View Full Version : Service Pistol for a 1911 Fan
I am a big 1911 fan. I have shot them since I was young. Bulls-eye, plate and pin matches, etc. I also have a 4" for a carry gun. I love the ergonomics, the triggers, and the single action design...as most 1911 fans do.
My question is for 1911 fans who also have full sized modern service pistols and have extensive experience with all.
What service pistols do you recommend for a person who is used to and adores the 1911? (which would disappoint me the least;) )
I am looking to use it for IDPA and home defense. It doesn't need to be a .45. I would consider a 9mm.
I am basically looking for some direction to start my search (and research).
So you know:
I don't have extensive experience with non 1911's semi-autos except for my Browning High Power. I have limited experience with Glocks several years ago. I couldn't stand the toy like trigger.
I couldn't find a similar thread, so if there is one please direct me. Thanks.
I think you will find most of the people on this site prefer Glocks, since there doesn't appear to be many others out there that can match their reliability and simplicity.
If you want cocked and locked, I guess I would look at the HK45 or HK P30. Both are highly regarded it seems and I personally like the feel better than the USP.
Otherwise the offerings from Glock, S&W (M&P), Sig, and whatever other "usual suspects" will likely all be suggested by somebody in this thread at some point.
If you would consider a 5" 1911, I would look at something like the Springfield Loaded, MC Operator, or TRP.
As mentioned P30 with safety or HK 45, parts are expensive and accessories can be hard to get. M&P with thumb safety, but the trigger will be no where near a 1911, even with APEX gear; M&P is gaining popularity and parts and accessories are becoming almost as easy to get as a glock.
a glock will be nothing like a 1911, grip angles are different, triggers completely different and no safety. The upside to a glock is they are everywhere, cheap, parts are plentiful and you can get accessories such as holsters from any maker.
If you want to stick with a single action the SAO sig 220 isn't a bad option. Some haven't had the best of luck with Sig's quality or durability these days, but the last few I have purchased have been stellar guns. The DA/SA versions aren't half bad either but then you have to practice a bit more for that DA transition.
My advice would be to try before you buy if you can. Good luck.
Nephrology
05-17-11, 03:30
CZ also makes some good pistols that can be carried cocked and locked. The 75 and SP-01 are both great pistols. They will probably "feel" to you most like your 1911s.
Are you looking for a complete departure from the 1911 or something just like it? Do you have to have a thumb safety? Same grip angle? Polymer, steel, aluminum ?
I handled a CZ the other day at the club and it felt nice but I didn't get to fire it. I saw a few HK's out there too so I will inquire at the next IDPA shoot.
It would take a lot to sell me on a Glock. I really wish I could grow to like them and I understand their upside. But for the reasons Rathos mentioned I really felt like they were the "anti-1911". Plus I don't think I could ever get used to the triggers. The worst triggers I have ever felt were on Glocks and I'm not sure if they can be improved much. And you definitely can't improve their looks:p
I have considered another 5" 1911 though I wanted to look into something else. If my search takes me too much over $1000 I will be inclined to go with another 1911.
I was looking at Springfield as they seem to be the way to go. Which is ironic because when I bought my last 1911 10 years ago Kimber was all the rage. My 4" is a Kimber Compact series I. It has probably 2000 rounds through it and has always ran flawlessly. Also will feed anything including SWC target loads.
M&P .45 would work nicely.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/cigardad/MP2.jpg
Are you looking for a complete departure from the 1911 or something just like it? Do you have to have a thumb safety? Same grip angle? Polymer, steel, aluminum ?
I will look at anything but wanted to hear what guys who started with 1911's seem to like. Polymer guns do feel toy like to me but I want to keep an open mind. Thumb safeties do make me feel better.
Brother Rat
05-17-11, 08:21
I was able to transition pretty seamlessly from a 1911 to an M&P9. YMMV of course.
mike benedict
05-17-11, 09:08
As a long time 1911 shooter I now carry either an M&P (usually a .45 compact) or a Glock 19. They are both fine carry pistols and utterly reliable.
which would disappoint me the least
You need to expand on this - what features of 1911 you want to reproduce.
Trigger feel - actually Glock is closest; you can have trigger job done to make it even better. Some say David Bowie's trigger work on M&P is very close to 1911.
Cocked and locked - HK.
Manual safety - MP, HK; neither really reproduce the position of 1911's safety. MP is closer.
Bore axis - Glock, MP.
Here is my take. I started with 1911, and I still have, like and shoot them. I also shoot polymer guns at about 2:1 rate over 1911. Don't try to find something that mimics 1911. It is futile in a big scheme of things. Appreciate polymer pistols for what they are and take them as is. Learning to shoot them well made me a better shooter overall.
Never tried an M&P but I can agree that the HK, Sig and Glock are very different from the 1911. I agree with YVK. I think the Glock trigger is closest too, especially the reset. I changed my HK45 to LEM because the thumb safety didn't work for me after being used the 1911. Strangely it took me buying and selling 4 Glock before I finally got it. I also prefer no safety and 1 set trigger pull where I used to be worried about that set up
jstephens202
05-17-11, 10:48
If you want cocked and locked, I guess I would look at the HK45 or HK P30. Both are highly regarded it seems and I personally like the feel better than the USP.
Otherwise the offerings from Glock, S&W (M&P), Sig, and whatever other "usual suspects" will likely all be suggested by somebody in this thread at some point.
If you would consider a 5" 1911, I would look at something like the Springfield Loaded, MC Operator, or TRP.
+1 on the Springers. I have 2 Loaded models(one stainless, one parkerized) and use them for duty/off-duty every day, even in summer. 1911's just feel better to me than anything else, although my Glock 36 gets called upon when I can use a 1911 and my G27 is my back up gun. IMHO, try different platforms and settle on the one YOU shoot the best and are most comfortable with....
Go over to 10-8performance.com and read Hilton Yams articles regarding 1911's for duty use. That's always a good place to start, if you are looking to stick with a 1911. All 1911 are not created equal, even with in brands. 4" guns are not known for their reliability, and 2000 rounds is not much.
As to other guns, interestingly, most 1911 guys, prefer the Glock, M&P or HK's as alternatives, or straight out replacements.
By 1911 guy, I mean guys, that are true operators, and have been issued modern high quality 1911's, used them extensively in combat and training, have recognized their pluses and minus' and make intelligent informed decisions.
As opposed to "1911 guys" that have a blind allegiance to a design, regardless of its proven shortcoming's. Rarely shoot them, make decisions based on looks, romance, and emotion, and who's best argument for their favorite design, comes down to "dead nazi's".
Bob
Your best bet would be a modern design like an M&P w/ambi-safety in any caliber or HK P30/HK45; skip other "old school" pistols like the Hi-Power or CZ's.
In fact, after 25 years carrying a 1911 as my primary pistol, I switched to the M&P45 w/ambi-safety this past January. Surprisingly, during our most recent qual, I shot the M&P45 better than the G19 I have been using for the past 15 years. I like that the M&P is perfectly usable right out of the box, just like a Glock; I also enjoy that I can easily modify M&P's into a modern, modular, reliable, inexpensive alternative to a 1911. The 1911 style grip angle and manual safety are major reasons why I really like the M&P. I have fired a lot of rounds out of M&P's without ANY problems; the M&P's keep getting better with each minor improvement the factory introduces. Likewise, the Apex parts work very well. Without a doubt I prefer the M&P trigger with Apex Duty Kit to any Glock trigger I have ever used.
Like I tell all 1911 shooters transitioning to the M&P--if you want to shoot cheap ammo with a low recoiling pistol, get an M&P9 w/ambi safety; if you want to stay with .45 ACP because you have a plentiful supply of ammo in that caliber, get an M&P45 w/ambi safety; if you get free .40 ammo at work or are a patrol officer around a lot of vehicles, go with an M&P40 w/ambi safety.
In some ways HK's are like 1911's--great pistols with tremendous accuracy and durability potential for individual owners, but not pistols I would want to issue and have to service at an agency. The M&P and Glock are FAR easier to support from an agency armorer perspective...
Nephrology
05-17-11, 11:26
Your best bet would be a modern design like an M&P w/ambi-safety in any caliber or HK P30/HK45; skip other "old school" pistols like the Hi-Power or CZ's.
In fact, after 25 years carrying a 1911 as my primary pistol, I switched to the M&P45 w/ambi-safety this past January. Surprisingly, during our most recent qual, I shot the M&P45 better than the G19 I have been using for the past 15 years. I like that the M&P is perfectly usable right out of the box, just like a Glock; I also enjoy that I can easily modify M&P's into a modern, modular, reliable, inexpensive alternative to a 1911. The 1911 style grip angle and manual safety are major reasons why I really like the M&P. I have fired a lot of rounds out of M&P's without ANY problems; the M&P's keep getting better with each minor improvement the factory introduces. Likewise, the Apex parts work very well. Without a doubt I prefer the M&P trigger with Apex Duty Kit to any Glock trigger I have ever used.
Like I tell all 1911 shooters transitioning to the M&P--if you want to shoot cheap ammo with a low recoiling pistol, get an M&P9 w/ambi safety; if you want to stay with .45 ACP because you have a plentiful supply of ammo in that caliber, get an M&P45 w/ambi safety; if you get free .40 ammo at work or are a patrol officer around a lot of vehicles, go with an M&P40 w/ambi safety.
In some ways HK's are like 1911's--great pistols with tremendous accuracy and durability potential for individual owners, but not pistols I would want to issue and have to service at an agency. The M&P and Glock are FAR easier to support from an agency armorer perspective...
Do you find the trigger to be a difficult transition at all? That was principally why I recommended CZs - they have very similar single action triggers, and the double-action trigger pull never has to be used.
That said I have never tried an M&P with the Apex duty kit on it. If I were to move back to .45, though, I would look at the M&P first.
everyone is different of course but after starting with 1911's and revolvers (pretty much all that was around when I started pistol shooting about 30 years ago) I have pretty much ran the gamut in shooting and or owning everything from beretta sig glock hk smith and wesson etc. When the smoke cleared, I am left with 1911's smith revolvers and glocks. I fonud the glocks the most comfortable "modern" auto for me. I did not care for the H&K USP despite the cocked and locked option, and prefer the consistent trigger pull of the glock as compared to the sa/da transition such as in beretta or sig.
Cylinder Head
05-17-11, 13:13
The HK45 was designed by 1911 guys (LAV and Hackathorn) as a modern poly "cousin" to the 1911. In SA mode with a well broken-in trigger it is pretty damn good.
something to consider:
fair triggers:
M&P factory triggers are mediocre (although newer ones are getting decent), but still plenty usable. First time I shot an M&P9, I shot a then best time on the IDPA classifier with stock 7#-ish trigger (had been using a 1911 until then).
very good triggers:
M&Ps with APEX triggers are good....I use the DCAEK in my personal guns, some friends do as well. This does everything I need...quite well (smooth, short clicky reset, crisp, etc). Highly recommend.
great triggers:
M&P triggers worked over by guys like David Bowie, Dan Burwell, etc.....WOW! you'd never believe you were using a striker fired gun. They feel fantastic, and for any practical purpose equal to 1911 triggers in my opinion (granted, I see no use for 20 ounce triggers). Also, they can be tuned to your preference for pretravel/overtravel/reset, etc.
M&P pistols are great platforms if you want a great trigger.
The CZ 75 and Browning Hi Power come quite close to the ergonomics and feel of a 1911.
Unfortunately both the Hi-Power and CZ are older designs that lack the ease of maintenance, modularity, adjustability, and lightweight of newer pistols.
Thanks for the responces thus far; it is exactly what I was looking for. I am glad to hear the triggers can succesfully be improved on most of these pistols.
As for Glocks, I may have to give them a second look. My experience with them came from back in my bachelor days when I had a cop (and a lawyer:eek:) as roomates.
I shot his issue Glock 17 and was anything but impressed. That being said the heavy, crappy trigger pull may have been a department addition.
Is it safe to say HK's are the best equivalent as far as accuracy and triggers? I checked one out tonight (couldn't dry fire) and were surprised at the price difference. I was inclined to think at $1200 I'd rather have a 1911 unless the HK was that good.
Is it safe to say HK's are the best equivalent as far as accuracy and triggers? I checked one out tonight (couldn't dry fire) and were surprised at the price difference. I was inclined to think at $1200 I'd rather have a 1911 unless the HK was that good.
HK is that good plus some.
1911 is something I would collect. The HK is something I could trust my life on.
You're probably gonna have to get away from comparing everything to a 1911 trigger.
The trigger, is about the sole saving grace of that gun, and is what has kept it around so long. They can be tuned to be very nice, the knowledge base on tuning them is very deep.
Glock's, M&P's & HK's all have their own benefits. These need to weighed against what you want out of your own gun. IF you continue to compare their triggers to a semi-custom 12-1500 dollar 1911, your probably gonna continue to be disappointed.
Those three can all have their triggers cleaned up nicely, some quite easily. They will be very shootable guns, with the addition of their lighter weight, easier maintenance, and higher capacity.
I've seen some very good shooting done, with a stock G22, with an 8 pound connector, that varies from shot to shot, from anywhere from 7 to over 10 pounds, depending on the gun.
Bob
Is it safe to say HK's are the best equivalent as far as accuracy and triggers? .
Accuracy yes, triggers no. With few exceptions, HKs triggers have long resets. Many have long take-ups as a part of design. DA/SA versions generally have heavy first pulls by design. It is absolutely correctly stated above that you'd have to stop comparing those to a 1911 trigger.
There is one other thing to consider. Not everybody thinks that 1911 trigger is what other triggers should be judged against. Yes, I know that it sounds like heresy, but if you start thinking out of the usual box and listening to opposing opinions, you might find that statement is not without merits...
Thanks for the responces thus far; it is exactly what I was looking for. I am glad to hear the triggers can succesfully be improved on most of these pistols.
As for Glocks, I may have to give them a second look. My experience with them came from back in my bachelor days when I had a cop (and a lawyer:eek:) as roomates.
I shot his issue Glock 17 and was anything but impressed. That being said the heavy, crappy trigger pull may have been a department addition.
Is it safe to say HK's are the best equivalent as far as accuracy and triggers? I checked one out tonight (couldn't dry fire) and were surprised at the price difference. I was inclined to think at $1200 I'd rather have a 1911 unless the HK was that good.
I like the light LEM trigger HKs very much. The good thing for me about a Glock trigger is the short take up, consistent pull without the complication of a safety and the audible and tactile, short reset.
I would go handle and dry fire
HK45, about 1k
M&P 9mm PRO. about $650
FNP 45, about $650
HK45 is just plain awesome. May Need to change to Night Sights
M&P sight, grip and trigger are fantastic. Hard to beat.
FNP, like HK can run cocked and locked. Kinda bulky and grip pretty large but manageable.
Pistol Shooter
05-18-11, 15:15
You're probably gonna have to get away from comparing everything to a 1911 trigger.
The trigger, is about the sole saving grace of that gun, and is what has kept it around so long. They can be tuned to be very nice, the knowledge base on tuning them is very deep.
Glock's, M&P's & HK's all have their own benefits. These need to weighed against what you want out of your own gun. IF you continue to compare their triggers to a semi-custom 12-1500 dollar 1911, your probably gonna continue to be disappointed.
Those three can all have their triggers cleaned up nicely, some quite easily. They will be very shootable guns, with the addition of their lighter weight, easier maintenance, and higher capacity.
I've seen some very good shooting done, with a stock G22, with an 8 pound connector, that varies from shot to shot, from anywhere from 7 to over 10 pounds, depending on the gun.
Bob
Great post, well said Bob. :)
The 1911 trigger is in a class by itself.
OldState, if you're going to transition from a 1911 to an HK, M&P, Glock, etc. you'll have to accept the fact that that their triggers are very different than what you're used to and I'm sure you realize this.
If you don't mind my asking, why do you want to get away from your 1911's and BHP's ?
Pappabear mentioned it in his post but have you looked at any of the offerings from FN?
Great post, well said Bob. :)
The 1911 trigger is in a class by itself.
OldState, if you're going to transition from a 1911 to an HK, M&P, Glock, etc. you'll have to accept the fact that that their triggers are very different than what you're used to and I'm sure you realize this.
If you don't mind my asking, why do you want to get away from your 1911's and BHP's ?
I do realize there is nothing that mimics a 1911 trigger. I just wanted to get some opinions on those that I would be the least disappointed with;)
As to why I'm looking into non 1911's; well probably because I've been on m4carbine.net too much.
Also, I don't own a "practical" or "combat" full sized 1911, just accurized target guns that I'm not willing to use for IDPA etc. My BHP is an older Belgian one in near mint condition so I don't want to beat on it either.
My first thought was to go for another 1911, but from what I'm reading it seems you need to spend a ton to get a reliable pistol these days. With the exception of the HK, it looks like I could have a reliable pistol for 1/3 or 1/4 the $$ though I will have to sacrifice a bit. I want to be able to trust the gun in a defensive situation if need be and I don't want to feel bad about beating on it.
PLUS I don't own a service pistol so there is the curiosity thing too.
Are the recent offerings from Springfield or S&W, etc on par reliability wise with some of the popular service pistols previously recommended?
For a .45 pistol I would highly recommend the M&P45 from S&W. Superbly accurate and reliable, and it has the manual thumb safety available as an option. The Apex parts make it even better. For around $100 you can have a drop-in trigger job that comes as close to a 1911 in a polymer pistol as you can get. This option will give you a nearly perfect pistol for your stated requirements for under $750.00 if you shop around.
For a 9mm pistol I would recommend the Glock 17 or a HK P30 (LEM) in 9mm. The M&P9 (9mm) suffers from inconsistent accuracy. Apex is currently working on a fix but it aint gonna be cheap. I carry an M&P9 as my duty weapon and love the ergo's of the pistol and how it shoots, but accuracy out past 15 yards is lacking.
I would caution against trying to turn a traditional double action pistol with a safety/decocker lever like the double action HK45 or the FNP45 into a single action "cocked & locked" pistol as others have suggested. The decocker is too easy to activate when attempting to run it as a 1911 manual safety. Although I am not a 1911 owner, much like all of the other 1911 shooters I know, when I do shoot a 1911 I "ride" the safety and like to place positive downward pressure on the manual thumb safety to assist in obtaining my grip and recoil mitigation. Any time I have tried to shoot a HK or FNP pistol with the safety/decocker lever in this manner I would inadvertently activate the decocker at the worst possible time.
Avoid the Springfield XD's at all costs.
Pappabear mentioned it in his post but have you looked at any of the offerings from FN?
Yes, last night I had a chance to stop by a Bass Pro when I was away for business. They had trigger locks on all the pistols so I couldn't dry fire. They showed me some M&P's, Glocks, and some pistols from FN.
For a .45 pistol I would highly recommend the M&P45 from S&W. Superbly accurate and reliable, and it has the manual thumb safety as an option. The Apex parts make it even better. For around $100 you can have a drop-in trigger job that comes as close to a 1911 in a polymer pistol as you can get. This option will give you a nearly perfect pistol for your stated requirements for under $750.00 if you shop around.
Avoid the Springfield XD's at all costs.
I mentioned that I heard bad things about the Springfield XD's and the guy looked at me like I was crazy. :rolleyes:
The advantage of .45 for me is that I already reload for it (and have a lot of brass) though I could set myself up for 9mm without much investment.
I think I saw them do a drop in trigger on an M&P on "Shooting USA". I like the availabilty of aftermarket parts.
BTW, I was referring to the the 1911 offerings from S&W and Springfield in my last comment.
I dont even engage into conversations with gun store clerks. Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's sell A LOT of Springfield XD's. Probably more XD's than any other pistol they have available. That is likely the main factor in them not bad mouthing the XD's.
If you were still considering a 1911 based pistol, Hilton Yam of 10-8 Performance has been testing out the new "E" Series 1911 from S&W. While his has been less than perfect, his opinions and influence he has on this project with S&W is very encouraging...just not there yet.
All things considered, the M&P45 with the Apex DCAEK kit installed is very hard to beat regardless of the price point. I would see what Grant @ G&R Tactical has available in the M&P45 w/Apex kit installed. He is a site sponsor here and has good pricing on the M&P's.
Yes, last night I had a chance to stop by a Bass Pro when I was away for business. They had trigger locks on all the pistols so I couldn't dry fire. They showed me some M&P's, Glocks, and some pistols from FN.
I mentioned that I heard bad things about the Springfield XD's and the guy looked at me like I was crazy. :rolleyes:
The advantage of .45 for me is that I already reload for it (and have a lot of brass) though I could set myself up for 9mm without much investment.
I think I saw them do a drop in trigger on an M&P on "Shooting USA". I like the availabilty of aftermarket parts.
From what I'm reading Sigs are no longer GTG. No one has really mentioned them.
BTW, I was referring to the the 1911 offerings from S&W and Springfield in my last comment.
The only thing I ask at a gunshop is "How much?"
For 1911 info, visit 10-8performance and read Hiltons articles. Also 10-8 forums has a lot of good 1911 info. Its all centered around duty use though.
If you want a .45, I would go M&P and not look back.
Bob
I will be checking out 10-8 performance tonight. I was on the road and my company put a new security program on our computers which is blocking anything with guns.
As for the Bass Pro shop, I went there to kill time since it was near my hotel. I had to talk a little to the guy since I wanted him to show me some stuff.
crazymoose
05-18-11, 22:06
So you know:
I don't have extensive experience with non 1911's semi-autos except for my Browning High Power. I have limited experience with Glocks several years ago. I couldn't stand the toy like trigger.
I'm a pretty dedicated Glock and 1911 man. I own and shoot other pistols sometimes, but those are my workhorses.
The Glock trigger is a lot like the 1911 trigger where it counts for defensive shooting: relatively short pull, and crisp, distinct reset.
Once you learn the Glock trigger, it works very much like a 1911 trigger that has some pre-travel. In rapid fire, only release the trigger to the reset; very easy with both guns. In accuracy-oriented slow fire, stage the Glock trigger just like you would the 1911 trigger that has some pre-travel. The Glock's trigger will never be as nice as a good 1911's trigger, but you have to pay the piper somehow, and that's the cost of having a light, high capacity, very reliable, simple pistol that's damn near impervious to neglect when it comes to cleaning or lubrication.
crazymoose
05-18-11, 22:09
My first thought was to go for another 1911, but from what I'm reading it seems you need to spend a ton to get a reliable pistol these days.
Yes and no. For under a grand, you can get a 1911 that's more reliable than just about anything you'd get in the old days, especially if you plan on shooting hollow points. For about $1,400, you can get a TRP, which is a good, solid, accurate 1911. I have one, and it's a great pistol for the money. It is full of MIM parts that I watch like a hawk and will replace if they seem to be wearing unduly, and I'll replace them with better parts (already have a Vickers sear, hammer, and disconnector set aside for this). Where you really need to spend a ton is to get a 1911 that's as anywhere near as reliable and that has the long-term durability as the other options out there like the Glock and H&K. SIG, Beretta, and then Glock really raised the bar when it comes to what kind of reliability one should expect from a service auto.
If you already know how to maintain a 1911 and you already reload 45, why change??
I primarily shoot Glocks (9mm) and 1911s (45ACP) and I like my 1911s with a 4lb trigger and my Glocks with the factory 5.5lb setup. 1911s are my favorite guns, but I do believe that Glock built a better mousetrap.
I shoot steel, USPSA and IDPA with my carry guns and accuracy is the same with the 1911s and Glocks in these aplications.
Heres the most recent update on the S&W "E" Series 1911from Hilton Yam:http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=8mdo79bab&v=001MLAw4fjEPpUZCNZL8x2zK4kcKldGIR1OS2XW5cuU2Q1HiwlwRWTG8sRRhf6q30xM-348-EGEHkgas458sElscpVYW3NXew59EKiP5lLih6k%3D
Skip the XD and FN.
For .45 ACP modern pistols, it is the M&P45, HK45, and maybe the G21sf. For a former 1911 shooter, the M&P45 w/ambi pistol and Apex Duty Kit is clearly the way to go. You can purchase 2 M&P's for about the cost of 1 HK; M&P parts are readily available than HK, M&P is easier to service than HK, M&P has more sight options than HK.
I was issued my first 1911 in 1977. Issued and owned them for many years. People will typically answer your question M&P .45 or HK .45 as you have seen and those are good choices. But personally I think it is a mistake to assume that 1911 owners who want a polymer pistol must have one that is as close to a 1911 as possible. None really are for one thing. Also you may find that you like the crop of modern polymer pistols more than you expect. Your best bet is to rent various models and shoot them. I use a Glock 17 for carry and most everything else. It does everything I need it to and the out of the box trigger is just fine with me. I never fired a Glock until about 8 years ago and at that time I owned Wilson, Les Baer, and Ed Brown 1911's. If someone had told me one day I would own and shoot mostly Glock 9mms I would have told them they were crazy but I'm quite happy with the situation. I've gone round and round with M&P's in 9 and .45 and a little in .40. Always went back to Glocks because they just suit me better.
nickdrak thanks for the post on the e-series. My first thought after hearing about them was what would Hilton think of them.
BigBuckeye
05-29-11, 07:40
You should look at an XDM, I think it is superior to the M&P.
I recently purchased a M&P .45 and while I have no issues with it's reliability, the take down is pure Mickey Mouse.
I am surprised that any modern firearm that requires a special tool to take down and clean would get a "pass" on this forum.
As for me, I have all but decided to trade the M&P in on a 1911, they simply feel better in my hands. I am more accurate and comfortable with that platform and I just don't think I will ever get the same feeling with a plastic gun.
You should look at an XDM, I think it is superior to the M&P.
No one or agency seems to think so. What do you find "superior" about it?
I recently purchased a M&P .45 and while I have no issues with it's reliability, the take down is pure Mickey Mouse.
I am surprised that any modern firearm that requires a special tool to take down and clean would get a "pass" on this forum.
What exactly is "Mickey Mouse" about it? It does not require a special tool. one is provided if you wish to use it, but it is not required, and I've never used.
As for me, I have all but decided to trade the M&P in on a 1911, they simply feel better in my hands. I am more accurate and comfortable with that platform and I just don't think I will ever get the same feeling with a plastic gun.
Talk about "Mickey Mouse" take down
Actually it does not get a "pass", there is a long thread that addresses issues with M&P's, and many have gone back to the G-lock.
As for the XD, well, you can read multiple threads about them also.
Bob
BigBuckeye
05-29-11, 09:19
How do you take it down without the tool?
BigBuckeye
05-29-11, 09:21
I like the grip safety on the XDM, I think it is more comfortable and the before mentioned take down.
Grip safeties are not necessary. I know of at least one XDm grip safety that has broken and rendered the weapon inoperable:
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xd-m-discussion-room-xd-m/113227-broken-xdm-40-grip-safety.html
It is not necessary and, at least to my mind and apparently the minds of countless industry professionals and subject matter experts, it is simply a liability.
The bore axis is high as hell, and although they're easy to replace I shouldn't have to worry about my striker retaining pin walking or breaking.
And like everything Springfield, theyre overpriced.
I see no reason whatsoever to opt for any XD/m variant over an M&P or Glock.
How do you take it down without the tool?
Just like a G-lock, pull the trigger.
Bob
BigBuckeye
05-29-11, 21:25
Just like a G-lock, pull the trigger.
Bob
I tried this, it didn't work... Is there a more detailed instruction for this somewhere?
I tried this, it didn't work... Is there a more detailed instruction for this somewhere?
Got me,
Lock the slide to the rear, clear the gun.
Rotate take down lever down
release slide lock, slide moves forward
pull trigger, slide continues forward and off the frame
I cant remember the last time I used the tool to field strip the gun
Bob
My vote is for the M&P9. I have a 1911 and tried everything under the sun to simulate the grip angle and feel of my 1911. While everyone I shoot with runs a glock, it just didn't feel comfortable in my hand. The Gen3 got better and now Glock is following the pack towards interchangeable back straps - Gen4.
The M&P has a beavertailish frame, side TS and the Apex trigger is silky smooth. I shot a friends Pro model the other day and have to say, the 5" may be my next purchase for competition.
Good luck on your search!
BigBuckeye--R Moran is 100% correct, you do NOT need to use the take down tool on the M&P. Your "mickey mouse" comment shows a complete lack of understanding of why the M&P has a take down tool--it is because LE agencies ASKED for one in order to reduce the number of ND's occurring with the Glock style take down requiring a trigger pull to disassemble.
I am surprised that any modern firearm that requires a special tool to take down and clean
They do not, and that comment alone = perhaps you should reconsider offering opinions on M&Ps and handguns in general here. XD superior to M&P indeed....:rolleyes:
Im a die hard 1911 fan, and believe it or not, my favorite 1911 is a 5" Kimber TLE/RL:
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p313/madcatjoe/2011-05-16_17-45-20_991.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p313/madcatjoe/2011-05-16_17-47-36_155.jpg
its reliable, easy to carry, accurate, and just feels right. As you can see, its been through alot, and it keeps on going. I know that Kimber has a bad rap around these parts, but mine has been a dream. HOWEVER, if I had to do it again, I would probably buy a similar pistol from Wilson Combat, just because I know that they are next to flawless.
now, I have just recently moved on from carrying 1911s all the time (I still do sometimes) and my new carry piece is a Springfield XD .45 Compact. It feels somewhat like a 1911, and its extremely accurate and reliable. They also have a not so good rap around these parts (go figure) but once again, 100% flawless for me. So from one 1911 guy to another, I vote Springfield XD.
BigBuckeye
05-30-11, 15:06
They do not, and that comment alone = perhaps you should reconsider offering opinions on M&Ps and handguns in general here. XD superior to M&P indeed....:rolleyes:
Awwww...did I hurt your little feelings?
I own both, I like the XDM better.....my opinion.....deal with it...
Pulling the trigger to release the slide has not worked for me.....I will try it again, if it works, great and I will retract my "Mickey Mouse" statement. Regardless, you do not need to pull the trigger to take down the XDM.
I own both, I like the XDM better.....my opinion.....deal with it...
Says the guy who can't get an M&P taken down without a tool. What ever, keep giving out that helpful advice. :rolleyes:
I've been packing a 1911 for 30 years and carry a Springfield Pro, however I've recently taken quite a shine to the M&P pistols, specially with the APEX DCAEK & RAM installed.
My preferred .45 is the HK USP in variant 9 with a match trigger. I just never could warm up to the HK45 with the spiderman grip and only a 10 round mag.
How do you take it down without the tool?
The wonders of youtube:
one handed, no tool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0ljypy3BOg&feature=related
Note, no need to pull the trigger to release slide either.
To the OP, I have gone a similar path from 1911's to plastic service pistols as my primary ccw and home defense gun. One thought to consider: If you have a reliable and proven 1911 that you shoot well with and have a lot of rounds through it without failures, I'd at least think about the option of just staying with it. It's hard to improve on success at that level, and it may take less time, expense, and hassle to keep what you have than to convert yourself (even to a cheaper platform) at this point.
That said, if you really want a change to a plastic service pistol, I'd echo the recommendations for the M&P platform. Doc GKR has summarized its advantages, and for me it seems to point well and has a grip angle similar to that of the 1911. Many 1911 owners have noted this about the M&P. I'd also agree that the APEX tactical trigger kit is a worthy addition that will bring the trigger up to an acceptable level for someone who is accustomed to 1911 triggers.
Pistol Shooter
05-30-11, 16:26
My USP 45C has been an excellent sidearm. Extremely accurate and dead nuts reliable. Zero failures after 2500 rds. of assorted fmj and jhp ammo.
http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo220/cashbailey_photos/DSCN1261.jpg
It's easy to conceal and the cocked and locked option is similar to my 1911's.
I find the SA trigger to be pretty damn good also. :)
Shoot one if you can OP. Good luck and keep us updated on your search.
To the OP, I have gone a similar path from 1911's to plastic service pistols as my primary ccw and home defense gun. One thought to consider: If you have a reliable and proven 1911 that you shoot well with and have a lot of rounds through it without failures, I'd at least think about the option of just staying with it. It's hard to improve on success at that level, and it may take less time, expense, and hassle to keep what you have than to convert yourself (even to a cheaper platform) at this point.
That said, if you really want a change to a plastic service pistol, I'd echo the recommendations for the M&P platform. Doc GKR has summarized its advantages, and for me it seems to point well and has a grip angle similar to that of the 1911. Many 1911 owners have noted this about the M&P. I'd also agree that the APEX tactical trigger kit is a worthy addition that will bring the trigger up to an acceptable level for someone who is accustomed to 1911 triggers.
I'm not looking to replace but rather add to my options.
BigBuckeye
05-30-11, 23:22
I was able to take down the M&P by pulling the trigger tonight, I feel much better about that...
acaixguard
06-02-11, 20:29
[editing cause replie to wrong thread]
You might be interested in the Sig X-Five line. I've had the tactical model for a few weeks now and I'm loving it! I only have 300rds through it but for what it's worth…
The sa trigger is AMAZING! Smooth and light with little walk.
The accuracy continues to amaze me every time I shoot it.
My only complaint. Due to my small hands and the large safety it is difficult for me to release the slide one handed. Other than that I'm loving this gun.
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg804/scaled.php?server=804&filename=imagezn.jpg&res=iphone
I too, am a 1911 fan. I have owned the HK45 for about a year. I like it and can see why people see it as an alternative to the 1911.
However, my new winner in this transition from 1911 to other gun category IMHO is the KH P30 LS in 40. It feels the most like the 1911 in grip size and frame size. The HK45 is a little bulkier. The P30 LS feels MOST like a 1911, it has that awesome HK grip that is easy to love.
The long slide makes the gun handle like a full sized 1911 and controls recoil very nicely. The 40 is closer to the 45 for the "Big Bullet Guys".
And it has bi manual safety controls for Cocked and Locked. Also, the P30 LS, does not have the issue of dropping the safety and going into "de-cocked". De-cocker is a separate push button on rear of slide. It comes in 9mm and 40.
This gun is new to me, but after several trips to the range I am convinced its closest to a 1911. Note: there is only one 1911 trigger, But everyone knows that cold hard fact:D
Every 1911 guy should go give one of these a run, they are quite impressive.
MountainRaven
06-03-11, 20:33
I was converted by the Glock 34. Tried the SiG P220 and the HK45 and was nonplussed. Gave the M&P a try in both .45 and 9mm and went back to the 34.
All advice that applies to other Glock pistols applies to the 34, as well, although the pistol ships with extended magazine release and slide lock.
Will Brink,
Both the XDm pistols and S&W M&P's both have had teething issues. The M&P out the box is very slick (there is an awesome after market texture enhancements out there, some you can do at home) and the trigger guard needs to be recessed a bit near the grip; If your a 1911 shooter your discomfort comes from the middle finger knuckle (Left or right hand). The police departments who have gone to the XD line of pistols had a choice to stay with Glock or go to the M&P (bean counters opinion/ civil liability). I own both pistol and wouldn't give neither of them up. A tool in the grip of an M&P is given for a reason, and until your fully familiar with that plat form... Use It.
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