIS if you wanted to. Just do what you think and put alot of lead down range....
Rob hit the nail on the head and buried it in the wood with that post.
When something does go bump in the night you want the deck stacked in your favor. Since you already have a good light on your carbine buying an Aimpoint of some sort makes perfect sense for a rifle that you are going to use for HD duty. Shop around and look on the EE here for some good deals. Here is one:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81098
BUY IT!!!
Dive right into that electronic crutch! :jester:
Cylinder Head
05-17-11, 08:52
Get yourself an Aimpoint, co-witness it with your irons and learn to use both.
I'm taking drivers ed next month...do you guys think I should buy a supercharger or learn to drive a standard transmission? My car is a manual of course, but I really think I need something faster ASAP.
I plan on becoming a pilot soon. Should I buy a Learjet or hold out for the space shuttle? Thanks for the help guys.
Amazing that this thread has lasted.
I'm taking drivers ed next month...do you guys think I should buy a supercharger or learn to drive a standard transmission? My car is a manual of course, but I really think I need something faster ASAP.
I plan on becoming a pilot soon. Should I buy a Learjet or hold out for the space shuttle? Thanks for the help guys.
Apples and orangutangs.
Apples and orangutangs.
Yeah, learning fundamentals before adding performance enhancers is completely unrelated to this thread. Hey guys, I plan on starting a weight lifting program soon. What kind of 'roids should I use with my first cycle? I want to be really strong.
Should I buy a yellow visor to match my escalade or should I just keep rocking the "cocked" hat?
Smuckatelli
05-17-11, 09:12
New to rifle shooting. I've been shooting handguns for a few years. I just got my AR a few months ago and really have taught myself the basics by trying to translate my experience with handguns over to rifles. However, I did sign up for an Appleseed shoot this summer to really get the basics down (with my 10/22). I would also like to take a defensive carbine course this year.
Rob's post pretty much put the debate between irons & scopes to bed.
I am a little concerned how you are currently training with the rifle. I would stop using a rest when shooting until you feel comfortable with the rifle. It seems like a lot of people get wrapped around the axle about BZO, MOA, tight groups, and so on. This really gets magnified when a scope is put on the rifle and all of a sudden the shooter wants to be Gunny Hathcock.
The 25 yards that the club limits you to should be good to go for what you may need in a HD situation, you probably don't have an unobstructed shot over 25 yards inside your house. With that said, barely knowing how to shoot your rifle is not a good mindset to have.
Have you worked on clearing the weapon under low or no light situations?
If you don't have snap caps, you should probably invest in a couple of packs. You can practice clearing with them inside your most likely area of employment. When doing this, DO NOT have live ammo anywhere near you, the weapon or in the same room.
As for the rifle rest at the range, you should think about avoiding it if possible. It isn't going to help you in you current scheme of employment with the rifle. Look around your house and figure out likely areas where you could be engaging from.....what are the likely 'stances' that you will be using? A combination of sitting, kneeling, kinchee squat, prone, off hand........? Whatever the stance is, if you are presenting yourself like we do on the range...you are giving the badguy a good target to engage. Getting low and in a stance that looks like a pile of laundry could give you the extra second that you need to engage. It also makes it harder for the badguy to see you and you find it easier to 'silhoutte' him.
You should probably clearly define what you think home defense is. Getting the family into a safe area and defending it as Rob posted is exactly what my plan is. The tricky part is getting the family into one room that is defendable...this is why you need to identify likely areas of employment. Once the family is in the safe area....you can bring out the rifle rest and wait in ambush for the badguy.
If you idea of HD is to locate, close with, and destroy the badguy by fire and maneuver, or to repel the badguy's assault by fire and close combat...you probably ain't doing your family any good. Something that we used to push on Embassy & Security Forces duty was to locate the badguy, secure his egress and wait for the CQB bubbas to come get him. Even though we knew the buildings better than anyone else.....we still had other duties that would not allow us to train to the level of expertise that no kidding CQB bubbas got.
Something else to keep in mind, you mentioned that you have a KISS rifle....you didn't mention the manufacture. Have you looked at Rob's chart? Where does your rifle fit into the chart?
I'm taking drivers ed next month...do you guys think I should buy a supercharger or learn to drive a standard transmission? My car is a manual of course, but I really think I need something faster ASAP.
I plan on becoming a pilot soon. Should I buy a Learjet or hold out for the space shuttle? Thanks for the help guys.
Amazing that this thread has lasted.
:confused:
More appropriate would be learning to drive the manual trans or just going with the automatic. Guess what, autos requires less thought and quality new autos get better mileage now too.
:confused:
More appropriate would be learning to drive the manual trans or just going with the automatic. Guess what, autos requires less thought and quality new autos get better mileage now too.
Comprehend what you read, then post.
In the analogy, the existing car is already a manual.
I'm not even sure what the hell the rest of your post means. Is this thread now about manual versus automatics? Because perimeter frames are generally stronger than unibody construction. Take that.
Yeah, learning fundamentals before adding performance enhancers is completely unrelated to this thread. Hey guys, I plan on starting a weight lifting program soon. What kind of 'roids should I use with my first cycle? I want to be really strong.
Should I buy a yellow visor to match my escalade or should I just keep rocking the "cocked" hat?
I see, so this is a personal issue for you. Good luck with that.
Doc Safari
05-17-11, 09:26
OP: I'm taking this exact journey right now myself.
My decision:
1. I'm used to shooting other firearms and not so much the M4. Until I get proficient with irons at any range I realistically expect to use it, I won't install an optic. After that, it's an Aimpoint for sure.
2. We are approximately a year and a half from an election. This is a time of relative calm with regard to another assault weapons ban or high capacity magazine ban. My plan right now is to purchase a good inventory of magazines and ammunition so that if another panic sets in closer to the election, then I won't be paying inflated prices and scrambling for availability.
As far as training goes I am investigating that right now and won't comment until I have a lot more information.
Comprehend what you read, then post.
In the analogy, the existing car is already a manual.
I'm not even sure what the hell the rest of your post means. Is this thread now about manual versus automatics? Because perimeter frames are generally stronger than unibody construction. Take that.
1.
Iron sights is to manual transmission as RDS is to______
A. a comparison between a simple skill and one involving higher mental function and years of education
B. Learjet
C. Apples and Orangutangs
D. Automatic transmission
Smuckatelli
05-17-11, 09:39
Comprehend what you read, then post.
In the analogy, the existing car is already a manual.
I'm not even sure what the hell the rest of your post means. Is this thread now about manual versus automatics? Because perimeter frames are generally stronger than unibody construction. Take that.
Let's relax, Rob's post 'bout RDS and the OP's intended use make perfect sense. RTA, your comment about "existing car" is spot on. For the OP's existing requirement, the RDS is what he needs. I originally voted for wait for training but after Rob bitch slapped my thinking, I wish that I would have picked the other choice.
BTW, the existing cars in our garage are a CX-9 & V-70 R (turbo, 300 hp, 6 speed manual). When my daughter turned 16 she spent the first 2 months only driving the V-70 R. Once she was good to go with that I let her drive the CX-9 automatic. ;)
BUY IT!!!
Dive right into that electronic crutch! :jester:
WTF does that even mean? How is an optic a "crutch"? Perhaps he should learn to use a muzzle loader first, as these new fangled breech-loaders are just a crutch.:rolleyes:
The fundamentals of marksmanship remain the same, regardless of the type of sights used.
More people shoot poorly due to poor trigger manipulation, then anything else.
Please, please tell me, what, real world advantage do iron sights bring to the game? What real world advantage is there to learning iron sights first? Lets dispense with these antiquated notions of "cheating" and the right way to learn "fundamentals". You probably don't believe in resting the mag on the ground either, cause, ya know its cheating, and all...
The fact is, they got nothing, period. No real world gunfighting organization, of any merit, uses iron sights as the primary sighting device. I can think of only one instructor of any merit that still advocates iron sights.
What a RDS does do, is give you options. It allows you to get on the sights faster, in varied lighting conditions, and, most importantly, in varied, non-standard, asymmetric shooting positions, that you'll likely find yourself in. Well not at Camp Perry, but in a gunfight.
There is a video floating around, of a "torture" test that Daniel Defense conducted on one of its carbines, with an Aimpoint T1 mounted. The amount of abuse the rifle and optic took, was astonishing. Even with a hole in the rear lens, the optic worked and retained zero. Only after a 100 foot drop from a helo, did it loose zero.
Rob_S hit most of the highlights, though I disagree with some of the details.
To the OP, this has been discussed quite a bit around here, you'll find a lot with the search.
I would however, caution against, "self taught" shooting. Practice does not make perfect, practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect. You may only be reinforcing bad habits.
You have multiple "priorities" competing for, what I assume, are limited funds. A good gun, light, optic, mag's, ammo and training. They all go together, one with out the others, lacks the potential of the total.
Find a good instructor, who's focus is on what you want to do with the carbine. Larry Vickers, Paul Howe(iron sights guy) Pat Rogers, Jeff Gonzales, Jim Smith, Kyle Lamb, etc etc all have excellent carbine operators courses.
BTW, the Army got away from manual transmissions long ago, because they figured, and later, at Black Hawk down, were proven right, that... trying to steer, shoot, talk on a radio, AND shift, kinda sux.
Some of you guys need to take a look at a calendar.
Bob
Comprehend what you read, then post.
In the analogy, the existing car is already a manual.
I'm not even sure what the hell the rest of your post means. Is this thread now about manual versus automatics? Because perimeter frames are generally stronger than unibody construction. Take that.
Take your own advise as cited in your first sentence.
And, stop using car analogies for weapons. They rarely match up particularly well, as you may be (or more likely are absolutely not) discovering, since all one ever manages to do is nitpick automotive subsystems as everybody attempts to out-clever each other and make the whole thing devolve into a tiresome Chevy/Ford/less filling/tastes great idiocy.
Reign in your emotions, stuff in a manpon. Take that, yourself.
My opinion.
If torso size grouping is all you can get offhand at 25 yds with irons, it sounds like you could benefit either from better fundametals of shooting or a RDS due to bad eye sight (like me).
I didn't have a RDS when I first got into ARs and it didn't take long to realize that I needed an optic, got one and my accuracy greatly improved. Hell my 11 yo daughter can out shoot me with the 10/22 with irons now.
I'm taking drivers ed next month...do you guys think I should buy a supercharger or learn to drive a standard transmission? My car is a manual of course, but I really think I need something faster ASAP.
I plan on becoming a pilot soon. Should I buy a Learjet or hold out for the space shuttle? Thanks for the help guys.
Amazing that this thread has lasted.
The OP asked for and IMHO has gotten sage advice regarding adding a simple RDS to his carbine that is being used in a HD role.
I applaud a new member who instead of just looking at a bunch of glossy pics of weapons with gadgets and gizmos on them, seeks out guidance, instead of just wasting money on crap that he doesn't need or know how to use.
Instead, the OP is seeking out guidance on what the best steps would be for him to take after he has ALREADY been working on his own shooting irons, AND he is also seeking out professional instruction. Its MUCH more than I can say for most newcomers to this site and newcomers to shooting in general.
He's been addressed. Let's please move forward.
Otherwise, we'll be subjected to some new horror of an obscure automotive metaphor involving clogged filters or references to top-dead-center.
I'm not prepared for that kind of pressure....
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9980/tweekr.jpg
Here's what most people do when they get an AR and they're new to the thing... or new to guns period.
BOLT a bunch of shit to the gun rather than figure how to use what they have. Just because Pat Rogers gets kick backs to tell you that YOU NEED to have a Red Dot, doesn't make it so. :eek:
I don't even have to take markm off of ignore to predict what his post consists of...
disparaging remarks about Pat Rogers
more admonishments to avoid optics
no factual, beneficial, or supportive data
How'd I do?
Here's what most people do when they get an AR and they're new to the thing... or new to guns period.
BOLT a bunch of shit to the gun rather than figure how to use what they have. Just because Pat Rogers gets kick backs to tell you that YOU NEED to have a Red Dot, doesn't make it so. :eek:
Why don't you quit with the drive by's on Pat Rogers? Have you even met the man? Kick back's, really? Can you prove that?
Now, how about answering the question? What advantage do iron sights have in teh real world?
I suppose the Army is getting kcikbacks also?
Bob
Deadeye0331
05-17-11, 11:52
If this is your primary HD weapon I'd go with the optic. Iron sights are great for learning marksmanship fundamentals but as others have said Marksmanship and CQB are not the same thing.
When you are defending your home and family at 3AM some day, I guarantee you will not be thinking "breath,relax,aim,sight,squeeze". It will go more like "bad guy Bang!" If you are lucky you may have time to reference the front sight tower or red dot, but at in home ranges natural point of aim is going to be a big part of getting rounds on target. RDS are better equipped for that kind of shooting.
Here's what most people do when they get an AR and they're new to the thing... or new to guns period.
BOLT a bunch of shit to the gun rather than figure how to use what they have. Just because Pat Rogers gets kick backs to tell you that YOU NEED to have a Red Dot, doesn't make it so. :eek:
You are walking a very fine line thats probably NOT worth the jabs in the long run... Unless you have hard evidence of the above, it would be very wise to cease and desist from further comments in an open forum where you could be held liable for your words.
Do as you wish but be aware that you are walking a tight rope, not to mention its a bit grade school and diminishes your credibility in other areas.
And FWIW I have never trained with Pat but I hope to at some point down the road when time permits.
diminishes your credibility in other areas.
there's a number less than zero? :blink:
Cylinder Head
05-17-11, 13:42
I don't even have to take markm off of ignore to predict what his post consists of...
disparaging remarks about Pat Rogers
more admonishments to avoid optics
no factual, beneficial, or supportive data
How'd I do?
Verbatim. Wow. Still, I enjoy markm's posts. He's funny.
Kuro Ookami
05-17-11, 15:11
I mean, why deprive yourself the opportunity to train with an RDS? You sound like you pretty much have the fundamentals down.
If he is lacking the fundamentals, and it sounds to me like he probably is, the sighting system he uses to learn then is unlikely to matter. The key is to get some quality training with a good instructor.
Yeah, learning fundamentals before adding performance enhancers is completely unrelated to this thread. Hey guys, I plan on starting a weight lifting program soon. What kind of 'roids should I use with my first cycle? I want to be really strong.
I think someone is missing the point entirely.
Since when is a RDS a "performance enhancer" and not a basic piece of equipment for a fighting rifle?
Here's what most people do when they get an AR and they're new to the thing... or new to guns period.
BOLT a bunch of shit to the gun rather than figure how to use what they have. Just because Pat Rogers gets kick backs to tell you that YOU NEED to have a Red Dot, doesn't make it so. :eek:
And of course Pat Rogers is the only instructor out there who advocates Red Dot Optics, isn't he?
It's not like the US Army Uses them.
Oh, wait, they do and have ordered or bought over a million variations fo the Aimpoints.
Well, anyway, it's not like any Special Ops groups use RDS.
Oh, wait, they were among the first users for the obvious advantages that RDS provide.
I don't even have to take markm off of ignore to predict what his post consists of...
disparaging remarks about Pat Rogers
more admonishments to avoid optics
no factual, beneficial, or supportive data
How'd I do?
You're clearly psychic.
You need to replace the yellow visor with the guilded turban of Carmac the Magnificent.
http://philly.theoffside.com/files/2009/11/jccarnac.jpg
Why don't you quit with the drive by's on Pat Rogers? Have you even met the man? Kick back's, really? Can you prove that?
I think Pat Rogers smacked MarkM's peepee online once and he hasn't gotten over it.
Let me offer a little perspective. Optics can be great tools. And, they definitely have their place. But, I also understand some of the other comments I have read.
I know many of us have seen AR pics posted here with every imaginable add on in place with owners who don't even know how to remove the extractor or the basic manual of arms.
People get wrapped up in all kinds of gadgets and widgets yet they can't even describe the cycle of operation or understand how it works.
I think it is always prudent to be proficient with iron sights first and foremost. Not saying you can't get an RDS or whatever other optic, just that you shouldn't rely on it 100%.
That means having a front and rear sight properly zeroed and understanding how your optics work.
I don't think anyone is against a new person learning to use the iron sights. If the optic's cost is an issue, the first time buyer is much better off buying a quality AR without an optic and adding the Red dot sight at another time as opposed to scimping on the AR to be able to buy the gun and optic.
Larry Vickers is on record for advising people not having a RDS on their AR to do whatever it takes to get one.
As for MarkM--like him or hate him, it's hard to deny that his remarks are often humerous. If you want to have some real fun, mention to him LW . . . ah, never mind.
I agree in the need to learn to use iron sights. I see no reason, and have yet to hear a good one, in the need the learn them first
Bob
IMHO- FUNDAMENTALS
I agree in the need to learn to use iron sights. I see no reason, and have yet to hear a good one, in the need the learn them first
Bob
Sweet Jesus, can't you get a RDS on a QD mount? It's a good enough zero for home defense. Then you can go to the range, class, wherever and shoot both ways. Not having the quickest target acquisition system possible for an HD gun just doesn't make sense to me. Further, what's to say that an RDS precludes training or practice rounds? For some people, time is the limiting factor rather than funds.
There's could be a decent reason why all the competition scoring separates iron sights from optics...
Other than learning how to shoot with open sights, what other fundamentals are precluded by the use of optics? Seems like you can work on grip, stance, trigger control, and everything else just as well with RDS as you can with irons.
Just my worthless semi-FNG opinion.
OP if you want to run irons do it. You don't need a RDS.
Rob lack if a RDS and a $300 trigger is not going to cause the OP to shoot himself in the foot. Not sure where you were going with that.
OP If you think you're going to be engaging people inside your house across the bedroom you don't need any sight. Across the bedroom in my house is 10-15 feet. That is down and dirty and point and shoot territory. Also with a white light on your gun you will be able to see your target and shoot when/if necessary. You can nit just shoot the first face you see. I don't think you will be shooting groups of smelly bearded men.
Rob what kind of prior service members are not being taught to use their irons? That is a disgusting lack of leadership and scary. I hope they're not in the Combat arms. I have a buddy who was in the Navy who said he only shot .22 rifles in the Navy. That surprised me.
RDS are great. I have a pair of them. I also think they help new shooters. Irons however are required equipment and so is their use.
OP
Get and run what You want not what others want. If you can afford it I'd suggest you get an Aimpoint they're simply an awesome piece of gear but they are by no means required. You can defend yourself and family with out one.
This is about you and your needs.
Good luck!
Crow Hunter
05-27-11, 16:17
I started shooting with buckhorn sights on a Daisy BB gun more years ago than I care to think about. :( I now shoot a 6920 with a Aimpoint M4s, which has only happened in the last year or so. Prior to that I shot nothing but iron sights on my "cool guns". (ARs/AKs/M1As/Uzis)
Surprisingly enough, the fundamentals are still the same. The only thing that is different is having to align 2 points rather than 3 points.
I believe that RDS can help teach fundamentals faster than trying to learn with iron sights. Most people can learn:
1. Dot on target
2. Trigger control
3. Follow through
Faster than trying to learn:
1. Lollipop a target on the front sight
2. Center it in a circle, but use the small circle, not the large circle unless it is dark, or they are really close and you/they are moving
3. Trigger control
4. Follow through.
You eat an elephant one bite at a time and so, in my opinion, taking a few "bites" out makes it that much easier.
Taking out the "art" of aligning iron sights will allow someone to really focus on trigger control and follow through which are just as important as sight alignment to accurate shooting.
I notice when I am shooting my little .22 M&P with RDS versus turning it off and using the iron sights that I focus much more on the other fundamentals when using the RDS. Particularly when trying to hit that little 1" square flipper at 25-50 yards from different positions.
This is completely leaving out the fact that everyone is faster with a RDS than without and has better situational awareness without having to peer through and align a sight.
I would stay with irons for a while and save up for an optic. If you are fortunate enough to be able to shoot a few times a month, save on a box or two of ammo each training session and put the funds aside for an optic. If you are good with irons, you will most likely only get better with an optic. My personal favorite is my Eotech, but I ran a Tasco Propoint that I traded some gear for, for a while until I had the coin for the Eotech. The Tasco looked goofy, but it worked so who cares?
Fighter13B
05-30-11, 14:48
You must be an expert with iron sights first.
You must be an expert with iron sights first.
That adds alot, care to expand on that? Why?
Bob
Rob what kind of prior service members are not being taught to use their irons?
One was a combat engineer, the other I'm not sure of but I know he was combat arms and he was injured in Iraq by an IED.
Heavy Metal
05-30-11, 16:14
I'll have an article in SWAT next month or the month after about getting back to basics where I took a 3-day class with irons after years of optics use.
I ran thru a three day class last year irons only too. It involved moving targets and it was an obvious handicap on movers.
Heavy Metal
05-30-11, 16:18
And of course Pat Rogers is the only instructor out there who advocates Red Dot Optics, isn't he?
It's not like the US Army Uses them.
Oh, wait, they do and have ordered or bought over a million variations fo the Aimpoints.
Well, anyway, it's not like any Special Ops groups use RDS.
Oh, wait, they were among the first users for the obvious advantages that RDS provide.
I remember another well-know instructor whom I won't mention suggest selling your sister into prostitution to get one. Pat is hardly singular in his preference.
Crow Hunter
05-30-11, 20:10
In an addendum to my earlier comment. Just this weekend I had my 60 year old aunt on the range. She wanted to try out some guns. She isn't new to shooting but she hasn't shot much in many years.
She fired 3 guns.
Marlin 39
Glock with AA conversion
M&P 22 with PA M4 clone sight
I won't go into the gory details but the Marlin is by far the most accurate gun in the lot. She never once hit the target. I kept trying to show her the proper sight picture, never could get it. Same with the AA Glock.
I handed her the M&P, said just put the dot on the target and pull the trigger. Within 3 shots she was hitting the flipper 2 out of 3 times. She got better as she shot it as I was telling her to squeeze the trigger and hold it.
As an aside, 4 hours after that I plugged a half grown cottontail at 67 yards (lasered it after the shot) from sitting with the Marlin that my brother shot at twice and missed. :ph34r:
Full disclosure:
Of course, afterwards, trying to be cool, I shot at another one at 15 yards with my 6920 and missed 2 times... Cottontails don't have hairlines to aim at... I obviously need to work on my close game. My mother is still griping at me, "How did you miss it so close and hit that one so far away, why didn't you use the 'normal' gun?":(
Ah, the fun and frustration of pest control.
One was a combat engineer, the other I'm not sure of but I know he was combat arms and he was injured in Iraq by an IED.
Its been over 20 years for me but I know the Marine Corps was serious about every Marine being a Rifleman first. It sounds like it is just as important these days. I know engineers were in the thick of it in the Battle for Falujiah.
I believe the fundamentals of shooting are the same regardless of if its a rifle or a pistol. (Shotguns are a bit different)
I shot NRA Pistol/"Bullseye"/2700 for several years with iron sights and when I moved to a red dot (when they got smaller and more popular) and everything was a lot easier and quicker and my scores improved. I thought, I should have done this from the start.
But the irons probably helped me get to level I was at. I am relatively new to AR 15's but I was able to shoot accurately with my rifle almost from the start as the fundamentals I learned before carry through.
I would recommend shooting your AR or any rifle with irons from the bench until you develop the fundamentals and can hold a tight group. Then, when your allowed by your club gradually move to prone, kneeling, and standing until you can consistently hold a softball sized group standing at 50 yards with irons. Then worry about a red dot and doing "tactical stuff".
I say this partly because I just took a Carbine class last week and was horrified my the lack of basic marksmanship from some people. I came away feeling that there should be some type or qualifier as I feel this is a safety issue.
kaltesherz
05-31-11, 00:10
Rob what kind of prior service members are not being taught to use their irons?
I'm pretty sure the Army only teaches combat arms to use irons in basic training these days, everyone else uses M68's from day one. As an 11B we had to qualify on irons before we got RDS, but after that we were told by our DS that would be our last time using irons on a qual... and they were right. Only other time I shot irons on an M4 was to zero our BUIS at 25m.
This is completely leaving out the fact that everyone is faster with a RDS than without and has better situational awareness without having to peer through and align a sight.
Any shooter worth his ass can shoot just as fast with Irons.. if not faster than with an electronic.
Even good old KevinB of KAC, and a guy with ACTUAL experience admitted that he's just as fast with irons. It was just that the RDS was easier to use in the adverse conditions of real combat... smoke, dust, darkness, etc.
It just aint worth the effort!
I would take the formal training with the RDS. Get a LaRue QD mount. Then you can work on shooting irons whenever you want.
I'm pretty sure the Army only teaches combat arms to use irons in basic training these days, everyone else uses M68's from day one. As an 11B we had to qualify on irons before we got RDS, but after that we were told by our DS that would be our last time using irons on a qual... and they were right. Only other time I shot irons on an M4 was to zero our BUIS at 25m.
Thanks. That is interesting.
Crow Hunter
06-01-11, 08:00
Any shooter worth his ass can shoot just as fast with Irons.. if not faster than with an electronic.
Even good old KevinB of KAC, and a guy with ACTUAL experience admitted that he's just as fast with irons. It was just that the RDS was easier to use in the adverse conditions of real combat... smoke, dust, darkness, etc.
Apparently I need to practice then.
I personally can't take a rifle from low ready and get hits on a target as quickly with iron sights as I can with a RDS. None of the guys that I shoot with can do it. Granted, we are all dirt shooters and none of us has any experience shooting anything other than animals and targets. (And hope to keep it that way)
Now I am referring to 1 to 2 inch diameter targets at 10-20 yards, not full sized humanoid targets.
If you are talking about a COM hit on a humanoid target at 10 yards away, I could see being just as fast with Irons as anything.
I am going shooting this weekend and I will see what differences I can see at closer and longer ranges.
Any tips for getting faster?
Any shooter worth his ass can shoot just as fast with Irons.. if not faster than with an electronic.
Even good old KevinB of KAC, and a guy with ACTUAL experience admitted that he's just as fast with irons. It was just that the RDS was easier to use in the adverse conditions of real combat... smoke, dust, darkness, etc.
So, by your own admission, or at least KevinB's, they have a place in "real world combat" conditions, yea....those damned Aimpoints.
I've shot with KevinB and he's a great guy, and his word carries a lot of weight with me, but...
Anyone can shoot fast with irons, up close and on the flat range.
Do this,.... jock up in full heavy armor with plate, helmet, full assault load, gloves, goggles, and any advanced weapons, breaching tools, or other kit, and run an O course. Now put a ProMask on and do it, or NOD'ss. RDS's give you the advantage in shooting under conditions like this, from unconventional shooting positions.
I've never been taught to ignore the fundamentals of marksmanship, because I'm using a RDS optic. And it simply is not true. The RDS merely streamlines the process. Allowing the shooter, especially a new shooter, to concentrate on the single most important fundamental, proper trigger manipulation.
This is becoming like all the "fat, old, bald guy's" on a certain 1911 centric forum that declare "no real combat 1911 has a beaver-tail" or extended thumb safety or adjustable sight's. I got news for them and their antiquated romantic ideas.....they do.
The same type of hue and cry goes up, every time even the thought of an advancement in firearms technology is made.
Troops were given single shot rifles for fear of wasting ammo, the the Spanish American war happened, and things changed.
Marines resisted the M1 Rifle, then they went to war again, and thought, hey maybe 8 rounds of semi auto fire is better then 5 of bolt action.
Despite all the grumblings, from the arm chair warriors, the US Army continues to stack johnny jihad like cord wood with Aimpoint equipped carbines.
I find it hard to believe that the overwhelming majority of tactical firearms instructors, Special operations Soldiers, SWAT and SRT type teams, etc. have all been duped by the same snake oil salesman.
Maybe, just maybe there's something to it;)
Bob
One concession I'll make to the irons starters...
Most people that buy an AR don't have clue one about what they're really going to do with it, and generally are lying to themselves about why they want it.
The good news about starting with irons is that they are cheap and generally come with the carbine. Taking a class with them and participating in other shooting events with them gets you started for less and lets you see what other people are using, why, and how. Once you've established what you're REALLY doing with the gun you'll have a better idea about what optic type you need for your application. What this *may* accomplish is saving you buying the wrong optic for your needs. If you find yourself doing nothing but sitting at the bench and shooting at bullseyes from a rest you may find that your $500 is better spent on a Leupold hunting scope than it is on an Aimpoint.
Kyle Defoor's thoughts on RDS vs Irons, after running irons for a year:
http://www.kyledefoor.com/2010/12/iron-sights-for-almost-year.html
I don't see any specific reason to master irons before moving on. It seems like an outdated concept with the reliability, durability and advantages of an Aimpoint. Irons should be trained, but mastery is overkill to me.
Kyle Defoor's thoughts on RDS vs Irons, after running irons for a year:
http://www.kyledefoor.com/2010/12/iron-sights-for-almost-year.ohtml
I don't see any specific reason to master irons before moving on. It seems like an outdated concept with the reliability, durability and advantages of an Aimpoint. Irons should be trained, but mastery is overkill to me.
That was an excellent article. Thanks for the link. He hit so many of the things we've discussed here. Speed, accuracy eyesight and distance to the target were some of the big ones. I liked the comment of red dots shining and being king from 15-100 yards.
OP I'd just get an optic, they have a definite edge over irons. I grew up on irons so when I got my first AR, I got a feel for the irons then got an Aimpoint pretty soon after.
Kyle Defoor's thoughts on RDS vs Irons, after running irons for a year:
http://www.kyledefoor.com/2010/12/iron-sights-for-almost-year.html
I don't see any specific reason to master irons before moving on. It seems like an outdated concept with the reliability, durability and advantages of an Aimpoint. Irons should be trained, but mastery is overkill to me.
Awesome article
As a relative newbie, I must say that the whole deal about learning irons first is quite dogmatic--which is no surprise to anyone here.
I never really gave the topic question until I was debating whether I should invest in a scope for my .22 bolt trainer. I decided that I will scope my gun, but after I get a self-loading rifle. All my current weapons use a turnbolt, so I guess I'm starting at the lowest possible place. More experienced shooters told me that a scope presents its own challenges, and my guess is that this applies more or less to the RDSs.
What I realized is that there are different kinds of shooting, the precise and the "combat effective" or "good enough." I think a good shooter should know about both and when a certain type is called for and so forth.
Anyway, thanks M4C members for helping to break down this dogma. Like always many threads here have changed my way of thinking, and I try to pass it on to others. Keep up the good work.
Virtually all of my shooting is done with traditional tangent sights (think AK sights). To me even a rear peep sight is like a small luxury, so I hope being a relatively decent marksman with tangent sights pays off somehow later. The only perk I know so far about starting waay at the bottom is that Mosin recoil isn't that bad, and semi-autos don't have recoil whatsoever.:cool:
Use both, train in the same manner you would fight for your life. Become proficient with both just in case your optics fails. Have the optic in case you need it might give you that extra edge you need to come out on top.
friendlyfireisnt
09-25-11, 14:36
Any shooter worth his ass can shoot just as fast with Irons.. if not faster than with an electronic.
Even good old KevinB of KAC, and a guy with ACTUAL experience admitted that he's just as fast with irons. It was just that the RDS was easier to use in the adverse conditions of real combat... smoke, dust, darkness, etc.
Sounds like a solid reason to have a RDS for a HD weapon in my mind. ;)
Really, I see this debate as the difference between using what can work and what can work better.
Example: I once confronted a burglar attempting to gain entry into my residence. I confronted him while carrying a single action Ruger revolver in .357 magnum.
Did it work? Yup. He jumped from his 2nd story perch and ran very quickly away. Am I under the illusion that it was the best tool for the situation? Hell no. It was what I had and what I was comfortable with. Had I needed to pull the trigger, I have no doubt I could have hit my target accurately, and put him down, but to say it's the best choice would be wrong.
If that situation were to happen now, there would be significant differences, purely based on my belief that in a situation where my life, or the life of my family members could possibly be at risk, I want every possible advantage possible.
Today, a burglar would have to get through the GSD, and would face me while I am carrying my defensive carbine which has a RDS and a light. That setup works better and gives me more advantages over what I had used previously.
I think people who are new to the AR-15 should most definitely learn to shoot with irons. I feel it's a critical skill to have.
But I see no reason why a person should hamstring themselves by waiting to get a RDS when that piece of equipment can grant them a significant advantage in a stressful, dangerous situation where they can use every possible advantage.
as long as you go with a good quality optic it should be a good addition to whatever "battle" rifle
run with the crowd, get a nice holo sight with a buis. learning how to engage your target with the buis is the same conceptual marksmanship skills as the standard carrying handle.
Use both, train in the same manner you would fight for your life. Become proficient with both just in case your optics fails. Have the optic in case you need it might give you that extra edge you need to come out on top.
I agree. My social carbines will always have red dot sights and BUIS. I see no reason for new shooters to handicap themselves for a while until they master one type of sighting system. Get both, learn both.
Sounds like a solid reason to have a RDS for a HD weapon in my mind. ;)
Possibly in certain circumstances. But the added bulk and clutter of an RDS isn't worth the outside chance that there'd be some slight advantage to the dot.
I've been wanting to buy a C3 or a Pro to play with a little to see if I could grow to like it on an AR... I just keep finding better ways to spend the 400 bucks though..
I went with irons first because I had such a difficult time with them. It wasnt intuitive to me to use a circle as opposed to a notch, which is what I learned on. After a took a class with irons only, I then took another with a RDS. Im far from skilled, but I also opt out of having a RDS on my HD carbine. I did pick up a PRO last week and really like it compared to my xps2; but both are far too chunky to me for my HD gun.
60buckscash
11-16-11, 22:45
I understand the romance of Iron sites out to 200yds on a bulls eye, but you are talking about low light up close shooting. I vote for the RDS. Keep it 1x and have a set of BUIS that you can cowitness.
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